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2015/02/05 16:12:48
Subject: Re:Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
Interesting that GF9 launched the Homelands board game website today, for release this month? http://homeland.gf9games.com/
I have a horse in this race, so I've been following this Dust Kickstarter news a bit. I wonder if allocating resources towards pushing this game out in order to secure cash has had an effect? I know I've been looking forward to this game as a gateway for my wife
"Orkses never lost a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fighting so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!"
I dig how in a setting where giant, muscled fungus men ride Mad Max cars and use their own teeth as currency, the concept of little engineering dudes with beards was considered a step too far down the aisle of silliness.
ADB
2015/02/05 16:17:27
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
Duncan_Idaho wrote: I will definitly not write more about the topic since everything the public needs to know right now was in my last post.
As a freelancer for many companies I am involved with most of them so I will abstain from taking sides with any company. But be assured that I know quite well what is going.
Also there will not be a lot about it on the internet cause any company with brains does not keep such things in public view. Business stuff ist best kept away from the internet cause there are to many wannabe-experts that interpret anything the way it pleases them.
And actually I don´t need to guess or search for stuff on the internet cause I get my info most of the times first hand. And those who know me longer on Dakka do know quite well that most of the times I am spot on.
And maybe there has been a mediation attempt, but it is not unusual that several mediations are needed to solve an issue. Even when lawyers are already involved. And for the time being the best thing to do is let the mediator and lawyers do their work and keep all others from assuming things. I wish DS would more closly follow this quite normal path, but honestly that has never been their strength and cost them quite some goodwill.
DS and other distributors: The distributor for the German market supported DS long after FFG and DS parted ways, but suddenly the KS showed up and DS more or less circumvented them on the German market. That was reason for the distributor to finally part ways with them, too.
I do like DS but they have a nasty habit of punching partners on the nose for no apparent reason and this hurts them in the gaming business.
I gather the way you've been talking here and elsewhere on the internet (such as the facebook group) that you no longer do work for DUST. Did you get let go, get replaced, or leave the gig and have a bit of resentment? You've said very little about actual details, but a lot about how you want us to believe you know a lot, which makes me trust you less. I could very well be wrong, but I doubt that a freelance German translator is involved in higher-level business matters, so I assume your info isn't much more than industry gossip, not first-hand, just like most others.
But it's ok to trust paolo because he is in no way biased at all
Your last point is especially laughable and comical, because not only the 7th ed Valkyrie shown dumber things (like being able to throw the troopers without parachutes out of its hatches, no harm done) - Irbis
2015/02/05 16:32:23
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
Duncan_Idaho wrote: I will definitly not write more about the topic since everything the public needs to know right now was in my last post.
As a freelancer for many companies I am involved with most of them so I will abstain from taking sides with any company. But be assured that I know quite well what is going.
Also there will not be a lot about it on the internet cause any company with brains does not keep such things in public view. Business stuff ist best kept away from the internet cause there are to many wannabe-experts that interpret anything the way it pleases them.
And actually I don´t need to guess or search for stuff on the internet cause I get my info most of the times first hand. And those who know me longer on Dakka do know quite well that most of the times I am spot on.
And maybe there has been a mediation attempt, but it is not unusual that several mediations are needed to solve an issue. Even when lawyers are already involved. And for the time being the best thing to do is let the mediator and lawyers do their work and keep all others from assuming things. I wish DS would more closly follow this quite normal path, but honestly that has never been their strength and cost them quite some goodwill.
DS and other distributors: The distributor for the German market supported DS long after FFG and DS parted ways, but suddenly the KS showed up and DS more or less circumvented them on the German market. That was reason for the distributor to finally part ways with them, too.
I do like DS but they have a nasty habit of punching partners on the nose for no apparent reason and this hurts them in the gaming business.
