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changemod wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
New to this whole debate so I apologize but doesn't the Imperial Knight still run rough shod over Wraiths?

That much I5 rending? Nah. The fight could go either way, but there's no way the Knight isn't either dead or limping with more than the Wraith unit's points blown out of it.

6 Wraiths assuming charge (which is a toss up which will charge) do average of 2 glancing hits. The Knight with stomps and D weapons can kill the whole squad.

 BrotherGecko wrote:

changemod wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
New to this whole debate so I apologize but doesn't the Imperial Knight still run rough shod over Wraiths?

That much I5 rending? Nah. The fight could go either way, but there's no way the Knight isn't either dead or limping with more than the Wraith unit's points blown out of it.

6 Wraiths assuming charge (which is a toss up which will charge) do average of 2 glancing hits. The Knight with stomps and D weapons can kill the whole squad.

Pretty unlikely in one turn, allowing more glances next time.

On average the Knight will probably remove one, maybe two, Wraiths per combat round.

Well with a stomp roll of 6 the Knight would likely remove 2-4 Wraiths instantly. The D CC weapon doesn't allow RP so any hit that goes through IDs a Wraith. Plus every Wraith killed further decreases the chances of Wraiths doing anything per round.

So realistically an Imperial Knight is a very solid way to kill some Wraiths with the potential danger to itself due to good/bad rolling. Also while not directly point for point a Knight does damage outside of CC so its worth the extra points.

 BrotherGecko wrote:
Well with a stomp roll of 6 the Knight would likely remove 2-4 Wraiths instantly. The D CC weapon doesn't allow RP so any hit that goes through IDs a Wraith. Plus every Wraith killed further decreases the chances of Wraiths doing anything per round.

So realistically an Imperial Knight is a very solid way to kill some Wraiths with the potential danger to itself due to good/bad rolling. Also while not directly point for point a Knight does damage outside of CC so its worth the extra points.

Also to note, they are just as fast as the wraiths too.

So GW gave us one more reason why everyone should just field armies of Knights...

Bharring wrote:
So GW gave us one more reason why everyone should just field armies of Knights...

What do you think there plans was all along?

They want D weapons and superheavys in normal games to be a thing...

Just fought my first game against 7crons. He only took 3 wraiths, and they were in the Canoptek Harvest. I had Orks at 1850.

I only lost 16 to 10. I used 20 'ard shoota boys with a minimal nob to tie them up for 4 turns. (Mob rule really helped me stay in combat, btw, with minimal losses.) In the end the wraiths only scored 1 malestrom point, but I had to use double the points in boyz to stop them. I even killed one of them.

So for orks at least, we can assume that for every 40 points of wraiths taken you will need to allocate 80 points or so to them to slow them down.

Not sure what I'd do if I faced 18 of the things...conceed?

 JimOnMars wrote:
Just fought my first game against 7crons. He only took 3 wraiths, and they were in the Canoptek Harvest. I had Orks at 1850.

I only lost 16 to 10. I used 20 'ard shoota boys with a minimal nob to tie them up for 4 turns. (Mob rule really helped me stay in combat, btw, with minimal losses.) In the end the wraiths only scored 1 malestrom point, but I had to use double the points in boyz to stop them. I even killed one of them.

So for orks at least, we can assume that for every 40 points of wraiths taken you will need to allocate 80 points or so to them to slow them down.

Not sure what I'd do if I faced 18 of the things...conceed?

Isnt it obvious?

Mor Dakka

mor orks.

You will want to park your big blob of boys on objectives and hope to get them while you are being tarpited

 Desubot wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
Just fought my first game against 7crons. He only took 3 wraiths, and they were in the Canoptek Harvest. I had Orks at 1850.

I only lost 16 to 10. I used 20 'ard shoota boys with a minimal nob to tie them up for 4 turns. (Mob rule really helped me stay in combat, btw, with minimal losses.) In the end the wraiths only scored 1 malestrom point, but I had to use double the points in boyz to stop them. I even killed one of them.

So for orks at least, we can assume that for every 40 points of wraiths taken you will need to allocate 80 points or so to them to slow them down.

Not sure what I'd do if I faced 18 of the things...conceed?

Isnt it obvious?

Mor Dakka

mor orks.

You will want to park your big blob of boys on objectives and hope to get them while you are being tarpited

I was under the impresson that there was always more Orks.

 JimOnMars wrote:

So for orks at least, we can assume that for every 40 points of wraiths taken you will need to allocate 80 points or so to them to slow them down.

Not sure what I'd do if I faced 18 of the things...conceed?

18 Wraiths vs. Orks? Yeah you'll probably lose that game. I haven't played against the 7th Edition Necrons yet, but my friend just got into Necrons in December, and he loaded up on 12 Wraiths before he even knew what the new stats would be. So... I'll find out pretty quick.

