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Why not? It's even a new kit to sell.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Actually an appropriately priced transport would do wonders for the army size.

I often see Eldar armies on the table and I'm like "Dying race my ASS!" with how many tanks they can field!

That being said, it's not much different to how every single GK excursion is apparently being led by Draigo.

 vipoid wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Actually an appropriately priced transport would do wonders for the army size.

I often see Eldar armies on the table and I'm like "Dying race my ASS!" with how many tanks they can field!

That being said, it's not much different to how every single GK excursion is apparently being led by Draigo.

*mumble mumble* Warp *mumble mumble* Relativity * mumble mumble*

vipoid wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Actually an appropriately priced transport would do wonders for the army size.

I often see Eldar armies on the table and I'm like "Dying race my ASS!" with how many tanks they can field!

That being said, it's not much different to how every single GK excursion is apparently being led by Draigo.

dementedwombat wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Actually an appropriately priced transport would do wonders for the army size.

I often see Eldar armies on the table and I'm like "Dying race my ASS!" with how many tanks they can field!

That being said, it's not much different to how every single GK excursion is apparently being led by Draigo.

*mumble mumble* Warp *mumble mumble* Relativity * mumble mumble*

Yeah the GK don't hit the spot for me either.

Honestly, I think Sisters are presented most fluffily in my area, as there are two of us that play them, making them relatively unimportant except in large-scale conflicts, where their superior faith and numbers relative to other power-armored foes are a significant factor.

I.E., they do well with IoM allies in apocalypse games, providing an unusually tough core of well-armed troops in large numbers.

Reduce the shield blast to 6" instead of 60"

Revert the Serpent to the rules it used for the older editions. Done. Sure the points are higher, but so were everything's. The shield gun concept is just pants-on-head.


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 TWilkins wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


If Land Raiders could do what WS did, probably. I imagine it would get boring after a while though. But Eldar players never seem to get sick of the WS...

Don't tar us all with the same brush!!! I don't like wave serpents because of this either!!!
And also, Eldar can't have a 180 point dedicated transport. Most armies have more than one to choose from and Eldar only have one as it is. Plus the Wave Serpent is already one of the most expensive ones out there, if it was 180 points then it would be very difficult to take it.
And the Falcon cannot transport Wraithguard/Wraithblades. If a WS was 180 points base, then to transport a squad of wraithguard would cost almost 350 points. Which isn't really affordable in a 2000 point list let alone a 1500 or less.
A nerf is more appropriate than raising the point cost, unless GW provide us with a new Dedicated transport, ideally some sort of assault vehicle as we're the only army who needs one but doesn't have one as far as I know. (Which we could get in the Harlequin supplement which is rumoured to be arriving?)

I'm in the same boat! I hate being lumped into this category when I have one freaking Wave Serpent and a Falcon. I think the shield gun is stupid.

the 'laser lock' rule should twin link all the models weapons if ALL the scatter laser shots hit.
then take 'ignores cover' off the serpent shield and its golden.
might even warrant a 10pt drop after that

SirDonlad wrote:
the 'laser lock' rule should twin link all the models weapons if ALL the scatter laser shots hit.
then take 'ignores cover' off the serpent shield and its golden.
might even warrant a 10pt drop after that

Mmmm no, still not golden; it still is pretty much free AA and a 60 inch range. I would also say ALL of the scatter laser shots having to hit is a bit much, just a majority should do.

If you use the shield as a weapon you burn it and can no longer use it for the remainder of the game.

yeah, i know. but its got to have something going for it.

i get the option of Triaros with a taghmata list which ends up around the same points as a wave serpent with scatter laser, shuriken cannon and holo fields.
but i get d6 automatic hits on any unit i tank shock and a free haywire hit on vehicles i ram and it has a flare sheild and blessed autosimulacra.

yeah, i totally agree the 60" range is ludicrous (my mechanicum 'anbaric claw' only discharges 1" when triggered) but removing 'ignores cover' kinda blunts its AA teeth i recon. my storm eagle got taken out by one from 36" away once but i don't want it to be nerfed completely

i had a chat with a mate and we thought it might be cool to have a rule for the shield system overloading if it takes too many strikes a turn or gets hit by a d-weapon.

Either remove its ability to shoot, or shooting it removes the shield.

I'd be behind either of those.

