Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Yeah I'm struggling to find a use for Mephrit. You can at least probably take a relic from Mephrit like the thermite and then a relic from the regular codex like the shroud to give your dude a 2+ re-rollable with a 4++. But that's going to run you.....230 points. I would probably be fine with that if you didn't need to have the entire mephrit dynasty detachment to have a buff monster like that. Maybe if you could create two of those, it would be sort of worthwhile, but the RP are worse and you're still not getting the re-roll of 1's to the RP, and you don't have any obsec. I wish they could have found an easier way to sneak those relics in on somebody without paying through the nose

Second observation:

Put a moderately important vehicle in front of them and have them charge it. They'll pile in but not get a consolidation move. Apply wyvern fire. If you can average 3 hits per template, which should be doable if you're lucky since they'll be bunched up and you have a twin-linked barrage weapon, you can remove one wraith per wyvern firing. Not great, but that unit becomes a lot less scary at 3 models (see the math for them fighting conscripts in my previous post).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Additional thought. If the wraiths have started carving a path of destruction through your forces, their spyder may be in a place where you can tank shock it and force it to be more than 12" away.


====================================================================================================================
Then of course, there is the broken approach (This requires an SM/SoB/Inq force):

Severin Loth
Inquisitior with Rad grenades
2 priests (one with Litanies of the Faith)
6 Death Cult Assassins
4 Crusaders

430 + any extras on the inq + the LRC (which you probably want)

Severin Loth takes Biomancy: Enfeeble and the two self buffs to make his statline full of 7s.

When you assault (and there's no reason to get out of the LR before you can make sure you get the charge):

The wraiths will be T3 (Rad Grenades + Enfeeble), you will have +1A (charge), reroll to hit (priests), reroll to wound (priests), reroll to saves (priests), Litanies of the Faith means not having to roll to activate priest buffs.

At I7:
Severin Loth uses his axe to get +1A before punching the wraiths in the face. He makes 8 S7 attacks. 8/9 chance to hit, 35/36ths to wound, Instant Death. 6 wounds, 2 failed, 2 dead wraiths.

At I6:
The 6 DCAs make their 4 attacks each. 8/9ths to hit 8/9ths to wound. 19 wounds, 6 failed, 3 dead wraiths.

At I5:
Wraiths swing. Each one inflicts 1/2 * 5/6 * 3 = 1.25 wounds, which your rerollable 3+ laughs at.

At I4 and slower:
Hopefully you don't kill the last wraith so that you can be locked in combat during enemy shooting phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The upside of this approach is the wraiths should do no damage, and your squad should be ready hop back on and remove the next wraith squad in a turn or two.

Mavnas wrote:
Some thoughts I had today:

50 conscripts + 2 priests = 200 pts.
Charge the wraiths (or get charged by them).

The wraiths hit an average of twice, 1.33 wounds, .33 rending wounds. The priests give you a save reroll, rerollable 5+ is 5/9ths chance so just under one conscript dead per wraith per turn.

Now in exchange, the conscripts... who cares. You've tarpitted the enemy unit for 8-9 assault phases for fewer points than they cost, and 52 models have a giant footprint. You could string the unit across the entire board and ensure the wraiths come close to it.

Ya anything like this will work fine. I have a friend who runs 40 fearless zombie horde (ia13) with 4+ fnp and usually abaddon inside (sometimes kharn). Nasty nasty unit and the guns behind it are even worse. Now of course S6 ignores their FNP but anything s5 or less doesn't and abaddon tanks and kills like no other. The hordes costs 120 pts.

Yeah wraiths can definitely be tarpitted. You just need someone who won't run and has a ton of wounds. Quantity over quality. After the initial charge, wraiths can take a while to grind through certain things. But if you're not fearless or the like, they tend to fail morale before the whole unit dies to claws

Mavnas wrote:
Some thoughts I had today:

50 conscripts + 2 priests = 200 pts.
Charge the wraiths (or get charged by them).

The wraiths hit an average of twice, 1.33 wounds, .33 rending wounds. The priests give you a save reroll, rerollable 5+ is 5/9ths chance so just under one conscript dead per wraith per turn.

Now in exchange, the conscripts... who cares. You've tarpitted the enemy unit for 8-9 assault phases for fewer points than they cost, and 52 models have a giant footprint. You could string the unit across the entire board and ensure the wraiths come close to it.

How exactly do you plan to get a slow moving infantry squad into Combat with Wraiths, who are beasts?

