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nareik wrote:
Speaking of Thousand Sons, how does the power selection work for their unit champions in 7th ed?

Do they have the Tzeentch Primaris plus one randomly generated power?

Does the random power have to be from one of the rulebook lores so they don't exceed the 50% marked power cap?

Strict reading he must generate a power from the Tzeentch Lore, so he generates one from the Lore of Tzeentch and knows the Tzeentch primaris from the Chaos Psychic Focus rule. Common sense you would think he'd be able to generate powers from somewhere else and know the Tzeentch Primaris from Chaos Psychic Focus, but it doesn't look like that's the case.

SGTPozy wrote:

 Pyeatt wrote:
Why? Why do you need a new codex? Oh I get it... because CSM doesn't have Wave Serpents.

100% agree with you there!

The days of powerful Serpents are counted.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Pyeatt wrote:
My buddy runs them in bulk, and they're actually pretty brutal.. That AP3.. Only way to get close is by charging in termies and making all those saves.

1 Vindicator or a LandRaider would annihilate the Thousand Sons. Really, anything AP 3 will annihilate them; they're still just in Power Armor.

4++ helps.

CSM are really overdue for a good book, they've had two mediocre books since their last top-tier book.

Still, most armies don't really fear Thousand Sons. Other than 1 shot at 24", they're not really super strong. I'd fear their psychic shenanigans more than the bolters.

knowing non eldar players luck, the harlequin books is going to give eldar super melee super fast dudes runing under effects of invisibility combined with rad neds.

Experiment 626 wrote:

First off, all those characters with the exception of Lucious are completely boss. Ahriman is bat-gak broken when you run him with Psy Shriek + Santic, while Typhus is just a complete b.
Our generic characters are fine, outside of both the Apostle & Warpsmith lacking the option for a bike, and jump pack/God steeds for the former.
DP's simply need a pts drop as they're currently priced as 6th ed FMC's which are nowhere near as game-dominating now.

What is the idea behind Sanctic on Ahriman? I always run go for Shriek + Biomancy because that seems like a more viable option. Obviously, Vortex of doom is a very tempting power to tripple-cast but apart from that I'd prefer Biomancy powers over Sanctic ones.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

CSM are really overdue for a good book, they've had two mediocre books since their last top-tier book.

Well DA had 3 mediocre books in a row. I be worried. Real worried.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

nareik wrote:
Speaking of Thousand Sons, how does the power selection work for their unit champions in 7th ed?

Do they have the Tzeentch Primaris plus one randomly generated power?

Does the random power have to be from one of the rulebook lores so they don't exceed the 50% marked power cap?

Strict reading he must generate a power from the Tzeentch Lore, so he generates one from the Lore of Tzeentch and knows the Tzeentch primaris from the Chaos Psychic Focus rule. Common sense you would think he'd be able to generate powers from somewhere else and know the Tzeentch Primaris from Chaos Psychic Focus, but it doesn't look like that's the case.

That seems really counter intuitive to me :S The rule for there being a 50% cap on marked powers would only apply to Mastery Level 3 and 4 Sorcerors?

Just end it all now. Just nerf CSM to the ground. Take away the cult troops, send the dino bots back to the land before time, turn csm into toothless space wolves. I can quit knowing i put up a good fight for 5 years but did not have true grit to go pro.

I still come to the army list forum to find a reason to keep playing. I proxy most of the new ia13 units. Trying to figure out if i should re invest or just quit. I still have a csm army but its mostly useless.

DaPino wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

First off, all those characters with the exception of Lucious are completely boss. Ahriman is bat-gak broken when you run him with Psy Shriek + Santic, while Typhus is just a complete b.
Our generic characters are fine, outside of both the Apostle & Warpsmith lacking the option for a bike, and jump pack/God steeds for the former.
DP's simply need a pts drop as they're currently priced as 6th ed FMC's which are nowhere near as game-dominating now.

What is the idea behind Sanctic on Ahriman? I always run go for Shriek + Biomancy because that seems like a more viable option. Obviously, Vortex of doom is a very tempting power to tripple-cast but apart from that I'd prefer Biomancy powers over Sanctic ones.

Gate mainly, but Sanctuary can be quite handy as well. Infiltrate in, triple Shriek then gate out to avoid retaliation. As mentioned, triple Vortex is an option if you've got the dice and don't mind taking a huge risk for huge reward. Bio is probably still a better bet to get the buffs, and a consolation of life leach to replenish wounds. The single roll on telepathy to fish for Invis and take Shriek if you don't get it is also the way to go IMHO.

