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Maybe it's regional. Almost every job I've had has had some kind of interest in restricting employee's private lives. I know at one point simply identifying myself as an employee of my employer was a firing offence. Posting embarrassing facebook photos, too.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Not sure what the word filter will do here, but let's give it a go:

Cis is the '[see forum posting rules]' of Tumblr.

A small subsection of Tumblr. You keep on making these statements as if everyone on Tumbr is conspiring against the Cis scum and hates everything that white people stand for, and it's a tiny minority. You're sitting, looking at the Westboro Baptist Church and deciding that christianity is a lost cause and that any discussion about it shouldn't happen.

PhantomViper wrote:Maybe those people think that even discussing those opinions is equal to giving them a degree of legitimacy that they do not deserve? And that mocking those opinions is the only real way to demonstrate their sheer absurdity in the current world?

Fine, that's their prerogative. It's just that when it happens for every single on of the last who-knows-how-many threads, it gets a bit boring. Besides which, there are rules about being polite and not derailing threads on this forum; if they don't think it's a valid topic of discussion, then they can just not post, I guess? They don't get to decide what other people are allowed to discuss.

Sining wrote:Goliath, those are their opinions. While yours are just to come in and complain about the people who don't feel cultural appropriation is a thing. I mean apparently I wouldn't wear jeans cause Asians certainly didn't invent them. We just mass produce them now

That would be a valid point, if I was only talking about this thread. I'm talking about every single time this sort of topic comes up, the same few people come in with the exact same "Hurr hurr 'Check Your Privelege'" and "There's no discussion to be had here, SJWs just shut down the conversation" posts. I'm fine with them having their opinions that it doesn't exist, what annoys me is them then deciding that since they think it doesn't exist, there should therefore never be discussion of it, so they can just derail any thread that discusses it.

My current employer could not care less what I post on the internet. As long as it is not code I intend to sell later.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
Not only does it hurt people's understanding of the culture in question, but it enriches us at their expense.

Prove it. I'm serious. Show how brading one's hair (or eating the food of another culture, or learning another language, or dressing in clothing from another culture) enriches "us" at the expense of the "other"?

Okay, how about the appropriation of Native American culture for the purposes of American media?
Hollywood made millions off of popularisation of the image of Native Americans as savages with weird rituals. Hollywood gets rich, Native Americans get a free negative stereotype.

Or the inbalance in the popularisation of traditionally "black" music? Rap and R&B music has always been considered to be african-american music, and yet if you look at the results of the billboard awards last year, the top rap artist was Eminem, the top rap song was by Macklemore and Ryan Lewis, and the top R&B song was by Robin Thicke. As HiveFleetPlastic described, the dominant culture (in this case the music industry) takes a thing that traditionally belongs to another culture, packages it up for the dominant culture to enjoy, and the other culture loses out.

Am I saying that this is going to cause a global apocalypse? No. But this sort of thing is still somewhat of an issue.

 Goliath wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
Not only does it hurt people's understanding of the culture in question, but it enriches us at their expense.

Prove it. I'm serious. Show how brading one's hair (or eating the food of another culture, or learning another language, or dressing in clothing from another culture) enriches "us" at the expense of the "other"?

Okay, how about the appropriation of Native American culture for the purposes of American media?
Hollywood made millions off of popularisation of the image of Native Americans as savages with weird rituals. Hollywood gets rich, Native Americans get a free negative stereotype.

Or the inbalance in the popularisation of traditionally "black" music? Rap and R&B music has always been considered to be african-american music, and yet if you look at the results of the billboard awards last year, the top rap artist was Eminem, the top rap song was by Macklemore and Ryan Lewis, and the top R&B song was by Robin Thicke. As HiveFleetPlastic described, the dominant culture (in this case the music industry) takes a thing that traditionally belongs to another culture, packages it up for the dominant culture to enjoy, and the other culture loses out.

Am I saying that this is going to cause a global apocalypse? No. But this sort of thing is still somewhat of an issue.

And a 12 year old girl braiding her hair still does none of this.

And seriously, saying Eminem is stealing from "black culture" is as big a joke as you could make.

 djones520 wrote:


And seriously, saying Eminem is stealing from "black culture" is as big a joke as you could make.

