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So, 7 Ed has been around for some time now, and most people will agree that, while not perfect, this step has made the game a bit better than the 6th Ed before it. The 7th Ed Codexes are, for better or worse, made less complicated and more streamlined, using the same USR for what needn't be too complicated, and generally just cleaning house. We still need a lot of codexes cleaned up, but we'll get to that at some point. Right now. in my opinion, the game is at a good point - Some kind of "point zero", from which all new adventures will be launched

But my personal opinions aside, we all know that a new edition isn't out of the question at all. While I'm sure we all agree that we want 7th for just a little while more, there's nothing stopping us from speculating on what could be done to improve our current game... I'm specifically asking for additions, changes and removals to the overall formula, as it is in 7th Edition, the same way things were changed between 6th to 7th. No big, sweeping changes, just small tweaks that you feel will make the game better as it is now

Anyway, here's a few of mine.

Less randomizing, please!: Simple, really - I'd love it if they made moving through cover a simple 4'', running 6'', charging 8'' and Fleet and Crusader adding 2'' to any of those. I don't really like how random all that movement has to be, and especially charging is made very perilous by random movement... But when it comes down to it, I can live with that. Just... No random running, please.

David and Goliath: For reasons not really disclosed, the Toughness chart makes it so certain weapons can't hurt simple T values, because of low S. I'd rather like it so that the highest you will ever have throw on a To Wound roll is 6, with no roof for when your weapon can no longer damage the opponent.

IZ GOHZILLAH!: I'd like it so that MCs cannot get Cover Saves in the regular sense - That might sound cruel, but a lot of models are just way too hard to deal with when they can have Cover in Ruins. Of course, it should still use the 75% rule for cover (cannot hit them when they are that well-covered!), but for the rest, I'd rather not.

Flight of the Valkyries: I'm not a fan of the very secluded rules for Fliers, and how you need a very specific rule to really put some hurt one them - Instead of the "Can only Snap Shot" thing, just have it be a BS modifier of -1/2, or a Jink Save with 1+ for being a flying machine. The rest, with Swooping and Zooming (which I mostly do not get, but I haven't looked into it) is nice.

What do you want to tweak?

 The Wise Dane wrote:
No big, sweeping changes, just small tweaks that you feel will make the game better as it is now

So you don't want to actually fix it, just make it less bad? ... Sure.

Less randomizing, please!: Simple, really - I'd love it if they made moving through cover a simple 4'', running 6'', charging 8'' and Fleet and Crusader adding 2'' to any of those. I don't really like how random all that movement has to be, and especially charging is made very perilous by random movement... But when it comes down to it, I can live with that. Just... No random running, please.

As long as the Move Through Cover USR makes that 4" into 6", sure, I can live with that.

David and Goliath: For reasons not really disclosed, the Toughness chart makes it so certain weapons can't hurt simple T values, because of low S. I'd rather like it so that the highest you will ever have throw on a To Wound roll is 6, with no roof for when your weapon can no longer damage the opponent.

Good god no. Do you also want anything to pen/glance a vehicle on a 6? What's the difference (in your mind)? High T models already die enough to weight-of-wounds...

IZ GOHZILLAH!: I'd like it so that MCs cannot get Cover Saves in the regular sense - That might sound cruel, but a lot of models are just way too hard to deal with when they can have Cover in Ruins. Of course, it should still use the 75% rule for cover (cannot hit them when they are that well-covered!), but for the rest, I'd rather not.

What 75% rule for cover? That doesn't exist in the actual rulebook... is that a house rule? It's obvious that MCs stole your cereal though...

Flight of the Valkyries: I'm not a fan of the very secluded rules for Fliers, and how you need a very specific rule to really put some hurt one them - Instead of the "Can only Snap Shot" thing, just have it be a BS modifier of -1/2, or a Jink Save with 1+ for being a flying machine. The rest, with Swooping and Zooming (which I mostly do not get, but I haven't looked into it) is nice.

They can already Jink for a 4+... and a BS modifier of -1 or -2 just means that Imperial armies are penalized less than anyone else.

What do you want to tweak?

Overall, the entire rule set needs to be re-written. It's written in a conversational tone which causes lots of arguments about how the rules actually work, there are a lot of things they just don't address that requires making things up to move forward, and they're simply inconsistent enough that entire phases fail to function.

 The Wise Dane wrote:
Flight of the Valkyries: I'm not a fan of the very secluded rules for Fliers, and how you need a very specific rule to really put some hurt one them - Instead of the "Can only Snap Shot" thing, just have it be a BS modifier of -1/2, or a Jink Save with 1+ for being a flying machine. The rest, with Swooping and Zooming (which I mostly do not get, but I haven't looked into it) is nice.

