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 GoliothOnline wrote:
I I roll for my Psychic Disciplines.

Horrors Squad 1 = Incursion and Primaris Power
Horrors Squad 2 = Dark Flame and Primaris Power

GUO = Life Leech, Enfeeble and Endurance. (Not too bad, happy to see Enfeeble) and ofc Primaris for generating all from 1 discipline.

DP 1 = Dominate, Invisibility and Hallucination, Primaris
DP 2 = Iron Arm, Enfeeble, Life Leech, Primaris

I don't believe you get the Primaris from Psychic Focus. Because they have 'Daemon of ...', they get Chaos Focus. So they all have their God's Primaris Power and can never get Psychic Focus.

Bharring wrote:
They're not superkilly, no. But they can tear anything with average durability - like most infantry or most vehicles - apart easily. They hit too hard to be considered just a tarpit. And, against most targets, are ready to rip something else up next turn.

The super killy things - Wraithlords, meganobz, Termies, etc - still die far too quickly at the hands of Wraiths. And Wraiths don't die too quickly to them at all. And are cheaper.

So they hard counter those killy units. Some of them even take wraiths a while to chew through. Which would make sense, if that were their role.

The problem is, Wraiths hard counter everything else, too. And have the mobility to pick their targets. So, they win big if they hold TH/SS Termies for a while before killing them, but they win bigger by attacking anything else.

For most armies, there just isn't a counter, and MSU tarpitting doesn't work, because (1) even most MSU is still too expensive, (2) Wraiths can pick their target with their mobility, and (3), Wraiths are too killy, so countercharging them is unlikely to hold them.

This might be the case. I don't know yet. I haven't fought them yet.

 undertow wrote:

 GoliothOnline wrote:
I I roll for my Psychic Disciplines.

Horrors Squad 1 = Incursion and Primaris Power
Horrors Squad 2 = Dark Flame and Primaris Power

GUO = Life Leech, Enfeeble and Endurance. (Not too bad, happy to see Enfeeble) and ofc Primaris for generating all from 1 discipline.

DP 1 = Dominate, Invisibility and Hallucination, Primaris
DP 2 = Iron Arm, Enfeeble, Life Leech, Primaris

I don't believe you get the Primaris from Psychic Focus. Because they have 'Daemon of ...', they get Chaos Focus. So they all have their God's Primaris Power and can never get Psychic Focus.

Chaos Psychic Focus does not override Psychic Focus. Any "Daemon of X" or "CSM of X" which is a Psyker gains Psychic Focus AND Chaos Psychic Focus due to the rules not being singular, without an either or statement there is nothing preventing a Daemon / Chaos unit / model with Chaos Psychic Focus from benefiting from Psychic Focus.

Alcibiades wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Why are Wraiths seen as not killy?
.

They're not. 3 assault marines (about the same cost as a Wraith with WCs, I think?) have more damage output on the charge against MEQ than a Wraith does.

Behold!

3 pistol shots = 2/3 x 1/2 x 1/3 = 1/9 x 3 = 1/3 .33
3 hammer of wrath = 1/2 x 1/3 x = 1/6 x 3 = 1/2 .5
9 CC attacks = 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/3 = 1/12 x 9 = 3/4 .75

total a little over 1.5

vs

rending part of attacks = 1/2 x 1/6 = 1/12 x 4 = 1/3
other part of attacks = 1/2 x 2/3 x 1/3 = 2/9 x 4 = 8/9

total about 1.25

albeit the wraith will go earlier

You didn't do your armour saves though. Overall the assault marines do 0.5 wounds in total, while the wraith does 0.63 wounds in total since the rend part ignores armours. So even with pistol shots and hammer of wrath going the wraith still does more damage. Those pistol shots and hammer of wrath attacks are not always going to be the case either. Heck, in order to get Hammer of Wrath in the first place you need to only move 6" before assaulting which is a large stretch on your manoeuvrability capabilities. Not to mention you lose those parts in 2nd round onwards anyway and are damage per round.

 DarthOvious wrote:


You didn't do your armour saves though. .

I did. That's the last fraction (1/3) in all but the Wraith's rending calculation. They do indeed do more damage.

I gave them both the charge in order compare charge vs. charge. In non-charge compared to non-charge, the marines would do worse due to lack of hammer of wrath and vecause the charge gives them 3 more attacks as opposed to the Wraith's +1..

Bharring wrote:
The super killy things - Wraithlords, meganobz, Termies, etc - still die far too quickly at the hands of Wraiths.