I gather the way you've been talking here and elsewhere on the internet (such as the facebook group) that you no longer do work for DUST. Did you get let go, get replaced, or leave the gig and have a bit of resentment? You've said very little about actual details, but a lot about how you want us to believe you know a lot, which makes me trust you less. I could very well be wrong, but I doubt that a freelance German translator is involved in higher-level business matters, so I assume your info isn't much more than industry gossip, not first-hand, just like most others.
But it's ok to trust paolo because he is in no way biased at all
Nope, never said that. It's important to bring all evidence together to help understand what's going on. I expect that if I were to sit down and chat with either Paolo or a higher-up at Battlefront I would get a very biased point of view. Supposed "insider" information often shares that same biased-ness, especially when things get personal. So you try and filter that info to pull out as much objective evidence as you can and piece things together.
2015/02/05 17:33:29
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
Twelvecarpileup wrote: I went in on this with a friend... paid on Friday... two hours before all this stuff went down. Damn't.
If you just paid right now, the funds are still in their account. Get your money back immediately whether through paypal or your credit card.
This.
Initiate Chargeback / Dispute *IMMEDIATELY*.
Do not wait a minute. DO IT NOW!
The project is clearly fethed, so getting as much out, as quickly as possible, should be your top priority. There will likely be a run on BF's account, and you don't want to be the last guy in line, trying to squeeze pennies out of an empty wallet.
Paid with a debit credit card. Can't do a charge back in the same way as a regular credit card/paypal.
Interestingly, they did send an invoice, and got a shipping confirmation. I mean it's two items for a total of 8 minis... but at least it's something? Really surprised to see stuff still shipping, especially 5 days after a ll this dropped.
2015/02/05 17:43:33
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
If you read the kickstarter comments, folks are getting small partial orders with varying levels of stuff listed as out of stock (yet still available for sale on their site direct). Did the invoice state exactly what will be shipped and/or what wasn't or was it an invoice just for the order itself?
2015/02/05 18:11:11
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
carboncopy wrote: It's important to bring all evidence together to help understand what's going on.
But this is KS! That never happens!
DI said he was a freelancer. That means he's hired for the duration of a project and no longer works for the company when the project is over. That's it. He's not "let go, get replaced, or leave the gig and have a bit of resentment".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/05 18:11:35
My major beef in all this is the lack of sincerity and accountability from Battlefront. They have collected monies and now are failing to give an account of what those monies were spent on. While not a part of the past Kickstarter terms of use, it is part of the current terms for Kickstarter project creators to give an accounting if their project fails to deliver. By any measure it is indisputable that items shipped to some in the so called "Wave 1" are still outstanding to some backers, myself included.
warboss wrote: If you read the kickstarter comments, folks are getting small partial orders with varying levels of stuff listed as out of stock (yet still available for sale on their site direct). Did the invoice state exactly what will be shipped and/or what wasn't or was it an invoice just for the order itself?
The invoices show what shipped and lists the rest of the outstanding items as "Back ordered". This is appears disingenuous because we see pictures of Dust Studios items being produced, and have complaints of lack of orders from BF. How can it be back ordered when monies are being held due to a contract dispute?!? Seems to me if Battlefront was actually ordering, there would be invoices or POs between the two. The items shipped in this last go round were card packs... items that the Kicstarter promised backers but until now never delivered, while they showed up in retail outlets and web discounters in 2014.
2015/02/05 19:37:34
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
carboncopy wrote: It's important to bring all evidence together to help understand what's going on.
But this is KS! That never happens!
DI said he was a freelancer. That means he's hired for the duration of a project and no longer works for the company when the project is over. That's it. He's not "let go, get replaced, or leave the gig and have a bit of resentment".
I have no idea about André's situation, but as a freelancer you are generally looking for repeat business, and businesses like to reuse freelancers for future projects, because it cuts down on time and cost to find new ones. So if I were looking for repeat business from my clients I wouldn't get into squabbles on the internet saying negative things about my client (professionally I'd stay out of all type conversations related to any clients or potential clients because it could impact future work). So I assume André has written off any future work from DS and am wondering what the story is behind that to assess how much of what he's saying comes from some kind of resentment.