Yeah, they can be tarpited.. But they are so fast they dictate the combats. Unless you have a tarpit that is equally as fast.

 Sasori wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
Some thoughts I had today:

50 conscripts + 2 priests = 200 pts.
Charge the wraiths (or get charged by them).

The wraiths hit an average of twice, 1.33 wounds, .33 rending wounds. The priests give you a save reroll, rerollable 5+ is 5/9ths chance so just under one conscript dead per wraith per turn.

Now in exchange, the conscripts... who cares. You've tarpitted the enemy unit for 8-9 assault phases for fewer points than they cost, and 52 models have a giant footprint. You could string the unit across the entire board and ensure the wraiths come close to it.

How exactly do you plan to get a slow moving infantry squad into Combat with Wraiths, who are beasts?

Yeah, they can be tarpited.. But they are so fast they dictate the combats. Unless you have a tarpit that is equally as fast.

Infantry squads can be strung out 3" per model. (2" gap, 1" base). A 52 model squad could form a line 13' long. (Or really a rectangle 3.25' * 1') Not even wraith movement is going to get them through that if that unit is between them and their target.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They could of course, decline to engage the tarpit and give up any hope of attacking anything behind them until shooting attacks take chunks out of that unit, but last I checked, most cron shooting is 24" or less... so they'll be waiting a while if you're playing guard, deployed long range stuff on your back line and put a couple tarpits between you and the wraiths.

Mavnas wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
Some thoughts I had today:

50 conscripts + 2 priests = 200 pts.
Charge the wraiths (or get charged by them).

The wraiths hit an average of twice, 1.33 wounds, .33 rending wounds. The priests give you a save reroll, rerollable 5+ is 5/9ths chance so just under one conscript dead per wraith per turn.

Now in exchange, the conscripts... who cares. You've tarpitted the enemy unit for 8-9 assault phases for fewer points than they cost, and 52 models have a giant footprint. You could string the unit across the entire board and ensure the wraiths come close to it.

How exactly do you plan to get a slow moving infantry squad into Combat with Wraiths, who are beasts?

Yeah, they can be tarpited.. But they are so fast they dictate the combats. Unless you have a tarpit that is equally as fast.

Infantry squads can be strung out 3" per model. (2" gap, 1" base). A 52 model squad could form a line 13' long. (Or really a rectangle 3.25' * 1') Not even wraith movement is going to get them through that if that unit is between them and their target.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They could of course, decline to engage the tarpit and give up any hope of attacking anything behind them until shooting attacks take chunks out of that unit, but last I checked, most cron shooting is 24" or less... so they'll be waiting a while if you're playing guard, deployed long range stuff on your back line and put a couple tarpits between you and the wraiths.

Most guns on the Cron Side are going to be in range on Turn 2. Things like Tomb blades are so fast, they can be in range Turn 1 on most things.

So it's really not that long at all.

Mavnas wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
Some thoughts I had today:

50 conscripts + 2 priests = 200 pts.
Charge the wraiths (or get charged by them).

The wraiths hit an average of twice, 1.33 wounds, .33 rending wounds. The priests give you a save reroll, rerollable 5+ is 5/9ths chance so just under one conscript dead per wraith per turn.

Now in exchange, the conscripts... who cares. You've tarpitted the enemy unit for 8-9 assault phases for fewer points than they cost, and 52 models have a giant footprint. You could string the unit across the entire board and ensure the wraiths come close to it.

How exactly do you plan to get a slow moving infantry squad into Combat with Wraiths, who are beasts?

Yeah, they can be tarpited.. But they are so fast they dictate the combats. Unless you have a tarpit that is equally as fast.

Infantry squads can be strung out 3" per model. (2" gap, 1" base). A 52 model squad could form a line 13' long. (Or really a rectangle 3.25' * 1') Not even wraith movement is going to get them through that if that unit is between them and their target.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They could of course, decline to engage the tarpit and give up any hope of attacking anything behind them until shooting attacks take chunks out of that unit, but last I checked, most cron shooting is 24" or less... so they'll be waiting a while if you're playing guard, deployed long range stuff on your back line and put a couple tarpits between you and the wraiths.

While now beasts, wraiths still possess a rule which allows them to move through other models. Nothing says they can't charge through another unit either, if it comes to that. The only requirement is ending up at least one inch away from the wrap, making it waaaay harder (but not impossible) to wrap properly vs wraiths.

