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I often read about OP armies/units. So I've been wondering, 'Is there an actual army list that is unbeatable?'

So just for random discussion what would you say is the best list in the game?

I'm not going to go out and buy it or anything i'm not that rich.

No, since part of using a strong list is the player behind it. If a player no idea what they are doing, or underestimates what their opponent is doing, they will lose no matter how strong of a list they have.

Now that said, yes, there are lists that reduce that margin of error more than others, but apart from the previous edition Grey Knights strike spam against Demons (and only demons) there is no list that is an instant win.

Trying to keep myself civil, i'll say that really is a silly question. Did you expect someone to say "yes"? "Here it is, the perfect list. Surprised you haven't seen it". I mean, yeah, there are knight lists and what not that are very good, but they can always be beaten, not with any list perhaps, but with another very good list.

In a game of dice? no.

The only perfect game would be loaded dice and not getting caught.

and cheatings bad mmkay?

Dice means no list can be perfect, there is always a counter to something as well so if there was a perfect list there would eventually be a hard counter. Its rock paper scissors. This is also why I don't play magic because the game devolves into a few ultimate lists and hard counters to them and i find that incredibly boring. 40k has some of the same issues when you get to ultra competitive levels but I don't play like that and neither do most people in my local meta as compared to magic where even local metas start going to the here are the 6 decks you can use strategy quickly.

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/perfect-imbalance

It wasn't meant to be an uber serious discussion. I'm not looking for the ultimate list personally, just curious if anyone thinks something comes close. Should've been more specific. I'll edit that in.

Boniface wrote:
It wasn't meant to be an uber serious discussion. I'm not looking for the ultimate list personally, just curious if anyone thinks something comes close. Should've been more specific. I'll edit that in.

Closest thing would be WS lists. overall best chance for the points and the amount of jobs it can do.

but we all knew this already.

WS spam is very powerful, but still far from perfect, they are still only av 12 and if firing the shield die pretty easy.

tough call.

i think that any army in 40k/30k can beat any other army if it is tailored to the opponent, but i haven't seen enough 'vanilla' lists of each race to be able to make a judgement.

i think Desubot has it right - wave serpent eldar list, maybe with an additional wraithknight?

but there is no clear answer.

That is where perfect imbalance comes into play if wave serpent spam were to be to good, you would see armies adapt to kill it.

In my local meta a few years ago we had a guys spam vehicles and nobody could really beat him, so our group adapted to kill vehicles, so he started to drop vehicles from the lists and we would bring more anti-infantry. It is just a cycle that will repeat over and over and is artificially changed at some points with a new codex/dataslate.


To sum it up quickly, there will always be powerful lists but the idea of a perfect list is impossible.

If you take six lists that are the ultimate things possible made by six different consistent tournament winning people, one of them will win. There is even a good chance that one of them is undefeated. If you tell the winning list that he/she can not change their list and the other five can, that winning and undefeated list will be countered and annihialated.

There is such a thing as a list so overpowered or cheesy that a normal list has no chance by the simple fact that it nullifies two thirds of the threat management another list incorporates. Maybe it's all flyers, maybe it's all AV12+, maybe it's 600 troop models that just hold every objective on the table. That's what it means to be a rock-paper-scissors game.

If you want a 'perfect list' then I would say the Pentyrant list is the best of the bunch. Able to handle Flyers, Infantry and tanks because of 12 S6 per Tyrant, extreme maneuverability and the E-shock Haywire templates. It has answers for a lot of problems. However, if someone wanted to kill five Flying Hive Tyrants, they could do so with skill and heavy list tailoring. It's not impossible.

Boniface wrote:
I often read about OP armies/units. So I've been wondering, 'Is there an actual army list that is unbeatable?'

So just for random discussion what would you say is the best list in the game?

I'm not going to go out and buy it or anything i'm not that rich.

Opinions are all we CAN give. So my opinions:

BEST: Tzeentch Flying Monstrous Creature Circus. And it's actually a cheap army to build.

UNbeatable: none. We're talking about a dice game. We're also talking about humans who can make mistakes at any minute), as well as infinite terrain variety and so you would be hard pressed to ever feel entirely comfortable about your chances. All you can do is put your best foot forward.

