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AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Sergeant Horse wrote:
By the way, tables fees do not work. They are a deathknell for a store. So with that being off the table, what do you do to pay for this place to play? Or do you just use it until it's gone and then wonder what happened.

I dunno, the store near me seemed to do okay charging clubs to use the store tables in the evening and charging entrance fees to tournaments, and I think for the most part only a fraction of people who buy in a store use the tables casually anyway. I think you could do fees in a way that doesn't hurt your customer base too much (though certainly you could be stupid about it and do it in a way that does ).

The funny thing is, in all this, nobody has actually posted exactly WHAT they expect a store to offer (besides matching online prices which is a no go) to make them support local otyher than what I posted above

I'm pretty sure I did mention it somewhere... to support my local store they need to be competitively priced and located in a convenient place so that I'm not going out of my way. Not price matched, but just competitive, my FLGS has ~12% discount on GW prices which doesn't match or beat online prices but it's good enough for me to go there for the convenience of being able to grab stuff on my way home from work.

Typically I'm not going to go to a store, see a product, then go home and buy online just to save myself a few bucks, though I will if it's a decent amount of money like on a bulk purchase. So maybe if there were sign above the counter "Ask about discounts on bulk products!" I might be more inclined to do that as well. But the fact is I don't usually buy bulk any more because I already have too many models, so whether I buy from my local store or buy online mostly comes down to availability, none of the local stores stock much WW2 stuff and that's mostly what I've bought recently, so it's all come from online.

So good location and good stock? That's reasonable. A store should have good stock. There's actually some people who make the point that inventory kills a business, but in hobby sales, it's a must.

As to the discount, 10%-15% overall is fine, and offering bigger for bigger purchases is possible. Though you have to remember, if you spend $100 in a store, about $15 of that is actual profit after costs, so that 10% discount is 66% of the profit gone.



I wonder is it a national thing then. You're in Australia (?), I only know that here in the US, charging for tables leads to much teeth gnashing

 Sergeant Horse wrote:
I wonder is it a national thing then. You're in Australia (?), I only know that here in the US, charging for tables leads to much teeth gnashing

I'm sure if varies across both countries. I imagine in cities with smaller domestic properties people would be more inclined to pay. In country areas where people have larger houses it's probably harder to get people to pay for tables (but on the flip side the extra store area to have tables probably doesn't cost as much either). I live in a suburban area over here, many people do have the space for tables in their houses, but I'd say most of my gaming mates don't have space for a 6x4 table, maybe a 4x4.

So, how do you feel then about buying some things at the store and some things external? As I said, the issue usually only comes up with very expensive figures or a large bulk purchase. Impulse buys or things like character blisters, even regular unit boxes, I'll often ask my store to order. But if I'm placing a $300 order, I'll save a ton more ordering online than ordering from the store, nevermind the fact that some of the items might not be in stock with the distributor so I won't be able to get them all at once.

WayneTheGame wrote:
So, how do you feel then about buying some things at the store and some things external? As I said, the issue usually only comes up with very expensive figures or a large bulk purchase. Impulse buys or things like character blisters, even regular unit boxes, I'll often ask my store to order. But if I'm placing a $300 order, I'll save a ton more ordering online than ordering from the store, nevermind the fact that some of the items might not be in stock with the distributor so I won't be able to get them all at once.

I don't like it (No store owner would) but I accept it happens and don't begrudge anybody, nor make a big deal about it. However, if you came to me and said, hey man, I'm buying $300 stuff, anything you can do, I'd probably work something out

I wonder is it a national thing then. You're in Australia (?), I only know that here in the US, charging for tables leads to much teeth gnashing

Really? Again the most popular store in my area charges $5 in store credit to play, and they have a huge following. I am more then happy to pay for a store with good customer service, nice terrain, a large gaming area and an owner who cares.

Go into NYC or the boroughs a lot of places you are lucky if you are only paying $15 for a table that is not store credit.

