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 Smitty0305 wrote:


I think your math on to hit chance is wrong.

Can you point out where?

I also think that 5 models under a large blast is on the low side.

Having run Leman Russ tanks and other various Large Blast wielding units over four or five editions now, unless you catch a unit Deep Striking, or having rolled very low for consolidation or something, you won't hit a huge number against a half-way competent opponent that has dealt with large blast weapons before. If they are very much aware of the battlecannon, often you won't hit more than 3 even with a direct hit. I find 4 is a much more realistic average, that's about what I normally get with large blasts, but I bumped it to 5 just to be on the safe side. Averaging 7-10 hits is lucky, often you're never presented with that many, and often when you are you either may not have a shot to the unit or can't place the template to hit that many due to LoS issues (e.g. they may all be clumped up, but you can only see the guy on the edge because the rest are behind their wrecked transport).

The number of models left also makes a huge difference. If there's only 4 models left in a unit, the Wave Serpent's average damage output isn't affected, the number of models has no effect on the Wave Serpent's hit rate, while the Battlecannon's effectiveness drops with the number of enemy models in the unit, and thus if there's only 4 left, it can only ever generate 4 hits.

If you play a REALLY good player who is paying attention than ok

I'm assuming we're playing "ok" players, not brand new kids. You don't necessarily need a *really* good player to avoid that, just someone who is aware of the capabilities of large blasts and realizes the danger, most players who have been in the game a bit will get that. I learned that within my first month of playing.

but I think that normally you would get 7-10 models under the blast which would again change the numbers.

That requires them to be extremely bunched up, getting 10 under a large blast is exceedingly rare, and requires them to almost all be in nearly a Deep Strike circle.

Assuming an average of 7-10 is highly unrealistic for a typical shot. It's possible to hit that many, but just as often you may only be able to hit 1 or 2 because of LoS/spread/casualties, etc. Hence why I went with an average of 5.

My personal opinion is that the numbers arn't groundbreaking. The Wave Serpent is good, but its not the game ending monster people are making it out to be.

The Wave Serpent is in most cases is outdoing most of the Leman Russ tanks' damage output by 50-125% with the singular exception of marines in the open (where the Russ is only outdoing the Wave Serpent by 17%) and once even just a 5+ cover save is involved the Russ tank's damage out put drops far more dramatically and the Wave Serpent pulls ahead in even that category and increases its lead in the others.

For a vehicle that's cheaper, that can arguably be just as resilient if not moreso (between Jink, serpent shield save if they aren't firing the cannon to avoid pen's and explodes results, and speed to avoid assaults/enemy firing lanes), that's far easier to take large numbers of (taking lots or Russ tanks requires taking multiple detachments, playing unbound, or crippling their effectiveness by Squadroning them), can be Superscoring, and that's a transport (and a great one) to boot, those kind of numbers outshining dedicated heavy gun platforms taking Heavy Support slots and costing more points is rather silly.

It's not a "game ender" in and of itself, taking a Wave Serpent isn't going to automatically win you the game, but it's hard to argue they're not overpowered crutch units, just as say, the IG Vendetta was in 5E.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Smitty0305 wrote:


I think your math on to hit chance is wrong.

Can you point out where?

I also think that 5 models under a large blast is on the low side.

Having run Leman Russ tanks and other various Large Blast wielding units over four or five editions now, unless you catch a unit Deep Striking, or having rolled very low for consolidation or something, you won't hit a huge number against a half-way competent opponent that has dealt with large blast weapons before. If they are very much aware of the battlecannon, often you won't hit more than 3 even with a direct hit. I find 4 is a much more realistic average, that's about what I normally get with large blasts, but I bumped it to 5 just to be on the safe side. Averaging 7-10 hits is lucky, often you're never presented with that many, and often when you are you either may not have a shot to the unit or can't place the template to hit that many due to LoS issues (e.g. they may all be clumped up, but you can only see the guy on the edge because the rest are behind their wrecked transport).

The number of models left also makes a huge difference. If there's only 4 models left in a unit, the Wave Serpent's average damage output isn't affected, the number of models has no effect on the Wave Serpent's hit rate, while the Battlecannon's effectiveness drops with the number of enemy models in the unit, and thus if there's only 4 left, it can only ever generate 4 hits.

If you play a REALLY good player who is paying attention than ok

I'm assuming we're playing "ok" players, not brand new kids. You don't necessarily need a *really* good player to avoid that, just someone who is aware of the capabilities of large blasts and realizes the danger, most players who have been in the game a bit will get that. I learned that within my first month of playing.

but I think that normally you would get 7-10 models under the blast which would again change the numbers.

That requires them to be extremely bunched up, getting 10 under a large blast is exceedingly rare, and requires them to almost all be in nearly a Deep Strike circle.

