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if they were deep striking they would count all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain, and would follow the rules for arriving by deep strike. Neither of which they do.

we are also told only models with deep strike are deep striking at the beginning of the deep strike rule.

Units Deep Striking into ruins are placed on the ground floor. Deep Striking units count non-ruined buildings (except for their battlements) as impassable terrain.

they also would not be able to move into buildings or upper levels of ruins from a drop pod.

While there may be a point that if they were in reserves, and the drop pod they were in was in reserves they are arriving from deep strike reserves (it could also be argued they are not, as deep strike reserves are models in reserves arriving by deepstrike and they do not have deep strike... separate discussion there..)

assuming they count as being in deep strike reserves, they themselves still do not follow the rules for arriving by deepstrike, ie deploy model roll for scatter etc etc, difficult terrain=dangerous, buildings are impassable etc.

and as such they cannot be arriving by deepstrike, as arriving by deepstrike are rules for deploying the unit in the rulebook. i.e. place model roll scatter...

blaktoof wrote:
if they were deep striking they would count all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain, and would follow the rules for arriving by deep strike. Neither of which they do.

we are also told only models with deep strike are deep striking at the beginning of the deep strike rule.

Units Deep Striking into ruins are placed on the ground floor. Deep Striking units count non-ruined buildings (except for their battlements) as impassable terrain.

they also would not be able to move into buildings or upper levels of ruins from a drop pod.

While there may be a point that if they were in reserves, and the drop pod they were in was in reserves they are arriving from deep strike reserves (it could also be argued they are not, as deep strike reserves are models in reserves arriving by deepstrike and they do not have deep strike... separate discussion there..)

assuming they count as being in deep strike reserves, they themselves still do not follow the rules for arriving by deepstrike, ie deploy model roll for scatter etc etc, difficult terrain=dangerous, buildings are impassable etc.

and as such they cannot be arriving by deepstrike, as arriving by deepstrike are rules for deploying the unit in the rulebook. i.e. place model roll scatter...

Regardless of all of that, units disembarking from deep striking transports on the turn the transport came in from reserves are called deep striking units. So... explain that?

Can't explain it, but do not need to.

We are told units have to have deep strike to deep strike. We are told what arriving by deep strike means ruleswise, the units inside do not follow those rules.

in the section 'Deep strike and Transports' we are told:

A Transport vehicle with Deep Strike may Deep Strike regardless of whether its passengers have Deep Strike or not.

So it is obvious the units inside do not have deep strike, we are not given permission to count them as deep striking, or told that they are also deep striking.

prior to that we are told

In that turn’s Assault phase, however, these units cannot charge. This also applies to units that have disembarked from Transports that arrived by Deep Strike that turn.

Which states that deep striking units cannot charge, and further states that units that disembarked from transports that arrived by deep strike cannot charge.

The second line distinctly tells us the transport is arriving by deepstrike, and the units are disembarking from the transport, and its inclusion shows that the units disembarking need the restriction to assault as well, because they are not deep striking. If they were deepstriking this line would be unnecessary in its entirety because it was stated right before it that in that turns assault phase these units (deep striking units) cannot charge.

From the rules for deep striking, despite that line, we can see clearly that they are not following the rules for deep striking in any regard.

So if they do not have deep strike, do not count as having deep strike, and are not following the rules for deep striking, how can they be deepstriking?

despite that one line there is no rules to actually support they are deep striking. There are rules that support they are not deep striking.

I chalk that line up to GW writing skills, such as FnP

When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded (this is not a saving throw and so can

next paragraph in FnP rule..

Feel No Pain saves may not be taken against

So RAW its not a save, but RAW it is a save...

the point being, despite that one line there is no actual rule stating that units embarked in a DSing vehicle are DSing, and all the rules support otherwise.

As such it could actually be argued that units inside transports are not deep striking units, and may therefore move normally when they disembark (which is how most people play it as I have never seen someone, or had a TO rule, that units disembarking from a drop pod could not go into upper levels of ruins, counted difficult terrain as dangerous, or counted buildings as impassable which DSing units must do.) From a RAW standpoint the rule you quoted has no effect in regards to embarked models that do not have DS/are not DSing themselves.

