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First off, I would like to introduce myself to you, dear DakkaDakka society. Veskern - more fluffy than crunchy kind of player in "social" games (and a bit more crunchy in online), writing to you from Poland.

Problem is - from the very start of my Warhammer 40k hobby experience (since 2011 it is) I wasn't sure what kinda army I even wanted to play (was drag into this by friend). My first choice Was CSM, for a simple reason - it was quite cheap army, with relatively good fluff and feel, and, most importantly to me, it wasn't the most popular and overplayed stuff on tables (I didin't want to be Special Snowflake, but I wasn't appealed by being just another sheep in the PA herd). Problems were after the first year for me, struggling equally with painting and gameplay itself (don't know why, their rules were just not my cup of tea) - then, I sold them, and wanted to change to something at least more playable.

From the middle of 2012 till the end of my struggling (middle of 2014) I tried, not exaggerating, five or six armies, and wasted a TON of money, time, and vigour - BA/DA/SW/SM/Tau/Orks.. Tried them, and at every time I just... couldn't find myself exactly in the army that I choose and thought that it "looks like The One for me". Every time I got them, assembled them, sometimes painted them, played a little, and sold - with a loss (as always it is) both to my wallet and my nerves. And this is why I registered and wrote to you - so you could help me, somehow, stop my self-destructing takes on this hobby. And maybe some of you will say that perhaps Warhammer 40k is just not my place and I got little chance in hooking to something. Well, I love 40k Universe, especially in computer games, as Dawn of War series is probably one of the very few RTS strategies that I love. Same goes with books - I absolutely loved Flight of the Eisenstein and Xenos. Painting models - as well, liked it as hell in case of LOTR minis when I was 14.

Since some time I am thinking about either Grey Knights, or Dark Eldars. GK appeal to me as they were the first army I was interested in when entering 40k (but at that time EVERYONE were playing them due to new minis and so codex) - Inquisitors, awesome weapons, cool looking models and Terminator Armors. Only reason why It isn't my golden shot is my previous experience with PA Loyalist armies - tried ALL the Codexes, and none of them fully kitted my taste, either by lack of character, not appealing models, or just rather unfun gameplay. Second choice, Dark Eldar - well, in their case I am just hyped by them being very one-of-a-kind army, with very unique rules, awesome vechicles, very appealing models, and just their evil and twisted nature. But, if you got something different on your mind - write it of course.

About my tastes - well, since now I can easily say that I'd like to be more Close Quarters focused rather than shoot everything from the opposite corner of the map, have not-that-expensive army (costs of IG, Eldars and Nids were huge NOPE for me), and have army which requires actual tactics instead of just proper army list and positioning before game.

Whole situation is just infuriating, both to me, my gf, and my friends who cannot play, or do not even want to play anymore because I can't make up my goddamn mind and PICK ONE. It is 2015 damnit, and it's time for some changes for me, and actually take one, leave the rest alone, and focus on my choice.

So, will you help me, dear users ?

I have 2 armies, marines which I use as count as for whatever chapter I want :p and a budding IG list. (Also T-sons) so there may be something to using two armies however, I suggest to you dark eldar, I hate there fluff but they are an strong close quarter army with good shooting and good CC and require proper panning and maneuvering to use at the top efficiency.

From what I've read Grey Knights are very strong but trade off in speed and the distance game. So if you want a smash mouth army that can still field plenty of psykers go for it.

Dark Eldar are my favs so far, there are zero psykers unless you ally in Eldar (consider allying in Eldar for jet bike troops and farseers.), DE are a fast hit and run style army with quite a few strong configurations. As the above poster said they can actually be a threat in cc with stuff like webway portal and enhanced aether sails on a raider to get them there.

so two totally different styles, my advice go with what struck you first since Grey Knights seem to have left a lasting impression go with them.

Too add on to my first post, I suggest using both GK AND DE. :p play both

Nothing wrong with having more than one army. I would again try proxying or borrowing both armies before you try them out to make sure you like their play. Gks are fun, small count armies that rely on heavy Psychic powers, elite units, and Deepstriking. DE are fast, powerful but fragile units that can do a lot. They have some great CC abilities by running in close and charging from their vehicles, as well as some great Anti Tank via their Lance and Haywire weapons. Both armies are a good choice for tactical play, but again, the main point of the game is to have fun.