I would contend the post by Experiment 626 though. Ahriman is the same points cost as a land raider and is missing 2 of the things that makes other casters great - Spell familiar and Access to Div (despite being the head honcho of the most powerful branch of Diviners on the imperium side of the Eldar). The apostle and warpsmith are both trash as well, even if they had the options for the toys. I'd also suggest DP's need eternal warrior back, given his points cost and abilities compared to other HQ's. Kharne is great for his points, Typhus is great, just like every other Nurgle option in the book, but Ahriman is surpassed by Huron for his trait or a generic lvl 3 sorc with spell familiar and Sigil for actual casting. That MoT hurts Ahriman due to the fact his extra special extra slot is wasted on the total trash that is the tzeentch power table. The fact that he gets to fire off witchfires, the worst type of psy power, multiple times merely makes them slightly less bad. By no means does it suddenly make them good.

Don't even get me started on the AoDG instead of Sigil.

Edit;

nareik wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

nareik wrote:
Speaking of Thousand Sons, how does the power selection work for their unit champions in 7th ed?

Do they have the Tzeentch Primaris plus one randomly generated power?

Does the random power have to be from one of the rulebook lores so they don't exceed the 50% marked power cap?

Strict reading he must generate a power from the Tzeentch Lore, so he generates one from the Lore of Tzeentch and knows the Tzeentch primaris from the Chaos Psychic Focus rule. Common sense you would think he'd be able to generate powers from somewhere else and know the Tzeentch Primaris from Chaos Psychic Focus, but it doesn't look like that's the case.

That seems really counter intuitive to me :S The rule for there being a 50% cap on marked powers would only apply to Mastery Level 3 and 4 Sorcerors?

Nah, applies to level 2's as well, since it means that you can't roll both your powers on your gods table (though why would you, none of them are as good as Bio/Tele/Maelific?)

As a side note, I'm currently sitting at a ratio of 15/1/2 for Boon/Doombolt/Breath. Yes, I am a touch bitter.

CSM players have to stop wanting to be The best again. You have a good army with loads of love from GW (equal to that of SM), yet you want more.

You have:
2 supplements.
Helbrute formations.
Cypher.
IA 13.
Other formations.

You also have another rumoured supplement on the way. Seriously, you are better off than many other armies.

I guess you mised every post, where it isnt about power level, but content?

Please explainhow to give a true EC army using this codex. I'll wait.

What I want is fluff. Give each of the legions their own supplement with some odd units like blight drones and brass scorpions rules for marked hellbrutes and tanks, etc., and I'd be happy to shell out for every one of them. It did feel like we lost things with our newest codex, but most of it was replaced when 7th came out. We can summon demons again with our extremely powerful psychers. Daemons got treated pretty well and we can bring them as allies as well. The real problem is that marines are just not enough anymore, regadless of faction. But we have cultists so we can sidestep the issue. A way to get troops down field easier would be extremely nice as well. But I think everyone wants to see the wave serpents nerfed at this point. It would definitely make me feel better about my own codex

Loads of thread about what we'd like already, but it can be summed up with Legion and Warband variation.

The rumours say

Regarding Codex Chaos Space Marines
-No Cult Marines in the Codex
-Few Rule changes
-Dataslates for Cult Marines, Terminators, Chosen ect. in White Dwarf
-One Chaos God per Issue (each with their own dataslates for Berzerker Termis, Plague Termis ect.)

Long War / Long Crusade Supplement Contains legion fluff from the last 10,000 years
Veteran of the Long War rule allows skill purchases.
Skill prices are variable with some units unable to take specific options.
Skills include fear, infiltrate, tank hunter, relentless, outflank, stubborn, preferred enemy, shred and fleet.
Feel No Pain is not available and units can take no more than three skills each.
Due for 4 Warhammer Weekly releases.

via an anonymous source on Faeit 212
The Traitor Marines coming next Year:
-Few Changes in the Codex
-Undivided Mono-Lists only (no more Chaos Marks)
-Black Legion Suppliment revised

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/01/40k-cult-chaos-marines-more-info.html
http://www.talkwargaming.com/2014/02/chaos-space-marine-rumors-2014.html
http://natfka.blogspot.no/2014/10/chaos-space-marines-codex-and-black.html

Suggesting still no Chaos Undivided, though Faeit suggests it might happen even if there's 4 releases (one per god) planned. I like dataslates, though I might be in a minority. They should obviously just roll it all into the codex, but it's similar to the old WD Index Astartes/Chapter Approved stuff without subscribing to WD. I REALLY enjoy the idea of a Legion supplement. Hopefully, they are getting rid of the "have to challenge" rule, it's clown-pants-on-head-stupid. My Cultist Champions bite more dust than dust mites.