Of course there are rules in the DSing section that have restriction that specifcally call out units disembarking from transports arriving by deep strike not being able to assault etc.

Blacktoof, this might help:

 BlackTalos wrote:
I think some rules might make this clearer too:

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.

Arriving by Deep Strike
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.
In that turn’s Assault phase, however, these units cannot charge. This also applies to units that have disembarked from Transports that arrived by Deep Strike that turn.

In Orange is the specific action of Arriving by Deep Strike, which only the Pod can do (because, for example, a Tactical Squad inside does not have the Deep Strike Special Rule, a requirement if you read the first line)

In Green is the reference to all of the unit, the Pod and the Passengers.

You still seem to struggle understanding (don't worry, i did too at first) that:

A Unit arriving by Deep Strike is Deep Striking and must be in Deep Strike Reserves. However:

A) "Arriving by Deep Strike"
B) Deep Striking
C) Deep Strike Reserves

Are 3 very different terms.

Drop pod does A, B and C.
Passengers do B, C, but can NOT be doing A (because of many rules - most of those you have listed)

I think the rules for the Drop Pod are pretty clear that the unit is held in deep strike reserve

Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves. At the beginning of your first turn, half your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve. The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally.


So as others have stated, the rule allowing them to assault would be applicable.

blaktoof wrote:
Can't explain it, but do not need to.

We are told units have to have deep strike to deep strike. We are told what arriving by deep strike means ruleswise, the units inside do not follow those rules.

in the section 'Deep strike and Transports' we are told:

A Transport vehicle with Deep Strike may Deep Strike regardless of whether its passengers have Deep Strike or not.

So it is obvious the units inside do not have deep strike, we are not given permission to count them as deep striking, or told that they are also deep striking.

prior to that we are told

In that turn’s Assault phase, however, these units cannot charge. This also applies to units that have disembarked from Transports that arrived by Deep Strike that turn.

Which states that deep striking units cannot charge, and further states that units that disembarked from transports that arrived by deep strike cannot charge.

The second line distinctly tells us the transport is arriving by deepstrike, and the units are disembarking from the transport, and its inclusion shows that the units disembarking need the restriction to assault as well, because they are not deep striking. If they were deepstriking this line would be unnecessary in its entirety because it was stated right before it that in that turns assault phase these units (deep striking units) cannot charge.

From the rules for deep striking, despite that line, we can see clearly that they are not following the rules for deep striking in any regard.

So if they do not have deep strike, do not count as having deep strike, and are not following the rules for deep striking, how can they be deepstriking?

No idea. I just know the rules call them "Deep Striking Units". That's literally enough for me. Lots of power to be had in naming things. GW named the embarked unit a "Deep Striking Unit" when it placed further movement restrictions on said unit. This may be bad rules writing, but it's in the rule book. At best, you can argue a conflict and invoke HYWPI until such time as an errata is issued. Until then, embarked units are Deep Striking Units that arrive from Deep Strike Reserves without performing what we generally understand to be a Deep Strike Process.

despite that one line there is no rules to actually support they are deep striking. There are rules that support they are not deep striking.

You can't just ignore the odd line that disagrees with your position. "There is no rules to actually support they are deep striking." You know... other than that one pesky line calling them a deep striking unit.

I chalk that line up to GW writing skills, such as FnP

When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded (this is not a saving throw and so can

next paragraph in FnP rule..

Feel No Pain saves may not be taken against

So RAW its not a save, but RAW it is a save...

the point being, despite that one line there is no actual rule stating that units embarked in a DSing vehicle are DSing, and all the rules support otherwise.

Again, ignoring the odd line that disagrees with you isn't a great way to interpret the rules as a whole.

As such it could actually be argued that units inside transports are not deep striking units,

Except for the one line that calls them deep striking units

and may therefore move normally when they disembark (which is how most people play it

You can't really use most people's HYWPI as an argument for how the rules are actually written.

as I have never seen someone, or had a TO rule, that units disembarking from a drop pod could not go into upper levels of ruins, counted difficult terrain as dangerous, or counted buildings as impassable which DSing units must do.) From a RAW standpoint the rule you quoted has no effect in regards to embarked models that do not have DS/are not DSing themselves.