2015/02/05 20:18:52
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
I have no idea about André's situation, but as a freelancer you are generally looking for repeat business, and businesses like to reuse freelancers for future projects, because it cuts down on time and cost to find new ones. So if I were looking for repeat business from my clients I wouldn't get into squabbles on the internet saying negative things about my client (professionally I'd stay out of all type conversations related to any clients or potential clients because it could impact future work). So I assume André has written off any future work from DS and am wondering what the story is behind that to assess how much of what he's saying comes from some kind of resentment.
It's likely he formed his opinion of the company from conversations with FFG staff, which is where his information likely comes from. If I was told about a company doing things I didn't like, I wouldn't care about alienating them, especially if my actual clients held a similarly low opinion of said company. I'm not saying that this is the truth of this particular situation, as only DI can answer that part, but putting myself in another's shoes I'd not be so eager for work that I'd work with a company that is going to make my life difficult; there's a cost in dealing with unpleasant people that can't always be measured in dollars.
warboss wrote: (yet still available for sale on their site direct)
It's worth noting that if you're referring to Battlefront, "available to order from their site" means jack-all. You can place an order, then see it be placed on back order and then months later when the production run is completed they'll dispatch it. Heck, I ordered a dice tin and token set during their sale of those things because they were discontinuing them to never be sold again. Order placed the day the sale was active (which was actually early) and the tin was nearly immediately removed from the order because in reality I believe it'd been out of stock for years, at least in the US. It took them I think about a week in to remove things that they didn't actually have (though obviously it's somewhat unknowable what was never there and what had legitimately sold out in the interim).
So logistically, BF is way behind the times when it comes to the web and inventory, and I'd take the "available for sale" with more salt than this planet likely has on it if the store is BF. If you're referring to some other store then please disregard with my apologies.
2015/02/05 21:14:47
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
Of course I do look for repeat business, but I also care for the reputation of my clients. And if they are endangering it by their very own actions I will tell them.
Besides, all I posted here is public domain. i.e. no NDA or similar thing is covering it and well known to people in the business. A lot of reserach is the foundation of my work and also goes into my business decissions.
Actually what I wrote everybody with business-experience could easily deduct for himself already from the stuff at hand.
André Winter L'Art Noir - Game Design and Translation Studio
2015/02/06 00:20:44
Subject: Re:Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
MZ Looks like the folks over at Battlefraud put up 'Update 96' on their front page.
Like · · Share
CH The Battleboyz™ are in full effect on Dakka Dakka:
"1. BF has the cash, but refuses to honor the contract they signed....See More
17 hrs · Edited · Like · 1
MZ Is that a cut and paste from Dakka Dakka? I never go there.
17 hrs · Like
CH yes
17 hrs · Like
MZ So much hyperbole, I'm not sure where to start.
17 hrs · Like
CH People have responded setting some things straight. I'm not a member, but i'm tempted to join just to argue with him about the SKU changeover.
17 hrs · Like · 1
RP They forgot to mention that BF shipped to retailers b4 actual backers of the KS and haven't sent a PO to DS.
17 hrs · Like · 4
SK And how they got $220,000 in the hole with DS in the first place..........They haven't explained that
17 hrs · Like · 1
JM Dakka Dakka, you will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy....
17 hrs · Like · 8
MJAM J...I thought that was Bell of Lost Souls
17 hrs · Like · 1
JM Dakka puts BoLS to shame
17 hrs · Like · 2
MZ Fukka Fukka
17 hrs · Like · 2
RI Well it is a 40K board not really a table top board in general. What would you expect.
17 hrs · Like · 1
MJAM Lets show them Dakka Dakka boys how really Wacko we are and flood their pages!
17 hrs · Like · 2
MZ And...the post was made by none other than APH. I guess he chose his side. Understandable, but disappointing. He seemed like one of the more squared away folks.
