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 jasper76 wrote:
Mindshackle got nerfed to extinction, IMO.

Fear on 3D6 is pretty darn helpful against super units that normally can outclass the necrons. Necron Warriors and Immortals are ADEQUATE combatants but you cant say much more about them. making them relentless is pretty awesome though and if they can get the jump on a unit, it can be a painful experience. The Mindshackle scarabs really help in those fights where the tables are pretty much against them but at least with Fear, the enemy will not be striking nearly so well and it allows the Warriors or Immortals to hang in there until the Cavalry can do their thing instead of getting rejected and outclassed immediately.

So there's value there.

 Jancoran wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
Mindshackle got nerfed to extinction, IMO.

Fear on 3D6 is pretty darn helpful against super units that normally can outclass the necrons. Necron Warriors and Immortals are ADEQUATE combatants but you cant say much more about them. making them relentless is pretty awesome though and if they can get the jump on a unit, it can be a painful experience. The Mindshackle scarabs really help in those fights where the tables are pretty much against them but at least with Fear, the enemy will not be striking nearly so well and it allows the Warriors or Immortals to hang in there until the Cavalry can do their thing instead of getting rejected and outclassed immediately.

So there's value there.

Except it only works in challenges and half the good assault units in this game are fearless or ATSKNF. I'm not worried about losing Mind Shackle Scarabs, but they are a waste of points now, imo.

Love it 100%

 docdoom77 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
Mindshackle got nerfed to extinction, IMO.

Fear on 3D6 is pretty darn helpful against super units that normally can outclass the necrons. Necron Warriors and Immortals are ADEQUATE combatants but you cant say much more about them. making them relentless is pretty awesome though and if they can get the jump on a unit, it can be a painful experience. The Mindshackle scarabs really help in those fights where the tables are pretty much against them but at least with Fear, the enemy will not be striking nearly so well and it allows the Warriors or Immortals to hang in there until the Cavalry can do their thing instead of getting rejected and outclassed immediately.

So there's value there.

Except it only works in challenges and half the good assault units in this game are fearless or ATSKNF. I'm not worried about losing Mind Shackle Scarabs, but they are a waste of points now, imo.

You say "only" as if challenges don't happen with those that are not fearless!

In any event, I'm definitely not saying it needs to be a priority buy. I think I can live without them as well. But that wasn't really the discussion I was having. I was referring to the fact that the term Nerf'd is just way too misused to be of any value. Mindshackles are just one of a hundred examples.

I think in the context of what Necrons already do, which is go on init 2, you really need to value things that can even that playing field. because Init 2 on MOST of the characters means if you've not even TRIED to cause some kind of slow down in the enemies assault, you COULD quickly find yourself with one less character. And it matters, especially in Emperors Will missions but also on some Maelstrom cards and just in the general sense.

NOT taking them feels a bit like conceding their life. Haemonculi aren't fearless, and he's a dude you WANT to fear you, for example. Same for the Imperial Guard who can throw power axe's endlessly at you. And so on.

Anybody tried the new Doomsday Ark yet?

S10 instead of S9 is huge, as this means you can insta-kill T5 now.

Secondary fire is also better now, instead of a stupid flamer it is a S8 AP3 blast - I know 170 points for that is a waste, but say youre forced to reposition, then at least you can still threaten to insta-kill T4 3+ or worse units if they fail but one cover or inv. save.

Primary Weapon on the main firing mode means S10 AP1 and 2D6 armor pen picking the highest; with large blast and BS4 you'll rarely completely scatter off tanks and are almost guaranteed a pen where the AP1 comes in very handy.

 Jancoran wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
Mindshackle got nerfed to extinction, IMO.

Fear on 3D6 is pretty darn helpful against super units that normally can outclass the necrons. Necron Warriors and Immortals are ADEQUATE combatants but you cant say much more about them. making them relentless is pretty awesome though and if they can get the jump on a unit, it can be a painful experience. The Mindshackle scarabs really help in those fights where the tables are pretty much against them but at least with Fear, the enemy will not be striking nearly so well and it allows the Warriors or Immortals to hang in there until the Cavalry can do their thing instead of getting rejected and outclassed immediately.

So there's value there.

Except it only works in challenges and half the good assault units in this game are fearless or ATSKNF. I'm not worried about losing Mind Shackle Scarabs, but they are a waste of points now, imo.

You say "only" as if challenges don't happen with those that are not fearless!

