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Today is the day RAW died on YMDC. If this and other threads keep up, it'll be renamed HIWPI tomorrow.

We already had this discussion.. At least pretend to use the search function.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/633275.page

I think we're at the stage where we just agree to disagree. Yourself and Kriswall were staunch defenders of the other opinion in another thread I just discovered too so we'll just need to wait to see if the codex offers any clarification or if there is an FAQ.

I'm personally happy to let a Harlequin player use his Solitaire as a few of us have been arguing as I feel the rules are clear from my perspective and it seems to be a widespread view, but I'm happy to be proved wrong by GW.

I still think the new Harlies are awesome regardless! I'll personally be having a quick chat with any opponent about this before the game as I'm happy to play either way but still believe the kiss of death is rolled even when using the caress.

Ah well, good discussion peeps!

3 weapons:
-Harlequin's Caress
-Harlequin's Embrace
-Harlequin's Kiss

3 Special Rules:
-Caress of Death
-Embrace of Death
-Kiss of Death

Both Embrace and Kiss mention "when equipped" with the weapon, making it sound like only possession of the weapon is needed in order to use the rule.
Why would these be 3 different weapons then, and not equipment?
If you have all 3, can you just use the Caress and have ALL the other rules?

As Krisswall has adequately described, you only have Special Rules on weapons when you use the weapon.

 BlackTalos wrote:
3 weapons:
-Harlequin's Caress
-Harlequin's Embrace
-Harlequin's Kiss

3 Special Rules:
-Caress of Death
-Embrace of Death
-Kiss of Death

Both Embrace and Kiss mention "when equipped" with the weapon, making it sound like only possession of the weapon is needed in order to use the rule.
Why would these be 3 different weapons then, and not equipment?
If you have all 3, can you just use the Caress and have ALL the other rules?

As Krisswall has adequately described, you only have Special Rules on weapons when you use the weapon.

I think the when equipped thing is just garbage rules writing. I really think GW intended for the "when equipped" rules to always function, but their own ruleset prevents this. I really just think this comes down to not playtesting and not having a technical writer on staff to edit the rules.

 Kriswall wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
3 weapons:
-Harlequin's Caress
-Harlequin's Embrace
-Harlequin's Kiss

3 Special Rules:
-Caress of Death
-Embrace of Death
-Kiss of Death

Both Embrace and Kiss mention "when equipped" with the weapon, making it sound like only possession of the weapon is needed in order to use the rule.
Why would these be 3 different weapons then, and not equipment?
If you have all 3, can you just use the Caress and have ALL the other rules?

As Krisswall has adequately described, you only have Special Rules on weapons when you use the weapon.

I think the when equipped thing is just garbage rules writing. I really think GW intended for the "when equipped" rules to always function, but their own ruleset prevents this. I really just think this comes down to not playtesting and not having a technical writer on staff to edit the rules.

Its a case where codex trumps rulebook. It's obviously confusing or there wouldn't be multiple threads about it though.

According to rigeld2 (from the other thread) the other weapon that grants HoW (embrace) won't actually grant give you HoW. According to him, the weapon only works at your initiative, so you can never make those HoW attacks (again, according to him)... Riight...

For what it's worth, I just read the WD and the way they describe him, the solitare actually really sounds like he was designed to be using both weapons.
Combining that with the fact that the wording on kiss actually supports using it with other weapons may be an indicator of RAI.. Too bad that they couldn't make it work RAW though! Here's to hoping for a quick FAQ though (a fools hope, I know)!

 Zewrath wrote:
According to rigeld2 (from the other thread) the other weapon that grants HoW (embrace) won't actually grant give you HoW. According to him, the weapon only works at your initiative, so you can never make those HoW attacks (again, according to him)... Riight...