I think really the business model for local game stores are changing and should change. If you expect to be retail and make money in a online global economy.... you are doing it wrong. You have too much associated risk with vendors like games workshop who can cut you off at any minutes notice and resrict your potential to sell (via online). You have issues with getting enough stock in your store or limited stock in your store (magic or PP).

Honestly you are better off selling the snickers bar. You can always get stock and you don't have issues.

What I am saying is you will see and probably more store owners should look at selling food first (the probably high a higher mark up too) . Creating a great gaming environment.

The shops that seem to do well follow this model with having secondary items such as MTG and 40k as selling points.

Giga bites cafe and Emerald Tavern are two great stores that I know that follow this model.

Darkwynn wrote:


Giga bites cafe and Emerald Tavern are two great stores that I know that follow this model.

I must find this Emerald Tavern, and crush them

 Sergeant Horse wrote:
As to the discount, 10%-15% overall is fine, and offering bigger for bigger purchases is possible. Though you have to remember, if you spend $100 in a store, about $15 of that is actual profit after costs, so that 10% discount is 66% of the profit gone.

Thank you for saying this, Sergeant Horse. The average person who walks into a gaming store has no clue about the margins on GW. They see a $50 boxed set, and assume that the owner is making $25 on that box. It's actually closer to $5.

I wonder is it a national thing then. You're in Australia (?), I only know that here in the US, charging for tables leads to much teeth gnashing

Charging for tables can work, but it has to be done from the start, and it has to work in a way where the staff is not put into an adversarial relationship to the customer: the staff should not be fee collectors. I've never paid for table space, but if it was done correctly, I wouldn't have a problem with a token amount. But again, once I'm paying for a service, I expect the tables to be in good condition and broken terrain to be repaired/replaced. So, is this new expectation and the costs associated with it worth the nominal fee? I don't know.

 the_Armyman wrote:

 Sergeant Horse wrote:
As to the discount, 10%-15% overall is fine, and offering bigger for bigger purchases is possible. Though you have to remember, if you spend $100 in a store, about $15 of that is actual profit after costs, so that 10% discount is 66% of the profit gone.

Thank you for saying this, Sergeant Horse. The average person who walks into a gaming store has no clue about the margins on GW. They see a $50 boxed set, and assume that the owner is making $25 on that box. It's actually closer to $5.

I wonder is it a national thing then. You're in Australia (?), I only know that here in the US, charging for tables leads to much teeth gnashing

Charging for tables can work, but it has to be done from the start, and it has to work in a way where the staff is not put into an adversarial relationship to the customer: the staff should not be fee collectors. I've never paid for table space, but if it was done correctly, I wouldn't have a problem with a token amount. But again, once I'm paying for a service, I expect the tables to be in good condition and broken terrain to be repaired/replaced. So, is this new expectation and the costs associated with it worth the nominal fee? I don't know.

A rewards program could be worthwhile, like I said before. Monthly fee but you get all the table time you want (barring MtG pre-releases and other stuff), and a discount or access to other things.