In any event, I'm definitely not saying it needs to be a priority buy. I think I can live without them as well. But that wasn't really the discussion I was having. I was referring to the fact that the term Nerf'd is just way too misused to be of any value. Mindshackles are just one of a hundred examples.

I think in the context of what Necrons already do, which is go on init 2, you really need to value things that can even that playing field. because Init 2 on MOST of the characters means if you've not even TRIED to cause some kind of slow down in the enemies assault, you COULD quickly find yourself with one less character. And it matters, especially in Emperors Will missions but also on some Maelstrom cards and just in the general sense.

NOT taking them feels a bit like conceding their life. Haemonculi aren't fearless, and he's a dude you WANT to fear you, for example. Same for the Imperial Guard who can throw power axe's endlessly at you. And so on.

To each their own. I'll never shell out 10 points for that thing. Far too situational. I'd rather have the gauntlet of fire if I have an extra 10 points.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Anybody tried the new Doomsday Ark yet?

S10 instead of S9 is huge, as this means you can insta-kill T5 now.

Secondary fire is also better now, instead of a stupid flamer it is a S8 AP3 blast - I know 170 points for that is a waste, but say youre forced to reposition, then at least you can still threaten to insta-kill T4 3+ or worse units if they fail but one cover or inv. save.

Primary Weapon on the main firing mode means S10 AP1 and 2D6 armor pen picking the highest; with large blast and BS4 you'll rarely completely scatter off tanks and are almost guaranteed a pen where the AP1 comes in very handy.

My buddy used one against me yesterday....it one-shotted an AV14 Vengence Battery from across the board on turn 2. The rest of his shots went wide before I blew it up with a Hunter missile, but I have to say, S10, AP1 large blast at 72' range is pretty dang effective, even at 170 points.

Reanimation Protocols is much more potent than it used to be. He only took a standard CAD and didn't use any crypteks (didn't have the points for it), but even at 5+, it saved alot of models. Destroyers are particularly obnoxious to get rid of, and being able to take a unit of Heavy Destroyers makes their anti-armour capabilities even more deadly. I wasn't impressed with the C'Tan's random power (he rarely got an appropriate power for the target), but Nightbringer's combat ability should not be overlooked. Had my buddy been more aggressive with the C'Tan as an assault monster, he probably would have beat me with ease, because I had nothing that could really stand up to it in assault.

Yeah Destroyers are aces.

Destroyers with 2 wounds is pretty fun. I like that they are tough now

Destroyers are meh. Pay 10 more points and you can get Heavy Destroyers who can feth up enemy tanks and still have half as much firepower as normal destroyers against MEQ with the added bonus of ignoring TEQ armor as well.

3 S9 Ap2 shots for 150 points might remind you of a Predator Annihilator with 12" less range and no twin-link on one of the weapons, which is a meh choice in the SM army to begin with, but in this case those 3 S9 AP2 shots can move and shoot at full BS, have a 360° fire arc, re-roll 1s to hit, regain lost wounds on a 5+ (handy if you have 2 wounds each), can jump-shoot-jump, and are comprised of a unit that has T5, 3+ saves and 6 wounds.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 BlackArmour wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:
Gotta be a 100% honest here - When I hear that a codex is almost univeraslly good from most people, I fear that the codex in question is too powerful, whereas, when the community is either lukewarm or simply disliking a new book, I believe it must be a great book, because many people are angry that their usual, powerful cheese-lists are invalidated. Call me a cynic and I wouldn't stop you.

I guess we'll see. Games weren't won on Sempiternal Weave alone.

This is generally true.....

The fact that you're getting a ton of smiles from Necron players should in fact worry everyone.

I'm thinking this book just broke the 7th edition "balance" trend and is the first in 7th with some codex creep ( Yes even with the nerfs).

guess we will see what the next codex brings.

Remove the decurian formations and they are much more in line with the other 7th edition books, probably still top tier but not horrible out of sync. With the decurian detachment and formations, they are likely broken. Time will tell, I get to play my first game against new necrons tomorrow.

lol no.....no they're not. The 7th codexs got balance and a few fun formations that not too many look even remotely broken, strong but not broken. The Necrons got unneeded buffs to units that were already good. a MASSIVE Buff to a function (RP) that was already good and useful and OH YES fluffy (Why the hell was this changed again?). I'm sorry an army that can have a 4+ FNP that can be used against Instant death with possible re-rolls of 1 and possible total re-roll to RP saves 1 time a game, makes a unit just insanely survivable. If SM got this kinda buff to FNP and easy access to it for their entire army this site would break down from the crying.