Someone pointed out that if you go first shoot the wraiths, because the ability starts at the beginning of your turn. Not before the game begins, so that's somewhat of a bonus.

However the other person pointed out was that once it get's started unless you kill the Tomb Spyder in the first turn the Wraiths are always gonna keep the RP because the effect stays in effect until your following turn.

So

1st turn you go - Shoot Wraiths

1st turn Necrons - They get RP till the beginning of the Necrons 2nd Turn

2 Turn You go Shoot the Spyder

Hollismason wrote:
Someone pointed out that if you go first shoot the wraiths, because the ability starts at the beginning of your turn. Not before the game begins, so that's somewhat of a bonus.

However the other person pointed out was that once it get's started unless you kill the Tomb Spyder in the first turn the Wraiths are always gonna keep the RP because the effect stays in effect until your following turn.

So

1st turn you go - Shoot Wraiths

1st turn Necrons - They get RP till the beginning of the Necrons 2nd Turn

2 Turn You go Shoot the Spyder

This is honestly the first bit of really serious advice for fighting this formation that I have seen. Hats off to whoever thought of it.

 Sasori wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Someone pointed out that if you go first shoot the wraiths, because the ability starts at the beginning of your turn. Not before the game begins, so that's somewhat of a bonus.

However the other person pointed out was that once it get's started unless you kill the Tomb Spyder in the first turn the Wraiths are always gonna keep the RP because the effect stays in effect until your following turn.

So

1st turn you go - Shoot Wraiths

1st turn Necrons - They get RP till the beginning of the Necrons 2nd Turn

2 Turn You go Shoot the Spyder

This is honestly the first bit of really serious advice for fighting this formation that I have seen. Hats off to whoever thought of it.

Turn 2 - If the wraiths are going to be a serious problem, why not just shoot the wraiths again turn 2? What does the spyder provide (other than the +1 RP to the wraiths) that is an actual threat. Yes turn 2 shoot the spyder if you ain't got another threat to deal with, but if the RP bonus only applies start of turn 1 and you go first. I'd wipe the wraiths turn 1 if I could, or in turn 2 focus out those last remaining. I just son't see the +1FNP being so absurdly powerful that in the second turn if any wraiths were left you focussed the spyder in order to drop the +1RP. Plus in turn 2 if you have wiped the wraiths i'd imagine the rest of his list is probably a higher threat than the spyder.

The Spyder actually provides the Wraiths with the Reanimation Protocols and the Decurion Detachment rules make it a 4+, so their running around with a 3++ , 4++, because of that reason.

So it's smart on the first turn to down the Squad with shooting, but on the 2nd turn shoot at the Spyder, because the Wraiths are going to survive what you throw at them.

Here's some things:

Imperial Guard : Manticores, ST10 and it's AP doesn't matter, worsens their Reanimation Protocol. Monstrous Hunter order on the Spyder

Space Marines: ???

Dark Eldar : Grotesques actually. Statistically 5 Grotesques from a Grotesquirie will tie up and murder a unit of Wraiths as they don't care about their Rending attacks and are T5 , Wound 2+, 6s for instant death

Solar Shock wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Someone pointed out that if you go first shoot the wraiths, because the ability starts at the beginning of your turn. Not before the game begins, so that's somewhat of a bonus.

However the other person pointed out was that once it get's started unless you kill the Tomb Spyder in the first turn the Wraiths are always gonna keep the RP because the effect stays in effect until your following turn.

So

1st turn you go - Shoot Wraiths

1st turn Necrons - They get RP till the beginning of the Necrons 2nd Turn

2 Turn You go Shoot the Spyder

This is honestly the first bit of really serious advice for fighting this formation that I have seen. Hats off to whoever thought of it.

Turn 2 - If the wraiths are going to be a serious problem, why not just shoot the wraiths again turn 2? What does the spyder provide (other than the +1 RP to the wraiths) that is an actual threat. Yes turn 2 shoot the spyder if you ain't got another threat to deal with, but if the RP bonus only applies start of turn 1 and you go first. I'd wipe the wraiths turn 1 if I could, or in turn 2 focus out those last remaining. I just son't see the +1FNP being so absurdly powerful that in the second turn if any wraiths were left you focussed the spyder in order to drop the +1RP. Plus in turn 2 if you have wiped the wraiths i'd imagine the rest of his list is probably a higher threat than the spyder.

Not a bad idea to try that. It's kind of like shooting at screamerstar if you get first turn before they get their powers up.