Of course there are rules in the DSing section that have restriction that specifcally call out units disembarking from transports arriving by deep strike not being able to assault etc.

Ultimately though, I don't think it matters in the case of the Legion of the Damned.

Codex Legion of the Damned - "Aid Unlooked For: The Legion of the Damned do no benefit from Chapter Tactics and their units cannot be joined by Independent Characters. The always start the game in reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike. Why the arrive by Deep Strike, you may re-roll the Scatter dice if you wish."

I've added emphasis here. The rule only requires that the unit arrive by Deep Strike... not that they Deep Strike. An embarked unit on a Drop Pod most certainly arrives from reserves by Deep Strike. If you believe otherwise, how do you contend that they arrive from reserves? It's not by disembarking. Models aren't in reserves while embarked on a transport.

The intent seems clear here. When this rule was written, there was no such thing as a Fast Attack slot Drop Pod. There was simply no way to put a unit of Legion of the Damned into a Drop Pod, ever. As such, the probable intent (LotD performing a solo Deep Strike with no Transport involved) was always the case. Now though, in a Fast Attack, Battle Brothers Drop Pod world, it is possible to put LotD into a Drop Pod and have them "arrive by Deep Strike" along with the Pod. This fulfills the written requirement of the Aid Unlooked For rule, but likely violates the intention behind the rule. Intentions count for nothing in a RaW debate though.

 Desubot wrote:

 Byte wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
I might have just missed the arguments but when does the fact the contents themselves deep struck matter?

SM Legion of the Damned

Wait this does how?


The primary one would be the BA formation that lets you DS and charge if you drop by two ravens.

Where is this formation found? I must have missed it.

Also, sorry for the spelling, I smashed by hand and am having trouble typing with a couple of fingers. I keep hitting the wrong keys :(

you guys are misunderstanding, drop pods are allowing a unit to bypass he requirements for deepstrike. Think of it this way, drop pods are designed to give non-deepstrike capable units ways to deepstrike you can't put terminators or jump pack equipped units into a drop pod. They were specifically designed to be a work around for marine players. For all intents and purposes an embarked unit is counted as one singular unit until that unit either
A) disembarks
or B
B) the transport is destroyed.

you don't see people moving 12 with rhino's then firing non-snap shots because the unit inside didn't move.

so, when a drop pod arrives via deepstrike, the unit that is in it ( since it is being counted as the same unit for all purposes) is also arriving via deepstrike.

Disclaimer: I haven't fully read the rules in a while, but I remember reading them from 6th. and have skimmed over the several times in 7th already. This is what I cam to conclude.

For all intents and purposes a unit within a drop pod is arriving via deepstrike, only its using a bypass to the normal rule because of the drop pod.

 Byte wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Byte wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
I might have just missed the arguments but when does the fact the contents themselves deep struck matter?

SM Legion of the Damned

Wait this does how?


The primary one would be the BA formation that lets you DS and charge if you drop by two ravens.

Where is this formation found? I must have missed it.

White Dwarf recently i do beleive, someone might give you an exact number.

 raiden wrote:
you guys are misunderstanding, drop pods are allowing a unit to bypass he requirements for deepstrike. Think of it this way, drop pods are designed to give non-deepstrike capable units ways to deepstrike you can't put terminators or jump pack equipped units into a drop pod. They were specifically designed to be a work around for marine players. For all intents and purposes an embarked unit is counted as one singular unit until that unit either
A) disembarks
or B
B) the transport is destroyed.

First, B) cannot exist as the Unit must disembark immediately upon arrival. Secondly, we are just going by rules from the book. Many quotes can be found above. These Units are said to be Deep Striking or in Deep Strike Reserves. Not much you can do about what is written....

 raiden wrote:
you don't see people moving 12 with rhino's then firing non-snap shots because the unit inside didn't move.

Because there is a rule that says so.
If the rule for embarked passengers did not exist, of course we'd fire at full BS...

 raiden wrote:
so, when a drop pod arrives via deepstrike, the unit that is in it ( since it is being counted as the same unit for all purposes) is also arriving via deepstrike.