Also Saying that if you don't use the rules provided to you then they aren't that strong is sorta laughable , since you know everyone will be doing it.

this book needed some nerfs to the insanely good things (Trans Ctan, MSS) and buffs to units that were laughably bad ( Flayed ones, tomb blades, lynch guard etc.) a re-balancing just like the other 7th codexs. what it didn't need was buffs to every thing that was already good. (Yes I'm aware it got some nerfs to the insane things but its buffs out weight those nerfs)

This book is Eldar levels of power on its own and thats pretty sad considering it was looking like GW was finally getting rid of this kinda power creep. (looking sooooo hard at you wraiths)

also as a final point the wraith nonsense just proves how GW doesnt properly know how to point cost rules. That tiny raise in points for what it got in return it just stupid.

I'm hearing the same people who thought Necrons were broken good before are still complaining that Necrons are broken good now. Even though everything that was above average good before was nerfed.

5+/4+ RP is sweet, but you handle it the same way Xeno players face Space marines 2+/5++ Terminators, 3+/3++ Stormshields, 2+ Centurions, etc... with volumes of fire.

Just like you handle Death Company.
Just like you handle Blood Angels with a Sanguinary Priest.
Just like you handle Space Marines with an Apothacary.
Just like you handle Orks with a Painboy

Those seem like false equivalences.

All those units are either specific units or units with an attached IC.

Having FNP+1 on *every* unit in an army is a different matter.

 Jancoran wrote:
Destroyers with 2 wounds is pretty fun. I like that they are tough now

I'm liking this new Detsoyer Cult too. Looks friggin brutal. Only S10 will ID them to force the negative RP modifier, so they are so friggin durable now. Throw that special formation rule in the mix on a bunch of S5 AP3 Gauss and S9 AP2 Gauss which are already rerolling 1s to hit, and the 24" stuff can pop into and out of range with jetpacks. Seems pretty vicious to me. Decurion Reclamation Legion-Warrior Spam and Destroyer Cult is where I'm headed for a core army with this codex for the first game.

This codex is a big lift for those of us that like to play Warrior Spam. 4+/5++/4+++(with plenty of reroll shennigans) 20 Warrior blobs? Yes please!

 adamsouza wrote:
I'm hearing the same people who thought Necrons were broken good before are still complaining that Necrons are broken good now. Even though everything that was above average good before was nerfed.

5+/4+ RP is sweet, but you handle it the same way Xeno players face Space marines 2+/5++ Terminators, 3+/3++ Stormshields, 2+ Centurions, etc... with volumes of fire.

Just like you handle Death Company.
Just like you handle Blood Angels with a Sanguinary Priest.
Just like you handle Space Marines with an Apothacary.
Just like you handle Orks with a Painboy

That's great news for Tau, IG, and Green Tide. Not entirely sure my daemons or CSM are going to enjoy getting rolled through by underpriced Wraiths every game.

My feelings are about the new codex? If you're in the San Jose Ca area and want my Necrons, I'll sell my approximately 5000 points worth to you. Of course that was opinion before the codex dropped and didn't change with the new book.

 BlackArmour wrote:

Also Saying that if you don't use the rules provided to you then they aren't that strong is sorta laughable , since you know everyone will be doing it.

Sort of like how every Imperial player runs a Frankenstein army with Knights and Inquisitors stuffed into it regardless of the faction?

 BlackArmour wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 BlackArmour wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:
Gotta be a 100% honest here - When I hear that a codex is almost univeraslly good from most people, I fear that the codex in question is too powerful, whereas, when the community is either lukewarm or simply disliking a new book, I believe it must be a great book, because many people are angry that their usual, powerful cheese-lists are invalidated. Call me a cynic and I wouldn't stop you.

I guess we'll see. Games weren't won on Sempiternal Weave alone.

This is generally true.....

The fact that you're getting a ton of smiles from Necron players should in fact worry everyone.

I'm thinking this book just broke the 7th edition "balance" trend and is the first in 7th with some codex creep ( Yes even with the nerfs).

guess we will see what the next codex brings.