That being said, I still would rather start the wraiths in my own deployment zone (as an opposing player) and let them charge me first turn going first over going first under the LVO/BAO format. It's such a huge advantage currently that I feel does need to be addressed. My personal solution would be to score the maelstrom objectives at the end of the player turn and then of course the eternal war objective at the end of the game. Currently it's just so heavily weighted in the favor of whoever goes second. I can't think of a single alpha strike army that I would take first turn from if I had the option. I've been rolling to "anti-seize" at this point (made to go first, trying to change and go second) sadly no one wants to let me

So you're saying my drop pod Salamanders don't instant lose against Wraithwing?

The light is faint. But I see it.

Let's all take a deep breath. The Decurion detachment actually makes it pretty hard to effectively spam wraiths because you must buy everything in it as part of mini-formations. So for every group of wraiths you want to buy in a Decurion detachment, you must buy a Spyder and scarabs to accompany them. It's not a huge point tax, to be fair, but it also chips away at points you need to buy the units to effectively support the wraithwing. Remember what made old wraithwing scary? It was 18 wraiths supported by 2 destroyer lords, 3 annihilation barges and 2+ troop choices in Nightscythes or ghost arcs. It had really credible shooting threats that you couldn't ignore combined with a fast moving, outstanding assault element.

So looking closely at the Decurion detachment, you can add in the two nightscythes fairly easily as part of your base formation. But that's it. After you buy two wraith formations, you are now sitting at roughly 1300-1400 points. Now what? You don't have open slots to just add in annihilation barges like before. You could throw in a supporting CAD or (meta allowing) a Necron allied detachment, but now you have to pay the HQ and troop tax again before you add in support. You'll very easily reach the tourney standard 1850 and you're still down 6 wraiths compared to the previous wraithwing, plus some of the key shooting units that made it so good.

It's because statistically 5 T5 2 W wraiths at 43 ppm are basically the same as 6 35 point Wraiths , basically.

Also, the Formation isn't like schlock formation. The 4 Scarabs your going to get are a really great Tarpit unit. They have the 4+ RP protocol as well and are fearless. Your also getting a monstrous creature. Again it's a really good formation.

I think people forget that , it's 12 Wounds that are 4+ Fearless. That'll bog down a unit for a turn or two at least.

Hollismason wrote:
It's because statistically 5 T5 2 W wraiths at 43 ppm are basically the same as 6 35 point Wraiths , basically.

Also, the Formation isn't like schlock formation. The 4 Scarabs your going to get are a really great Tarpit unit. They have the 4+ RP protocol as well and are fearless. Your also getting a monstrous creature. Again it's a really good formation.

I think people forget that , it's 12 Wounds that are 4+ Fearless. That'll bog down a unit for a turn or two at least.

But you are also losing the supporting units that made the old wraithwing good. The cheapest possible reclamation legion still forces you to field 1 Overlord, 2 units of Warriors, 1 unit of immortals and a unit of tomb blades. If you buy Nightscythes for the troops, you're looking at about 600 points. You need the Nightscythes anyway to cover anti-air and to bring in some much needed shooting.

Each Canoptek Harvest is about another 400 points. You buy two of them and you're at about 1400 points. You have 12 total wraiths versus the 18 you had previously. You've also lost the ability to field supporting units as individual choices. You can't just add in a vanilla unit of wraiths or 3 annihilation barges to round out the detachment. You actually have to field another formation (Annihilation Nexus) to just get 2 Barges and a Doomsday Ark or you have to pay a troop and HQ tax to open a second CAD.

Canoptek Harvest is a good formation. But spamming it makes your army actually really weak compared to the old wraithwing. You can focus on a unit of wraiths at a time while tarpitting someone else. S6+ shooting destroys scarabs all day and it is plentiful these days. You can even make the wraiths waste a turn of assault by staying hunkered up inside your transport because the supporting shooting just isn't there like it used to be. And more importantly, you have less wraiths.

Hollismason wrote:
It's because statistically 5 T5 2 W wraiths at 43 ppm are basically the same as 6 35 point Wraiths , basically.

Also, the Formation isn't like schlock formation. The 4 Scarabs your going to get are a really great Tarpit unit. They have the 4+ RP protocol as well and are fearless. Your also getting a monstrous creature. Again it's a really good formation.

I think people forget that , it's 12 Wounds that are 4+ Fearless. That'll bog down a unit for a turn or two at least.

It's also only 12 T3 wounds that take double wounds from blasts and flamers and only has a 6+ save. Yes, you can build more from the Spyder and they can have RP if you want, but still. That's markedly easy to ID or kill with a couple flamers.