I really suggest proxying/borrowing them before you sink money into either army.

^ This too is a good plan

Orks are always an option. while very popular you can use just about ANYTHING as a model as long as you make it orky. Plus orks are orks, who cares about being another in a crowd when you could just as easily be orky space pirate captain shineepanz, The most fashoinable pirate of them all.

On a serious note, there is nothing wrong with wanting to play the field.Ffind some people to get together with and try a little of everything. Ive been in since 2009 and i just recently settled on an army.

It sounds a little bit like maybe you don't actually like the game very much! lol

It took me a while to settle on which Space Marine chapter to use, but surely you should know what appeals to you by now?

Warden - I love(d) the gameplay itself, trust me - both on Tutorial games made with my friends (pre-made 500pts of IG vs Tau, immersion was excellent!), and at the beggining of my CSM experience - when I just wanted to learn how to play and didin't mind that I was rarely winning xD.. And of course when Centric Khorne army Was something useful and I could do something with it (Kharn, Lord with Wings and Daemon Blade, Zerkers and LR - that was the stuff!).

What appeals to my taste? Well, as I said - from my books/games/40karound things I can say that I really had good time while playing Dark Eldar (in DoW1 they were just simply amazing, despite a bit odd-looking armors), Chaos Space Marines (my favourite and most competent choice both in DoW1 and DoW2) and reading books like Eisenstein or Vengeful Spirit (because Garro was badass).

About Orks - I know that, but still, their hordy gameplay and very little GRIMDARK (the main reason why I like 40k so much) makes this race a bit meh to me.

And I know about playing two armies, but second spot is already taken - since I started being interested in 40k I promised to myself that I'll make little detachement (1000-1500) of Sisters of Battle - with ridiculous pinky-sweety-Hello-Kitty scheme and looks xD

I tried playing proxies with both already - GK seem veeeery fun, especially with their Psychic abilities and awesome CC skills (more killy than Zerkers, holy hell !), but truth is they are rather slow - which means, again, that tabling and deploment itself is 3/4 of a game and rest depends only on dice rolls and Army List. On the second hand Dark Eldar's lack of Psychic is somewhat painful (but rules of Combat Drugs, Power from Pain and jaw-dropping models all around make up that problem for me).

And about fluff - both are equally enjoyable to me, with very little advantage of GK (because, again, Garro was badass).

So - which will do better in your opinion ?

Seems you read fluff than buy stuff than play it on TT and dislike how they perform. Than switch. Why not playtest it without actually buying models in the first place? Find some people with the army you want to collect, play with/against this army. Or at least try playing in vassal if you have problems with time or finding models.

1. Buy used
2. Sell used
3. Don't lose anything but time (which is money but you know ...)


With regards to actually picking an army, you need to have a precise playstyle and play level in mind.

For example, I like agility, using smart tricks, kiting, Crowd Control, Healing and quite a few other things.

That's why I started with a Druid, and then a Mage in WoW.

In 40K, it was pretty easy because the most beautiful line of models by far was Eldar, and they have always been a mobile and tricky army.

In the past, they were playable in competition, and now they're even top tier so that's great.





For you, you must start with the kind of playstyle you really enjoy, and CC is a good start.

Then you need to figure out whether you'd rather have an elite or mass army, if money is a big concern it's going to have to be elite.

Lastly, you need to pick a play level. Not everything is competitive, and what's competitive changes all the time. If you don't intend to play competitively, any codex is fine. If you intend to play competitively, you have to realize that some editions will just favor another playstyle over yours, or another codex than the one you've been working on.



At this point in time, I think Orks unbound or multiple CAD is by far the best and most fun CC army.

Either player biker SM with some melee support ally units or play GK. GK are either based around a formation that drops in close and shunting NDKs. offten those are supported by centurions .

Personally, I don't think you need to settle on "just one" army for ever and ever. It's not a marriage.