As Orks, I can think of 3 things to really beat down Wraiths. Listed in order of effectiveness...

1) Morkanaut. Should be invincible in close-combat against Wraiths. Each failed wound is instant-death to a Wraith.
2) Warboss with a bunch of Boyz. Every Warboss hit that is a failed wound should be instant death for a Wraith.
2) Lootas. Volume of fire, wound on 2's. Just hope your opponent fails some saving throws. You'd need a lot of Lootas though. You'll only get to fire with them once or twice before the Wraiths attack, most likely. Need Boyz in front so they don't get assaulted.
3) MORE BOYZ

 Desubot wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
New to this whole debate so I apologize but doesn't the Imperial Knight still run rough shod over Wraiths?

They would have the best chance. But with no Invul can get hulled within two or three rounds. just better hope to roll those 6s and remove them off the table.


Edit: It also depends on the charge.

Lancer with an allied psyker casting invisibility on it; sit back and laugh at the wraiths until you roll a 6 on your stomp. Lots of wraiths? Castigator; auto-hit everything in B2B at S10 (but at i2).

The scary units or models out there are those with S10.
Annoying are also units that can tie up Wraiths for a few turns.
However, Wraiths are fast enough so that they can pick their fight.

Stompas should do fine for Orks. Just stomp away as Wraiths have no defense against a rolled 6. Otherwise mob the Spyder. It has no Invul Save so it will have to rely on its RP rolls to survive. And with 3 wounds its not too hard to drop. Stormboyz jump over the Boyz wrangling the Wraiths. Molly whop the Spyder and watch the lolz roll in.

 Manchu wrote:
thread merge:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/634353.page

Thank you that was annoying and it lasted longer then i expected... there are like 6 threads dedicated to necrons atm...

 Desubot wrote:

You will want to park your big blob of boys on objectives and hope to get them while you are being tarpited

I could have done that...just string the boyz along behind the combat so that they keep marching over the objective as they pile in.

Gotta try that next time, thanks!

Going over options... it seems the best and most effective option for Grey Knights would be Purifiers, if they get off Force AND Hammerhand we'd be looking at at least 3 rounds of combat being tied up. Purifiers still lose in the end, with 3 out of six wraiths remaining assuming only a 5+ RP.

Force is ID right? Because that would make RP a 6+.

 BrotherGecko wrote:
Force is ID right? Because that would make RP a 6+.

Or 5+ inside a Decursion.

For Tyranids, I have a feeling Dakkafexes (possibly w/ adrenal glands) and Flyrants are gonna be the go-to counters.

Zoanthropes could also provide a decent counter.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
Force is ID right? Because that would make RP a 6+.

Or 5+ inside a Decursion.

4+ if you take decurion AND a cryptek.

For Tyranids the answer is always Flyrants!

Especially now that there will be less Necron flyers on the board..

Actually that is probably the perfect counter to a 7th Necron wraithstar as the same build is going to have 2+ less NS now

bodazoka wrote:
For Tyranids the answer is always Flyrants!

Especially now that there will be less Necron flyers on the board..

Actually that is probably the perfect counter to a 7th Necron wraithstar as the same build is going to have 2+ less NS now

I would not be remotely surprised if a Deathbringer Flight became pretty common in tournaments.

If you take the Judacator Battalion and give the Praetorians NS you can choose a Flyrant a turn and blast it with NS that reroll TO Wound lol.

I'd like to say, for my Blood Angel's, beating the Necrons is going to involve spamming Death Company but that just doesn't seem like it is going to work. Maybe on the charge they will stand a chance. For my Crimson Fists, the answer appears to be MOAR Sternguard. Again, probably not going to work out all that well since the points put into it.

Edit: Oh, and no less than three people at my FLGS play Necrons so this is a problem I will have to deal with.

As much str 5-7 shooting as you can get. Against regular shots they are MON chaos marines.

S4 average 18 hits for a kill
S5 average 12 hits for a kill
S6 average 9 hits for a kill
S7 average 7.2 hits for a kill

The thing is that you dont need to kill an entire unit. You need to get each unit down to about 3 wraiths and they are not scary anymore. At that point its not reliable to get specific results.

Get units that put out the bullets and you should not worry about wraiths. Which honestly if you are preparing for things like tyranids or Wave serpents you are gonna want as many shots as you can,

Each wraith is gonna do less than a wound to a marine on the charge. Its in mass numbers when they become a problem, able to wipe out entire units.

Who did the math on what a wound negation a 4+ then a 5+ was or could tell me the formulae I think it's 83%

I disagree (@leth). Multiple sets of tiny amounts of wraiths can hop into your army and tarpit your important units even after you thought you "mostly de-clawed" their unit. And you can't just let them roam free, or they're going to find a nice squishy tank in your back lines and eat it. Even a single wraith is like hitting your rear armor with an assault cannon. (Statistically identical, in fact.)