Agreed... I don't listen to cRap, but even I can tell you, just because Eminem or some other white folks won some "rap awards" isn't really indicative of the state of that genre of music.... It just so happens that people who rate that kind of "music" felt that the white kid from one of the worst parts of Detroit happened to have put out the best music that year. And it should really stand out because of just the sheer number of "artists" within that genre that get air time today.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Maybe it's regional. Almost every job I've had has had some kind of interest in restricting employee's private lives. I know at one point simply identifying myself as an employee of my employer was a firing offence. Posting embarrassing facebook photos, too.

Maybe someone should email FFG and see what happens!

Any more arguin about tumblr and about cis, what it means, what it is doing to society, or anything else OT like that, will see the thread locked and a warning issued for spam or OT posting, depending on what is more appropriate for the situation. Similarly, don't make comments that anyone could take as a threat, try and be mature and consider your posts before posting.

Otherwise this seems to have gotten back on topic enough (re: the appropriation of culture) that I'm happy to leave it open for now, just don't take it back to those dark days of the top of this page. No OT posts, try to avoid things that could be seen as threats, and behave or no racism thread for you!

 Goliath wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
Not only does it hurt people's understanding of the culture in question, but it enriches us at their expense.

Prove it. I'm serious. Show how brading one's hair (or eating the food of another culture, or learning another language, or dressing in clothing from another culture) enriches "us" at the expense of the "other"?

Okay, how about the appropriation of Native American culture for the purposes of American media?
Hollywood made millions off of popularisation of the image of Native Americans as savages with weird rituals. Hollywood gets rich, Native Americans get a free negative stereotype.

Are you native American? Or are you being offended for someone else? My own ethnicity has been subject to stereotypes in Hollywood media and I don't complain about it. Heck, back in the 80s, for most HK films, if an angmoh or westerner appeared on screen, they were usually evil and incompetent. Stereotypes exist. You should know considering you pretty much stereotyped me into playing mostly Asian games cause of my ethnicity, or did you conveniently forget that

djones520 wrote:

 Goliath wrote:
Or the inbalance in the popularisation of traditionally "black" music? Rap and R&B music has always been considered to be african-american music, and yet if you look at the results of the billboard awards last year, the top rap artist was Eminem, the top rap song was by Macklemore and Ryan Lewis, and the top R&B song was by Robin Thicke. As HiveFleetPlastic described, the dominant culture (in this case the music industry) takes a thing that traditionally belongs to another culture, packages it up for the dominant culture to enjoy, and the other culture loses out.

Am I saying that this is going to cause a global apocalypse? No. But this sort of thing is still somewhat of an issue.

And a 12 year old girl braiding her hair still does none of this.

I know. It's almost like situation presented in the OP is ridiculous, so I've tried to move past it and have an actual discussion. The situation in the OP is ridiculous, and the people harassing her should be ashamed. That doesn't mean that cultural appropriation isn't a thing though.

And seriously, saying Eminem is stealing from "black culture" is as big a joke as you could make.

For one, I specifically used 'taking' not 'stealing', as there is a difference. Either way, those four guys aren't the be all and end all of it. There's a fair bit of upset in the rap community at the moment about the fact that Iggy Azalea and Macklemore are two of the most popular rappers at the moment in the context of general popular music, when black artists don't get that sort of popularity.

Sining wrote:

 Goliath wrote:
Okay, how about the appropriation of Native American culture for the purposes of American media?
Hollywood made millions off of popularisation of the image of Native Americans as savages with weird rituals. Hollywood gets rich, Native Americans get a free negative stereotype.

Are you native American? Or are you being offended for someone else? My own ethnicity has been subject to stereotypes in Hollywood media and I don't complain about it. Heck, back in the 80s, for most HK films, if an angmoh or westerner appeared on screen, they were usually evil and incompetent. Stereotypes exist. You should know considering you pretty much stereotyped me into playing mostly Asian games cause of my ethnicity, or did you conveniently forget that

At what point did I say I was offended? Why do you always seem to jump to 'offended'? It couldn't be an attempt to frame people's perceived issues as irrational in an attempt to discredit them, could it? Either way, as I seem to have to explain to you over and over again, just because you have no issue with it doesn't mean that no one has an issue with it. Your experiences are not universal, and you do not speak for the experiences of everyone.