You "only" need to settle on one army at a time (for sanity's sake).

If ... say ... Grey Knights strike your fancy, do Grey Knights and make 2015 your Grey Knights year. Build a Grey Knight force that looks good, is reasonably painted, fully based, reasonable on the battlefield and finish that project!

It doesn't mean you'll never ever in your life collect ... say ... Dark Eldar... it just means you wont collect Dark Eldar this year (or maybe two years).

If you are looking for the "perfect" army (or perfect game, as it is) that ticks all your needs for the rest of eternity.... it doesn't exist.

Build one thing, finish it, play it. Set yourself deadlines and goals for painting, etc.. . And know that you, at some point, will be able to move on to a different project in a planned, organised manner.

Wonderwolf - amen to that, but still..

I know, that is why I said about SoB earlier - at length I'd like to have two or three Wh40k armies, each for, let's say, 2-3k points. But problem lies in the fact that I just want to stop making these same mistakes about choosing these armies.

And, as I also said, I tested both armies on proxies - and playing both was fun, but... I felt a bit better while trying Dark Eldar, mainly because a fact that you need to use actual tactics, positioning, cover, and smart shooting/charging instead of rolling dices and making saves left and right (and Raider/Venom transports look just awesome). But in the exchange I lose any Psychic abilities and have to deal with extremely strict and hardcore rules of DE Codex.

Unfortunately, cash is important to me, this is why I wasn't even thinking about expensive armies like IG, Eldar or Nids - and maybe I don't want to stick to the cheapest armies ever, but also don't want to load a whole bucket of cash into single, not that big army.

Eventually, third option that sometimes haunts me is trying to get back to CSM (plus the fact that one of local stores got old Attack Force in quite low price) - but from what I've heard, the "new", 6th edition Codex isn't that wonderful and practically you are forced to play this god damn ugly Heldrake because of it's sheer firepower. And, despite the fact that I got kinda good memories with my first army ever and in DoW2 I always play CSM - I don't think it is good idea to get back into Chaos Forces once again.

And Morgoth showed me on an example of WOW, that he likes Crowd Control, Tricks and Agility, so he chose Mage in WOW, and Eldar in 40k. Well - in my case, in most RPGs it was either Rogue/Thief/Assassin/Hunter - as a guy raised on Thief 1 & 2 and MGS - stealth action, sneaky character, and fast, brutal attack was my game.
I guess it means that Dark Eldar will fit it perfectly, amirite? xD

Veskern wrote:
Wonderwolf - amen to that, but still..

I know, that is why I said about SoB earlier - at length I'd like to have two or three Wh40k armies, each for, let's say, 2-3k points. But problem lies in the fact that I just want to stop making these same mistakes about choosing these armies.

And, as I also said, I tested both armies on proxies - and playing both was fun, but... I felt a bit better while trying Dark Eldar, mainly because a fact that you need to use actual tactics, positioning, cover, and smart shooting/charging instead of rolling dices and making saves left and right (and Raider/Venom transports look just awesome). But in the exchange I lose any Psychic abilities and have to deal with extremely strict and hardcore rules of DE Codex.

Unfortunately, cash is important to me, this is why I wasn't even thinking about expensive armies like IG, Eldar or Nids - and maybe I don't want to stick to the cheapest armies ever, but also don't want to load a whole bucket of cash into single, not that big army.

Eventually, third option that sometimes haunts me is trying to get back to CSM (plus the fact that one of local stores got old Attack Force in quite low price) - but from what I've heard, the "new", 6th edition Codex isn't that wonderful and practically you are forced to play this god damn ugly Heldrake because of it's sheer firepower. And, despite the fact that I got kinda good memories with my first army ever and in DoW2 I always play CSM - I don't think it is good idea to get back into Chaos Forces once again.