The closest to perfection is probably a Screamer Star at ScreamerStar minimum points.
It's very powerful, extremely resilient and reliable, very mobile and has no big weaknesses.
At exactly the cost of a ScreamerStar, it may not even be possible to write a counter list.

Wave Serpent Spam is often thought to be almighty, but it has many counters, just not many counters that are also competitive against other competitive lists.
WS Spam is very nice against a bunch of competitive builds, and that's what's important to remember about balance and power levels.
The WS Spam only works because nobody brings WS Spam counters, because everyone is gunning for the best average win rate, not just a good win rate against a specific build.

In other words, the best way to win a tournament is to bring a list that is strong enough to take on medium competitive lists while truly breaking the most competitive ones.
That way, if you're a very good player, you'll get through the first turns on skill alone, and then bash your way to the top as you break gimmicky build after gimmicky build thanks to your anti-meta build.
That's all a dream and theory and whatnot, but it's pretty much what competitive play is: a status quo waiting for disruptive builds to regenerate itself.

morgoth wrote:
The closest to perfection is probably a Screamer Star at ScreamerStar minimum points.
It's very powerful, extremely resilient and reliable, very mobile and has no big weaknesses.
At exactly the cost of a ScreamerStar, it may not even be possible to write a counter list.

Mr culuxis would like to have a word with you. (the one and only psyker star killer (breaks nearly all psychic combos based on blessings)

 Desubot wrote:

morgoth wrote:
The closest to perfection is probably a Screamer Star at ScreamerStar minimum points.
It's very powerful, extremely resilient and reliable, very mobile and has no big weaknesses.
At exactly the cost of a ScreamerStar, it may not even be possible to write a counter list.

Mr culuxis would like to have a word with you. (the one and only psyker star killer (breaks nearly all psychic combos based on blessings)

How hard is it to kill the dang assasin? just ID him.

 Desubot wrote:

morgoth wrote:
The closest to perfection is probably a Screamer Star at ScreamerStar minimum points.
It's very powerful, extremely resilient and reliable, very mobile and has no big weaknesses.
At exactly the cost of a ScreamerStar, it may not even be possible to write a counter list.

Mr culuxis would like to have a word with you. (the one and only psyker star killer (breaks nearly all psychic combos based on blessings)

True, I tend to forget the Culexus because we, Eldar, as well as everyone who is not in the Imperium, do not have the option to safely bring him in range of the ScreamerStar.

Even then, you'd probably need 4 empty pods, 5 full pods including the Culexus and 4 units, all within a thousand something points or so, and you have to deal enough damage in a single turn to disable the Star for good.

you will rarely see the psyker assasin in competitive play.. largely due to most tourneys currently only allow two detachments.. but also bc you know that you will see armies w/o psykers and it's too much of a risk..

He is 4++, T4 but makes all the things bs1 and WS1 IIRC. also has Infiltrate, ID against pyskers and or on rolls of wound 6 and ignores all armor. and does ID stuff in shooting too IIRC.

You are kidding me right with that 4 culexus thing?

Just sit him here a unit that can deal with it then punk it when it gets close. if he isnt actively going for your threats you should be fine. no reason to take him to the enemy when you can force your enemy to come to you. ect ect

clucky loses a lot of potential against non psyker armies but he still feths up shooting and has a decent attack in CC.

Could the perfect list win against itself?

rollawaythestone wrote:
Could the perfect list win against itself?

this!

You know, I reckon renegades could do it. Most of their stuff is so damn cheap that you could just spam lots of completely underpriced units. Not that I'm saying this is the ultimate list, but an arch demagogue with cov of tzeentch, mutant overlord, 4 disciples, 20 mutants, 12 OS spawn in 4 units, 6 laser destroyer rapiers with bs3 and 3 wyverns/earthshakers, comes to 660pts. So a 2k list could have, 3 command squads, 12 units of OS spawn, 6 OS units of 10 mutants, 18 laser destroyer rapiers, 6 wyverns and 3 earthshakers. How is a screamerstar or a pent-flyrant list going to possibly cope with that in maelstrom? It has no AA but flyers would have to land or hover or it would table what else they have.
If not playing maelstrom it's a different matter. Especially if playing unit VPs.