A few things to not.
1. Your store is not a charity. This means do not expect them to give you stuff for free.
2. Gamers are not a charity. Do not expect them to walk into a store and hand over cash for nothing.
3. Employee knowledge. I have to laugh at this one. Most shops just dont offer it. They put it on the shelf and hard sell it to you. Then when you play the game and have a question, you get the responce of 'google it yourself" I'm lucky in that my local store actually DOES have game support. This good customer service is why I spend money there.
4. Game support. If you play one of the big money makers like MTG you get plenty of this. With wargaming, not so much. However, the store is not out anything on this as GW or whatever parent company that produces the game is giving the stuff away not the store itself and the store doubles their sales for the day. It's a win win.
5. Player introduction. Yes, you can learn the local players this way. Often faster than social media.
6. Customer introduction. Also known as free advertising in that having gamers play at the store brings in more customers than there would be otherwise. This is why store owners who run successful businesses ask players to game there for this very reason.
7. Business plan or basic economics- "opening a store" and putting stuff on shelves at a huge markup and then slapping a sheet of plywood down on top of the comic book boxes and then complaining about losing money and going out of business because of leeches who want to play their game where they buy their game is a poor business model. It takes more than that.
.......
It goes on and on with BOTH sides having valid points. It also goes on and on with BOTH sides totally ignoring the points of the other side. it also goes on and on with veiled insults and jabs. Just because we are wargamers does not mean we have to be at war. LOL Look at the very title of the thread. "Supporting your local store vs. saving a lot of money". It is looked at as an 'all or nothing' question and that is a lose/lose situation.
The int is a store that does not offe discounts (or at least some sort of club that a player can buy into or some way for reguler customers to dave money on purchases or offer perks such as tourneys, seminars and events will go out of business. Without a shop to play at playes will have to play at home or find somewhere to play.
The onus is on the shop owner to find what works and take the first steps towards it because they are the ones with something to lose. A player can always play at home with other locals until a new shop opens up.
Shops open and close all the time. the ones with good business plans stay open.
The number 1 reason ive seen them go out of business was not offering discounts, poor customer service and lack of a playing area.
I have also seen them go out of business by being TOO nice. Buying MTG cards at full "book value" and offering store credit (not the kind where you pay and then have it but the kind where you pay later).
My local has not only stayed open but has had to move locations 3 times now each time to someplace bigger. Their current one is downright huge with the gaming area almost twice the size of a normal shop, a sales floor almost twice the size of a normal shop and even a kitchenette with a fridge for players to keep stuff cold. How has Dave managed to do so well? He offers a discount to loyal/regular customers. Has great customer service, and offers us good knowledge and assistance. Heck, he keeps his armies at the shop and and loas them to players or potential players. He doesn't see us customers as adversaries to rail against but as human beings and understands what it takes to get our business knowing that he is competing with the internet and that he doesn't get 100% of our business.

I supported 3 stores and they still closed down. I'd say forget GW loyalty! Buy preowned armies on ebay and save!

Also pm me if you are interested as I am selling my csm army on ebay!

The main issue is - I rarely purchase anything besides paint/glue/brushes.

For expanding my IG Army, I'll buy a few kits from the FLGS. The issue is, I've only purchased "A few kits" for the entire year. With the GW Prices, I don't really spend as much as I used to, but I play about the same.

 EVIL INC wrote:
A few things to not.
1. Your store is not a charity. This means do not expect them to give you stuff for free.
2. Gamers are not a charity. Do not expect them to walk into a store and hand over cash for nothing.
3. Employee knowledge. I have to laugh at this one. Most shops just dont offer it. They put it on the shelf and hard sell it to you. Then when you play the game and have a question, you get the responce of 'google it yourself" I'm lucky in that my local store actually DOES have game support. This good customer service is why I spend money there.
4. Game support. If you play one of the big money makers like MTG you get plenty of this. With wargaming, not so much. However, the store is not out anything on this as GW or whatever parent company that produces the game is giving the stuff away not the store itself and the store doubles their sales for the day. It's a win win.
5. Player introduction. Yes, you can learn the local players this way. Often faster than social media.
6. Customer introduction. Also known as free advertising in that having gamers play at the store brings in more customers than there would be otherwise. This is why store owners who run successful businesses ask players to game there for this very reason.
7. Business plan or basic economics- "opening a store" and putting stuff on shelves at a huge markup and then slapping a sheet of plywood down on top of the comic book boxes and then complaining about losing money and going out of business because of leeches who want to play their game where they buy their game is a poor business model. It takes more than that.
.......
It goes on and on with BOTH sides having valid points. It also goes on and on with BOTH sides totally ignoring the points of the other side. it also goes on and on with veiled insults and jabs. Just because we are wargamers does not mean we have to be at war. LOL Look at the very title of the thread. "Supporting your local store vs. saving a lot of money". It is looked at as an 'all or nothing' question and that is a lose/lose situation.
The int is a store that does not offe discounts (or at least some sort of club that a player can buy into or some way for reguler customers to dave money on purchases or offer perks such as tourneys, seminars and events will go out of business. Without a shop to play at playes will have to play at home or find somewhere to play.
The onus is on the shop owner to find what works and take the first steps towards it because they are the ones with something to lose. A player can always play at home with other locals until a new shop opens up.
Shops open and close all the time. the ones with good business plans stay open.
The number 1 reason ive seen them go out of business was not offering discounts, poor customer service and lack of a playing area.
I have also seen them go out of business by being TOO nice. Buying MTG cardsat full "book value" and offering store credit(not the kind where you pay and then have it but the kind where you pay later).
My local has not only stayed open but has had to move locations 3 times now each time to someplace bigger. Their current one is downright huge with the gaming area almost twice the size of a normal shop, a sales floor almost twice the size of a normal shop and even a kitchenette with a fridge for playes to keep stuff cold. How has Dave managed to do so well? He offers a discount to loyal/reguler customers. Has great customer service, and offers us good knowledge and assistance. Heck, he keeps his armies at the shop and ans them to players or potential players. e doesnt see us customers as adversaries to rail against but as human beings ad understands what it takes to get our business know that he is competing with the internet and that he doesnt get 100% of our business.