Remove the decurian formations and they are much more in line with the other 7th edition books, probably still top tier but not horrible out of sync. With the decurian detachment and formations, they are likely broken. Time will tell, I get to play my first game against new necrons tomorrow.

lol no.....no they're not. The 7th codexs got balance and a few fun formations that not too many look even remotely broken, strong but not broken. The Necrons got unneeded buffs to units that were already good. a MASSIVE Buff to a function (RP) that was already good and useful and OH YES fluffy (Why the hell was this changed again?). I'm sorry an army that can have a 4+ FNP that can be used against Instant death with possible re-rolls of 1 and possible total re-roll to RP saves 1 time a game, makes a unit just insanely survivable. If SM got this kinda buff to FNP and easy access to it for their entire army this site would break down from the crying.

Also Saying that if you don't use the rules provided to you then they aren't that strong is sorta laughable , since you know everyone will be doing it.

this book needed some nerfs to the insanely good things (Trans Ctan, MSS) and buffs to units that were laughably bad ( Flayed ones, tomb blades, lynch guard etc.) a re-balancing just like the other 7th codexs. what it didn't need was buffs to every thing that was already good. (Yes I'm aware it got some nerfs to the insane things but its buffs out weight those nerfs)

This book is Eldar levels of power on its own and thats pretty sad considering it was looking like GW was finally getting rid of this kinda power creep. (looking sooooo hard at you wraiths)

also as a final point the wraith nonsense just proves how GW doesnt properly know how to point cost rules. That tiny raise in points for what it got in return it just stupid.

I'm confused, you refute my claim that WITH the formations, the new Necrons are likely broken, but then go on an support the notion that Necrons might be broken....

Honestly, the blanket 4+ RP, which is then carried over to Canoptek units, is scary good. At 1500 points, a Decurian can have the reclamation legion and two Canoptek formations. That's an insanely hard army to counter for anybody at 1500 points, because its nigh invulnerable, is speedy enough to snag objectives every turn, and hits like a ton of bricks. The Decurian ramps up the arms race hard....which is likely GW's intent. My Crimson Fists are already visiting the lots and kicking the tires on some Imperial Knights, but my Chaos Daemons are likely just screwed :(

 Zathras wrote:
My feelings are about the new codex? If you're in the San Jose Ca area and want my Necrons, I'll sell my approximately 5000 points worth to you. Of course that was opinion before the codex dropped and didn't change with the new book.

So you have issues with the buffs to gak units and appropriate nerfs elsewhere. Got it.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Honestly, the blanket 4+ RP, which is then carried over to Canoptek units, is scary good. At 1500 points, a Decurian can have the reclamation legion and two Canoptek formations. That's an insanely hard army to counter for anybody at 1500 points, because its nigh invulnerable, is speedy enough to snag objectives every turn, and hits like a ton of bricks. The Decurian ramps up the arms race hard....which is likely GW's intent. My Crimson Fists are already visiting the lots and kicking the tires on some Imperial Knights, but my Chaos Daemons are likely just screwed :(

Sorry Miscommunication , my refute is that without the formations they are in line with other 7th codexs. which they are not even inline with them if you take out the formations ( which me and you agree send them way over the edge)

My proof is in other 7th codexs seeing debuffs to rules like Orks Mob rule or BA FNP bubble being reduced to on squad only and reduction on the number of guys you could bring that could hand it out. while RP got a Buff!?!? I can keep going on but its been said and everyone who has a 7th codex and is looking at the Necron one knows what I'm talking about.

Warriors cant be toughness 5 but wraiths can be toughness 5 with beast for 5ppm!?

I'm mad because every codex since eldar has been pretty dang balanced against one another , yet in one move the writer of this codex invalidated all of that. which mean we are back to square one again and like you said its an arms race again.

 BlackArmour wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Honestly, the blanket 4+ RP, which is then carried over to Canoptek units, is scary good. At 1500 points, a Decurian can have the reclamation legion and two Canoptek formations. That's an insanely hard army to counter for anybody at 1500 points, because its nigh invulnerable, is speedy enough to snag objectives every turn, and hits like a ton of bricks. The Decurian ramps up the arms race hard....which is likely GW's intent. My Crimson Fists are already visiting the lots and kicking the tires on some Imperial Knights, but my Chaos Daemons are likely just screwed :(

Sorry Miscommunication , my refute is that without the formations they are in line with other 7th codexs. which they are not even inline with them if you take out the formations ( which me and you agree send them way over the edge)
I'm mad because every codex since eldar has been pretty dang balanced against one another , yet in one move the writer of this codex invalidated all of that. which mean we are back to square one again and like you said its an arms race again.

I don't think so.

Take Space Wolves for instance, their best unit is TWC. What is Wraith compared to TWC ?

And Necrons have a lot more.