Assuming an average of 7-10 is highly unrealistic for a typical shot. It's possible to hit that many, but just as often you may only be able to hit 1 or 2 because of LoS/spread/casualties, etc. Hence why I went with an average of 5.

My personal opinion is that the numbers arn't groundbreaking. The Wave Serpent is good, but its not the game ending monster people are making it out to be.

The Wave Serpent is in most cases is outdoing most of the Leman Russ tanks' damage output by 50-125% with the singular exception of marines in the open (where the Russ is only outdoing the Wave Serpent by 17%) and once even just a 5+ cover save is involved the Russ tank's damage out put drops far more dramatically and the Wave Serpent pulls ahead in even that category and increases its lead in the others.

For a vehicle that's cheaper, that can arguably be just as resilient if not moreso (between Jink, serpent shield save if they aren't firing the cannon to avoid pen's and explodes results, and speed to avoid assaults/enemy firing lanes), that's far easier to take large numbers of (taking lots or Russ tanks requires taking multiple detachments, playing unbound, or crippling their effectiveness by Squadroning them), can be Superscoring, and that's a transport (and a great one) to boot, those kind of numbers outshining dedicated heavy gun platforms taking Heavy Support slots and costing more points is rather silly.

It's not a "game ender" in and of itself, taking a Wave Serpent isn't going to automatically win you the game, but it's hard to argue they're not overpowered crutch units, just as say, the IG Vendetta was in 5E.

Space Marine Devastator Squad / Centurion Squad with Tank Hunter / Razorback with Assault Cannons or Las/Plas / ThunderFire Cannon would all be things to compare it to as well on a /point basis.

I also dont agree with it being called a "crutch" unit. Its the only dedicated transport, and we all know that scoring Eldar units in the open = dead.

I don't disagree with the notion that most Eldar infantry in the open are dead very quickly. But given that many Eldar lists are built around just taking large numbers of Wave Serpents with the infantry basically as a "scoring bonus", that's when it goes from simply being overpowered to being a crutch as well.

As a dedicated transport, it's too effective at too long a range against too large a variety of units for too low a points costs and fills more roles than it should.

We can run the comparison with those other units if you want, but they also aren't doing everything a Wave Serpent is doing.

SM Devastators are largely static and aren't zipping around the board and aren't transporting anything (and unless taken in full size and thus be *much* more expensive than the Wave Serpent, they're also going to be outrageously easier to kill).

Centurions are going to run *way* more than Wave serpents (a base squad of 3 with just bolter weaponry is nearly 60% more expensive than a Scatterlaser equipped Wave Serpent, and nearly *twice* as expensive with missile launchers and lascannons or grav amps), are and again are very slow and not transporting anything.

Razorbacks with Assault Cannons lack anything near the range of the Wave Serpent, can only transport half as many troops, and are not putting out anything near as much firepower. Their only bonus really is Rending, but they're not ignoring cover and not putting out 6-11 shots (or up to 14 with a Shuriken Cannon that has pseudo-rending). They're also only AV11, no ability to reduce pens to glances, have no Jink capability, can't move over terrain without penalty, and aren't Fast

Thunderfire cannons are very good, but can't harm the same range of units (they're going to be particularly less effective against MC's and tanks) , and also rely a lot on units being bunched up for their damage output. They also aren't transporting anything or claiming objectives.


Lets go through the math with the Razorback, since its the most similar in role, availability, and weapons capabilities.

For comparison, we'll use two of them (150pts) against a Wave Serpent armed with Scatterlaser and a Shuriken Cannon (130pts)



Two Assault Cannon Razorbacks against Marines

8 shots x (2/3) x (1/6rending)=0.89 Rends
8 shots x (2/3) x (2/3 normal wounds) x (1/3 save)=1.185

Now add rerolls

8 shots x((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/6rending)=0.29 Rends
8 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (2/3 normal wounds) x (1/3 save)=0.395

Thus, against Marines in the Open we get 2.76 dead marines on average
With 5+ cover that gets reduced to 1.84
With 4+ cover that gets reduced to 1.38

Lets try it now against a T6 3+sv MC

8 shots x (2/3) x (1/6rending)=0.89 Rends
8 shots x (2/3) x (1/3 normal wounds) x (1/3 save)=0.59

Now add rerolls

8 shots x((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/6rending)=0.29 Rends
8 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/3 normal wounds) x (1/3 save)=0.198

Thus, against a T6 3+sv MC in the Open we get 1.97 wounds on average
With 5+ cover that gets reduced to 1.312
With 4+ cover that gets reduced to .984

Against an AV11 vehicle (note: Rending will have zero effect here)

8 shots x (2/3) x (1/3) = 1.77 HP's

Now add rerolls

8 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/3) = 0.59HP's

Thus against AV11 in the Open we get 2.36 HP's
With 5+ cover that gets reduced to 1.57 HP's
With 4+ cover that gets reduced to 1.18 HP's.


