How to fight the new Wraith EFFECTIVELY?

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**Alcibiades**

PanzerLeader wrote:
Alcibiades wrote:
hah, I jjust realized that in the formation,, giving a full squad Scarabs Shred will do serious damage to even things like wraithknights.

S3 still can't hurt T8.

Entropic Strike can.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BoomWolf wrote:

As for pretorians, I don't know what their formation does, but they still have the speed issue, even if they are harder to kill than the flayed.

The Triarch Stalker that they are fielded with allows them to rereroll to hit and to wound rolls against 1 target in LOS, as well as the standard +1 to BS if they are within 12" of it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mathematically, if we are comparing Wraiths, FOs, and TPs, Praetorians (at least with the rod) have highest damage output against heavy infantry and Flayed Ones the highest against light infantry. Wraiths are in the middle.

**Hollismason**

Dash2021 wrote:
Alcibiades wrote:
Dash2021 wrote:
The points value in the Wraith's is just silly. Doing the math vs. Grotesques (similar points value) the Wraiths mop the floor with them,

Really? Taking the flesh gauntlet's lethal dose into account, I see they're about even, the wraith maybe a little ahead. This is assuming the Grotesque has 4+ FNP, which is probable.

If the Grotesque gets the charge, if he is at the Furious Charge level of PFP, he comes out ahead.

I think, maybe the math is wrong.

6 Wraiths vs. 7 Grotesques (~same points) the math varies dramatically depending on who you assume gets the charge. I give Wraiths the charge, because honestly there's no reason they wouldn't. Grotesques in a raider is a massive target that should be shot down first/second turn and stranded, not to mention the squad only numbers 5 inside a raider (max) which makes the outcome for them even worse. Also assume I5 on the wraiths (again, why wouldn't you).

Wraiths Charge:
24 attacks -> 12 hits -> 8 wounds (7.9 rounded) -> 4 (3.96) unsaved wounds. Rend and the one armor save would cancel out, assumed 4+ FnP on the Grotesques.

Grotesques:
30 Attacks -> 15 hits -> 8 wounds (7.5) -> 2.4 unsaved wounds -> 1.2 after 4+ FnP (or reanimation)

So On the charge the Wraiths kill 1.3 Grotesques, and the Grotesques kill .5 wraiths. Next round of combat, Wraiths do 3 (2.97) unsaved wounds and Grotesques do 1.

I did forget to give the Grotesques the extra combat weapon attack the first time I did the numbers, so that accounts for a little difference (4:.1.2 vs 5:1). However, I'm also being pretty generous assuming a 4+ FnP for the grotesques as you suggest, which I didn't previously. Most of the time it will be 5+, which cranks up the wounds to 5:1.2 first round, and kills an extra grotesque in the second round. For lethal dose to come into play, the 1 wound the grotesques get through every round has to be a lethal dose, and the wraiths still only lose a model 50% of the time then. Still not taking into account low LD of Grotesques, which is another drawback the Wraiths don't have.

If Grotesques get the charge they do fair better, no doubt. But If the Grotesques get the charge, the necron player is doing something very wrong. Also, if outside of the Canoptek Harvest the wounds do come out to be ~ even. These are pretty generous conditions for the grotesques though. Most of the time they'll be in a raider, accompanied by a Character, meaning units of 4 + whatever Char you put with them. One unsaved wound on a Char from the wraiths will double them out (whooray T3 characters), and the characters dmg output will be at best the same as the Grotesques.

You're math is wrong, because 1. Grotesques from the Grotesquirie, get a random bonus which can in fact include +1 ST, +1 T, 2. Grotesques eventually get It Will not Die, so your facing them eventually with FNP and It Will not Die 3. They get Rampage, if you out number them.

I've done the math on this and even with the 3+ 4+ the Wraiths won't wipe out the Grotesques. In fact the Grotesques eventually grind them down. Also any instant deaths worsen the Wraiths RP.

Also 5 Grotesques vs. 6 wraiths and there's really no reason to think you would not get the charge.

**Red Corsair**

BoomWolf wrote:
Byte wrote:
Alcibiades wrote:
People are going on about wraiths, but as far as I can tell the most improved units in the codex are Flayed Ones and Triarch Praetorians, both of which have turned into murder machines. Praetorians as part of the Judicator formation especially, though that shares the same synapse-like issues as Canoptek Harvest. (I really like this by the way. It seems that GW has gone the route of making single units the lynchpins in the formations, which makes sense because they are machines being controlled from a central core. I like this a lot actually.)