Generally in these threads my argument isn't that 'I'm offended' it's that there are other people who take issue with the thing at hand. I personally don't have an issue, but then again I have the privilege (hisssss) of my culture being pretty much everywhere in some form or another. In this particular instance he asked for examples of when cultural appropriation could be bad, so I gave a couple.

You know, seeing as you made some smart-assed comment in that thread about how you were obviously winning the discussion or something by calling me racist, and then disappeared from that thread, I'm just gonna copy/paste my response here, so that you have some hope of actually reading it.
to clarify: saying that someone in Asia will have more Asian-made media (and thus media containing or portraying Asian people) to consume isn't stereotyping, it's just basic common sense.

It kind of is considering I don't watch Asian media. Do you even have any Asian friends in Asia?

Also if you're not offended, why are you complaining so much

Speaking in my official capacity as the King of Debating, it seems pretty obvious to me that Goliath has been sonning almost everyone in this thread.

That said:

 Goliath wrote:
Okay, how about the appropriation of Native American culture for the purposes of American media?
Hollywood made millions off of popularisation of the image of Native Americans as savages with weird rituals. Hollywood gets rich, Native Americans get a free negative stereotype.

Or the inbalance in the popularisation of traditionally "black" music? Rap and R&B music has always been considered to be african-american music, and yet if you look at the results of the billboard awards last year, the top rap artist was Eminem, the top rap song was by Macklemore and Ryan Lewis, and the top R&B song was by Robin Thicke. As HiveFleetPlastic described, the dominant culture (in this case the music industry) takes a thing that traditionally belongs to another culture, packages it up for the dominant culture to enjoy, and the other culture loses out.

Am I saying that this is going to cause a global apocalypse? No. But this sort of thing is still somewhat of an issue.

You started off really well with this post with your Native American example (and I find it likely that your detractors have no valid response toward it), but you fell short with the Rap comparison, at least as far as Eminem is concerned. While you could argue that his whiteness made him easier to market to the casual crowd, Eminem was extremely controversial in his heyday, arguably more-so than the majority of black rappers. The reason he's so popular is because he really is that good.

I may get around to dissecting the sillier posts in this thread later.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sining wrote:
It kind of is considering I don't watch Asian media. Do you even have any Asian friends in Asia?

Also if you're not offended, why are you complaining so much

But it sure is easier to find it in an Asian country.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sining wrote:


Are you native American? Or are you being offended for someone else? My own ethnicity has been subject to stereotypes in Hollywood media and I don't complain about it. Heck, back in the 80s, for most HK films, if an angmoh or westerner appeared on screen, they were usually evil and incompetent. Stereotypes exist. You should know considering you pretty much stereotyped me into playing mostly Asian games cause of my ethnicity, or did you conveniently forget that

Why do you feel that your own subjective experience is the only one that matters? Are you so selfish?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

As always, it's a matter of degree. In the middle you have normal interaction with other cultures. I go to an Italian restaurant. You visit India. Ouze learns Swahili. Yodhrin learns origami. And so on.

Then you have the two extremes, where people take things from one persons culture, make it their own, and in a way stamp out the culture it came from. This is a very colonialistic (if that's a word) thing. Then you have the opposite extreme, the people who believe that doing anything from any other culture beyond your own is "cultural appropriation", so me going to that Italian restaurant, your visit to India, Ouze's desire to talk Swahili and Yodran's eagerness to fold paper into pretty objects is seen as bad, as wiping away the cultures they're from and, or course, the old standby, racism.

So if you agree that cultural appropriation can indeed be harmful, but that something like this girl braiding her hair isn't, what is your issue in this thread?

Sining wrote:
It kind of is considering I don't watch Asian media. Do you even have any Asian friends in Asia?

What part of 'your experiences aren't universal' don't you understand? Because you keep on responding to statements about general trends by going 'well, I don't do that, so it must be untrue'.