How I'd handle it is taking out the forced snap shots entirely and giving zooming flyers and FMC's an auto-jink that doesn't force them to make snap shots. Still represents them being hard to hit, but doesn't warp the game as heavily with their mere prescence.

Other changes to make this work fully:

Ignores Cover does not ignore the cover saves of flying things.

Skyfire ignores the cover of flying things, but does not ignore the cover of ground based things. Skyfire does not force you to snap fire at ground targets.

Blasts and templates cannot strike flying things unless they have Skyfire, in which case they can only strike flying things.

I'd like cover to lower the Bs of someone shooting. I think it's weird that you have to choose whether to use your armour or your cover.

How about a rulebook that was 5 pages for a skirmish ruleset, maybe 10 more pages for a battles ruleset, and another 5 pages for apoc? Throw in 10 pages for USRs that apply to all three rulesets, and bob's yer uncle. Include a black and white pamphlet-sized version in the starter set, a color softcover version with some more pictures and fluffy bits for like $20, and a big, fat hardcover collector's edition with posters, plastic objective markers, glossy art prints, drink coasters, bumper stickers, vials of blood of Eldar maidens, etc. for the people who find value in that.

Make simple rules that can scale, make them available at varying pricepoints, and maybe reclaim some market share.

I would do the following.

1) No premeasuring. Bring back upgrades that allow you to measure certain distances from the model with the upgrade.

2) Charges and Running = twice your base movement.

3) Difficult terrain counts as twice the distance for movement purposes, including charges. Move through Cover ignores this penalty.

4) Give every vehicle 2 additional Hull points. Vehicles are too fragile as it currently stands.

5) Independent Characters can only join units from the codex they were purchased from. Unit can only embark on transports from the codex they are from.

6) Forests occupy a volume determined by their base. Any shooting which draws line of sight through a forest gives a 5+ cover save to the model they are targeting.

7) Ruin walls give a 4+ cover save to any model that is obscured 25% or more. If a ruin is on a base, the base is difficult terrain that give a 4+ cover to any non-vehicle model standing within it.

8) All vehicles may attempt field repairs in the movement phase. If a vehicle attempts field repairs it must remain stationary and only fire snap shots in the next shooting phase. Roll a D6, on a 5+ the vehicle regains a lost hull point.

 Grey Templar wrote:
2) Charges and Running = twice your base movement.

This would give a lot of combat units a 36 inch radius threat bubble.

4) Give every vehicle 2 additional Hull points. Vehicles are too fragile as it currently stands.

Really, they just need to give out more saves to vehicles. Make it standard that they don't go down the moment you can reliably wound them.

Yes, but that would actually let some of those units make it into combat. Assault marines could actually be useful.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yes, but that would actually let some of those units make it into combat. Assault marines could actually be useful.

So... What's stopping me from setting up eighteen wraiths behind line of sight obscuring cover, taking the second turn for a turn one charge and basically automatically winning because that's outright absurdly good?

And then you make Fleet useless. Unless you give back the ability to charge after a run.

rigeld2 wrote:
And then you make Fleet useless. Unless you give back the ability to charge after a run.

You are correct. I would give that back as well.

 Grey Templar wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
And then you make Fleet useless. Unless you give back the ability to charge after a run.

You are correct. I would give that back as well.

My Wraiths now have a 48 inch threat bubble and ignore all effects of terrain when moving.

 Grey Templar wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
And then you make Fleet useless. Unless you give back the ability to charge after a run.

You are correct. I would give that back as well.

So Genestealers have a 30" threat range that cannot be reduced by terrain. And Wraiths have a 48" threat range that isn't even slowed by impassable terrain.

Yeah, I'm thinking no. Assault needs help, but that's too far the other way.

Charge after running and calm down about not allowing any reserve charging seems the most sensible way.

Like yeah, I can see why they don't want universal charging deep strike surprises but maybe allow it from any other type of reserve and as an option on some specific units?

To halp 7th ed, I would return FnP as it was before it got nerfed, and Poison to what is was before 7th ed. That wouldn't save everyone, but it would help my army!

And in general, I'd give assault marine type units without shooting weapons a buff: say let people charge after they've sprinted if they're jump or jetpack infantry.

I like it how it is, but I would change cover to not giving a save, but a -2BS to a
unit shooting another unit in cover, obviously with ignores cover firing at full BS

So cover is more effective against Marines than Orks? Orks lose 1 BS, Marines would lose 2. It gets worse if you grant a higher penalty to "better" cover (ie, the difference between a plasteel wall and a hedge).

Change charge distances to 6+d6''. Change overwatch so that instead of it being a snap-shot reaction outside of your turn, you have to give up your turn of shooting. In exchange your overwatch is at full BS and the charging unit does not get an attack bonus for charging.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
So cover is more effective against Marines than Orks? Orks lose 1 BS, Marines would lose 2.