And Morgoth showed me on an example of WOW, that he likes Crowd Control, Tricks and Agility, so he chose Mage in WOW, and Eldar in 40k. Well - in my case, in most RPGs it was either Rogue/Thief/Assassin/Hunter - as a guy raised on Thief 1 & 2 and MGS - stealth action, sneaky character, and fast, brutal attack was my game.
I guess it means that Dark Eldar will fit it perfectly, amirite? xD

Sounds like you've made your choice. DE don't really suffer from losing Psychic Powers. Yes, they're nice, but Psychic Powers aren't as good as they used to be. I'd say go with DE

Veskern wrote:

And Morgoth showed me on an example of WOW, that he likes Crowd Control, Tricks and Agility, so he chose Mage in WOW, and Eldar in 40k. Well - in my case, in most RPGs it was either Rogue/Thief/Assassin/Hunter - as a guy raised on Thief 1 & 2 and MGS - stealth action, sneaky character, and fast, brutal attack was my game.
I guess it means that Dark Eldar will fit it perfectly, amirite? xD

Dark Eldar are stealthy, sneaky, brutal and fast - a lot more than any other army out there.

Just know beforehand that it's a tricky army to play, it doesn't "just work" like Space Marines in the hands of a beginner.

morgoth wrote:


Dark Eldar are stealthy, sneaky, brutal and fast - a lot more than any other army out there.

Just know beforehand that it's a tricky army to play, it doesn't "just work" like Space Marines in the hands of a beginner.

Well, to be honest, this is also good info for me, for two reasons :
1. I really couldn't ever find myself in PA Loyalist armies, like I've said before.
2. Armies that "just work" by themselves are not my cup of tea, because I actually like to use tactics, proper positioning, and to work an angle instead of just properly deploying and rolling dice like crazy xD

Thanks to you, decision made - Dark Eldar, sneaky, deadly and brutal
I guess the best start (for about 150$) will be Shardstorm, additional Venom, and spare box of Kabalite Warriors - in that way I'll have good CC HQ, two Venoms with Wyches, a Raider with Kabalites, and 6 Reavers - should do just fine on low point games, right ?

OP, I understand the need to find an army that fits into your kind of likes, it is all about being able to look at these things for hours at a time.

Dark Eldar I think of more like a Pirate means of warfare: hit hard and fast and get out of there before they retaliate (glass canon).
Venom's with True-born make for hard hitting mobile gunships for poisoning the heck out of things.
With the grotesques and other models they are getting into the high toughness close quarters combat as well.
Fluff-wise I am unsure they are the good fit, they are more about being sly/evil than stealthy, they are sadists where slaves are their currency.

Your interests in video games and characters in particular are about the same as mine.

My first army was chaos, I have enough for each god to be able to war amongst each other.
I moved on, but tend to use them as my spare.

My "core" is the Inquisition, elite models that tend to do whatever it takes to achieve their goals.
I think of them the same as like a Van Helsing, doing away with what is "wrong" in the universe.
I usually ally with the Black Templar since they are fanatical insane space marines.
I dabbled in Imperial Guard / Astra Militarium as a conscripted force to call on when quantity is the quality needed.
I then had a few Grey Knights because they look cool and are stylish with an Inquisitor.

Black Templar lend themselves well with a Drop-Pod assault which is my equivalent of being sneaky: going where they are needed.
Scouts can still be fielded with a skimmer option or just infiltrate.

Storm Troopers / Kasrkin / Militarium Tempestus can be 5 man squad deep-strike units used to assassinate whatever metal beast that has to die.

Grey Knights have pretty much made teleporting their thing...

All in all, only you know what you like.
Buy ONE squad, assemble and paint.
Read the codex, be sure the look and play of the army is appealing.

I found eventually I was most happy with how my Black Templar looked as I came up with a consistent scheme for them and find I keep coming back to them for their look and play.
They are also my most fully painted force but the HUGE amount of fully painted IG/AM army I have is slowly making it a tie.

Way back when, I sold my Tau and gave to a cousin my Eldar.
I have no regrets other than OF COURSE the two armies I get rid of are the powerful / cheesiest now.

Please also look at other popular gaming systems: the dissatisfaction you may feel could be game mechanics rather than the models / army themselves.

I think you might want to switch games. You've already tried a broad spectrum and if you're still not having fun, time to stop wasting time and money and find something you'll actually like.