Also, I don't think Chaos players are exactly in the game for power levels. All of the chaos players I know are absolutely huge fans of the fluff. This is why it hurts so bad that things are not represented very well by the rules. I don't think there's any army as fun to model as CSM. Conversions are fun, and the kits even give you lots of bits if you don't want to sculpt things from scratch. Also, why all the hate on challenges? We're REALLY good at them. Maybe you should make sure your champions have some decent gear instead of running the, naked? Any mark except tzeentch is going to give you a good boost in a challenge.

Basically all CSM platers want to be SM +1 as they be all like "Why don't we have drop pods/grav guns/land raider variants/ land speeders etc, yet still want their unique stuff.

As for wanting legion tactics... I get that you used to have something, but just because you see to it doesn't mean you will again. Take Tau for example, we used to be able to move and shoot with our broadsides (which also used to be S10), but will we get that back? Unlikely. No other army other than SM has a CT equivalent, so why should you?

SGTPozy wrote:Basically all CSM platers want to be SM +1 as they be all like "Why don't we have drop pods/grav guns/land raider variants/ land speeders etc, yet still want their unique stuff.

As for wanting legion tactics... I get that you used to have something, but just because you see to it doesn't mean you will again. Take Tau for example, we used to be able to move and shoot with our broadsides (which also used to be S10), but will we get that back? Unlikely. No other army other than SM has a CT equivalent, so why should you?

nosferatu1001 wrote:I guess you mised every post, where it isnt about power level, but content?

Please explainhow to give a true EC army using this codex. I'll wait.

I notice you still havent considered this or given an answer that shows some thought. Just another put down. .

CSM legions are every bit as important as SM chapters, so something more equitable would be helpful.

Youre adding nothing to the thread

I side with expecting disappointment. Its why I switched to playing 30k. They can keep everything the way it is and I might play CSM as long as they include actual Legion rules for each Legion, not just the boring four they always cover. Otherwise I will keep playing 30k.

Chaos drop pods is a requirement. I could care less about all the goofy dinosaurs and slowed crap like that. My Night Lords use drop pods in the fluff, theres no reason they shouldn't have them in the game. The things get scavenged off the battle field all the time. Dreadclaws are not a substitute.

Best thing you can do as a chaos player unless you're using ia13 is use one of the marine books. The imperial marine books dont cover all the legions but it covers enough

I would like it if we could get Legion Tactics and for the love of the False Emperor new sculpts and kits that come with thing things we actually need.

I've repeatedly considered getting into CSM recently, and I just can't bring myself to do it. It's less to do with the power level and more to do with the poor representation of the legions I'm interested in.

It's not that chaos players want to be marines + 1 or super powerful or whatever. They just want to be able to represent their faction of choice well. As is, many of their options feel like punishments.

What to play a Khorn army? Hope you like land raiders because that's your only assault transport. Want to be good in combat? Ha! Too bad! Meanwhile, space wolves and blood angels both do assault-based marines pretty well, and you'd probably be able to represent your Khorn army better with those rules.

Want to play Thousand Sons? I sure do. But your wizard marines, despite originally being dedicated to one of the psychic disciplines in the main book are now only able to take tzeentch powers, which are all terrible. Also, your aspiring sorcerer from a legion that doesn't like close combat has to accept challenges left and right rather than letting his haunted armor buddies take the hits. Also, if he wins the challenge, he mutates despite that going against the whole point of Ahriman's rubric.

Want to play non-1k sons tzeentch? Sure! You'll be super well represented by the option to pay for a 6+ invul save. Meanwhile, grey knights do the all-psyker-army thing much better.

Want to play Nurgle? Well.... you actually kind of can. Nurgle is solid right now.

Want to play Slaanesh? Noise marines are cool, but a very niche interpretation of Slaanesh. No options for perfectionist swordsmen. No combat drugs. Just really noisy guns. Slaanesh isn't terrible in my opinion, but not terribly well represented either.

Want to play Alpha Legion? You can represent their sneakyness with... Um... A randomly-generated warlord trait? No worries. You can lock that trait in by taking a special character from a different faction! Want scout/infiltrate? Elite human operatives? That fancy tech that you stole blueprints for from the mechanicus? Maybe you should just use loyalist marine rules.

I'd gladly see nurgle (the only upper-tier chaos god right now) and hell chickens get toned down heavily if it meant Thousand Sons and Alpha Legion being represented. :(

Wyldhunt wrote:
I've repeatedly considered getting into CSM recently, and I just can't bring myself to do it. It's less to do with the power level and more to do with the poor representation of the legions I'm interested in.