That makes sense, considering orks are already relying on pure luck rather than markmanship skill to hit their opponents anyway. Having an object throw off their aim therefore wouldn't inhibit them as it much as it would a marine.

So how about -1 BS for Cover/Stealth, -2 BS for Hard Cover/Shrouded and -3 BS for Invisibility? Minimum BS being 1.

Change cover/stealth/jink to minus 1 to hit. Ruins/shrouded to minus 2. Ignores cover obviously ignores this.

Make hard to hit (flyers) a similar minus to hit as shrouded, ignored by skyfire.

Kill random charge ranges with the angry wrath of 1000 vengeful gods. I might not mind "a little random." But the current "Goofy cartoon" charges are terrible.

Unnerf furious charge. Allow disorganized assaults from parked transports/reserves/deep strike. In fact, change pretty much all "you can't assault because RULES" things to disorganized assaults.

Make psychic powers some kind of point-buy system for the psyker. (ie may choose a b or c for free, or take d for xx points.) on the subject of powers, fix a couple over the top ones like invis and iron arm.

Non-random warlord traits.

Fix the weapon skill chart. Difference of 2= 2+ to hit for advantage guy, 5+ for the low guy. Double = 6+ to hit for low guy. Tau should not be hitting everyone on 4's, and marines should not be hitting the Sanguinor or archons on 4's. WS 10 should do something. You're welcome, avatars and Lelith.

Fix purge the alien to old victory points, and give your superiors some emergency education for maelstrom missions. They should not be telling me to kill a necron psyker. Also fix some of the stupid filler cards. "Cast a psychic power lol" is a prime example of a stupid one.

Fix the awful "play unbound or almost unbound!" Army building rules. I like the new detachments changing the foc, but I shouldn't be able to take 5 detachments in a standard size game. Something like "1 detachment per 3000 points, with an ally or formation per 1500." Make playing unbound suck more when playing against bound armies.

Do something with soul blaze. Super clunky rule that does almost nothing.

Follow this up with some codex specific changes, of course.

I think cover should be an additional save for units.

light cover 6+ (this would also include units that are reasonably obscured visually by this cover.)
ruins 5+ (this would also include units that are reasonably obscured visually by this cover.)
Fortified structures 4+(the kind you pay points for)(vehicals would only retain a 5+ from this kind of cover)

These saves would not confer to parts of the unit outside of cover - closest first would be used to determine cover save

I would create movement modifiers for shooting. This would effect all units in the game

Units that are moving 12" or more in the movement phase should get a - 1 modifier to hit
Units moving over 18" should get a -2 modifier to hit

Additionally stealth would give -1 to hit modifier even out in the open.

If you are reduced to a 0+ to hit you shoot at 6+ to hit and sucessful hits require and additional 4+ to hit.

remove jink - all flyers and skimmers get a 5+ invo save as long as they are moving over 6 inches. Flyers are able to start on the board to compensate and count as moving over 18 inches when they start on the board.

In an effort to make non skimmers viable - tanks should be able to move full speed and fire all weapons at normal BS (to illustrate their more stable firing platforms.) Fast tanks should be able to move 18" and fire all weapons.

Any turret mounted weapon should ignore skimmers and flyers 5+ invo save.

I would change the melta rule. Melta should grant +2 to your roll for armor penetration - remove half range requirement.

I would change charge range to 6+d6 - difficult terrain should reduce this roll by a -2 modifier (ignore cover works as normal.) Calvary would be 6+ 2d6.

just some ideas of mine.

I think FMCs, fliers and LOW should be removed from the game, or at least give a great incentive to a player for killing them.

oz of the north wrote:
I think FMCs, fliers and LOW should be removed from the game, or at least give a great incentive to a player for killing them.

Or at the very least depowered. The rules in the 5e books where they were Fast Skimmers with 36" turbo-boost moves were fine, and the pre-5e-Guard-book Valkyrie was literally identical to today's Valkyrie except 11-11-10.

Also ground-based AA needs to work if Flyers are going to be a part of the game. Snap-shot only at ground targets is not okay.

oz of the north wrote:
I think FMCs, fliers and LOW should be removed from the game, or at least give a great incentive to a player for killing them.

Thats way too broad of a brush to paint with. You probably have a problem with some specific models, not the actual flyer, FMC, or LoW rules.

You also probably mean Super Heavy, and not LoW. Which is also way too broad of a brush. Most super heavies, like the Baneblade variants, are overpriced and fragile.

I would also change MC attacks to ap3, so can get through most armor, but a non-assault being easily able to kill a dedicated assault unit is kinda broken

 Grey Templar wrote:

oz of the north wrote:
I think FMCs, fliers and LOW should be removed from the game, or at least give a great incentive to a player for killing them.