SirDonlad wrote:
yeah, i know. but its got to have something going for it.

i get the option of Triaros with a taghmata list which ends up around the same points as a wave serpent with scatter laser, shuriken cannon and holo fields.
but i get d6 automatic hits on any unit i tank shock and a free haywire hit on vehicles i ram and it has a flare sheild and blessed autosimulacra.

yeah, i totally agree the 60" range is ludicrous (my mechanicum 'anbaric claw' only discharges 1" when triggered) but removing 'ignores cover' kinda blunts its AA teeth i recon. my storm eagle got taken out by one from 36" away once but i don't want it to be nerfed completely

i had a chat with a mate and we thought it might be cool to have a rule for the shield system overloading if it takes too many strikes a turn or gets hit by a d-weapon.

However, the Triaros has no save (i.e. no Jink), must get into very close range for it's primary weapon (the shock ram) to work, and the Mauler Bolt Cannon and Volkite Sentinels do not make for spectacular displays of firepower (though by no means bad).

Wave Serpents are fine....you hear complaints of low caliber players. You can assault them and kill them with almost anything. People who complain are bad and have 1850 lists with like two anti tank guns.

Centurions have split fire...re rollable...grav cannons las cannons or missile launchers....and powerfists in close combat....a 2+ save and invul save and tank hunter. If you want to complain complain about that.

Necrons also have very comperable shooting with AV13...

Its not an issue people are just bad at this game.


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 Lobukia wrote:
Either remove its ability to shoot, or shooting it removes the shield.

I'd be behind either of those.

Thats currently how it works rofl

 Smitty0305 wrote:
Wave Serpents are fine....you hear complaints of low caliber players. You can assault them and kill them with almost anything. People who complain are bad and have 1850 lists with like two anti tank guns.

Centurions have split fire...re rollable...grav cannons las cannons or missile launchers....and powerfists in close combat....a 2+ save and invul save. If you want to complain complain about that.

Necrons also have very comperable shooting with AV13...

Its not an issue people are just bad at this game.


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 Lobukia wrote:
Either remove its ability to shoot, or shooting it removes the shield.

I'd be behind either of those.

Thats currently how it works rofl

Cents don't have invulnerables, they have to buy split fire, grav, lascannons, they do not come stock with powerfists nor tank hunter. If you are going to make claims it helps when they are true if you want to be taken seriosuly. They also cost 60 ponts a model base, so they are literally 2 models per serpent. I mean seriously, where did you pull this from?

Also your signature isn't very... helpful to your cause

28-9-1 In Tournaments As Eldar.
Maintained a 75% Win Ratio As Eldar in 5th Edition GT's.

 Smitty0305 wrote:
Wave Serpents are fine....you hear complaints of low caliber players. You can assault them and kill them with almost anything. People who complain are bad and have 1850 lists with like two anti tank guns.

Centurions have split fire...re rollable...grav cannons las cannons or missile launchers....and powerfists in close combat....a 2+ save and invul save and tank hunter. If you want to complain complain about that.

Necrons also have very comperable shooting with AV13...

Its not an issue people are just bad at this game.

How am I going to assault something with a 48" move range? I could probably catch one with a storm raven on turn 3 and have some troops jump out then, but that's a rather late assault involving a minimum of 340 points to destroy a 145 point transport. The charge after deepstriking BA formation could catch a WS, A wraithknight could prossibly do a number on it, but then you've got eldar fighting eldar, so who cares, just bring your own serpents. Daemon princes will get smashed from being in glide mode for a turn minimum before charging it. I can't bring anything else to mind that could realistically catch a Serpent and assault it.

The only thing that can shoot it down with reliability is a Sicaran (many places don't allow FW) or Riptide/Broadsides/Seeker Missiles with Marker light assistance.

I think you'll find that WS are complained about by the remaining handful of non-eldar competative players too, and if you think for even a second that they're not far, far too good for their pots cost, then you're deluding yourself.

Quickjager already noted that virtually all your claims about cents were wrong, so I'll not re-hash them, but just reinforce that they are strong, but no-where near as broken as Serpents are.

 Quickjager wrote:
Also your signature isn't very... helpful to your cause

28-9-1 In Tournaments As Eldar.
Maintained a 75% Win Ratio As Eldar in 5th Edition GT's.

Eldar didn't have super serpents in 5th edition, and were by all rights garbage compared to MSU Marines and Guard.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Also your signature isn't very... helpful to your cause

28-9-1 In Tournaments As Eldar.
Maintained a 75% Win Ratio As Eldar in 5th Edition GT's.

Eldar didn't have super serpents in 5th edition, and were by all rights garbage compared to MSU Marines and Guard.

Fair enough.

The shield is described as a point-defense weapon, so make it such.