17 hrs · Like
RI Hmmmmm... yeah no how about you use your time for something constructive M
17 hrs · Like · 1
RI Nah he won't gak where he eats I don't blame him for that.
17 hrs · Like
MJAM You know I was kidding R!
17 hrs · Like
MJAM He runs the Dust Website. I wonder how long it will be, before he shuts it down
17 hrs · Like
RI He is a BF employee. In fact someone probably said,"Hey your the PR guy get your ass out there and do some PR."
17 hrs · Edited · Like · 2
MZ I suspect that maybe it. But...the posts are still flying in the forum.
17 hrs · Like
SK Battlefront makes so much more than books and miniatures these days. They are now renowned purveyors of excuses and lies.
17 hrs · Like · 6
RI Game are suppose to make you think and use your mind. I don't think they are intended to make me think or use my mind the way I have been lately however...
17 hrs · Edited · Like · 5
SK And their post, still doesn't clarify if they have the money.
17 hrs · Like
DB Hey JMc i am a dust fan and on DakkaDakka, Damn that free speech ey!
17 hrs · Like
MJAM I thought those gorillas were supposed to have buzzsaws for hands!
17 hrs · Like
SK We're all guilty then. We paid money for services, and we all got screwed.
17 hrs · Like · 2
MZ So...anyone see that Dust thing happening? I hear it's a hoot.
6 hrs · Edited · Like · 1
CStC There is more truth to that posting above on Dakka that you may know...that is why i have been as silent lately.
4 hrs · Like
CH Please elaborate
3 hrs · Like
KS Post the link ...please..thank you
3 hrs · Edited · Like · 1
GvR can anyone post evidence to link Duncan_Idaho from Dakka to AH?
the BF statement on their Dust page is the same as the statement up on the KS....See More
Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront? - Forum - DakkaDakka
BY DAKKADAKKA.COM
1 hr · Like
MZ I'm not wading through all that. For some reason, I think Duncan_Idaho was with FFG.
1 hr · Edited · Like
MZ CStC...what did you mean with your post?
1 hr · Like · 1
TS Haven't read the whole thing yet, but I wonder if the guy who ordered/ pledged $1400 worth of product and was expecting all of it to arrive Feb 3rd got it (I'm guessing no)?
1 hr · Edited · Like
JMc Duncan Idaho is AW here, iirc 1 hr · Like · 2
GvR ah so it was only slander / disingenuous noise intended to continue to nudge the drama along?
1 hr · Like · 1
MZ Ahhh...that's right. I knew there was a connection to someone we knew. I blocked the little scamp about a year ago. I haven't been privy to his blatherings.
1 hr · Edited · Like
TS Troll Level: A
1 hr · Like · 3
TS A didn't back the KS. I've asked him point blank multiple times if he's a backer. Always gives me a "that doesnt matter". He also likes to tell people he knows more than they do because "his name has appeared in gaming rulebooks".
1 hr · Like · 1
KSTS were did you read something about $1400
1 hr · Like
TS I believe page 3 of that dakka thread.
1 hr · Like
TS I feel bad if the guys expecting his stuff.
1 hr · Like
KS Thanks found it ...I thought someone posted my email sent to BF.
1 hr · Like · 1
MZ Someone quoted me too.
1 hr · Like · 1
MM This guy with the 1400$ order is BF troll if you ask me.