Thats way too broad of a brush to paint with. You probably have a problem with some specific models, not the actual flyer, FMC, or LoW rules.

In my case it's definately the Flyer and FMC rules I have a problem with, and don't mind the units besides those rules making a mess of things.

They distort both the gameplay and the meta to an unacceptable degree as-is.

changemod wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

oz of the north wrote:
I think FMCs, fliers and LOW should be removed from the game, or at least give a great incentive to a player for killing them.

Thats way too broad of a brush to paint with. You probably have a problem with some specific models, not the actual flyer, FMC, or LoW rules.

In my case it's definately the Flyer and FMC rules I have a problem with, and don't mind the units besides those rules making a mess of things.

They distort both the gameplay and the meta to an unacceptable degree as-is.

Mind explaining how?

 Grey Templar wrote:

changemod wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

oz of the north wrote:
I think FMCs, fliers and LOW should be removed from the game, or at least give a great incentive to a player for killing them.

Thats way too broad of a brush to paint with. You probably have a problem with some specific models, not the actual flyer, FMC, or LoW rules.

In my case it's definately the Flyer and FMC rules I have a problem with, and don't mind the units besides those rules making a mess of things.

They distort both the gameplay and the meta to an unacceptable degree as-is.

Mind explaining how?

The most broken units other than WS, are either fliers, FMCs or LOW, such as Tran. C'tan, Flyrant. They also punish certain players, such as SW players who cannot win and do not want to buy another way overpriced codex, or buy the abomination that is the storm fang/wolf.

 Grey Templar wrote:

changemod wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

oz of the north wrote:
I think FMCs, fliers and LOW should be removed from the game, or at least give a great incentive to a player for killing them.

Thats way too broad of a brush to paint with. You probably have a problem with some specific models, not the actual flyer, FMC, or LoW rules.

In my case it's definately the Flyer and FMC rules I have a problem with, and don't mind the units besides those rules making a mess of things.

They distort both the gameplay and the meta to an unacceptable degree as-is.

Mind explaining how?

So, single flyers are common, twin flyer lists aren't massively rare and with FMCs you get these really annoying spammed flying psyker lists that do way less damage than if they just acted as jump monstrous creatures, buffed themselves and charged... But are super durable in the air so the player is relying on survivability to try to win.

So an all-comers list needs a solid anti-flyer solution, but most flyer solutions suck at hitting anything normal. You can take your own flyer, but that's just contributing to the overall issue. You can try to ignore the flyer and kill everything on the ground... And that can work, but the most exciting games tend to be the ones where both sides are at some risk of getting tabled.

Oh, and when actually playing one you need to plan out your mandatory movement positioning turns in advance if you actually want to shoot anything important.

It doesn't make the game unplayable, but almost every aspect of their rules seems to be designed to make things more awkward and less fun for both players.

changemod wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

changemod wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

oz of the north wrote:
I think FMCs, fliers and LOW should be removed from the game, or at least give a great incentive to a player for killing them.

Thats way too broad of a brush to paint with. You probably have a problem with some specific models, not the actual flyer, FMC, or LoW rules.

In my case it's definately the Flyer and FMC rules I have a problem with, and don't mind the units besides those rules making a mess of things.

They distort both the gameplay and the meta to an unacceptable degree as-is.

Mind explaining how?

1) So, single flyers are common, twin flyer lists aren't massively rare and with FMCs you get these really annoying spammed flying psyker lists that do way less damage than if they just acted as jump monstrous creatures, buffed themselves and charged... But are super durable in the air so the player is relying on survivability to try to win.

2) So an all-comers list needs a solid anti-flyer solution, but most flyer solutions suck at hitting anything normal. You can take your own flyer, but that's just contributing to the overall issue. You can try to ignore the flyer and kill everything on the ground... And that can work, but the most exciting games tend to be the ones where both sides are at some risk of getting tabled.

3) Oh, and when actually playing one you need to plan out your mandatory movement positioning turns in advance if you actually want to shoot anything important.

It doesn't make the game unplayable, but almost every aspect of their rules seems to be designed to make things more awkward and less fun for both players.

1) Well the only army that can really spam FMC psykers is Nids, and its about their only competitive option. FMCs also have to check each turn they take hits to see if they crash to the ground and take a lascannon hit to the face. Relying on survivability seems like a legit tactic, not seeing why thats a good reason for removing them.

2) Needing to have an answer for them is really no different than anything else in this game you need an answer for. Its like complaining that you might need an answer for 3+ armor.

3) I fail to see how this is a bad thing. It actually adds an element of skill in that you need to plan your flyers movement a turn in advance. This is a feature, not a bug.