Giga-Bites? If so, I'm really feeling the love

You SHOULD be feeling the love. We are trying to help you stay in business.
Just because you will soon replaced IF you fail doesnt mean anyone actually wants you to. We want shops to stay open and succeed. Not just so there is a convenient place to play publicly and buy product from locally but because the shops are usually run by gamers and we want to help fellow gamers out as we can within reason.
You can tell I'm not a good typer. Going back now to fix some typos.

I gotta say I think if you're going to take up free table space in a store, you should buy something there. It just seems like common courtesy.

I wouldn't expect you to buy EVERYTHING there though. I suppose the odd blister or boxed set is okay.

I get annoyed at people who scoff and think that those of us who pay full price are fools. Perhaps I pay full price because I put a value on having a high street with interesting shops to walk around. I can get all my books cheap on Amazon, but going to the book shop for a wander and a browse is a day out for me. I can wander along there, have a hot chocolate and look at lots of different books. Same thing with Games Stores (though they tend to be untidier and smellier). GW is something of a special case because the pushy sales tactics they use puts me off browsing in there. I don't like feeling pressured in that way. But leave me alone in your store and I'll talk myself into picking something up, even if it's just hobby supplies, every time.

Way I see it a lot of people here have it backwards. You don't go to a store, use their tables, then buy things from there because you use there tables. You go to a store because of the tables and while you're there the staff will be able to sell you things.

In some areas of retail people spent a lot of time and money just getting people to walk through their door. With open gaming and events FLGSs have a massive leg up on other retail outlets as they can get customers consistently returning to their store, as well as occasionally bringing friends.

A good FLGS imo won't charge for space or expect people to buy from them because of the tables. They will use the tables to fill their store with customers then sell to those customers. Its simply a (very effective) method of advertising.

The most successful long-term gaming stores I've seen had ONE 4'x8' table that served multiple purposes, with folding tables for card gaming nights.

The stores with more table space than product shelving? Out of business within a year.

If you are serious about being a viable business, the less table space, the better.

I buy almost exclusively online, primarily for the prices. The 'almost exclusively' is because, each time I go into a local game shop, especially if it's one I frequent, I always try to find something to buy. Usually, at the GW shop, that's nothing more than a paint pot, but at the very least I'm doing something to help the store stay open.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The most successful long-term gaming stores I've seen had ONE 4'x8' table that served multiple purposes, with folding tables for card gaming nights.

The stores with more table space than product shelving? Out of business within a year.

If you are serious about being a viable business, the less table space, the better.