Against an AV13 vehicle (note: Rending will be the only way to harm AV13, any Rend however will inflict an HP)

8 shots x (2/3) x (1/6) = 0.89 HP's

Now add rerolls

8 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/3) = 0.29HP's

Thus against AV13 in the Open we get 1.17 HP's
With 5+ cover that gets reduced to 0.76 HP's
With 4+ cover that gets reduced to 0.59 HP's.


Now lets use the Wave Serpent with Scatterlaser, Serpent Shield, and Shuriken Cannon

Against Marines in the Open

Scatterlaser
4 shots x (2/3) x (5/6) x (1/3save)=0.74

Serpent Shield (averaging 4.5 shots on D6+1)
4.5 shots x (2/3) x (5/6) x (1/3save)=0.833

Shuriken Cannon
3 shots x (2/3) x (1/6 bladestorm)=0.33
3 shots x (2/3) x (2/3 wounds) x (1/3 save)=0.44

Now add in rerolls


Scatterlaser
4 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (5/6) x (1/3save)=0.25

Serpent Shield (averaging 4.5 shots on D6+1)
4.5 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (5/6) x (1/3save)=0.28

Shuriken Cannon
3 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/6 bladestorm)=0.11
3 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (2/3 wounds) x (1/3 save)=0.15

Thus against Marines in the Open we get 3.133 wounds
With a 5+ cover save (relevant only to the Shuriken Cannon) we get 2.99 wounds
With a 4+ cover save (relevant only to the Shuriken Cannon) we get 2.913 wounds.


Against a T6 3+sv MC

Scatterlaser
4 shots x (2/3) x (1/2) x (1/3save)=0.44

Serpent Shield (averaging 4.5 shots on D6+1)
4.5 shots x (2/3) x (2/3) x (1/3save)=0.67

Shuriken Cannon
3 shots x (2/3) x (1/6 bladestorm)=0.33
3 shots x (2/3) x (1/3 wounds) x (1/3 save)=0.22

Now add in rerolls


Scatterlaser
4 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/2) x (1/3save)=0.148

Serpent Shield (averaging 4.5 shots on D6+1)
4.5 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (2/3) x (1/3save)=0.22

Shuriken Cannon
3 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/6 bladestorm)=0.11
3 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/3 wounds) x (1/3 save)=0.074

Thus against a T6 3+sv MC in the open we get 2.21 wounds
With a 5+ cover save (relevant only to the Shuriken Cannon) we get 2.07 wounds
With a 4+ cover save (relevant only to the Shuriken Cannon) we get 1.99 wounds.

Now against AV11

Scatterlaser
4 shots x (2/3) x (1/3)=0.88 HP's

Serpent Shield (averaging 4.5 shots on D6+1)
4.5 shots x (2/3) x (1/2)= 1.5 HP's

Shuriken Cannon (Bladestorm does nothing)
3 shots x (2/3) x (1/3)=0.67 HP's

Now add in rerolls


Scatterlaser
4 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/3)= 0.29 HP's

Serpent Shield (averaging 4.5 shots on D6+1)
4.5 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/2)= 0.5 HP's

Shuriken Cannon
3 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/3)=0.22 HP's

So against an AV11 vehicle in the open we get 4.06 HP's
Against a 5+ cover save that goes down to 3.37 HP's
Against a 4+ cover save that goes down to 3.03 HP's



Now lets look at AV13

Only the Serpent Shield will be relevant here, but we'll assume the Scatterlaser is used and hits (averaging 3.55 hits out of 4 shots with BS4 and rerolls) for Laserlock to go off to Twin Link the Serpent Shield

Serpent Shield (averaging 4.5 shots on D6+1)
4.5 shots x (2/3) x (1/6)= 0.5 HP's

Now add in rerolls

Serpent Shield (averaging 4.5 shots on D6+1)
4.5 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/6)= 0.17 HP's

Thus against AV13 we get 0.67 HP's, regardless of any Cover (as the shield ignores it)



So, lets look at the results. We've got *two* Assault Cannon armed Razorbacks at 150pts. We've got *one* Wave Serpent with Scatterlaser and Shuriken Cannon at 130pts.

Against a Marine unit, the single Wave Serpent is superior in every category, and its lead becomes increasingly commanding as cover becomes involved.

Against a T6 3+sv Monstrous Creature, we see the same result, the Wave Serpent is clearly superior in each category and becomes every more superior the more cover is involved, putting out twice the wound rate when 4+ cover is present.

Against AV11 we see the exact same pattern, only moreso, and with 4+ cover involved the Wave Serpent is creeping up to 3x the HP output.

It's only against AV13 that the Razorbacks see any sort of advantage, being rather clearly superior against AV13 in the open, but once again, as cover comes into play, dramatically decreasing in effectiveness as cover comes into play, only holding a 13% increase in effectiveness when 5+ cover is in play and finally being overtaken by the Wave Serpent when 4+ cover is in play.