Their damage output is decent, but actually pretty irrelevant to how good they are. They could have 1 ws1 s1 attack and I'd still run them:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hollismason wrote:
Who did the math on what a wound negation a 4+ then a 5+ was or could tell me the formulae I think it's 83%

Not totally sure what you're asking here, but I'll just broadly answer.

If they get 3++/4++, (virtually any wound) that's statistically identical to a 2++. (83.3333%)
If they get 3++/5++, (s10 and ID special rule) that's a little less than a 2++. (77.77%)
If they just get 3++, (str D) then 66.66%
And finally a 6 on a D or remove from play effect for a certain kill.

Also in the rare case that they have a lord break open a res orb for them when you try to shoot at them, they will have an astounding 91.7% damage mitigation.

And all that mitigation is AFTER you apply your own accuracy mitigation ie. failed hits and wounds.

In a hilarious example, in that last situation, it would take 1728 las gun shots to kill the unit (The Lord would still be alive)

 Leth wrote:
As much str 5-7 shooting as you can get. Against regular shots they are MON chaos marines.

S4 average 18 hits for a kill
S5 average 12 hits for a kill
S6 average 9 hits for a kill
S7 average 7.2 hits for a kill

The thing is that you dont need to kill an entire unit. You need to get each unit down to about 3 wraiths and they are not scary anymore. At that point its not reliable to get specific results.

Get units that put out the bullets and you should not worry about wraiths. Which honestly if you are preparing for things like tyranids or Wave serpents you are gonna want as many shots as you can,

Each wraith is gonna do less than a wound to a marine on the charge. Its in mass numbers when they become a problem, able to wipe out entire units.

The problem is that you don't have time to whittle them down. They're going to be in CC with your Riptide/Centurions/whatever your most critical unit is tying it up by turn 3 at the latest (realistically, turn 2). That means you get either one or two turns of shooting before they're stuck in.

At BS4, it takes ~27 strength 4 shots to kill one Wraith. If you want to cripple the unit then you're going to need at least 100 bolter rounds to do the job, on average. That's 50 marines rapid-firing into a single unit. That's not very realistic.

It doesn't get significantly better with higher strength units, since the strength of the weapon rises proportionally with how rare/low rof it is. It takes ~72 strength 5 shots to kill 4 wraiths (at BS4) and 44 strength 7 shots.

And this is only for one unit. If they run Wraithwing and have three units... take all the math above and multiply it by 3. Obviously, that'd be cray.

Really, there's no point in even trying to kill or maim the wraiths, imo. The only solid strategy is to work around them, and that means ignoring them with tarpit units of your own (guardsmen blobs and MSU come to mind). If you can't do that, then you're either a Tyranid penta-Tyrant list or you're screwed.

niv-mizzet wrote:
I disagree (@leth). Multiple sets of tiny amounts of wraiths can hop into your army and tarpit your important units even after you thought you "mostly de-clawed" their unit. And you can't just let them roam free, or they're going to find a nice squishy tank in your back lines and eat it. Even a single wraith is like hitting your rear armor with an assault cannon. (Statistically identical, in fact.)

Their damage output is decent, but actually pretty irrelevant to how good they are. They could have 1 ws1 s1 attack and I'd still run them:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hollismason wrote:
Who did the math on what a wound negation a 4+ then a 5+ was or could tell me the formulae I think it's 83%

Not totally sure what you're asking here, but I'll just broadly answer.

If they get 3++/4++, (virtually any wound) that's statistically identical to a 2++. (83.3333%)
If they get 3++/5++, (s10 and ID special rule) that's a little less than a 2++. (77.77%)
If they just get 3++, (str D) then 66.66%
And finally a 6 on a D or remove from play effect for a certain kill.

Also in the rare case that they have a lord break open a res orb for them when you try to shoot at them, they will have an astounding 91.7% damage mitigation.

And all that mitigation is AFTER you apply your own accuracy mitigation is failed hits and wounds.

Can you post the formulae for that, I always screw it up or forget it even though I've done it before.

If you want to get a %, assume 100 wounds.
Multiply it by the percent chance to fail the save behind a decimal (so 0.33 repeating aka 1/3 for a 3++)
Multiply that number by the chance to fail fnp/RP. (Again behind a decimal, so 0.5 for 4+)
That number is now your total % chance of failure. Subtract it from 100 to get your chance of success, or you could go through the whole process plugging in chances of success instead.

Since warhammer uses d6's, important numbers to know are:
.1666, .3333, .5, .6666, and .83333 That's 1/6 to 5/6 in decimal form in order.