Not so fast...Meganobs with killsaws actually win! (NO harvest or Decurion):

turn 1 (assume Wraiths Charge) they get 0.5 wounds on meganob/wraith
Meganobz return 0.55 wounds each!

After that, the wraiths only deal 0.375 wounds each (mostly because of rending)

With harvest (5+RP) the Meganobz only deal 0.37 wounds, with 4+RP it's only .27wounds.

But if da boyz can kill da spydur, nobs win!

(Can anyone check my math?) thx

 JimOnMars wrote:

But if da boyz can kill da spydur, nobs win!

Silly rabbit. Orks always win..... <insert over used ork quote here>

Alcibiades wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:


You didn't do your armour saves though. .

I did. That's the last fraction (1/3) in all but the Wraith's rending calculation. They do indeed do more damage.

I gave them both the charge in order compare charge vs. charge. In non-charge compared to non-charge, the marines would do worse due to lack of hammer of wrath and vecause the charge gives them 3 more attacks as opposed to the Wraith's +1..

Ah ok misread the calculations then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sanguinary Guard with a Priest and Banner do well if they get the charge.

If the SG and Priest charge they cause 3 wounds between them.

If the Wraiths Charge then they cause 2.22 wounds to the SG.

This is taking into account WS5 and FNP thanks to the priest and I tried to include the master crafted re-rolls as well.

Bharring wrote:
They're not superkilly, no. But they can tear anything with average durability - like most infantry or most vehicles - apart easily. They hit too hard to be considered just a tarpit. And, against most targets, are ready to rip something else up next turn.

The super killy things - Wraithlords, meganobz, Termies, etc - still die far too quickly at the hands of Wraiths. And Wraiths don't die too quickly to them at all. And are cheaper.

So they hard counter those killy units. Some of them even take wraiths a while to chew through. Which would make sense, if that were their role.

The problem is, Wraiths hard counter everything else, too. And have the mobility to pick their targets. So, they win big if they hold TH/SS Termies for a while before killing them, but they win bigger by attacking anything else.

For most armies, there just isn't a counter, and MSU tarpitting doesn't work, because (1) even most MSU is still too expensive, (2) Wraiths can pick their target with their mobility, and (3), Wraiths are too killy, so countercharging them is unlikely to hold them.

Yep, this is our group's experience with them so far. They're bully units that are so durable that they can fight against things that bully units shouldn't be able to beat, like some dedicated elite cc units.

Basically the only thing they DIDN'T give them is the ability to fire their 3++ save as a really good 60" gun.

And to write it in fluff as a "point-defense" weapon to boot

Anyways, yes. wraiths are pants now, decurion wraiths are pants on fire.

 GoliothOnline wrote:

 undertow wrote:

 GoliothOnline wrote:
I I roll for my Psychic Disciplines.

Horrors Squad 1 = Incursion and Primaris Power
Horrors Squad 2 = Dark Flame and Primaris Power

GUO = Life Leech, Enfeeble and Endurance. (Not too bad, happy to see Enfeeble) and ofc Primaris for generating all from 1 discipline.

DP 1 = Dominate, Invisibility and Hallucination, Primaris
DP 2 = Iron Arm, Enfeeble, Life Leech, Primaris

I don't believe you get the Primaris from Psychic Focus. Because they have 'Daemon of ...', they get Chaos Focus. So they all have their God's Primaris Power and can never get Psychic Focus.

Chaos Psychic Focus does not override Psychic Focus. Any "Daemon of X" or "CSM of X" which is a Psyker gains Psychic Focus AND Chaos Psychic Focus due to the rules not being singular, without an either or statement there is nothing preventing a Daemon / Chaos unit / model with Chaos Psychic Focus from benefiting from Psychic Focus.

Except this phrase from the Psychic Focus rule:

“If during the course of the game, that Psyker gains a psychic power from a different psychic discipline, he immediately loses Psychic Focus (and the associated primaris power).”

 undertow wrote:

 GoliothOnline wrote:

 undertow wrote:

 GoliothOnline wrote:
I I roll for my Psychic Disciplines.

Horrors Squad 1 = Incursion and Primaris Power
Horrors Squad 2 = Dark Flame and Primaris Power

GUO = Life Leech, Enfeeble and Endurance. (Not too bad, happy to see Enfeeble) and ofc Primaris for generating all from 1 discipline.

DP 1 = Dominate, Invisibility and Hallucination, Primaris
DP 2 = Iron Arm, Enfeeble, Life Leech, Primaris

I don't believe you get the Primaris from Psychic Focus. Because they have 'Daemon of ...', they get Chaos Focus. So they all have their God's Primaris Power and can never get Psychic Focus.