Lets also not that at any ranges beyond 24", the Razorbacks are incapable of doing anything, while the Wave Serpent only loses the Shuriken Cannon, and can hit out to 60" with the Serpent Shield.

So again, the Wave Serpent is dramatically superior against a wider array of units than the two other transports combined, which also sport dramatically shorter overall ranges, that together cost more than the Wave Serpent, only have AV11 instead of AV12, only equal transport capacity between them, no Jink, no ignoring terrain, and no Fast movement.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I don't disagree with the notion that most Eldar infantry in the open are dead very quickly. But given that many Eldar lists are built around just taking large numbers of Wave Serpents with the infantry basically as a "scoring bonus", that's when it goes from simply being overpowered to being a crutch as well.

As a dedicated transport, it's too effective at too long a range against too large a variety of units for too low a points costs and fills more roles than it should.

We can run the comparison with those other units if you want, but they also aren't doing everything a Wave Serpent is doing.

SM Devastators are largely static and aren't zipping around the board and aren't transporting anything (and unless taken in full size and thus be *much* more expensive than the Wave Serpent, they're also going to be outrageously easier to kill).

Centurions are going to run *way* more than Wave serpents (a base squad of 3 with just bolter weaponry is nearly 60% more expensive than a Scatterlaser equipped Wave Serpent, and nearly *twice* as expensive with missile launchers and lascannons or grav amps), are and again are very slow and not transporting anything.

Razorbacks with Assault Cannons lack anything near the range of the Wave Serpent, can only transport half as many troops, and are not putting out anything near as much firepower. Their only bonus really is Rending, but they're not ignoring cover and not putting out 6-11 shots (or up to 14 with a Shuriken Cannon that has pseudo-rending). They're also only AV11, no ability to reduce pens to glances, have no Jink capability, can't move over terrain without penalty, and aren't Fast

Thunderfire cannons are very good, but can't harm the same range of units (they're going to be particularly less effective against MC's and tanks) , and also rely a lot on units being bunched up for their damage output. They also aren't transporting anything or claiming objectives.


Lets go through the math with the Razorback, since its the most similar in role, availability, and weapons capabilities.

For comparison, we'll use two of them (150pts) against a Wave Serpent armed with Scatterlaser and a Shuriken Cannon (130pts)



Two Assault Cannon Razorbacks against Marines

8 shots x (2/3) x (1/6rending)=0.89 Rends
8 shots x (2/3) x (2/3 normal wounds) x (1/3 save)=1.185

Now add rerolls

8 shots x((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/6rending)=0.29 Rends
8 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (2/3 normal wounds) x (1/3 save)=0.395

Thus, against Marines in the Open we get 2.76 dead marines on average
With 5+ cover that gets reduced to 1.84
With 4+ cover that gets reduced to 1.38

Lets try it now against a T6 3+sv MC

8 shots x (2/3) x (1/6rending)=0.89 Rends
8 shots x (2/3) x (1/3 normal wounds) x (1/3 save)=0.59

Now add rerolls

8 shots x((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/6rending)=0.29 Rends
8 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/3 normal wounds) x (1/3 save)=0.198

Thus, against a T6 3+sv MC in the Open we get 1.97 wounds on average
With 5+ cover that gets reduced to 1.312
With 4+ cover that gets reduced to .984

Against an AV11 vehicle (note: Rending will have zero effect here)

8 shots x (2/3) x (1/3) = 1.77 HP's

Now add rerolls

8 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/3) = 0.59HP's

Thus against AV11 in the Open we get 2.36 HP's
With 5+ cover that gets reduced to 1.57 HP's
With 4+ cover that gets reduced to 1.18 HP's.


Against an AV13 vehicle (note: Rending will be the only way to harm AV13, any Rend however will inflict an HP)

8 shots x (2/3) x (1/6) = 0.89 HP's

Now add rerolls

8 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/3) = 0.29HP's

Thus against AV13 in the Open we get 1.17 HP's
With 5+ cover that gets reduced to 0.76 HP's
With 4+ cover that gets reduced to 0.59 HP's.


Now lets use the Wave Serpent with Scatterlaser, Serpent Shield, and Shuriken Cannon

Against Marines in the Open

Scatterlaser
4 shots x (2/3) x (5/6) x (1/3save)=0.74

Serpent Shield (averaging 4.5 shots on D6+1)
4.5 shots x (2/3) x (5/6) x (1/3save)=0.833

Shuriken Cannon
3 shots x (2/3) x (1/6 bladestorm)=0.33
3 shots x (2/3) x (2/3 wounds) x (1/3 save)=0.44

Now add in rerolls


Scatterlaser
4 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (5/6) x (1/3save)=0.25

Serpent Shield (averaging 4.5 shots on D6+1)
4.5 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (5/6) x (1/3save)=0.28

Shuriken Cannon
3 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/6 bladestorm)=0.11
3 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (2/3 wounds) x (1/3 save)=0.15

Thus against Marines in the Open we get 3.133 wounds
With a 5+ cover save (relevant only to the Shuriken Cannon) we get 2.99 wounds
With a 4+ cover save (relevant only to the Shuriken Cannon) we get 2.913 wounds.