Baseline, you're paying, what, 110 extra points for that one squad of Wraiths, on top of any upgrades you might give them. That's a heavy tax, and you're also limiting their movement by a bit if you want the RP, which compounds it. On top of that, the stuff in Reclamation Legion is good, but you have to pay for it and can't just spam the one unit you like. We're not just getting 4+++RP Wraiths that fly around the field and can be spammed as much as before. It's limiting, but with a benefit. I think that's fair, honestly.

I know that points wise it isn't always that effective, but couldn't a Mace Prince murder Wraiths? Or a least not die and eventually kill them all.

Ah well... In the last edition my solution to wraiths was generally Baledrakes and Vindicators, but that probably won't work any more now :(

 Talon of Anathrax wrote:
I know that points wise it isn't always that effective, but couldn't a Mace Prince murder Wraiths? Or a least not die and eventually kill them all.

Ah well... In the last edition my solution to wraiths was generally Baledrakes and Vindicators, but that probably won't work any more now :(

I'd stick with Vindicators. For every three Wraiths you can get under the template one's getting IDed out.

The suggestions made in the thread thus far are interesting, but I think people are failing to take into consideration that:

A) Even without the 4+ RP formation, Wraiths are still durable as hell- durable enough that you simply aren't going to down an entire unit in one turn unless you focus the firepower of your whole army on them. That has its own problems because:

B) Without using the formations/Decuron you can fit three units of them with all the trimmings into a list for under 800 points. So that's not one, but three Wraith squads you have to deal with, as well as the rest of his army.

The more I think about it, the more I think that tarpitting is the way to go. Trying to shoot them down before they reach your lines just strikes me as inefficient at best or functionally impossible barring apocalypse-level units at worse.

You're talking about I5, but they can only get I3.

 wuestenfux wrote:
You're talking about I5, but they can only get I3.

They have I2, but Whip Coils give +3 to Initiative.

Requizen wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
You're talking about I5, but they can only get I3.

They have I2, but Whip Coils give +3 to Initiative.

You're right.
Whip coils are auto upgrades.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PanzerLeader wrote:
Let's all take a deep breath. The Decurion detachment actually makes it pretty hard to effectively spam wraiths because you must buy everything in it as part of mini-formations. So for every group of wraiths you want to buy in a Decurion detachment, you must buy a Spyder and scarabs to accompany them. It's not a huge point tax, to be fair, but it also chips away at points you need to buy the units to effectively support the wraithwing. Remember what made old wraithwing scary? It was 18 wraiths supported by 2 destroyer lords, 3 annihilation barges and 2+ troop choices in Nightscythes or ghost arcs. It had really credible shooting threats that you couldn't ignore combined with a fast moving, outstanding assault element.

So looking closely at the Decurion detachment, you can add in the two nightscythes fairly easily as part of your base formation. But that's it. After you buy two wraith formations, you are now sitting at roughly 1300-1400 points. Now what? You don't have open slots to just add in annihilation barges like before. You could throw in a supporting CAD or (meta allowing) a Necron allied detachment, but now you have to pay the HQ and troop tax again before you add in support. You'll very easily reach the tourney standard 1850 and you're still down 6 wraiths compared to the previous wraithwing, plus some of the key shooting units that made it so good.

Right.
The tax given by the combination of formations is too high for my liking.
The Wraiths are faster and more durable than before.
I'll rather include an Obelisk.

I honestly think the formation is well worth the points cost. Especially because of Relentless and Transdimensional Beamers.

oh snap, everyone in the Decurion gets relentless? I thought it was just the Reclamation Legion

 astro_nomicon wrote:
oh snap, everyone in the Decurion gets relentless? I thought it was just the Reclamation Legion

No, the Canoptek Swarm formation grants Relentless. Which is important.

Requizen wrote:
I honestly think the formation is well worth the points cost. Especially because of Relentless and Transdimensional Beamers.

Too point intense.
Relentless for troops? Why not but not a must have.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Requizen wrote:
I honestly think the formation is well worth the points cost. Especially because of Relentless and Transdimensional Beamers.

Too point intense.
Relentless for troops? Why not but not a must have.

It kind of is when you have a Heavy AP2 gun that causes auto Penetrating Hits or Auto Instant Death wounds on rolls of 6. That's too good not to have.

Don't you have to choose between RP or relentless each turn though? Or do they just get all of that?