Chaos Psychic Focus does not override Psychic Focus. Any "Daemon of X" or "CSM of X" which is a Psyker gains Psychic Focus AND Chaos Psychic Focus due to the rules not being singular, without an either or statement there is nothing preventing a Daemon / Chaos unit / model with Chaos Psychic Focus from benefiting from Psychic Focus.

Except this phrase from the Psychic Focus rule:

“If during the course of the game, that Psyker gains a psychic power from a different psychic discipline, he immediately loses Psychic Focus (and the associated primaris power).”

Except Chaos Psychic Focus is it's own rule which is granted before the game begins, which means it's a power the model knows already, and doesn't conflict with powers generated or learned DURING the game. Much like Force and Force Weapons which is explained as NOT removing Psychic Focus or the likes.

My 20 Battlewagon Shoota Boyz jumped 6 Wraiths, lost combat, took some Mob Rule Wounds, survived the Necron Assault phase, and held down the Wraiths until the Warbikers could show up to finish them off. The Bosspole Nob just kept the Boyz from getting wiped in combat. Meanwhile, the rest of his army faltered against my Battlewagon mounted Lootas and Shoota Boyz and Kustom Mega Kannons. He didn't bring enough Gauss and his massed Tesla shots couldn't touch the BWs.

Marines have a few ways. Sternguard hellfire rounds, gravs (not the best use, of course, but gravs have a highrate of Fire as well...), kheres assault cannons, stormtalons even have a decent shot.

Wraiths are great at absorbing low rate of fire, high strength and ap shots. We just need to use our weapons that have a higher rate of fire to burn down the wraiths. Or atleast shoot them to the point they aren't going to do a lot of damage in combat, aswell.

If he's using the canoptek formation, make sure to kill the spiders first, of course.

I like that a lot of these suggestions just assume that the necron player is oging to move their Wraiths in a straight line slowly toward you or that there will just be 1 unit.

Hollismason wrote:
I like that a lot of these suggestions just assume that the necron player is oging to move their Wraiths in a straight line slowly toward you or that there will just be 1 unit.

It's not much different then the opposite side assuming every advantage under the sun all the time either. This thread is pretty much useless at this point, people will just have to play it out for themselves and see.

I'd like to have an idea that might do something when they face them, beyond just hoping to not care that each of these cheap units that can eliminate almost anything they want in one game turn of combat, and have the mobility to get to anything, somehow leave me with enough to handle the rest of your army

At least with Serpent Spam, there were theoretical counters for most books. Clearly, most weren't TAC options, but there were ways to play against them.
For instance, any squad with Krak grenades could deny lots ground until they were removed. Or you could pod things in close. Or you could rush them. Or AV14. Or lots of AV12 w/S7 shooting. None of these would both be effective enough and be TAC enough to win in tournies more than Serpent Spam, but at least there are options.
And, with Serpents, endurance was very hard. If it got close enough, up to an EV of 11.5 s6/7 shots, high S, but also high AP (less than 1 AP2 every other round). Usually an EV of 8.5, though. And half ignored cover.
Wraiths may spend 2 full rounds moving forward. If the Necron player is much worse than you, and you're very mobile, on occasion it could be 3. Other way around, 1 is quite possible.
Then, for 135 points, they get 12 s6 rending hits in melee on the charge, and another 9 on the other half of the turn. Even assuming no charge bonus, that's *18* s6 *actual-rending* attacks that ignore cover.

As for survivability, Serpent can get a 3+ cover, at the cost of 2/3rds of its shooting. Wraiths get a 3++ for anything. AV 12 is moderately harder to hurt than t5, but (1) Wraiths have 6 total wounds compared to 3 HP, (2) Anything Ignores Cover still gives wraiths a 3++, but no save for Serpents, (3) AV10 rear means no pen protection, and is really easy to pop, and (4) either the Serpent is firing 4 shots at a safe distance, 7 shots in charge threat range, or has no pen protection, meaning the first pen through its jink hoses it hard. One hit from anything can kill at most 1/3rd of the wraiths if its lucky. One hit from the same things and weaker can kill the entire Serpent if its lucky.

And if the Serpent gets aggressive, you can charge it with just about anything s4+ and kill it. If just about anything charges wraiths, they might do a wound, but you lose that unit, and probably give the wraiths a free d6" move.