Anyway for reasons stated above I don't think that Wraiths will normally be used in that specific formation and so their (sometime) 4+ RP will not be applicable.

Agreed. I think the Flayed Ones are the sleeper cell.

The main difference between flayed ones and wraiths comes in speed and durability. that's why nobody complains about flayed.
Both will murderize anything they can reach, but wraiths are fast moving, and feature a T5 3++ 4+++ profile-flayed? are slower, and far more easy to kill with a weak armor and no invuls, and they cannot chase you as quickly around if you try to outmaneuver them.
Flayed WILL hit like a truck, but at least you got a half-decent chance to kill them before they reach you. wraiths? not so much.

As for pretorians, I don't know what their formation does, but they still have the speed issue, even if they are harder to kill than the flayed.

Flayed ones are just as durable as a whole unit though. 20 wounds compared to 12 with a 4+ 4+++ rather then a 3++, if you add the dark harvest tax I almost get another 10 flayed ones. Flayed ones don't need to move fast since they can deploy ANYWHERE and basically make a zone of control where no one wants to send units. I'd rather run flayed ones personally, since you can make them from old necron warriors off ebay they are actually cheaper monetarily then wraiths as well.

If I am going to take a FA choice, it will be tomb blades through and through. With neb scopes a unit of ten kills a 3 HP vehicle every volley, wave serpents included. They currently are the most durable and point efficient unit in the book for killing armor which is the MAJOR deficiency in the new book.

Wraiths are great looking, but you need to remember they are expensive, have no shooting, and struggle to themselves kill things with a moderate save. 3ws 4 s6 ap- attacks is solid, but not amazing. They lack the volume to rely on rending tings that count like wraith knights and IK. Heck they even struggle to chop up 10 man tac squads. I think the slightly less durable but WAY more killy unit are the praetorians.

**SilverDevilfish**

BoomWolf wrote:

As for pretorians, I don't know what their formation does, but they still have the speed issue, even if they are harder to kill than the flayed.

Praetorians are Jump Infantry, they aren't exactly slow.

Are you thinking of Lychguard?

**NauticalKendall**

He might be referring to the I2

**Alcibiades**

Hell I'll figure out damage output on the charge against, I dunno, MEQ. I'll contrast three Flayed Ones, one Wraith with a particle caster, and a Triarch Praetorian with a rod. The Triarch is actually about 12 points cheaper than the other variants. This doesn't factor in overwatch or the enemy attacking. The Praetorian has the benefits from the Judicator Formation.

3 Flayed Ones
CC Attacks 1.875

Wraith

Particle Caster .185
CC Attacks .778
Total .963

Triarch Praetorian

Rod Shooting .864
Hammer of Wrath .22
CC Attacks 2.0
Total 3.084

If you give the Wraith Shred it goes up to about 1.1.

**SilverDevilfish**

Alcibiades wrote:
Hell I'll figure out damage output on the charge against, I dunno, MEQ. I'll contrast three Flayed Ones, one Wraith with a particle caster, and a Triarch Praetorian with a rod. The Triarch is actually about 12 points cheaper than the other variants. This doesn't factor in overwatch or the enemy attacking. The Praetorian has the benefits from the Judicator Formation.

3 Flayed Ones
CC Attacks 1.875

Wraith

Particle Caster .185
CC Attacks .778
Total .963

Triarch Praetorian

Rod Shooting .864
Hammer of Wrath .22
CC Attacks 2.0
Total 3.084

If you give the Wraith Shred it goes up to about 1.1.

That Praetorian math is pretty off.

Rod has 1 shot

1 x 2/3 x 2/3 = .444

3 CC attacks

3 x 1/2 x 2/3 = 1

1.667

**Alcibiades**

SilverDevilfish wrote:
Alcibiades wrote:
Hell I'll figure out damage output on the charge against, I dunno, MEQ. I'll contrast three Flayed Ones, one Wraith with a particle caster, and a Triarch Praetorian with a rod. The Triarch is actually about 12 points cheaper than the other variants. This doesn't factor in overwatch or the enemy attacking. The Praetorian has the benefits from the Judicator Formation.