Also if you're not offended, why are you complaining so much

boredom, procrastination from revising, a general dislike of flawed arguments, thinking that maybe middle aged white guys shouldn't be the ones that get to decide what minorities are offended by, a mental challenge, emotional masochism, physical masochism for when I inevitably smack my head against a wall, a genuine hope to maybe somehow clear up people's misconceptions about these sorts of topics, as half of the complaints I see on these threads seem to be made form faulty premises? Pick whichever one you want.

Related note, how come when it's a subject that you agree with it's a valid criticism, but when you disagree it becomes 'being offended' and 'complaining'? My posts in here haven't been intended as complaints, they've been (as I've said a couple of times now) attempts at having an actual discussion. Just because people make comments to the effect of 'why you so offended bro?' Doesn't suddenly mean that I'm actually getting offended.

PhantomViper wrote:


So what you are saying is that racism is only a bad thing if its done by whites? Any other skin colour and you can be racist all you wan't?

This is a straw man fallacy.

So your stereotypes about Asians is OK but others aren't? That's what it reads like to me Goliath. I'm not saying I'm the entirety of Asia but most of the people I know or hang out with don't watch much asian media. Instead we download American shows and Sherlock.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also the irony of telling me that white people don't get to decide what minorities should be offended by is quite hilarious.

Sining wrote:
So your stereotypes about Asians is OK but others aren't?

This is also a straw man fallacy.

Sining wrote:
So your stereotypes about Asians is OK but others aren't? That's what it reads like to me Goliath. I'm not saying I'm the entirety of Asia but most of the people I know or hang out with don't watch much asian media. Instead we download American shows and Sherlock.

You know I've said that it's not limited to Asian people? It's not limited to Asian people. I'm not sure how it can be a stereotype if it applies to every single culture at the same time. The majority of media that's easily available in any area will be the stuff that's made in that area. In the UK it's easier to get UK made media, in the US it's easier to get US made media, same for Mexico, Brazil, China, India, China, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, pretty much everywhere other than the arctic.

Also the irony of telling me that white people don't get to decide what minorities should be offended by is quite hilarious.

Why? I'm not telling minorities what they should and should not be offended by, I'm telling people here to stop making that decision for them.

If you aren't upset by this then fine, that's your prerogative, but that doesn't change the fact that there are other people that *are* annoyed by it. I'm trying to point out you that those people exist.

People will be offended by anything. This doesn't mean it's a valid thing to be offended about.

Also your argument isn't that it's easier. It's that Asians consume majority Asian media, especially with regards to games.

It's a pretty spurious argument to say that were meant to be living in multicultural countries but some minorities get to pick up their ball and leave if somebody does it "better". "Better" in the sense that they get some pointless awards or get more money? Is that how you judge how valuable your culture is? Are they just wanting the profits from shilling their own culture?

It's like saying Michael Bay is the pinnacle of cinema because he makes a lot of money, some people will see it that way but others will not. People will water down and plastic up anything they can turn a profit on.

If anybody is to blame it's marketing executives and those in the media. Not some little girl braiding her hair or some kids that listen to Iggy Azaelia instead of Azaelia Banks.

This argument is about consumerism, but please feel free to turn it into another race/class war.

Sining wrote:
People will be offended by anything. This doesn't mean it's a valid thing to be offended about.

Also your argument isn't that it's easier. It's that Asians consume majority Asian media, especially with regards to games.

Is it? Oh, thank you for telling me what the argument I'm making is, I was unaware that it was the argument that you wanted to argue against, and not the one that I was actually making.

To recap:

 Goliath wrote:
I'm sure plenty of non-white males play games, but I'm fairly sure that you're probably the dominant race in your country and so many games will be made with you as the target, which won't be the case for non-white males or non-males in Sweden.

The important part of this sentence has been underlined. It doesn't mean that you play them or that you're forced to buy them. It literally just means that more is made, and so more is easily available.

I would add that you're really selling this whole "asia" thing. At the point that I made the original comment, all I knew was that you were, in your own words, a "non-whitem[a]n". I didn't know you were asian until later on in the thread.