So that's why this thread is necessary. When the Serpent came out, it was clearly broken, but there were weaknesses. There were counters. We still haven't found a counter for Wraiths for most factions.

(Sternies:
2x(2/3)(5/6)(1/3) = 2x(5/27) wounds/round in rapid fire. 1 sternie kills about 1/6th of a Wraith that round.
10(2)(5/27) is roughly 4 wounds. Kill 2 wraiths, charged by 4 (success even on snakeeyes), lose 5 on the first round of combat, another 3 or 4 the next round. Manage to actually hold the unit for 2 game turns, and kill 90 points of it, but it costs you a whole 10 man sternie squad. And that's assuming that maneuvering goes exactly how you want it.

One of the best options, but still a loss.)

Bharring wrote:
I'd like to have an idea that might do something when they face them, beyond just hoping to not care that each of these cheap units that can eliminate almost anything they want in one game turn of combat, and have the mobility to get to anything, somehow leave me with enough to handle the rest of your army

At least with Serpent Spam, there were theoretical counters for most books. Clearly, most weren't TAC options, but there were ways to play against them.
For instance, any squad with Krak grenades could deny lots ground until they were removed. Or you could pod things in close. Or you could rush them. Or AV14. Or lots of AV12 w/S7 shooting. None of these would both be effective enough and be TAC enough to win in tournies more than Serpent Spam, but at least there are options.
And, with Serpents, endurance was very hard. If it got close enough, up to an EV of 11.5 s6/7 shots, high S, but also high AP (less than 1 AP2 every other round). Usually an EV of 8.5, though. And half ignored cover.
Wraiths may spend 2 full rounds moving forward. If the Necron player is much worse than you, and you're very mobile, on occasion it could be 3. Other way around, 1 is quite possible.
Then, for 135 points, they get 12 s6 rending hits in melee on the charge, and another 9 on the other half of the turn. Even assuming no charge bonus, that's *18* s6 *actual-rending* attacks that ignore cover.

As for survivability, Serpent can get a 3+ cover, at the cost of 2/3rds of its shooting. Wraiths get a 3++ for anything. AV 12 is moderately harder to hurt than t5, but (1) Wraiths have 6 total wounds compared to 3 HP, (2) Anything Ignores Cover still gives wraiths a 3++, but no save for Serpents, (3) AV10 rear means no pen protection, and is really easy to pop, and (4) either the Serpent is firing 4 shots at a safe distance, 7 shots in charge threat range, or has no pen protection, meaning the first pen through its jink hoses it hard. One hit from anything can kill at most 1/3rd of the wraiths if its lucky. One hit from the same things and weaker can kill the entire Serpent if its lucky.

And if the Serpent gets aggressive, you can charge it with just about anything s4+ and kill it. If just about anything charges wraiths, they might do a wound, but you lose that unit, and probably give the wraiths a free d6" move.

So that's why this thread is necessary. When the Serpent came out, it was clearly broken, but there were weaknesses. There were counters. We still haven't found a counter for Wraiths for most factions.

(Sternies:
2x(2/3)(5/6)(1/3) = 2x(5/27) wounds/round in rapid fire. 1 sternie kills about 1/6th of a Wraith that round.
10(2)(5/27) is roughly 4 wounds. Kill 2 wraiths, charged by 4 (success even on snakeeyes), lose 5 on the first round of combat, another 3 or 4 the next round. Manage to actually hold the unit for 2 game turns, and kill 90 points of it, but it costs you a whole 10 man sternie squad. And that's assuming that maneuvering goes exactly how you want it.

One of the best options, but still a loss.)

Yep exactly thats the thing serpents are not nearly as scary now that 7th changed jink, before i could shoot fully and get a 4 up each turn now if i jink i will get a 3+ yes but wont be nearly as effective shooting. They also have decent counters(one being necrons tomb blades w/ gauss and ignores cover) also anything that will catch them in cc(like wraiths).

Any other unit that was deemed op by the masses usually people have answers, this post has went on for 23 pages and mathhammered out none are great unless you throw 2-3x the points at it and the rest of the necron army is sitting there unscathed, i wish they kept the phase shifter and went to 4++ with the T5 boost as that wouldve made them a very balanced unit thats while still great to use not downright auto include.

It's not much different then the opposite side assuming every advantage under the sun all the time either. This thread is pretty much useless at this point, people will just have to play it out for themselves and see.

Ya this.

People need to quit freaking out. Wraiths are TWC-lite, meaning they're great but hardly unmanageable.