3 Flayed Ones
CC Attacks 1.875

Wraith

Particle Caster .185
CC Attacks .778
Total .963

Triarch Praetorian

Rod Shooting .864
Hammer of Wrath .22
CC Attacks 2.0
Total 3.084

If you give the Wraith Shred it goes up to about 1.1.

That Praetorian math is pretty off.

Rod has 1 shot

1 x 2/3 x 2/3 = .444

3 CC attacks

3 x 1/2 x 2/3 = 1

1.667

Both of our maths is off.

Praetorian gets a reroll to hit and wound plus +1 BS for his formation.

Rod is actually ..79
Hammer is .22
CC is 2.

Total 3.01

**SilverDevilfish**

Alcibiades wrote:
SilverDevilfish wrote:
Alcibiades wrote:
Hell I'll figure out damage output on the charge against, I dunno, MEQ. I'll contrast three Flayed Ones, one Wraith with a particle caster, and a Triarch Praetorian with a rod. The Triarch is actually about 12 points cheaper than the other variants. This doesn't factor in overwatch or the enemy attacking. The Praetorian has the benefits from the Judicator Formation.

3 Flayed Ones
CC Attacks 1.875

Wraith

Particle Caster .185
CC Attacks .778
Total .963

Triarch Praetorian

Rod Shooting .864
Hammer of Wrath .22
CC Attacks 2.0
Total 3.084

If you give the Wraith Shred it goes up to about 1.1.

That Praetorian math is pretty off.

Rod has 1 shot

1 x 2/3 x 2/3 = .444

3 CC attacks

3 x 1/2 x 2/3 = 1

1.667

Both of our maths is off.

Praetorian gets a reroll to hit and wound plus +1 BS for his formation.

Rod is actually ..79
Hammer is .22
CC is 2.

Total 3.01

Ack missed the part where it was in a formation, however the formation doesn't effect CC because it only lasts till the end of the phase and is chosen in the shooting phase.

So your original Rod Shooting was right. But he should still only deal 1 wound in CC.

2.084

**Alcibiades**

SilverDevilfish wrote:
[

Ack missed the part where it was in a formation, however the formation doesn't effect CC because it only lasts till the end of the phase and is chosen in the shooting phase.

So your original Rod Shooting was right. But he should still only deal 1 wound in CC.

2.084

Ack, I didn't catch that. Thanks.

Still, he beats both other choices impressively, especially considering that he is cheaper.

**jy2**

Just had a battle using the new Necrons. This was the list I ran:

Catacomb Command Barge - Edge of Eternity, Nightshroud, Phase Shifters, Solar Thermasite

Transcendent C'tan

6x Immortals - Gauss, Night Scythe
5x Immortals - Gauss, Night Scythe
5x Immortals - Gauss, Night Scythe

7x Tomb Blades - All w/Particle Beams, 3+ Stealth
6x Wraiths - All w/Whip Coils
6x Wraiths - All w/Whip Coils

You can find the rest of my report here:

1850 Jy2's Wraithwing NEWcrons vs Space Marines with Tyrannic War Vets

**Alcibiades**

Come to think of it, a Praetorian with VB and PC has the exact same damage output as a Wraith agaiinst anything with a 2+ or 3+ and much higher otherwise (even higher if he gets HoW), and is cheaper.

Wraiths are not one of the units in the codex that make other units vanish. They are durable, but that is another issue.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
EDIT: wait no he doesn't since he is S5 instead of S6. Never mind. He'll still be better against 4+ or higher though.

**Mavnas**

4+ / 4+++ is nothing like 3++ / 4+++.

Power weapons will cut through them. (And are they high Init like the Wraiths or will they be carved up before they even swing?)

**Alcibiades**

Mavnas wrote:
4+ / 4+++ is nothing like 3++ / 4+++.

Power weapons will cut through them. (And are they high Init like the Wraiths or will they be carved up before they even swing?)

2 Int.

I think you mean 3+/4+++.

A maine sarge with a power sword wiill out 1/2 x 1/3 x 1/2 = 1/12 x 2 = 1/6 wounds on one. wooo.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh sorry you meant flayed ones. So 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 x 2 = 1/4 wounds.

**TompiQ**

Alcibiades wrote:
Mavnas wrote:
4+ / 4+++ is nothing like 3++ / 4+++.

Power weapons will cut through them. (And are they high Init like the Wraiths or will they be carved up before they even swing?)

2 Int.

I think you mean 3+/4+++.