Arriving by Deep Strike requires you place 1 model from the Unit, and scatter its position. Can you do so with the Unit in the Drop Pod?

 raiden wrote:
Disclaimer: I haven't fully read the rules in a while, but I remember reading them from 6th. and have skimmed over the several times in 7th already. This is what I cam to conclude.

For all intents and purposes a unit within a drop pod is arriving via deepstrike, only its using a bypass to the normal rule because of the drop pod.

A lot of rules have changed from 6th to 7th. Deep Striking is possibly the same, but the current discussion is very Rules-heavy compared to a "Can I do X?"-type question.
I would recommend you dust up on the exact RaW if you are to make a compelling argument

When I stated the rules do not state anywhere that a unit is deep striking, or counts as deep striking if its in a transport that is deepstriking I was referencing:

Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.
In that turn’s Assault phase, however, these units cannot charge. This also applies to units that have disembarked from Transports that arrived by Deep Strike that turn.

This rule states "deep striking units" it does not say that a unit in a transport is deep striking. It does say a "deep striking unit" may not move any further other than to disembark from a deep striking transport.

when I sad the rule doesn't mean anything, as it is written it does not mean anything. Because the units inside the transport are not deep striking because we are not told that units inside a transport count as deep striking, or are deep striking, further they do not have the rule "deep strike" themselves. As such there is no way to deep strike a transport with deep striking units inside it.

Does the unit follow the rules for deep striking, ie arrive by deep strike?

are we told anywhere that it counts as deep striking if in a transport that is deep striking?

blaktoof wrote:
When I stated the rules do not state anywhere that a unit is deep striking, or counts as deep striking if its in a transport that is deepstriking I was referencing:

Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.
In that turn’s Assault phase, however, these units cannot charge. This also applies to units that have disembarked from Transports that arrived by Deep Strike that turn.

This rule states "deep striking units" it does not say that a unit in a transport is deep striking. It does say a "deep striking unit" may not move any further other than to disembark from a deep striking transport.

when I sad the rule doesn't mean anything, as it is written it does not mean anything. Because the units inside the transport are not deep striking because we are not told that units inside a transport count as deep striking, or are deep striking, further they do not have the rule "deep strike" themselves. As such there is no way to deep strike a transport with deep striking units inside it.

Does the unit follow the rules for deep striking, ie arrive by deep strike?

are we told anywhere that it counts as deep striking if in a transport that is deep striking?

I'm not trying to be difficult here. Are we explicitly told? No. However, deep striking units are given permission to disembark from a deep striking transport. This tells us that the models embarked on a deep striking transport are themselves a deep striking unit. You can argue that they didn't "Deep Strike" until you're blue in the face. You can't argue that they aren't a "Deep Striking Unit". It's right there in the rules, in black and white.

I suggest a Mod lock this thread. This has been argued back and forth several times. The rules are poorly written and there is no clear consensus. Work out how this works with your gaming group.

Here is the post where i changed from thinking just like you: Deep Striking = Arriving by Deep Strike
To the current way of seeing thing: You can arrive by Disembarking and "count as Deep Striking" (But you can never be arriving "by Deep Strike")
Sometimes Deep Striking =/= Arriving by Deep Strike

col_impact wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Yes, a unit embarked upon a Deep Striking Transport can be a "Deep Striking unit",

No, it cannot, because it never follows the Rules for Deep Striking.

col_impact wrote:
because the term "Deep Striking unit" can refer to a unit that arrives from Deep Strike reserves.

It can do, but it doesn't have to.

You are getting confused. Calling something "Deep Striking unit" does not necessarily mean that that unit Deep Strikes itself. It can also refer to a unit that arrives from Deep Strike reserves.

Otherwise you can't make sense of this rule!

Spoiler:

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any
further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.

Problem is, you cannot make that separation. There are 3 terms here it seems:
1) A unit that Deep Strikes.
2) "Deep Striking" Units
3) A Unit in Deep Strike Reserves.

You say 1) =/= 2) and that 2) = 3)?
I will prove 1) = 2), and can assure you that 2) =/= 3):

"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table"

Can you "place one model" from the occupants of the Transport? I mean, the occupants ARE "Deep Striking units" right? The are forced by RaW to follow the above.