The vast majority of LGS's and tourneys I've seen have a 2 source limit or some variation of. So, to get the more durable version that everyone is afraid of means one of two things.. either its a decurion formation for more than 1 harvest formation meaning no significant ranged presence or mobility is left in the army, OR theres only a single harvest formation + a CAD/other formation. This is the weaker approach IMO.

The alternative and probably the more competitive approach is to spam normal wraiths in a CAD, i.e. wraithwing. Here were looking at a potential tier 1 build. So whats new? Better wraiths!!!! Worse telsa worse CCBs worse anni barges worse scythes no mss no doom/despairs no voltaics no lances. Hmmm.
Meanwhile the majority of effective answers to this are torrenting medium strength weaponry and nothings changed here. S7+ does literally the same as it did before. S6 slightly worse. And again TWC-lite because no true deathstar build exists and no S10 access. D lords also took a hit. Ya they can maintain unit coherency but the mobility has definitely taken a hit due to jetpack status. This combined with the change to beasts and T5 are subtle changes that mean wraiths are better off alone.. which in turn means less tanking nonsense from D lords.

The unit is damn good no doubt. Probably even capable of altering the metagame, but its not sky falling territory.

Bharring wrote:
I'd like to have an idea that might do something when they face them, beyond just hoping to not care that each of these cheap units that can eliminate almost anything they want in one game turn of combat,

They can't. Their damage output is mediocre. 6 Wraiths (240+ points) will kill 3.5 MEQ on average, or put 4.5 wounds on Tyrannid Warriors, or 2.5 wounds on Meganobs.

Alcibiades wrote:

Bharring wrote:
I'd like to have an idea that might do something when they face them, beyond just hoping to not care that each of these cheap units that can eliminate almost anything they want in one game turn of combat,

They can't. Their damage output is mediocre. 6 Wraiths (240+ points) will kill 3.5 MEQ on average, or put 4.5 wounds on Tyrannid Warriors, or 2.5 wounds on Meganobs.

Ja anything with an invul or just big enough with fearless can hold them for a good time. (raptors and lord holding them for like 3-4 turns)

Just gonna need a nice screening unit to deal with 1 unit of 6.

Multiple will be an issue.

Relied on the wrong persons math.

But anyways. About 200 points. Kill 2/6 models in a 270 point unit. Then, losing 3.5 models a turn, you hold them up 3 rounds of combat, so 1.5 game turns. Without killing another Wraith.

Assuming nothing goes wrong, you're spending most of the cost of the unit you want to stop, hurting it by 1/3rd, and slowing it for 2 turns.

Better, but still losing by a wide margin.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
I like that a lot of these suggestions just assume that the necron player is oging to move their Wraiths in a straight line slowly toward you or that there will just be 1 unit.

It's not much different then the opposite side assuming every advantage under the sun all the time either. This thread is pretty much useless at this point, people will just have to play it out for themselves and see.

Agreed. We'll see what happens when the GT results start rolling in.

dominuschao wrote:

It's not much different then the opposite side assuming every advantage under the sun all the time either. This thread is pretty much useless at this point, people will just have to play it out for themselves and see.

Ya this.

People need to quit freaking out. Wraiths are TWC-lite, meaning they're great but hardly unmanageable.

The vast majority of LGS's and tourneys I've seen have a 2 source limit or some variation of. So, to get the more durable version that everyone is afraid of means one of two things.. either its a decurion formation for more than 1 harvest formation meaning no significant ranged presence or mobility is left in the army, OR theres only a single harvest formation + a CAD/other formation. This is the weaker approach IMO.

The alternative and probably the more competitive approach is to spam normal wraiths in a CAD, i.e. wraithwing. Here were looking at a potential tier 1 build. So whats new? Better wraiths!!!! Worse telsa worse CCBs worse anni barges worse scythes no mss no doom/despairs no voltaics no lances. Hmmm.
Meanwhile the majority of effective answers to this are torrenting medium strength weaponry and nothings changed here. S7+ does literally the same as it did before. S6 slightly worse. And again TWC-lite because no true deathstar build exists and no S10 access. D lords also took a hit. Ya they can maintain unit coherency but the mobility has definitely taken a hit due to jetpack status. This combined with the change to beasts and T5 are subtle changes that mean wraiths are better off alone.. which in turn means less tanking nonsense from D lords.

The unit is damn good no doubt. Probably even capable of altering the metagame, but its not sky falling territory.