Your argument is only as good as you make it. If you can't convey your intentions well enough, there's no need to blame others

Also check the flag at the side of the profile. And then check what games came out from Singapore


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And considering you're the one who wants to bring up me being the majority in my country and then you don't want me to mention it in response


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I'm sorry if my being Asian offends you. Maybe you'd prefer it if I was white? I'd fit in your stereotypes more easily then

Sining wrote:
Your argument is only as good as you make it. If you can't convey your intentions well enough, there's no need to blame others

Also check the flag at the side of the profile. And then check what games came out from Singapore

You misconstrued the very first post I made in that thread, and I then spent the next four pages explaining how you had misunderstood it. At that point it's not me not conveying it well enough, it's just you being purposely obtuse.

And considering you're the one who wants to bring up me being the majority in my country and then you don't want me to mention it in response

I didn't say that I don't want you to mention it in response. I said that the fact that you keep on saying it as if I have some hate-on for Asian people, when I didn't even know you were Asian when you made the comment is getting a bit boring.

Also I'm sorry if my being Asian offends you. Maybe you'd prefer it if I was white? I'd fit in your stereotypes more easily then

Oh cool, so now we've gotten to the "LOL UR RACIST" stage of proceedings.

At what point have I said that you being Asian offends me? At what point have I implied, inferred on construed anything that would hint at that?

 Goliath wrote:
Okay, how about the appropriation of Native American culture for the purposes of American media?.

Or the culture of the Greeks to make the movie 300, which is wildly inaccurate (not to mention dissing the Persians)

or James bond movies for appropriating British culture, then Americanizing it, then appropriating American culture?

or for the movie Canadian bacon, for appropriating and making fun of Canadian culture?

for skyrim and the Scandinavians,

so on, and so forth.


Pretty much every single story archetype from any culture in history has, or can have, a story/film/ect made about it.

Pretty much every single film/book/ect draws from something, somewhere, and exaggerates stuff to one extreme or the other.


Your Idea of cultural appropriation equates to running around screaming

"ITS MINE ITS MINE I WONT SHARE IDEAS AND CULTURE!"


As if ideas and cultures were cookies that were finite and consumable instead of ideas, or culture, which is arguably *meant* to be spread and shared.

 easysauce wrote:
As if ideas and cultures were cookies that were finite and consumable instead of ideas, or culture, which is arguably *meant* to be spread and shared.

There's a difference between being spread and shared, and being taken and overridden though. The example I gave wasn't native american people spreading their culture, it was hollywood deciding that it looked cool, exporting a bastardised version of it, and ending up with the hollywood version of Native culture being the one that most people know, with them being portrayed as savages. Besides which, in the examples you gave, just because it's happened many times doesn't mean that it's a good thing.

On any note, I have an exam in a day an a half, and I'm behind on my revision, so at this point I'm going to bow out of the thread. There's obviously nothing that can be said that will convince you guys, and I'm not particularly a fan of being called a racist over and over again, so I'm out.

On the topic of rap, Eminem has talent and isn't an asshat, while Kanye West has crappy music and is the biggest piece of gak in the music biz (his insults of Taylor Swift at the awards prove all I need). If they flip flopped skin colors and Eminem became black and Kanye became white, I'd still call Eminem decent and Kanye a piece of gak. Skin color shouldn't ever matter. The character of the person in question should be the only thing that matters. This isn't 1960, people. Can't everyone just fething play nice?

You're continually implying that the mainstream media is healthy and that minorities are somehow the only ones being misrepresented or generalised by them.

It's not about White people. It's about mainstream media and mass marketing.

Having a go at the wrong people. It's class war with a little bit of racial garnish.

Sining wrote:
So what you're saying is you need a safe space on a public internet forum where people aren't allowed to disagree or mock you.

You might want to try actually reading people's posts before you say stuff like this. Just because we're in a public internet forum doesn't mean we have to act like monkeys flinging our own crap at each other when we disagree.

PhantomViper wrote:

 Goliath wrote:

Sining wrote:
So what you're saying is you need a safe space on a public internet forum where people aren't allowed to disagree or mock you.

Because, as always, it must come down to 'we're all so offended' and not 'we're trying to have a civilised discussion and you* keep on contributing with the intellectual equivalent of running into a room, farting and running away'.