Short answer: No.

Longer answer: TAC tends to lose to skew, but skew loses to a skew list that counters it. No skew list beats all others, every unit has a hard counter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Poly Ranger wrote:
You know, I reckon renegades could do it. Most of their stuff is so damn cheap that you could just spam lots of completely underpriced units. Not that I'm saying this is the ultimate list, but an arch demagogue with cov of tzeentch, mutant overlord, 4 disciples, 20 mutants, 12 OS spawn in 4 units, 6 laser destroyer rapiers with bs3 and 3 wyverns/earthshakers, comes to 660pts. So a 2k list could have, 3 command squads, 12 units of OS spawn, 6 OS units of 10 mutants, 18 laser destroyer rapiers, 6 wyverns and 3 earthshakers. How is a screamerstar or a pent-flyrant list going to possibly cope with that in maelstrom? It has no AA but flyers would have to land or hover or it would table what else they have.
If not playing maelstrom it's a different matter. Especially if playing unit VPs.

I'd fight that with Elysians, personally. Drop the Valks in, suicide-melta out the artillery, and spend the rest of the game in the air saturation bombing the infantry before dropping into hover mode with Objective Secured Valkyries at the end of the game.

rollawaythestone wrote:
Could the perfect list win against itself?

Ofc. When one perfect general outdicks the other in a game of rule-lawher.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Short answer: No.

Longer answer: TAC tends to lose to skew, but skew loses to a skew list that counters it. No skew list beats all others, every unit has a hard counter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Poly Ranger wrote:
You know, I reckon renegades could do it. Most of their stuff is so damn cheap that you could just spam lots of completely underpriced units. Not that I'm saying this is the ultimate list, but an arch demagogue with cov of tzeentch, mutant overlord, 4 disciples, 20 mutants, 12 OS spawn in 4 units, 6 laser destroyer rapiers with bs3 and 3 wyverns/earthshakers, comes to 660pts. So a 2k list could have, 3 command squads, 12 units of OS spawn, 6 OS units of 10 mutants, 18 laser destroyer rapiers, 6 wyverns and 3 earthshakers. How is a screamerstar or a pent-flyrant list going to possibly cope with that in maelstrom? It has no AA but flyers would have to land or hover or it would table what else they have.
If not playing maelstrom it's a different matter. Especially if playing unit VPs.

I'd fight that with Elysians, personally. Drop the Valks in, suicide-melta out the artillery, and spend the rest of the game in the air saturation bombing the infantry before dropping into hover mode with Objective Secured Valkyries at the end of the game.

Tbf it would take 18 bs4 or 24 bs3 melta shots on average to silence a rapier battery (needs 8 wounds, 12 hits, 18/24 shots). And 24.75 bs4 or 33 bs3 melta shots to take 11 wounds off the earth shakers. That means it would on average require 132.75 bs4 melta shots to silence 6 rapier batteries and one earth shaker battery, that's not including the wyverns. Also, if you invest heavily in air support for any army, then the 60 mutants and 36 OS spawn (plus 3 command squads) will massively out score you on objectives and very likely kill all your ground forces, especially with the artillery support.

The whole perfect imbalance thing is crap, imo. It is an excuse for poor game design.

I always strive for an all comers list in competitive play.
Striving for perfection. Why not.

There is no list that is unbeatable, and the dice gods can always choose to screw you (no matter how good your list and how good you play, it matters not if your dice fail).

That said, there have been lists throughout 40k's lifetime that have simply been powerful enough such that if you roll even relatively below average, you'll probably achieve victory over a superior general simply by having so many odds in your favor that it's difficult to overcome them (or removing steps where failure is a possibility).

There's almost always a scissors to the papers. Wave Serpents are obscenely overpowered against most units in the game, but once the magnificent bastard Sicaran appears...

 Ashiraya wrote:
There's almost always a scissors to the papers. Wave Serpents are obscenely overpowered against most units in the game, but once the magnificent bastard Sicaran appears...

I think it's mainly why many competetive Eldar players are against FW. As FW offers the most obvious counters to serp spam. That and the fact they don't need FW for extremely cost effective units.

Forge World is in and of itself a bad idea. Thats why they're againt Forge World. Lol.