I disagree about the most competitive approach. I think the truly good players will eventually use a decurion with 2 or 3 bare bones minimum size harvests. (230ish a piece). Having units of 6 wraiths each is overkill. They don't need to be 6 strong to live, or 6 strong to go bully units or tarpit good ones. They work better as msu support units. And it literally takes ALL the enemy firepower if not more to kill 3 spyders in cover behind wraiths with RP. If they try to focus them down first, the rest of your army is going to be completely unscathed.

I could see a list like that shaping up to be pretty strong. Thing is there's plenty of builds capable of erasing all 3 spyders in the first turn or two. It's because of this 'lynchpin' effect and also the greater restriction on fire support options, not to mention higher compulsory investment that makes me think decurion is not the best choice. Bikes otoh..

dominuschao wrote:
I could see a list like that shaping up to be pretty strong. Thing is there's plenty of builds capable of erasing all 3 spyders in the first turn or two. It's because of this 'lynchpin' effect and also the greater restriction on fire support options, not to mention higher compulsory investment that makes me think decurion is not the best choice. Bikes otoh..

It doesn't matter if most armies can take out the Spyders in the first two turns. That's 150 pts of your army that they spent 1 to 1 1/2 of their shooting phases to take out. The wraiths are very likely in charge range by then, and if they're picking their targets well then the won't need RP to tie it up for most of the game or kill it in a few assault phases. T5 2W and 3++ will suffice against most things. If you've got a well built Decurion then they'll regret spending those turns shooting at Spyders because you'll have too many durable bodies to remove off of objectives while you whittle down your enemy's offensive capabilities and kill any ObSec they brought.

I'm not saying you HAVE to bring a Decurion to make a good Necron list. I think it and CAD-Crons are both perfectly viable as strong armies.

Are they really, though? Is the lack of obsec for Decurion offset by the increase in durability? Are they going to table the opponent (either by shooting or outlasting them) or are they going to lose to that wave serpent sitting next to that sad sad Ghost Ark that isn't obsec?

To put some numbers to it:

Best-case scenario, you have an AP 2 weapon that doesn't double out a Necron. So no armor save (and let's assume it's not a wraith/something with an invulnerable save). So instead of a 5+ you get a 4+ FNP. That's a 16% increase in durability.

But what about when we have a 4+ armor save that isn't negated? Well then we save 75% of the wounds with a 4+/4+ and only 66% of the wounds with a 4+/5+. So that's a difference of only 9% (really 8.3%). What if we have a 2+ armor save? Then the difference between 2+/4+ and 2+/5+ is even smaller (91.6% vs 88.8), so 3% more wounds are saved. Roughly.

Is somewhere between a 3 and a 16 % durability increase really worth the loss of obsec? Sure, you can't take 18 wraiths in a normal CAD. But I think that most top tier lists will do the math and take Obsec one way or another

luke1705 wrote:


But what about when we have a 4+ armor save that isn't negated? Well then we save 75% of the wounds with a 4+/4+ and only 66% of the wounds with a 4+/5+. So that's a difference of only 9% (really 8.3%). What if we have a 2+ armor save? Then the difference between 2+/4+ and 2+/5+ is even smaller (91.6% vs 88.8), so 3% more wounds are saved. Roughly.

Is somewhere between a 3 and a 16 % durability increase really worth the loss of obsec? Sure, you can't take 18 wraiths in a normal CAD. But I think that most top tier lists will do the math and take Obsec one way or another

Actually, you're looking at it wrong. A move from RP5+ to RP4+ gives you a constant benefit, regardless of your save.

A 2+/5+ will fail ~11% of its saves. A 2+/4+ will fail 8.3% of its saves. That's a 33% improvement. An attack that would kill 4 guys now kills 3.

Compare to a warrior: 4+/5+ fails 33% of its saves. 4+/4+ fails 25%. That's a 33% improvement again. An attack that would kill 4 guys now kills 3.

Had a game recently against triple harvest decurion vs draigostar. All 3 spyders were dead top of turn 2 and thats forgetting they didnt start with RP. No ranged presence to speak of in the army outside of compulsory and some night scythes was IMO a big factor. Game ended bottom of t6 final result draigo 15 harvest 6.

dominuschao wrote:
Had a game recently against triple harvest decurion vs draigostar. All 3 spyders were dead top of turn 2 and thats forgetting they didnt start with RP. No ranged presence to speak of in the army outside of compulsory and some night scythes was IMO a big factor. Game ended bottom of t6 final result draigo 15 harvest 6.

How did drago star manage 3 dead spyders?

did the necron player just force feed em in or something? or where they all clumped together for a massive multi charge?