Lastly, quit pretending that Eldar was the only bad apple, that's just the kind of bs we've all heard far too much of.

Daemons are horrible, so is Tau, Eldar and Necrons which should have been nerfed (and I still hope they have been, time will tell)



I sure hope Necrons have indeed been nerfed and the rest of the codex updates will make Eldar, Daemons and Tau more internally and externally balanced

Has anyone else though of my Lychguard Deathstar Idea?

Orikan + Lord with Solar Staff/Res orb + Overlord with Voidreaper/res orb + 10 Sword and Board Lychguard?

3+/3++ rerolling 1s on saves, 4+ RP rerolling 1s, T5, drop them out a night scythe, pop the solar staff so their invisible. Go to town next turn.

Or use Warsythe Lychguard and bring a Cryptek with a Chronometron instead of the Lord.

Fun things to think about.

Lynchguard is too slow. Once they are deployed they are grounded.
I'd opt for Praetorians.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Lynchguard is too slow. Once they are deployed they are grounded.
I'd opt for Praetorians.

Or, night Scythe, with a VoD cryptek.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Lynchguard is too slow. Once they are deployed they are grounded.
I'd opt for Praetorians.

Or, night Scythe, with a VoD cryptek.

However, the NS might come in at turn two and so the Lynchguard can charge at round three, veil at round four, and the charge again at round five.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Lynchguard is too slow. Once they are deployed they are grounded.
I'd opt for Praetorians.

The problem there is, Praetorians can't really have a Cryptek or Lord join them so their durability suffers. Lychguard w/full complement of ICs with the solar staff in a Nightscythe shouldn't have any trouble reaching combat largely intact, and as long as its not against TEQ, they would likely win said combat.

Not that Praetorians aren't freakin' amazing in their own right, just not as durable.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Zathras wrote:
My feelings are about the new codex? If you're in the San Jose Ca area and want my Necrons, I'll sell my approximately 5000 points worth to you. Of course that was opinion before the codex dropped and didn't change with the new book.

So you have issues with the buffs to gak units and appropriate nerfs elsewhere. Got it.

And the survey says.....BZZZZZT...wrong. Nothing wrong with the new codex that I could see with the quick look I took. I haven't played 40k since the begining of 6th ed and the new codex will not change this. My issue is with GW and their business practices and my refusal to spend anymore money on their overpriced merchandise, not the new codex. It's also an offer to anyone that live in my area who might like to get a Necron army on the cheap and to get some cash for a new(er) car.

 jasper76 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Destroyers with 2 wounds is pretty fun. I like that they are tough now

I'm liking this new Detsoyer Cult too. Looks friggin brutal. Only S10 will ID them to force the negative RP modifier, so they are so friggin durable now. Throw that special formation rule in the mix on a bunch of S5 AP3 Gauss and S9 AP2 Gauss which are already rerolling 1s to hit, and the 24" stuff can pop into and out of range with jetpacks. Seems pretty vicious to me. Decurion Reclamation Legion-Warrior Spam and Destroyer Cult is where I'm headed for a core army with this codex for the first game.

This codex is a big lift for those of us that like to play Warrior Spam. 4+/5++/4+++(with plenty of reroll shennigans) 20 Warrior blobs? Yes please!

Dont even need the Decurion bonus. Just use the Cult on its own for that matter.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Has anyone else though of my Lychguard Deathstar Idea?

Orikan + Lord with Solar Staff/Res orb + Overlord with Voidreaper/res orb + 10 Sword and Board Lychguard?

3+/3++ rerolling 1s on saves, 4+ RP rerolling 1s, T5, drop them out a night scythe, pop the solar staff so their invisible. Go to town next turn.

Or use Warsythe Lychguard and bring a Cryptek with a Chronometron instead of the Lord.

Fun things to think about.

I saw the synergy of rerolling a 2+ armor save with Orikan

D-Lord w/ Warscythe, Phase Shifter, Shroud, and whatever else you want to flavor him with
Orikan
Lychgard with scythes

Throw em all in a Night Scythe and hope it hits the board. Otherwise, add a lord with Veil and Solar Staff and Deep Strike them where you want, when you want. Once they deploy, put the D-Lord in front or most likely spot where you will take fire from, Orikan in a safe spot, and enjoy your rerollable 2+ armor save and 4++ RP. If you have the points, give the D-Lord an orb if you think you're going to take a ton of heat. Such a beast assault unit.

Yeah, and slow, CC units need to be fast.