Against a T6 3+sv MC

Scatterlaser
4 shots x (2/3) x (1/2) x (1/3save)=0.44

Serpent Shield (averaging 4.5 shots on D6+1)
4.5 shots x (2/3) x (2/3) x (1/3save)=0.67

Shuriken Cannon
3 shots x (2/3) x (1/6 bladestorm)=0.33
3 shots x (2/3) x (1/3 wounds) x (1/3 save)=0.22

Now add in rerolls


Scatterlaser
4 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/2) x (1/3save)=0.148

Serpent Shield (averaging 4.5 shots on D6+1)
4.5 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (2/3) x (1/3save)=0.22

Shuriken Cannon
3 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/6 bladestorm)=0.11
3 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/3 wounds) x (1/3 save)=0.074

Thus against a T6 3+sv MC in the open we get 2.21 wounds
With a 5+ cover save (relevant only to the Shuriken Cannon) we get 2.07 wounds
With a 4+ cover save (relevant only to the Shuriken Cannon) we get 1.99 wounds.

Now against AV11

Scatterlaser
4 shots x (2/3) x (1/3)=0.88 HP's

Serpent Shield (averaging 4.5 shots on D6+1)
4.5 shots x (2/3) x (1/2)= 1.5 HP's

Shuriken Cannon (Bladestorm does nothing)
3 shots x (2/3) x (1/3)=0.67 HP's

Now add in rerolls


Scatterlaser
4 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/3)= 0.29 HP's

Serpent Shield (averaging 4.5 shots on D6+1)
4.5 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/2)= 0.5 HP's

Shuriken Cannon
3 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/3)=0.22 HP's

So against an AV11 vehicle in the open we get 4.06 HP's
Against a 5+ cover save that goes down to 3.37 HP's
Against a 4+ cover save that goes down to 3.03 HP's



Now lets look at AV13

Only the Serpent Shield will be relevant here, but we'll assume the Scatterlaser is used and hits (averaging 3.55 hits out of 4 shots with BS4 and rerolls) for Laserlock to go off to Twin Link the Serpent Shield

Serpent Shield (averaging 4.5 shots on D6+1)
4.5 shots x (2/3) x (1/6)= 0.5 HP's

Now add in rerolls

Serpent Shield (averaging 4.5 shots on D6+1)
4.5 shots x ((1/3)*(2/3)) x (1/6)= 0.17 HP's

Thus against AV13 we get 0.67 HP's, regardless of any Cover (as the shield ignores it)



So, lets look at the results. We've got *two* Assault Cannon armed Razorbacks at 150pts. We've got *one* Wave Serpent with Scatterlaser and Shuriken Cannon at 130pts.

Against a Marine unit, the single Wave Serpent is superior in every category, and its lead becomes increasingly commanding as cover becomes involved.

Against a T6 3+sv Monstrous Creature, we see the same result, the Wave Serpent is clearly superior in each category and becomes every more superior the more cover is involved, putting out twice the wound rate when 4+ cover is present.

Against AV11 we see the exact same pattern, only moreso, and with 4+ cover involved the Wave Serpent is creeping up to 3x the HP output.

It's only against AV13 that the Razorbacks see any sort of advantage, being rather clearly superior against AV13 in the open, but once again, as cover comes into play, dramatically decreasing in effectiveness as cover comes into play, only holding a 13% increase in effectiveness when 5+ cover is in play and finally being overtaken by the Wave Serpent when 4+ cover is in play.

Lets also not that at any ranges beyond 24", the Razorbacks are incapable of doing anything, while the Wave Serpent only loses the Shuriken Cannon, and can hit out to 60" with the Serpent Shield.

So again, the Wave Serpent is dramatically superior against a wider array of units than the two other transports combined, which also sport dramatically shorter overall ranges, that together cost more than the Wave Serpent, only have AV11 instead of AV12, only equal transport capacity between them, no Jink, no ignoring terrain, and no Fast movement.

You're above average intelligence, what do you do in the real world?

So on a point/point basis for killing marines its still within a 5% Margin. I agree a 5% advantage is awesome but I dont consider that game breaking or even over powered.

If you have time to edit this into the original article I think at this point the article pretty much speaks for itself. At this point it just becomes how you interpret the data and what % more effective deems something overpowered.

On a point for point basis that difference is much more than 5% for killing marines even under the optimal conditions for the Razorbacks.

For 150pts, the two Razorbacks on average are killing 2.76 marines in the open with no cover, or 38.64pts worth of unuppgraded tac marines at 14pts each, for 150pts, or 0.26pts killed per point spent.