It's not that chaos players want to be marines + 1 or super powerful or whatever. They just want to be able to represent their faction of choice well. As is, many of their options feel like punishments.

What to play a Khorn army? Hope you like land raiders because that's your only assault transport. Want to be good in combat? Ha! Too bad! Meanwhile, space wolves and blood angels both do assault-based marines pretty well, and you'd probably be able to represent your Khorn army better with those rules.

Want to play Thousand Sons? I sure do. But your wizard marines, despite originally being dedicated to one of the psychic disciplines in the main book are now only able to take tzeentch powers, which are all terrible. Also, your aspiring sorcerer from a legion that doesn't like close combat has to accept challenges left and right rather than letting his haunted armor buddies take the hits. Also, if he wins the challenge, he mutates despite that going against the whole point of Ahriman's rubric.

Want to play non-1k sons tzeentch? Sure! You'll be super well represented by the option to pay for a 6+ invul save. Meanwhile, grey knights do the all-psyker-army thing much better.

Want to play Nurgle? Well.... you actually kind of can. Nurgle is solid right now.

Want to play Slaanesh? Noise marines are cool, but a very niche interpretation of Slaanesh. No options for perfectionist swordsmen. No combat drugs. Just really noisy guns. Slaanesh isn't terrible in my opinion, but not terribly well represented either.

Want to play Alpha Legion? You can represent their sneakyness with... Um... A randomly-generated warlord trait? No worries. You can lock that trait in by taking a special character from a different faction! Want scout/infiltrate? Elite human operatives? That fancy tech that you stole blueprints for from the mechanicus? Maybe you should just use loyalist marine rules.

I'd gladly see nurgle (the only upper-tier chaos god right now) and hell chickens get toned down heavily if it meant Thousand Sons and Alpha Legion being represented. :(

IA13 has done a better job of this with the vehicle upgrades.

Quick Guide to the Legions:

Black Legion: Why are you asking me the question? Go away.

Emperor's Children: You may not have anything cool like the 30k Phoenix Terminators but in-character you've still got the option to run elite/egomaniacal swordsmen with Chosen and Terminators with the Mark of Slaanesh. Arm your characters for challenges and play for speed over durability. Slaaneshi Daemon Allies recommended.

Iron Warriors: You're sort of screwed on armour. Maximize Heavy Support, take heavy weapon tactical CSM, and ally in Renegades or take FW units for more artillery. If you have the option to do two CAD for more Heavy Support do it, and make sure you're led by a Warpsmith. Avoid fast or assault-oriented units unless absolutely necessary.

Night Lords: Your chief weapons are surprise and fear. Surprise, fear, and ruthless efficiency. Anything that gets you up in the enemy's face quickly is to be used and abused; you want Raptors, Warp Talons, you want to go to Forge World for Drop Pods and Storm Eagles, and you want to make sure to have a Telepathy Sorcerer for anything Ld-related you can pull out of your hat. The more enemies you cut down in Sweeping Advance, the better; avoid Terminators and infantry Heavy weapons.

World Eaters: See that? Punch it. Pretend you're playing Space Wolves, your job is to cover the field in bodies that will clean up in assault and run across the table as fast as you can. Speed is good, bodies are better, make sure you have big threats (Land Raiders, Decimator Engines) to keep the enemy distracted and let your swarm get to where it's going unmolested. Transports are optional, Terminators are recommended. Khorne Daemon Allies a must.

Death Guard: This is the armoured cavalry build. Your folks are slow but tough, they need their Rhinos to get where they're going. Make sure you can absorb fire as well as kill things when you get there; Bikes and Raptors aren't all that in-character, Havocs, Terminators, and anything with transport capacity are. Nurgle Daemon Allies cool, if not essential.

Thousand Sons: Your soldiers are powerful but few. Rhinos to get them where they're going are useful. Make sure you have more Mastery Levels than the other guy, bring Tzeentch Daemons and start a miniature Daemon Factory in the backfield. Have the dice to Shriek down important targets. Always remember the summon-spam Legacy of Ruin, a four-hull-point Land Raider or five-hull-point Spartan granting psychic rerolls in a bubble anchoring your line? Fantastic.

Word Bearers: Your Chaos Marines are the leaders. Make sure you have lots of Cultists, Summoning, Daemons, and Renegade Guard Allies for them to lead. Don't take any regular CSM at all, your Troops selection should be entirely Cultists. Be sure to have the Daemon Allies and enough Mastery Levels to summon more.