6" or 12" range solves the entire WS problem all on its own. making it a good transport as it can support the squads up close, but not a good ranged shooting platform as it has to get very close.

One use only on serpent shield as a weapon, if used shield loses defensive buffs, drop to 48" range from 60".

However nerfing the ws is irrelevant when the rest of the codex is powerful enough to ignore the change anyway. If it was gone tomorrow their would be some tears but right behind it would be new flavor of the month spams. The eldar codex needs a whole rewriting whole pages worth of things would need to be changed to mitigate their strength in any considerable way. And even then at this point Its a bit too little too late. They've already had their fun in the sun.

What I would do with eldar is price jack everything, relics units, vehicles, mc's, hq's the shebang and start reworking their vehicles an unit rules. Such as say remove shrunken catapults entirely on infantry, move Jetbikes to fast, make the wraithknight a Lord or war. Really break their army down and rebuild it fundamentally from its bare roots. Make the army fee more elite and make their biggest and fanciest toys feel actually special instead of in every army this side of the equator. And get rid if obsolete items as independent options; like making vypers and upgrade the Jetbike teams as an add-on like marine attack bikes.

I'd also get rid of some other units due to their volatile nature to the slots they inhabit like the spiritseer as an example.

The eldar as a codex don't need a fix here and there they need hardcore open heart surgery

 Smitty0305 wrote:
Wave Serpents are fine....you hear complaints of low caliber players. You can assault them and kill them with almost anything. People who complain are bad and have 1850 lists with like two anti tank guns.

Or from eveyone except "Super awesome players" like you must be - there are always a few people who defndd the indefensible - usally so they can win and claim they are skilled when the opposite is true

How strange that you are Eldar player and think Cheese Serpents are fine - who would have thought it............ sheesh you give other Eldar players like me a bad name

"The only thing that match's the Eldar's firepower, is their arrogance".

or are you just striving for this?

I would be in favour of changing it's shooting ability to allowing the shield to expand to a 6"bubble around the WS which would grant a 5+ invul to units within the bubble.

The shield would then be down until the next turn as happens now.

I think this makes more sense as it is a 'shield' afterall. It would also encourage it's use as a transport more because you could disembark units and give them some protection when they get out and stand there.

So 3-4 WS shielding 3-4 WK with t8 6w and perma +5inv and unlike the +4 landing platform the formation would be very dynamic int he movment phase or having 2-3 in every DE army to spread +5inv to the whole army..

The biggest problem with the Wave Serpent is that you can take 6+ in a standard CAD + Allied format.

Interestingly enough, the biggest weakness of Orks is that you can't take 20 units of boyz with truks in a standard CAD + Allied format.

In other words, the real problem right now is the very reductive meta focused on CAD+Allied which favors a few select builds: IK (yes, they win more than Eldar), WS Spam, Broadside Spam, Screamerstar, CenturionStar, Bakery, AV13 spam and then a few odd things.

Because single CAD + Allied is so limited (at 1850 points), there can only be so many good builds and anything that's free from the CAD shackles, like Wave Serpents, formations, alternate detachments or Imperial Knights (effectively multiple LoW in a single army) will create a problem.

Of course some of them don't, because they're not good enough formations or alternate detachments, but some of them clearly hurt.

I don't think Wave Serpents can dominate in unbound and I would be surprised if the screamerstar wouldn't be surrounded by counters in that environment.


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 ionusx wrote:
One use only on serpent shield as a weapon, if used shield loses defensive buffs, drop to 48" range from 60".

However nerfing the ws is irrelevant when the rest of the codex is powerful enough to ignore the change anyway. If it was gone tomorrow their would be some tears but right behind it would be new flavor of the month spams. The eldar codex needs a whole rewriting whole pages worth of things would need to be changed to mitigate their strength in any considerable way. And even then at this point Its a bit too little too late. They've already had their fun in the sun.

What I would do with eldar is price jack everything, relics units, vehicles, mc's, hq's the shebang and start reworking their vehicles an unit rules. Such as say remove shrunken catapults entirely on infantry, move Jetbikes to fast, make the wraithknight a Lord or war. Really break their army down and rebuild it fundamentally from its bare roots. Make the army fee more elite and make their biggest and fanciest toys feel actually special instead of in every army this side of the equator. And get rid if obsolete items as independent options; like making vypers and upgrade the Jetbike teams as an add-on like marine attack bikes.

I'd also get rid of some other units due to their volatile nature to the slots they inhabit like the spiritseer as an example.

The eldar as a codex don't need a fix here and there they need hardcore open heart surgery

Is there a traumatic event in your childhood involving Eldar that you would like to share with us ?