For 130pts, the Wave Serpent is killing an average of 3.133 marines in the open with no cover, or 43.86pts worth of unupgraded tac marines, for 130pts at 14pts each, or 0.34pts killed per point spent.

That's a 31% gap in killing efficiency per point invested, not a 5% gap, and that's under optimal ranges and conditions for the Razorback.

If cover is involved, that gap increases dramatically, with even just common 5+ cover the Razorback drops to .17pts killed per point spent, versus the Wave Serpent's 0.32pts killed per point spent, a gap of 88%. With 4+ cover, that goes to 0.13pts killed per point spent for the Razorbacks versus 0.31pts killed per point spent for the Wave Serpent, a stunning 138% increase in casualty output per point spent.

This is to say nothing of the fact that the Razorbacks cannot hurt anything beyond 24", and can only fire snapshots if moving over 6", while the Wave Serpent can reach out to up to 60" (or 36" and still keep the shield) after moving 12".

Also not getting into any other issues of resiliency, total speed differences, etc.

Why is the OP comparing the Wave Serpent with a Venom? Aren't those Transports completely unrelated?

Why isn't the Wave Serpent being compared with a Flying Croissant?

And why is there a focus on MEQ killing power for a Transport? What?

Lets try it vs a Nighscythe, gimme a few minutes and we'll run the above comparison here.


EDIT: allrighty, here we go.

Nightscythe vs Marine unit

4 shots x ((1/6tesla)*3)) x (5/6) x (1/3save)=0.55
4 shots x (1/2) x (5/6) x (1/3save)=0.55

Now add in rerolls

4 shots x ((1/3)*((1/6tesla)*3))) x (5/6) x (1/3save)=.185
4 shots x ((1/3)* (1/2)) x (5/6) x (1/3save)=0.185

Total=1.47 dead marines, cover or no. 0.2058 dead marines per point spent

Against a T6 3+sv MC

4 shots x ((1/6tesla)*3)) x (2/3) x (1/3save)=0.44
4 shots x (1/2) x (2/3) x (1/3save)=0.44

Now add in rerolls

4 shots x ((1/3)*((1/6tesla)*3))) x (2/3) x (1/3save)=.148
4 shots x ((1/3)* (1/2)) x (2/3) x (1/3save)=0.148

Total 1.18 wounds on a T6 3+sv MC regardless of cover.

Against an AV11 vehicle


4 shots x ((1/6tesla)*3)) x (1/2) =1
4 shots x (1/2) x (1/2) = 1

Now add in rerolls

4 shots x ((1/3)*((1/6tesla)*3))) x (1/2)=.0.33
4 shots x ((1/3)* (1/2)) x (1/2)=0.33

Ergo we get 2.66 HP's against an AV11 vehicle in the open, 1.77 HP's against an AV11 vehicle in 5+ cover, and 1.33 HP's against an AV11 vehicle with 4+ cover.


Now against AV13

4 shots x ((1/6tesla)*3)) x (1/6) =0.33
4 shots x (1/2) x (1/6) = 0.33

Now add in rerolls

4 shots x ((1/3)*((1/6tesla)*3))) x (1/6)=.0.11
4 shots x ((1/3)* (1/2)) x (1/6)=0.11

In total we get an average of 0.88 HP's against an AV13 vehicle in the open, 0.59 against an AV13 vehicle in 5+ cover, and 0.44 HP's against an AV13 vehicle in 4+ cover.

So both in absolute and relative terms (even accounting for the Night Scythe being cheaper than the Wave Serpent), the dreaded Night Scythe is actually significantly less killy against any of these targets save for the AV13 vehicle in the open (and in 5+ cover if you account for the relative price difference, but 4+ brings it back to the WS either way).

The primary advantage of the Nightscythe is that it's only hit on 6's and cannot be assaulted, and if shot down, nothing bad happens to its passengers, and its firepower is actually pretty solid. Quite handy, and there's a reason its seen as being in dire need of a price increase.

On the other hand, the Wave Serpent still blows it out of the water in almost every respect in terms of firepower in almost any configuration, it must start the game in reserves and arrives randomly, does have lower armor and no way to enhance its jink saves, and cannot maneuver as freely.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Why is the OP comparing the Wave Serpent with a Venom? Aren't those Transports completely unrelated?

Why isn't the Wave Serpent being compared with a Flying Croissant?

And why is there a focus on MEQ killing power for a Transport? What?

Should've seen the first edition of this article.

The article itself makes no sense, in first or current form.

I don't select Transports based on how well they kill Marines. That's just gravy.

I care about actual Transporty things, like how many models they carry, how fast they move, how well they protect the occupants, and so on.

What's next, measuring Walkers based on their Scoring ability? Or TEQs based on their mobility?