54 mins · Like
MZ Looks like the folks over at Battlefraud put up 'Update 96' on their front page. Like · · Share
CH The Battleboyz™ are in full effect on Dakka Dakka:
"1. BF has the cash, but refuses to honor the contract they signed....See More 17 hrs · Edited · Like · 1
MZ Is that a cut and paste from Dakka Dakka? I never go there. 17 hrs · Like
CH yes 17 hrs · Like
MZ So much hyperbole, I'm not sure where to start. 17 hrs · Like
CH People have responded setting some things straight. I'm not a member, but i'm tempted to join just to argue with him about the SKU changeover. 17 hrs · Like · 1
RP They forgot to mention that BF shipped to retailers b4 actual backers of the KS and haven't sent a PO to DS. 17 hrs · Like · 4
SK And how they got $220,000 in the hole with DS in the first place..........They haven't explained that 17 hrs · Like · 1
JM Dakka Dakka, you will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.... 17 hrs · Like · 8
MJAM J...I thought that was Bell of Lost Souls 17 hrs · Like · 1
JM Dakka puts BoLS to shame 17 hrs · Like · 2
MZ Fukka Fukka 17 hrs · Like · 2
RI Well it is a 40K board not really a table top board in general. What would you expect. 17 hrs · Like · 1
MJAM Lets show them Dakka Dakka boys how really Wacko we are and flood their pages! 17 hrs · Like · 2
MZ And...the post was made by none other than APH. I guess he chose his side. Understandable, but disappointing. He seemed like one of the more squared away folks. 17 hrs · Like
RI Hmmmmm... yeah no how about you use your time for something constructive M 17 hrs · Like · 1
RI Nah he won't gak where he eats I don't blame him for that. 17 hrs · Like
MJAM You know I was kidding R! 17 hrs · Like
MJAM He runs the Dust Website. I wonder how long it will be, before he shuts it down 17 hrs · Like
RI He is a BF employee. In fact someone probably said,"Hey your the PR guy get your ass out there and do some PR." 17 hrs · Edited · Like · 2
MZ I suspect that maybe it. But...the posts are still flying in the forum. 17 hrs · Like
SK Battlefront makes so much more than books and miniatures these days. They are now renowned purveyors of excuses and lies. 17 hrs · Like · 6
RI Game are suppose to make you think and use your mind. I don't think they are intended to make me think or use my mind the way I have been lately however... 17 hrs · Edited · Like · 5
SK And their post, still doesn't clarify if they have the money. 17 hrs · Like
DB Hey JMc i am a dust fan and on DakkaDakka, Damn that free speech ey! 17 hrs · Like
MJAM I thought those gorillas were supposed to have buzzsaws for hands! 17 hrs · Like
SK We're all guilty then. We paid money for services, and we all got screwed. 17 hrs · Like · 2
MZ So...anyone see that Dust thing happening? I hear it's a hoot. 6 hrs · Edited · Like · 1
CStC There is more truth to that posting above on Dakka that you may know...that is why i have been as silent lately. 4 hrs · Like
CH Please elaborate 3 hrs · Like
KS Post the link ...please..thank you 3 hrs · Edited · Like · 1
GvR can anyone post evidence to link Duncan_Idaho from Dakka to AH?
the BF statement on their Dust page is the same as the statement up on the KS....See More Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront? - Forum - DakkaDakka BY DAKKADAKKA.COM 1 hr · Like
MZ I'm not wading through all that. For some reason, I think Duncan_Idaho was with FFG. 1 hr · Edited · Like
MZ CStC...what did you mean with your post? 1 hr · Like · 1
TS Haven't read the whole thing yet, but I wonder if the guy who ordered/ pledged $1400 worth of product and was expecting all of it to arrive Feb 3rd got it (I'm guessing no)? 1 hr · Edited · Like
JMc Duncan Idaho is AW here, iirc 1 hr · Like · 2
GvR ah so it was only slander / disingenuous noise intended to continue to nudge the drama along? 1 hr · Like · 1
MZ Ahhh...that's right. I knew there was a connection to someone we knew. I blocked the little scamp about a year ago. I haven't been privy to his blatherings. 1 hr · Edited · Like
TS Troll Level: A 1 hr · Like · 3
TS A didn't back the KS. I've asked him point blank multiple times if he's a backer. Always gives me a "that doesnt matter". He also likes to tell people he knows more than they do because "his name has appeared in gaming rulebooks". 1 hr · Like · 1
KSTS were did you read something about $1400 1 hr · Like
TS I believe page 3 of that dakka thread. 1 hr · Like
TS I feel bad if the guys expecting his stuff. 1 hr · Like
KS Thanks found it ...I thought someone posted my email sent to BF. 1 hr · Like · 1
MZ Someone quoted me too. 1 hr · Like · 1
MM This guy with the 1400$ order is BF troll if you ask me. 54 mins · Like
That post has been deleted now. I'd sure like to know who APH (Andrew Paul Haught I suppose) is in this thread here on Dakka, so we can identify the sock puppet. Does anyone know? Is it Moopy? Someone accused him of being a sock puppet earlier in the thread.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/06 04:28:00
2015/02/06 06:40:00
Subject: Re:Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
That post has been deleted now. I'd sure like to know who APH (Andrew Paul Haught I suppose) is in this thread here on Dakka, so we can identify the sock puppet. Does anyone know? Is it Moopy? Someone accused him of being a sock puppet earlier in the thread.