I'm more than open to hearing other people's opinions, it's why I come into these threads time and time again. The issue is when there's an attempt at hearing one another's opinions, and 'certain posters' 'contribute' by making posts that consist entirely of asinine buzzwords, making comments about people being needlessly offended when they object to something, or generally try to shut the discussion down, not because they disagree with people's argument, but because in their opinion there shouldn't be a discussion at all.

That's why these threads always end badly.



*you is in the plural here, it is not aimed specifically at Sining.

Maybe those people think that even discussing those opinions is equal to giving them a degree of legitimacy that they do not deserve? And that mocking those opinions is the only real way to demonstrate their sheer absurdity in the current world?

Then such people would be extremely foolish. If you're unwilling to engage with your opposition, not only will you fail to persuade those who hold the most radical variations of the opinion you disagree with, but you will find yourself ill-equipped to persuade moderates or people who hold their opinion out of ignorance of certain facts. Of course, just mocking people is a lot less efforty, and has the added benefit that you'll never run the risk you might find yourself somewhat persuaded by an opponent and have to go through the uncomfortable process of changing your mind.

 Medium of Death wrote:

This argument is about consumerism, but please feel free to turn it into another race/class war.

It's impossible to discuss consumerism thoroughly without also discussing class; consumerism depends on conspicuous consumption to sustain itself, and conspicuous consumption requires ever greater income and capital disparity in order to function.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:

This argument is about consumerism, but please feel free to turn it into another race/class war.

It's impossible to discuss consumerism thoroughly without also discussing class; consumerism depends on conspicuous consumption to sustain itself, and conspicuous consumption requires ever greater income and capital disparity in order to function.

I'd agree that it serves to eventually create a new massive underclass. I'm meaning more currently bickering about stupid gak like cultural appropriation is a distraction from the real topic at hand and making people fight over a very small amount of money/influence/power while the real wealth and power stays at the very top. Nobody is going to be able to stand up to international finance fething up the world if they manage to fracture the 99.9% so successfully that nobody agrees on anything and we all bicker over the branded goods rather than attacking the people that are branding them.

Sometimes that gets shout down as "eat the Rich", "You're jealous" etc type argument but that's not the case. I don't hate the rich, I'm just wary that they are getting ever wealthier and exerting more influence with no regard for nations or there people. I think most people would need to be fairly warped to see that as I bad thing. (Last bit not directed at yourself, just more generally).

 Medium of Death wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:

This argument is about consumerism, but please feel free to turn it into another race/class war.

It's impossible to discuss consumerism thoroughly without also discussing class; consumerism depends on conspicuous consumption to sustain itself, and conspicuous consumption requires ever greater income and capital disparity in order to function.

I'd agree that it serves to eventually create a new massive underclass. I'm meaning more currently bickering about stupid gak like cultural appropriation is a distraction from the real topic at hand and making people fight over a very small amount of money/influence/power while the real wealth and power stays at the very top. Nobody is going to be able to stand up to international finance fething up the world if they manage to fracture the 99.9% so successfully that nobody agrees on anything and we all bicker over the branded goods rather than attacking the people that are branding them.

Sometimes that gets shout down as "eat the Rich", "You're jealous" etc type argument but that's not the case. I don't hate the rich, I'm just wary that they are getting ever wealthier and exerting more influence with no regard for nations or there people. I think most people would need to be fairly warped to see that as I bad thing. (Last bit not directed at yourself, just more generally).

Ah, just my misunderstanding then, I agree almost entirely.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
On the topic of rap, Eminem has talent and isn't an asshat, while Kanye West has crappy music and is the biggest piece of gak in the music biz (his insults of Taylor Swift at the awards prove all I need). If they flip flopped skin colors and Eminem became black and Kanye became white, I'd still call Eminem decent and Kanye a piece of gak. Skin color shouldn't ever matter. The character of the person in question should be the only thing that matters. This isn't 1960, people. Can't everyone just fething play nice?

Kanye is a jerk but it would be dishonest to say Kanye is a crappy rapper (The College Dropout and The Late Registration are great albums).