Veskern wrote:

morgoth wrote:


Dark Eldar are stealthy, sneaky, brutal and fast - a lot more than any other army out there.

Just know beforehand that it's a tricky army to play, it doesn't "just work" like Space Marines in the hands of a beginner.

Well, to be honest, this is also good info for me, for two reasons :
1. I really couldn't ever find myself in PA Loyalist armies, like I've said before.
2. Armies that "just work" by themselves are not my cup of tea, because I actually like to use tactics, proper positioning, and to work an angle instead of just properly deploying and rolling dice like crazy xD

Thanks to you, decision made - Dark Eldar, sneaky, deadly and brutal
I guess the best start (for about 150$) will be Shardstorm, additional Venom, and spare box of Kabalite Warriors - in that way I'll have good CC HQ, two Venoms with Wyches, a Raider with Kabalites, and 6 Reavers - should do just fine on low point games, right ?

The best start would be ebay, you're sure to find opportunities at 50% off, considering the power level of Dark Eldar.

But that list you talked about seems acceptable, with too much HQ points though, I don't know if there's much more to DE HQ than AP2 Succubus with Wyches.

 MWHistorian wrote:
I think you might want to switch games. You've already tried a broad spectrum and if you're still not having fun, time to stop wasting time and money and find something you'll actually like.

I already thought about it, that 40k or tabletop gaming at all is not just my place. Last half of year was with no 40k absolutely - modelling, painting, playing, whatever. But truth is, that after the time.. damn, i miss it all. The game, models, painting itself. But I can assure that it is my last take on with Warhammer 40 000 - this is why I wrote here, told a bit of my 40k story and need an advice or two to stop it. And this trying spectrum at least showed me that I am no-go with Loyal SM armies, and I just need more actual tactics rather than just deploying and shooting. Sure, I thought, for example, about WHFB and Warriors of Chaos would be my 100% first pick for sure (spent ton of hours playing them in Mark of Chaos), but first off, it is MUCH less popular in my area and barely anyone plays it, and second I think I just preffer Sci-fi setting. Maybe, perhaps, some day I'll create WoC - but my priority will be 40k.


Morgoth, about HQ - in Shardstorm there is exactly Succubus, this great-looking fancy plastic model, I think her points value clocks around 100 or less pts.


Talizvar - Exatcly.
And I don't mind either them being glass cannon (it is what forces you to use actual tactics), or, particulary, evil, as I always preffered playing the baddies (and this is also why I chose CSM years ago). And your army seems very cool, very well-considered, and just perfectly fitting your taste And I got nothing against game mechanic, damn, it was the WHFB which was dissed so much by my friends that I myself seen it a bit more boring and less dynamic.

well most DE armies aren't that much glass cannons as they run eldar ally. And neither serpents, nor Wright Knights are weak units.

Makumba wrote:
well most DE armies aren't that much glass cannons as they run eldar ally. And neither serpents, nor Wright Knights are weak units.

Hardly seems fair to throw that in, trying to discuss on it's own merits.
BUT yes, the allies thing is pretty common now for reducing the weakness of any given army.

Makumba wrote:
well most DE armies aren't that much glass cannons as they run eldar ally. And neither serpents, nor Wright Knights are weak units.

I've heard and read the same, but, at least for now, I'd like to stay clear from combining Detachements and races and focus on one at a time. Plus the fact that I really really don't find generic Eldar appealing, so anyway I doubt that I'll ever Ally them with any army

You have a common problem, and not one unique to 40k. Most people go through periods of their life with the same approach to marriage or finding a career. What you want is something that's already perfect, or at least really good, and then you want to hold onto it as it is.

That's not how life works. Not for these kinds of things. It gets you army hopping in 40k, just like how it gets you dating a bunch of different people without settling down, or working lots of crappy jobs that don't go anywhere.

The secret is not to find your unchangeable precious. Instead, what you want to do is to pick something that's good enough that you can see a lot of room for growth. Something that you can stick with in the long term, regardless of how it changes, even if it might change for the worse.

Because when you're treating yourself and the army you're looking for as immutable, you're constantly going to be shifting like this. But you change, and so does, in this case, armies.