Q.E.D.: Embarked Units cannot be a Unit that Deep Strike, and as such, cannot be a "Deep Striking unit".

Units embarked on dedicated transports and placed in reserves are combined units and make one roll per the rules. So your logical pitfall is avoided by the rules.

Spoiler:

Combined Reserve Units

During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together.
Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together.
In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.

Moreover, my argument would otherwise have no problem resolving your issue. I am saying that the rules use the term "Deep Striking unit" to refer sometimes narrowly as a unit that has Deep Strike USR and sometimes more generally as unit that arrives from Deep Strike reserve.

If we use ONLY the narrow use, you choke completely on this rule . . .

Spoiler:

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any
further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one

yes, but we are not told the unit embarked in a transport that deep strikes is itself deep striking, counts as deep striking, or a deep striking unit.

It does not actually state that.

its a rule regarding units that are deep striking, on a deep striking transport, which as written is a situation that cannot exist.

blaktoof wrote:
yes, but we are not told the unit embarked in a transport that deep strikes is itself deep striking, counts as deep striking, or a deep striking unit.

It does not actually state that.

its a rule regarding units that are deep striking, on a deep striking transport, which as written is a situation that cannot exist.

Unless you can understand that "units that are deep striking" do not always have to "arrive by Deep Strike" ("and then deploy them as follows: ")


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think this was the clearest phrase here, if you can agree to it... because trying to explain it semantically is hard :-/

 BlackTalos wrote:
The Unit (T+Passengers) is Deep Striking, but only the Transport is arriving "by Deep Strike", while the Passengers are arriving "by disembarking", but the entire (combined) Unit is Deep Striking

I could understand that if there was a rules statement somewhere granting permission for embarked units that do not have DS and are not following the rules for arriving by deep strike to be "deep striking"- but there isn't one anywhere.

I agree that having a discussion on this is difficult because the wording seems to change between various parts of the Deep strike rule itself, and various other unit entries which use deep strike.

Some instances we have just "deep striking" some have "arrive by deep strike" some have "Arrive from deep strike reserves" which the RAW tells us is to arrive by deep striking from reserves but some unit entries (drop pods) essentially change that and imply/state that it means to be in reserves with a transport that is deep striking so essentially they are in deep strike reserves, do not arrive by deep strike, but arrive from deep strike reserves...

none of which is well written by the authors or consistent.

Assuming you think that an unit without DS in a transport that does not follow the rules for DSing is DSing, do you agree that said unit when it disembarks counts all difficult terrain as dangerous, cannot move/disembark into the upper levels of ruins, and counts as buildings as impassable? Which are restrictions placed on units that are deep striking that turn.

Sorry for selective quoting, but i'll jump on these:

blaktoof wrote:
Some instances we have just "deep striking" some have "arrive by deep strike" some have "Arrive from deep strike reserves"

You say that "the RAW tells us is to arrive by deep striking from reserves" but i think this is where i currently see it very differently.
Those 3 statements are all different.
"deep strike reserves" is not always "arrive by deep strike" <--- (1)
"deep striking" is not always "arrive by deep strike" <--- (2)

(1) Because the Drop Pod rules state embarked Units are also in "deep strike reserves", even though it is impossible for them to have the Deep Strike rule (Tactical Marines)
(2) Because of:

Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.

The underlined are the same Subject. And also:

Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units.
when making a Reserve Roll for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and itsTransport vehicle (shortened)

blaktoof wrote:
Assuming you think that an unit without DS in a transport that does not follow the rules for DSing is DSing, do you agree that said unit when it disembarks counts all difficult terrain as dangerous, cannot move/disembark into the upper levels of ruins, and counts as buildings as impassable? Which are restrictions placed on units that are deep striking that turn.

Assuming the above (The underlined is incorrect. The Drop Pod does "arrive by deep strike", they follow these rules:
"Deep Striking units count non-ruined buildings (except for their battlements) as impassable terrain."
Because they are Deep Striking.

However,
"Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain."
This only applies to the Pod / Transport arriving by Deep Strike.
(Via = by)