The problem with the Wave Serpent is that, while great at actually also being a transport, its often taken and employed simply as a battle tank (because it's highly effective in that role), with whatever is being transported being taken simply as an "unlock" to get the Serpent as a battle tank.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Lets try it vs a Nighscythe, gimme a few minutes and we'll run the above comparison here.

[SNIP!]
So both in absolute and relative terms (even accounting for the Night Scythe being cheaper than the Wave Serpent), the dreaded Night Scythe is actually significantly less killy against any of these targets save for the AV13 vehicle in the open (and in 5+ cover if you account for the relative price difference, but 4+ brings it back to the WS either way).

The primary advantage of the Nightscythe is that it's only hit on 6's and cannot be assaulted, and if shot down, nothing bad happens to its passengers, and its firepower is actually pretty solid. Quite handy, and there's a reason its seen as being in dire need of a price increase.

On the other hand, the Wave Serpent still blows it out of the water in almost every respect in terms of firepower in almost any configuration, it must start the game in reserves and arrives randomly, does have lower armor and no way to enhance its jink saves, and cannot maneuver as freely.

As above, people don't take the Nightscythe as a mobile gun platform. Nor should anyone be taking the WS as a flying gun.

The Nightscythe is a vastly superior Transport. May always disembark, no risk to passengers is FANTASTIC. I would gladly strip the guns off a Wave Serpent to guarantee my embarked Eldars could never be killed, that they could disembark any time I wanted them to, with no loss of mobility. And the Armor is not lower, it's AV13 pretty much indefinitely.

Sure WS spam has "gimmick" power, but it's not a good transport. It's a good trick. There's a difference.

The Wave Serpent is still great as a transport.

Sporting AV12, with possible 3+ jink cover save in the open, and if you're wanting it as a transport, don't fire the shield so pens are reduced to glances on 2+ preventing immobilized/stunned results from occurring of forcing any tests on passengers, and you don't have to wait on it randomly coming in. and being a Fast Skimmer it's got a tremendous range of movement.

Trying to *stop* a wave Serpent from getting to where it wants its cargo to go is very difficult indeed if it's wanting to act as a transport, moreso than probably any other dedicated transport besides possibly the Night Scythe (and even there that's mainly just because it's only hit on 6's), and against anything with Skyfire the Wave Serpent is notably more capable as a transport (obviously less common, particularly since the meganerfing of the Hydra, but still a consideration).

 Smitty0305 wrote:

In Objective Games / Modified Malestorm Objective Games, the Eldar player will be forced to move his serpents onto objectives resulting in putting the serpents into unwanted circumstances.

When a Wave Serpent lets its Fire Dragons out, the Wave Serpent will always be within 12-18" from the target of the Fire Dragons. Assuming there is something next to the target of the Fire Dragons, unless the player deploys badly a Wave Serpent normally dies after dropping off Fire Dragons/WraithGuard.

You can be losing 100-1 on objective points, but if you table your opponent, you still win. Why would someone drop off their payload in a situation in which they would lose their most point efficient unit? in your words, they just are bad if they do that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The article itself makes no sense, in first or current form.

I don't select Transports based on how well they kill Marines. That's just gravy.

I care about actual Transporty things, like how many models they carry, how fast they move, how well they protect the occupants, and so on.

What's next, measuring Walkers based on their Scoring ability? Or TEQs based on their mobility?

Okay... Imagine you had a walker that moves up to 24 inches, has Ob-Sec, and can hold objectives from 6 inches, while costing as much as a naked dread. I think at that point we'd have that article about Scoring Walkers.

Wave Serpents are the same on the Killy scale as that imaginary walker is on the Scoring scale.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The article itself makes no sense, in first or current form.

I don't select Transports based on how well they kill Marines. That's just gravy.

I care about actual Transporty things, like how many models they carry, how fast they move, how well they protect the occupants, and so on.

What's next, measuring Walkers based on their Scoring ability? Or TEQs based on their mobility?

Thanks for making it very clear how bad at this game you are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Lets try it vs a Nighscythe, gimme a few minutes and we'll run the above comparison here.

[SNIP!]
So both in absolute and relative terms (even accounting for the Night Scythe being cheaper than the Wave Serpent), the dreaded Night Scythe is actually significantly less killy against any of these targets save for the AV13 vehicle in the open (and in 5+ cover if you account for the relative price difference, but 4+ brings it back to the WS either way).

The primary advantage of the Nightscythe is that it's only hit on 6's and cannot be assaulted, and if shot down, nothing bad happens to its passengers, and its firepower is actually pretty solid. Quite handy, and there's a reason its seen as being in dire need of a price increase.

On the other hand, the Wave Serpent still blows it out of the water in almost every respect in terms of firepower in almost any configuration, it must start the game in reserves and arrives randomly, does have lower armor and no way to enhance its jink saves, and cannot maneuver as freely.