What will probably help you the most is to ask yourself which army you're most likely going to want to play even if something changes drastically for the worse. Which army would you like to play even if they get a new codex and their power level goes in the toilet? Which army would you like to play, even if a new codex comes by and changes their playstyle? Which army would you be willing to ignore bad new fluff?

You need to start thinking about which army you're willing to commit to, regardless of whatever flights of fancy or changes in circumstances happen to arise. Something "good enough" that you can grow into and change with over time.

Something to break you out of the cycle of "what brings me the most euphoria right this instant?" and gives you a longer-term focus.

Until you can do that, you're going to be stuck hopping.

 Ailaros wrote:
You have a common problem, and not one unique to 40k. Most people go through periods of their life with the same approach to marriage or finding a career. What you want is something that's already perfect, or at least really good, and then you want to hold onto it as it is.

That's not how life works. Not for these kinds of things. It gets you army hopping in 40k, just like how it gets you dating a bunch of different people without settling down, or working lots of crappy jobs that don't go anywhere.

The secret is not to find your unchangeable precious. Instead, what you want to do is to pick something that's good enough that you can see a lot of room for growth. Something that you can stick with in the long term, regardless of how it changes, even if it might change for the worse.

Because when you're treating yourself and the army you're looking for as immutable, you're constantly going to be shifting like this. But you change, and so does, in this case, armies.

What will probably help you the most is to ask yourself which army you're most likely going to want to play even if something changes drastically for the worse. Which army would you like to play even if they get a new codex and their power level goes in the toilet? Which army would you like to play, even if a new codex comes by and changes their playstyle? Which army would you be willing to ignore bad new fluff?

You need to start thinking about which army you're willing to commit to, regardless of whatever flights of fancy or changes in circumstances happen to arise. Something "good enough" that you can grow into and change with over time.

Something to break you out of the cycle of "what brings me the most euphoria right this instant?" and gives you a longer-term focus.

Until you can do that, you're going to be stuck hopping.

Exalt a hundred times for your statement, Mister. This is changing some things to me. I'll rethink then, read some more fluff/tactica/rules and so on, then I'll make a decision which one is most likely to stay in my hobby - no matter what will change in the future in Power Level or Fluff ridicoulusness

You could do what i usually do when i ant make a choice. Leave it up to the roll of the dice. Either as it rolls you will realize what you want (by what you want the result to be) or it will be decided by fate.

Ailaros points out a reasonable approach.

I think the armies I settled on is a Yin-Yang approach: I like the contrasting CSM vs Inquisition fanaticism. Both groups have equally appalling methods with opposite viewpoints.

I think Dark Eldar are opposites to Tau. Torture / Individuality vs Teamwork / greater good. Could be similar with Orks: chaotic tribalism brutality vs organization and tech.

Eldar and Necron: Life (they grow their tech) and Death.

Tyranids and Orks: one mind, driven by hunger vs individuals and joy of fighting.

Plenty of room for growth and I find it allows for a history or narrative between those two armies so you can have your own fluff.

Mandulis: Rolling dice to choose your army is soooo 7th edition thinking...

Besides from Ailaros points which is correct

just feth it and buy all the armies so you never have this issue

 Desubot wrote:
Besides from Ailaros points which is correct

just feth it and buy all the armies so you never have this issue

Trust me, if I've ever won on a lottery, I'd probably buy at least 4 armies and problem would be gone xD

But coming back to subject and following from Ailaros, I've found also one option that both pleases my playstyle, doesn't seem to be downright bad, and can somehow mix what I like most in DE and GK.

How about Raven's Guard? I mean, I never tried anything in SM Codex outside of Fists (which was no pleasing at all), and option with Shrike + Vanguards + Assault Marines + some Drop Pods on Troops seem to perfectly fit it all - my taste in army that requiers actual tactics instead of rolling all the time, very CC Focused army, fits my taste in "stealthy" characteristics and playstyle (as Raven's Guard are basically Guerilla), and got sweet looking models that are hyping me quite well (especially Vanguard ones, with amazing weapons).

I guess it seems as great option, don't you think ?