The term was "apologist", and no I'm not him. I'm a backer on Kickstarter (same handle on KS). You can always ask the people who traded with me here on Dakka if that's my name.
Lets not start a witch hunt. Thanks.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/06 07:36:14
2015/02/06 07:41:10
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
That post has been deleted now. I'd sure like to know who APH (Andrew Paul Haught I suppose) is in this thread here on Dakka, so we can identify the sock puppet. Does anyone know? Is it Moopy? Someone accused him of being a sock puppet earlier in the thread.
The term was "apologist", and no I'm not him. I'm a backer on Kickstarter (same handle on KS). You can always ask the people who traded with me here on Dakka if that's my name.
Lets not start a witch hunt. Thanks.
Sorry for putting your name out there.
For what it's worth, JohnHwangDD called you an apologist. Hekal Xul called someone a sock puppet - though it's not clear whom. One of the guys in the thread copied from Facebook (MZ - who if he's who I think he is is a jump-to-conclusions raving donkey-cave who has me blocked anyway) said that APH was posting in Dakka. I'd sure like to know who he thinks is APH although truth be told, I haven't seen anyone in this thread acting much like a sock puppet.
2015/02/06 08:45:45
Subject: Re:Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
Don't really think there's any need or point to pursuing this line of investigation.
Really doesn't help just throwing names out there.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2015/02/06 16:27:39
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
I've not got a horse in this race, but BoW were talking about this this morning, who do have a relationship with both dust and battlefront.
The vibe I got from them was basically both sides are being dumb. So its probably not the case of one side being right, the other being wrong. But both of them have likely screwed up various things.
2015/02/08 02:55:47
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
New update on Kickstarter. It basically says to calm the hells down, they're getting it sorted.
So much nerd wrath "I backed a kickstarter knowing their timelines only slightly more solid than Valve release schedules, and now I want my stuff right now!"
But it sounds like there are those who got the wrong pieces due to miscommunications between the two companies. Those guys have legit complaints.
Edit: correction: The update was yesterday. that still new?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/08 02:59:18
No need to panic, guys. The kickstarter update said everything is fine.
You know... I hope the entire company vanishes to a no-extradition country and you guys never get an update.
That's not going to happen of course, because Battlefront is a legit company, unlike Dust studios.
Yeah, if backers can't appreciate that this whole project is barely worth the mighty Battlefronts attention, and that any update at all should be accepted at face value with unquestioning trust, then you don't deserve to have been allowed to back this project.
2015/02/08 09:22:31
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
There might not be one party at fault, even if legal-wise there has to be one party at fault.
The fact of the matter is, businesses are people. A lot of my experiences lately has made me realize that more than anything, people make all sorts of personal decisions and mistakes while doing business. At this scale, most businesses are more people than corporate machines.
So this could be a huge misunderstanding that just needs to play out through whatever arbitration they can get.
Even if a contract was signed, there may have been drastically different expectations in mind while signing it. I'm willing to give both sides the benefit of the doubt while this plays out.
3500pts
2500pts
2000pts 