Bad

As above, people don't take the Nightscythe as a mobile gun platform. Nor should anyone be taking the WS as a flying gun.

The Nightscythe is a vastly superior Transport. May always disembark, no risk to passengers is FANTASTIC. I would gladly strip the guns off a Wave Serpent to guarantee my embarked Eldars could never be killed, that they could disembark any time I wanted them to, with no loss of mobility. And the Armor is not lower, it's AV13 pretty much indefinitely.

Sure WS spam has "gimmick" power, but it's not a good transport. It's a good trick. There's a difference.

B A D

Wow, defensive much?

And 2 edits, and you can't put even 10 words together?

Yeah, I'm just gonna plonk you.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Wow, defensive much?

And 2 edits, and you can't put even 10 words together?

Yeah, I'm just gonna plonk you.

All transports transport things...ignoring their offensive ability literally screams your a scrub at this game.

This whole thread is fething amazing.




I'm sorry, I have nothing to contribute. I just wanted to say that.

If you play a REALLY good player who is paying attention than ok, but I think that normally you would get 7-10 models under the blast which would again change the numbers.

This quote is amazing.

Are you sure you aren't playing 40k against fantasy armies? The only way you should get 10 models under a large blast template is if you are shooting units who are in rank and file.

Calculating the number of hits off a blast weapon is tough as there are so many variables, but an average of 7-10 models is simply not a ball park figure.

A more likely number would be around 4.

I agree with other posters, the thread is a waste of time.

OP: There is another poster on dakka called morgoth who also loves to use 'logic', much like you 'math' to explain why his eldar forces are actually underpowered.
Maybe you two could share numbers? Become pen pals or something?
I think that is the only way you will get someone to agree with you.

XD We should open a Morgoth article, but that just wouldn't be nice (Rule #1)

I think this sums it up - paraphrasing his sig:

"The only thing that match's Smitty0305's ignorance of actual balance or 40k rules, is his arrogance"...........

Prime example:

All transports transport things...ignoring their offensive ability literally screams your a scrub at this game.

So apparently is not at all important how well you can transport things, how likely they and the transport are to survive, and if you disagree with the OP then its back to L2P.................

 Mr Morden wrote:
I think this sums it up - paraphrasing his sig:

"The only thing that match's Smitty0305's ignorance of actual balance or 40k rules, is his arrogance"...........

Prime example:

All transports transport things...ignoring their offensive ability literally screams your a scrub at this game.

So apparently is not at all important how well you can transport things, how likely they and the transport are to survive, and if you disagree with the OP then its back to L2P.................

Indeed. It's like nubcake is the first guy to ever play Eldar successfully.

It's not like my competitive Eldar W-L ratio isn't better than his, or that I don't have a "Best General" plaque gathering dust somewhere in the Closet of Shame.

I almost wonder if what sort of insecurity his sig is trying to cover.

This thread kinda loses it's appeal. I think I'm probably done with this silliness - good luck, guys.
____

Oh, yeah, that large (5") blast? Against an opponent who actually cares about not getting hit in a tournament situation, you'd be lucky to get to 4 models under it.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

And the Armor is not lower, it's AV13 pretty much indefinitely.

Nightscythes do not have Quantum Shielding, they are AV11.

Wow, for a silly article, you guys really get worked up. Maybe we should all take a breather and just use other threads to vent instead of giving this thread attention?

DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Wow, for a silly article, you guys really get worked up. Maybe we should all take a breather and just use other threads to vent instead of giving this thread attention?

Use other threads to vent as opposed to the actual thread about the article..?

There are plenty of threads out there than are worth the argument, so yes. Right now all I see going on is a pissing contest.

Surely it's better to keep pointless arguing in the thread about a pointless article, as opposed to spreading it around a forum?

 ImAGeek wrote:
Surely it's better to keep pointless arguing in the thread about a pointless article, as opposed to spreading it around a forum?

Good point. Better to keep it contained

Also havent analyzed land speeders and all their variants.

I think they are insanely good, I started playing against a mate who always runs three, after several games attenpting to feth them up, I realized that they absolutely always have a fething save. Even when I think I have finally pinged one, its "on a 4 thats ignored" or "on a 5 that's only a glance" or some other stupid fething gak.

Anyway, because of that it makes no sense to shoot them, too many shots are wasted because they get ignored, so I just let them hammer me and shoot at everything else.

I can sorta see where the bloke is coming from.

 mattyrm wrote:
I think they are insanely good, I started playing against a mate who always runs three, after several games attenpting to feth them up, I realized that they absolutely always have a fething save. Even when I think I have finally pinged one, its "on a 4 thats ignored" or "on a 5 that's only a glance" or some other stupid fething gak.

Anyway, because of that it makes no sense to shoot them, too many shots are wasted because they get ignored, so I just let them hammer me and shoot at everything else.

I can sorta see where the bloke is coming from.

Or punch them. If you can get close then punching them is always the way.