Your anecdotal evidence is just that: anecdotal

My FLGS has expanded three times in the three years I've been going there. He started in a small unit with very little room for tables and a cramped product area, he then moved to a larger unit in the same shopping center and doubled his shelf space and table area, and then expanded into the adjacent unit to make a dedicated game room the same size as his previous game/shelf space.

In the main store he has eight 4'x8' tables and the game room is full of folding tables and a metal workbench for painting. We had 29 players in the X-wing store championship last weekend that took up all of the main tables and some of the game room and there was still more than enough space for the board game group to hold their games and some guys play card games.

There's a place in London called the Trocadero that used to have dozens of arcade games in there. I used to wander by as a teenager, and the place was always packed with other teenagers. A few years ago though, it went out of business. The reason? None of those teenagers actually used the machines, they just used it as a convenient place to hang out.

It's all very well and good to sit though and say, 'Ah well, free market, I'll buy at the cheapest place, and then play somewhere with absolutely no guilt. Because if they wanted my money, they'd lure me in and make me want to spend my money there!' The fact remains though, that if everyone adopts such a tack, there is quickly no longer a gaming store for you to play at with all those models you bought online.

It is all well and good for to not buy anything, but if the owner sees you wandering in with many new models and you never buy anything, he is well within his rights to simply eject you. You contribute nothing, and occupy physical space and table space a paying customer can use. He is not the store you want, and likewise, you are not a customer he wants, primarily because you are not a customer.

I think the truth here though, is that if you buy online and play in a store, you clearly have a desire to play in a store. It might not matter enough to you to part with your dough, but the desire is there. Which means losing your play space will be an inconvenience for you, whatever form that takes.

Am I the only one who finds it odd that FLGS are one of the only places that uses free services I can get at home or somewhere else as a way to guilt you into buying them?
What other service does the same. A restaurant doesn't try to compel me to buy there because their dining area is nice, they do ito by offering good food with reasonable prices.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Am I the only one who finds it odd that FLGS are one of the only places that uses free services I can get at home or somewhere else as a way to guilt you into buying them?
What other service does the same. A restaurant doesn't try to compel me to buy there because their dining area is nice, they do ito by offering good food with reasonable prices.

A more accurate analogy would be you walking into a four star restaurant with a Burger King you bought outside, and then complaining when the restaurant owner tells you to buy some food there. "Honestly man, just because you have a nice dining area and great waiters is no reason for me to buy food here! You need to do cheaper food like Burger King down the road! I'm only sitting here because the chair and table are empty at the moment!"

I think my analogy works better. Stores guilt you into buying there stuff by the mantra "Buy from us because you must" Not buy from us because we have better prices than online.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I think my analogy works better. Stores guilt you into buying there stuff by the mantra "Buy from us because you must" Not buy from us because we have better prices than online.

You might like it better, but it is inaccurate. Observe.

The scenario begins with you walking into a service orientated retail establishment (The game shop or restaurant). You then proceed to daintily take out the product which is sold directly by that establishment (namely gaming models, or food). The owner approaches you, and asks why you have not purchased the aforementioned product in his establishment, as it specialises in selling that product (gaming models or food). You then retort that the owner is in competition with another establishment located elsewhere for that type of good (an online store or a fast food joint). You prissily inform him that he needs to be offering more things to obtain your custom.

The owner scratches his head and replies that he has great customer service that you would not receive in the other establishment. He also offers a pleasant environment for enjoying the product that the competition does not (be it nice gaming tables, or a well lit romantic set of tables with silver cutlery). He says that this justifies the price differential.

You then reply that this is quite simply not good enough and inform him that he must do better to gain your custom. You sit down on a chair, unwrap your merchandise (be it gaming models or a Burger King), begin to utilise his resources (his table with terrain, or the ketchup and wide variety of condiments), and are shocked when he turfs you out.

Not really, because offering a free place to eat isn't part of a restaurants requirements, like a gamestore. But games stores if they want to be considered must offer To survive. But they also must make us want to buy your product.
Also, burger King and a Fourstar are not the same. But all GO product is no matter where I get it. Ando what is the point of good customer service if I know I want what I want.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Not really, because offering a free place to eat isn't part of a restaurants requirements, like a gamestore.