Here, have a blanket and warm coco, you're safe now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Smitty0305 wrote:
Wave Serpents are fine....you hear complaints of low caliber players. You can assault them and kill them with almost anything. People who complain are bad and have 1850 lists with like two anti tank guns.

Centurions have split fire...re rollable...grav cannons las cannons or missile launchers....and powerfists in close combat....a 2+ save and invul save and tank hunter. If you want to complain complain about that.

Necrons also have very comperable shooting with AV13...

Its not an issue people are just bad at this game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lobukia wrote:
Either remove its ability to shoot, or shooting it removes the shield.

I'd be behind either of those.

Thats currently how it works rofl

Indeed, if Eldar have trouble getting more than 54% win rate, i.e. the same as Tau, Necron and Daemons, then maybe - just maybe - Wave Serpents don't just auto win the game even if you leave them in reserve and let your little sister play.

Makumba wrote:
So 3-4 WS shielding 3-4 WK with t8 6w and perma +5inv and unlike the +4 landing platform the formation would be very dynamic int he movment phase or having 2-3 in every DE army to spread +5inv to the whole army..

Well maybe the rule could be that it provides 'infantry' with a 5+ invul within 6"? It was just an idea that popped into my head as i was reading the thread. I don't think it has to be a weapon.

Bharring wrote:
The Wave Serpent is definitely better than a Rhino, but I'd love to have a Rhino to move my Aspects on occasion.

But is it definitely better than a pod ?
Would you not rather put your fire dragons in pods instead of risking 255 points every time by bringing a Wave Serpent into easy charge range and stranding Fire Dragons where they're guaranteed to die ?

Rhinos are nothing to sniff at, for 140 points you've got four Rhinos, that's 12 HB shots and 12 AV11 HP, four different targets, four explodes results.
With our Aspect Warriors so terrible without transports (and with transports arguably), those wouldn't be a bad thing.
They're excellent LOS blockers that move 18 inches a turn and can benefit from terrain cover saves much easier than Wave Serpents.

Summary is, people whine way too much about Wave Serpents, can't you take one year of two of Eldar dominance in one specific army format (CAD+Allies) like we've taken years of IoM abuse ?

Volcano Cannon. That or a Heirophant

morgoth wrote:

But is it definitely better than a pod ?

I think the roles are too different for a straight-up comparison.

morgoth wrote:

Would you not rather put your fire dragons in pods instead of risking 255 points every time by bringing a Wave Serpent into easy charge range and stranding Fire Dragons where they're guaranteed to die ?

Might it not depend on what you're facing, how you want to use them etc.?

Some armies are much better at castling up and/or defending their vehicles from drop pods than others. Or, you may want to use them against a vehicle that is coming in from reserve. Or, hell, you might just want to buy a massive tank that doesn't take up a FoC slot as an extra for your unit.

morgoth wrote:

Rhinos are nothing to sniff at, for 140 points you've got four Rhinos, that's 12 HB shots and 12 AV11 HP, four different targets, four explodes results.

Rhinos don't come with Heavy Bolters, nor can they buy them.

Also, 140pts is a pretty meaningless figure. You've just spent 140pts for 4 storm bolters. What about the passengers?

...can't you take one year of two of Eldar dominance in one specific army format (CAD+Allies) like we've taken years of IoM abuse ?

Aaaand this is why we can't have nice things.

I might be getting my first wave serpent if I get this ebay deal tonight...

Please don't hate..

But an assault vehicle would be nice for getting those banshees into cc... hmmmm

morgoth wrote:

Rhinos are nothing to sniff at, for 140 points you've got four Rhinos, that's 12 HB shots and 12 AV11 HP, four different targets, four explodes results.
With our Aspect Warriors so terrible without transports (and with transports arguably), those wouldn't be a bad thing.
They're excellent LOS blockers that move 18 inches a turn and can benefit from terrain cover saves much easier than Wave Serpents.

Summary is, people whine way too much about Wave Serpents, can't you take one year of two of Eldar dominance in one specific army format (CAD+Allies) like we've taken years of IoM abuse ?

rhinos don't have heavy bolters. it is easier to get cover when to get it all you have to do is move, and even if you somehow need actual terrain being able to fly over stuff makes it easier to position well. As domination goes. RT=eldar OP. 2ed=eldar OP. 3ed=eldar OP . 3.5/4ed=eldar OP. 5ed eldar=good till codex GK. 6th ed=eldar OP. 7th=eldar OP.

Sure looks like dominance of IoM armies.