A maine sarge with a power sword wiill out 1/2 x 1/3 x 1/2 = 1/12 x 2 = 1/6 wounds on one. wooo.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh sorry you meant flayed ones. So 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 x 2 = 1/4 wounds.

I think he is referring to the fact that wraiths has a 3 up invulnerable save versus the normal armour save on the flayed ones. So it is 3+/3++/4+++ vs 4+/4+++. At least with with the canoptek swarm in play.

**Alcibiades**

TompiQ wrote:
Alcibiades wrote:
Mavnas wrote:
4+ / 4+++ is nothing like 3++ / 4+++.

Power weapons will cut through them. (And are they high Init like the Wraiths or will they be carved up before they even swing?)

2 Int.

I think you mean 3+/4+++.

A maine sarge with a power sword wiill out 1/2 x 1/3 x 1/2 = 1/12 x 2 = 1/6 wounds on one. wooo.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh sorry you meant flayed ones. So 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 x 2 = 1/4 wounds.

I think he is referring to the fact that wraiths has a 3 up invulnerable save versus the normal armour save on the flayed ones. So it is 3+/3++/4+++ vs 4+/4+++. At least with with the canoptek swarm in play.

Sure, wraiths are more durable than flayed ones and most enemies will strike first... but even if you somehow magically get a 20-robot-ninja FO squad down to 10 before the strike they're still going to slaughter just about anything short of T8 or an AV11+ vehicle. Wraiths won't; they really don't have high damage output.

(Moreover wraiths only get RP in the formation and FOs always have it.)

**blaktoof**

Dr. Delorean wrote:
How do Necrons deal with Wraiths effectively?

Hard mode: without using Wraiths themselves.

Flayed ones....shooting...

a lot of people are deluded if they think they are keeping their 12 beast move unit with fleet and run within 12" of a 6" + normal run spyder every turn. The spyder is starting behind or to the side of the wraiths and the wraiths are moving away from it at roughly double its speed, and on the turn they charge triple its speed. The wraiths are not going into assault turn 2 and being in 12" of the spyder for RP most of the time.

an equal point of flayed ones to wraiths, the flayed ones getting charged will see the wraiths hit 12 times, cause 2 rends and 8 other wounds. Flayed ones on the other hand will most likely be in range of something to get +1 RP and reroll to RP. 8 other wounds will give 4 failed saves, 2 failed RP rolls, 1 failed after reroll, the 2 rends will on average give .5 casualties. lets be nice to the wraiths and round up, they killed 2 flayed ones, leaving 18. 18 flayed ones strike back with 72 attacks, assuming no PE or anything they get 36 hits, 20 wounds after shred rerolls. Wraiths will fail on average 7 saves, thats 3 dead and 1 wound floating. If they have RP, chances are they may not, they will still suffer 3 wounds, removing one. The following rounds where the wraiths no longer have the charge bonus will see them slowly eaten by flayed ones.

Speed is great, but when you end up moving out of what buffs you at the start of a turn, or have to stay close to it you have to decide sometimes to give up speed for buffs. Also speed is great, but an unit with 20 models that infiltrates has a large area it takes up, you can move through models, but you can't end within 1" of them. The wraiths are not just going to outmaneuver everything and rampage around untouchable like people think.

**Mavnas**

Alcibiades wrote:
TompiQ wrote:
Alcibiades wrote:
Mavnas wrote:
4+ / 4+++ is nothing like 3++ / 4+++.

Power weapons will cut through them. (And are they high Init like the Wraiths or will they be carved up before they even swing?)

2 Int.

I think you mean 3+/4+++.

A maine sarge with a power sword wiill out 1/2 x 1/3 x 1/2 = 1/12 x 2 = 1/6 wounds on one. wooo.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh sorry you meant flayed ones. So 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 x 2 = 1/4 wounds.

I think he is referring to the fact that wraiths has a 3 up invulnerable save versus the normal armour save on the flayed ones. So it is 3+/3++/4+++ vs 4+/4+++. At least with with the canoptek swarm in play.

Sure, wraiths are more durable than flayed ones and most enemies will strike first... but even if you somehow magically get a 20-robot-ninja FO squad down to 10 before the strike they're still going to slaughter just about anything short of T8 or an AV11+ vehicle. Wraiths won't; they really don't have high damage output.

(Moreover wraiths only get RP in the formation and FOs always have it.)