Nope. A game store provides a free place to play for its customers. They keep a generally open store front to try and lure people in, but make no mistake about it, the owner does not rent a store purely to provide square footage for teenagers to occupy at will. He does it to make money.

There will be times or reasons when a shop owner chooses not to make a big deal about it ( e.g. you're there with five people who just spent a hundred dollars on either models or a very expensive bottle of wine) but you have absolutely no claim or right to be in his shop if you have no interest in utilising it for the purpose it exists (to buy models or food).

 Ketara wrote:
The scenario begins with you walking into a service orientated retail establishment (The game shop or restaurant). You then proceed to daintily take out the product which is sold directly by that establishment (namely gaming models, or food). The owner approaches you, and asks why you have not purchased the aforementioned product in his establishment, as it specialises in selling that product (gaming models or food). You then retort that the owner is in competition with another establishment located elsewhere for that type of good (an online store or a fast food joint). You prissily inform him that he needs to be offering more things to obtain your custom.

This analogy only holds water if you buy the minis you are going to game with every time you walk into the store.

Otherwise, they're two very different situations that are only superficially similar on the surface. Yes, they're both selling you something and both offering you a table to facilitate the appropriate consumption of that 'something'... Except for the restaurant that's a 1:1 deal. You buy something, and then you eat it. You don't buy something, take it home, and then bring it back in every two weeks to sit at their tables and nibble a bit.

 Da Boss wrote:
I gotta say I think if you're going to take up free table space in a store, you should buy something there. It just seems like common courtesy.

I wouldn't expect you to buy EVERYTHING there though. I suppose the odd blister or boxed set is okay.

Basically this. The idea of 'pay where you play' isn't about spending all of your hobby money there, just that if you do decide to take up a table and have a game and they're not charging for table time, buy something there.

This is why I like my FLGS, as they serve hot food. Since we start gaming at about 11am, it's easy to order a burger and chips, and a few drinks, while having a game. That along covers more for them than they'd get away with charging for table time.

 insaniak wrote:

This analogy only holds water if you buy the minis you are going to game with every time you walk into the store.

Otherwise, they're two very different situations that are only superficially similar on the surface. Yes, they're both selling you something and both offering you a table to facilitate the appropriate consumption of that 'something'... Except for the restaurant that's a 1:1 deal. You buy something, and then you eat it. You don't buy something, take it home, and then bring it back in every two weeks to sit at their tables and nibble a bit.

There is such a thing as taking an analogy too deep. You are correct that the same product is not utilised every single time in one situation but is in the other. It would also be equally correct that to state that one of the products is consumed whereas the other is used to play games with. Or that selling one of those products requires a food preparation license whilst the other does not.

All of these would be correct things to observe, but none of them detract from the points made by the analogy. The fact that the molecular nature of the product is different in the two cases, and that the usages to which that product is physically put is different does not any way remove from the wider similarities being advanced. It is to be expected that there are differences between the two things, as they are not the same identical thing.

But then again, if they were, it wouldn't really be an analogy.

 Ketara wrote:
Nope. A game store provides a free place to play for its customers.

And this, I think, is the crux of the disagreement on this issue.

What you see as a freebie that the store is offering to its customers, others see as a sales tool that is designed to encourage people to become customers. It's ultimately no different to handing out free vouchers, or taking out a TV ad.

Claiming your voucher freebie, or watching that ad on TV doesn't oblige you to buy something from the store. The store just hopes that it will encourage you to do so.



Ultimately, of course, what is important is how the store owner views that gaming space. If he sees it as a sales tool, then he needs to make a value judgement as to whether or not that tool is paying for itself, and has no reason for complaint if people use it without buying. If he wants to offer it instead as a perk for his paying customers, that's totally fine... but in that case, this needs to be made clear to everyone that walks in the door. Otherwise, you get the disconnect we're seeing here.