Alpha Legion: Fight them sideways. They're expecting power armour when you tell them you're bringing CSM? Bring none at all, use Cultists and a FMC to lead them. They bring a Culexis expecting Summoning? Bring guns. Use Allies to bring stuff that's not expected, use Deep Strike to get places that aren't expected, Outflank if you can find a way. Don't make a battle plan, figure out theirs and futz with it. (This one is playstyle more than what you pick, but the Alpha Legion were never one for traditional or static strategies)

You may not have a lot of special rules in the Codex for a given Legion, but you have a lot of ways to fake it (it's sort of like trying to run a specific Craftworld with Eldar!)

AnamanderRake- I agree with everything as a sub par way of doing it and its about the only real choice a chaos player wanting to actually use his codex can do. My one exception is your Night Lord comment seeing as the Night Lords even in the 40k time period as far as I know have the only named legion wide Terminator unit. Having them Deepstrike in is pretty scary right?

I don't think I'd prepare for anything, really. Even if the rumors do pan out (who knows if they will, especially with all the Fantasy rumors for 2015) there's literally no way of knowing what the next codex will bring. Maybe it'll be as bare bones as the Grey Knights? Maybe it'll be as diverse and effective as Space Marines or Daemons? Maybe it'll be some ludicrously powerful book like Tau or Eldar? I'd just continue business as usual until we start seeing pictures leaked.

 Brother SRM wrote:
I don't think I'd prepare for anything, really. Even if the rumors do pan out (who knows if they will, especially with all the Fantasy rumors for 2015) there's literally no way of knowing what the next codex will bring. Maybe it'll be as bare bones as the Grey Knights? Maybe it'll be as diverse and effective as Space Marines or Daemons? Maybe it'll be some ludicrously powerful book like Tau or Eldar? I'd just continue business as usual until we start seeing pictures leaked.

The way the pattern is going they're going to strip all the excess options out and then give them back to us slowly as formations/detachments in campaign books.

If it starts looking a lot more like that imperial armor book then i have no issues.

Chances are a lot of the same. just buy our book

If a new CSM Codex comes out, Im not buying it unless they roll all our artifacts from the 2 supplements we have into the core codex (Which is actually a rumor im hearing, and hoping to GOD is true)

there should be no reason we are buying 50$ Supplements for Chaos Artifacts we require to make previous units more "Viable" (Daemon Heart anyone?) Imagine a Juggernaught Chaos Lord with the Axe of Blind Fury, with the Daemon Heart. That would be freaking sweet all considering the jibberish a generic clone Master Space Marines get with that debotched 4W Chapter Master base. (Nice going GW, kick the "Bad guys lore wise" and their playerbase in the nuts)

I don't expect there to be a new csm codex any time soon, at least not until the other armies are brought up to speed as well.

I think that the community gets too focused on how good one army is compared to another. Sure winning is fun, but it's not always the point. If I'm gonna play, screw being competitive, I'm going all in with the most fluffed out army on earth. If I want Mark of Khorne on everything for the sake of fun, so be it.

And if you don't like your army that much, ebay the sucker and use the money to buy a new collection.

I would, however, like to see more supplements for chaos. Especially one for the Iron Warriors, (yes that is the paint scheme for my army). They could have so many cool fortifications!

Anyway, I just wish that people would learn to stop complaining about how nerfed their army got, or how they lost out on something, and just play the stupid game.

I've been hearing that if you want to play a khorne based army, you're best bet is to just play CSM "counts as" Blood angels.

 sub-zero wrote:
I've been hearing that if you want to play a khorne based army, you're best bet is to just play CSM "counts as" Blood angels.

...Sort...of? You lose cheap bodies, CCWs in Troops, WS5 'Zerkers (admittedly this doesn't matter a lot), Daemon Allies, any of the cool CC vehicles, and Daemon Princes in trade for Psykers, Jump Packs, and Death Company. They play differently, I wouldn't say one works better than the other (though Codex-only Blood Angels do work better, CSM require IA13 and/or Daemons to function these days)

nareik wrote:
Speaking of Thousand Sons, how does the power selection work for their unit champions in 7th ed?

Do they have the Tzeentch Primaris plus one randomly generated power?

Does the random power have to be from one of the rulebook lores so they don't exceed the 50% marked power cap?

They have to roll there one on the Tzeentch list. The rule says that a psyched must roll at least one on there marked table, and may roll p to half. The primarius isn't a rolled spell so it doesn't count towards the 50% rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 sub-zero wrote:
I've been hearing that if you want to play a khorne based army, you're best bet is to just play CSM "counts as" Blood angels.

One of the big issues with comparing them is you almost have to take them in an assault vehicle to make them worth it, and for CSM that means LR (without IA:13) and sitting a round after departing from a Rhino causes a lot of casualties as they will attack attention and get shouted up.