I referr you back to the unit I suggested for killing the Wraiths. Rerollable 3++ crusaders backed by DCAs who get 4 S4 AP3 attacks on the charge. The wraiths could survive, the FO... well, they got RP, I guess. Heck, the FO don't even swing before the crusaders who in this case can actually wound them well enough. If you keep the full ridiclousness of Severin Loth in there, RP drops to 5++, but at that point the FO are fighting nearly double their points and the fact that they get cut down before they swing isn't really that shocking.

Actually, FO have another potential counter. A LSS can drop a blind template weapon on them and nerf their killing power. I'm sure there's other things that blind out there. With necrons being decent in assault and many of them being I2, maybe Blind just got much more useful.

**endlesswaltz123**

Lias Issodan + A vindicare assassin as back up, and literally snipe the spider.

**Jaq Draco lives**

So its confirmed anyway that to get the proper durable rerolls takes one hell of a tax in the formations, I think the strengths have been overplayed.

**Desubot**

Ended up attempting to fight 4 of these formations in a 1500 point game. (12 wraiths and 12 scarab bases IIRC)

Yeah only managed to kill off 3-4 total wraiths before being tabled

**Solar Shock**

Desubot wrote:
Ended up attempting to fight 4 of these formations in a 1500 point game. (12 wraiths and 12 scarab bases IIRC)

Yeah only managed to kill off 3-4 total wraiths before being tabled

Hmm I can see the formation being taken by itself multiple times being a pain in the ass. But so thats what; 4 units of wraiths and 4 units of scarabs and 4 spyders. What did you take?
In the case id imagine playing to the mission being the most suitable tactic. I mean, this formation being spammed isn't that far off running unbound, as the spyder and scarabs aren't exactly a huge points tax, plus they actually provide decent advantages, the RP for the wraiths and a tarpit unit.

Bring the ork 5 flyer formation? twice? I mean if your simply looking for X beats Y, then there ya go?
I get that that's not what your looking for

But you could for example attempt to tarpit? while collecting VP's from objectives?

**Desubot**

Solar Shock wrote:
Desubot wrote:
Ended up attempting to fight 4 of these formations in a 1500 point game. (12 wraiths and 12 scarab bases IIRC)

Yeah only managed to kill off 3-4 total wraiths before being tabled

Hmm I can see the formation being taken by itself multiple times being a pain in the ass. But so thats what; 4 units of wraiths and 4 units of scarabs and 4 spyders. What did you take?
In the case id imagine playing to the mission being the most suitable tactic. I mean, this formation being spammed isn't that far off running unbound, as the spyder and scarabs aren't exactly a huge points tax, plus they actually provide decent advantages, the RP for the wraiths and a tarpit unit.

Bring the ork 5 flyer formation? twice? I mean if your simply looking for X beats Y, then there ya go?
I get that that's not what your looking for But you could for example attempt to tarpit? while collecting VP's from objectives?

Generic take call comers stuff. a Slannesh anti troop list. (FDP (doomrider YEAAHHHHHHHHH) S lord with jet pack, noise marines, two raptor squads, a vindicator, helldrake some obliterators.)
Me Vindicator did some work though. and the held rake killed of his scarabs that was holding objectives.

Another important thing is chucking something fearless can hold them off for a while. (2-3 turns if you are lucky and have invuls or enough bodies)

My take away from the game is unless you can get a clear shot off on them with ST10, dont bother and go for objectives and flyers mess em up if the are just spamming canopthic stuff.

In the end it was about to tie then it went to turn 7 and i got tabled. (he only lost 2 small immortal squads a cryptec some scarbs and only 1 full wraith squads so take what you will from that.

**Alcibiades**

God, what a boring game taking the same formation 4 times would be.

**sudojoe**

Aren't most tournaments now limiting to just one formation of anything?

Last time I looked over at BAO rules, they had that in there somewhere I think.

Doesn't stop you from getting like 12 wraiths but only one set of RP at least makes it more fair in those settings

**Red Corsair**

Alcibiades wrote:
God, what a boring game taking the same formation 4 times would be.

I know I wouldn't waste a precious afternoon playing that more then once just to see what it's like. I don't even think it would be that hard to beat on missions, just insanely boring. IMHO anyway.

**Solar Shock**

Red Corsair wrote:
Alcibiades wrote:
God, what a boring game taking the same formation 4 times would be.

I know I wouldn't waste a precious afternoon playing that more then once just to see what it's like. I don't even think it would be that hard to beat on missions, just insanely boring. IMHO anyway.

Yeh in general I cant see it being fun; competitve, more than likely, fun, doubtful.

hi,
I move 12"
I run
I roll some saves, which I make most of...
I move 12"
I charge
I kill you, either now or eventually
I move 12"
I charge

But yeh in general I think what you guys have said is clearly the way to deal with it; you need a unit with either bodies or saves that can endure a good beating. Other than that, play to mission and kill everything else.Im hoping with my orks I'll just tie em up, some 'ard boys might do well, 4+ so I get a save (AP5 I think? aren't they?), then tonnes of bodies to hold em there. Maybe even a multi-charge if I can, simply to lock 2 units. I'll probably die eventually, but not for a turn or 2.

with my DE, throw a speed bump, then use mobilty to stay away as long as possible, get fearless and FNP then get back in to tarpit further..... large unit of wyches? maybe they have a use after all

**Sasori**

sudojoe wrote:
Aren't most tournaments now limiting to just one formation of anything?

Last time I looked over at BAO rules, they had that in there somewhere I think.

Doesn't stop you from getting like 12 wraiths but only one set of RP at least makes it more fair in those settings

It Depends on how they rule the Decurion.

**koooaei**

Solar Shock wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
Alcibiades wrote:
God, what a boring game taking the same formation 4 times would be.

I know I wouldn't waste a precious afternoon playing that more then once just to see what it's like. I don't even think it would be that hard to beat on missions, just insanely boring. IMHO anyway.

Yeh in general I cant see it being fun; competitve, more than likely, fun, doubtful.

hi,
I move 12"
I run
I roll some saves, which I make most of...
I move 12"
I charge
I kill you, either now or eventually
I move 12"
I charge

But yeh in general I think what you guys have said is clearly the way to deal with it; you need a unit with either bodies or saves that can endure a good beating. Other than that, play to mission and kill everything else.Im hoping with my orks I'll just tie em up, some 'ard boys might do well, 4+ so I get a save (AP5 I think? aren't they?), then tonnes of bodies to hold em there. Maybe even a multi-charge if I can, simply to lock 2 units. I'll probably die eventually, but not for a turn or 2.

with my DE, throw a speed bump, then use mobilty to stay away as long as possible, get fearless and FNP then get back in to tarpit further..... large unit of wyches? maybe they have a use after all

Regular boyz seem more point-efficient. Wraiths have rending. But are ap- otherwise iirc. So, you'll still get your mighty 6+ and won't care about rends that much drowning him in bodies. I'd not hope to kill much. You'll need 36 s3 attacks to do a single wound before RP. So, basically, you're not gona kill anything in mellee as they're 2-wound models and he'd spam wounds around as your regular guyz are hitting at different ini with pk ones. So, in the end he'll have lots of 1-wound wraiths ready for the next charge.

But let's count how long would you hold. Let's say you've got a 20 strong ork squad with a nob and let's assume you're a boss at rolling mob rule.

6 wraiths charge and inflict ~ 8-10 unsaved wounds before fnp. So, i guess we'll be able to hold for 3-4 assault phases if we don't fail mob rule. Well, that's not something too great as a unit of 20 shootaboyz with rokkits and pk/bp nob is just 1/4 cheaper than a unit of 6 wraiths. But at the same time it's not so bad as wraiths are not obsec and you'll probably be able to bauble wrap your guyz a bit. And playing defensively is more tactically advantageous in this case.

Wraiths do seem too tough for the points from a mathhammer perspective, yep. But let's see how it goes on actual gaming tables.

**BoomWolf**

I've faced old wraiths enough to tell you that even a single unit that is left to do its thing will murderise its way through your backfield, mulching tanks and other ranged support units.

Four of them, that are nearly indestructible? I see no way to beat it without the cheesiest builds who rely on obvious balance flaws themselves.

Unless the formation contains some sort of backside we are not aware of, or does not give quite as much as we think-its broken. "kill the spider" is not a real option, as its a T6 W3 3+ 4+++ model on his own right, meaning he requires unrealistic firepower to begin with. anything said on the riptide/IK/NDK/WK being too durable-he makes it seem like a joke, considering he costs a fraction of them, and requires almost as much firepower. (50 points IIRC)