For what it's worth, I just read the WD and the way they describe him, the solitare actually really sounds like he was designed to be using both weapons.
Combining that with the fact that the wording on kiss actually supports using it with other weapons may be an indicator of RAI.. Too bad that they couldn't make it work RAW though! Here's to hoping for a quick FAQ though (a fools hope, I know)!

And i'm actually agreeing to what Rigeld has said.

Sure, The rules are broken by RaW. Therefore we can all play by RaI and HYWPI: You CAN use all 3 powers while striking with the Caress.
Unfortunately you cannot say this is RaW.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:
According to rigeld2 (from the other thread) the other weapon that grants HoW (embrace) won't actually grant give you HoW. According to him, the weapon only works at your initiative, so you can never make those HoW attacks (again, according to him)... Riight...

For what it's worth, I just read the WD and the way they describe him, the solitare actually really sounds like he was designed to be using both weapons.
Combining that with the fact that the wording on kiss actually supports using it with other weapons may be an indicator of RAI.. Too bad that they couldn't make it work RAW though! Here's to hoping for a quick FAQ though (a fools hope, I know)!

And i'm actually agreeing to what Rigeld has said.

Sure, The rules are broken by RaW. Therefore we can all play by RaI and HYWPI: You CAN use all 3 powers while striking with the Caress.
Unfortunately you cannot say this is RaW.

I never made such claim, I think you should read my post again. I agree with the fact that you can't benefit from the kiss, if you use the caress, what I don't agree with is how, according to this guy, axe of blind fury don't give you -1 BS, Yriel isn't cursed and normal harlequin's can't use their embrace, because those things only work on initiate.

 Zewrath wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:
According to rigeld2 (from the other thread) the other weapon that grants HoW (embrace) won't actually grant give you HoW. According to him, the weapon only works at your initiative, so you can never make those HoW attacks (again, according to him)... Riight...

For what it's worth, I just read the WD and the way they describe him, the solitare actually really sounds like he was designed to be using both weapons.
Combining that with the fact that the wording on kiss actually supports using it with other weapons may be an indicator of RAI.. Too bad that they couldn't make it work RAW though! Here's to hoping for a quick FAQ though (a fools hope, I know)!

And i'm actually agreeing to what Rigeld has said.

Sure, The rules are broken by RaW. Therefore we can all play by RaI and HYWPI: You CAN use all 3 powers while striking with the Caress.
Unfortunately you cannot say this is RaW.

I never made such claim, I think you should read my post again. I agree with the fact that you can't benefit from the kiss, if you use the caress, what I don't agree with is how, according to this guy, axe of blind fury don't give you -1 BS, Yriel isn't cursed and normal harlequin's can't use their embrace, because those things only work on initiate.

"Unfortunately you cannot say this is RaW." Was a general "You". Should've written it as such:
'It cannot be said that this is RaW'

And the conclusion by RaW of only striking blows at your own initiative is correct, but obviously not HIWPI.

 Zewrath wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:
According to rigeld2 (from the other thread) the other weapon that grants HoW (embrace) won't actually grant give you HoW. According to him, the weapon only works at your initiative, so you can never make those HoW attacks (again, according to him)... Riight...

For what it's worth, I just read the WD and the way they describe him, the solitare actually really sounds like he was designed to be using both weapons.
Combining that with the fact that the wording on kiss actually supports using it with other weapons may be an indicator of RAI.. Too bad that they couldn't make it work RAW though! Here's to hoping for a quick FAQ though (a fools hope, I know)!

And i'm actually agreeing to what Rigeld has said.

Sure, The rules are broken by RaW. Therefore we can all play by RaI and HYWPI: You CAN use all 3 powers while striking with the Caress.
Unfortunately you cannot say this is RaW.

I never made such claim, I think you should read my post again. I agree with the fact that you can't benefit from the kiss, if you use the caress, what I don't agree with is how, according to this guy, axe of blind fury don't give you -1 BS, Yriel isn't cursed and normal harlequin's can't use their embrace, because those things only work on initiate.

Instead of just defaming me, how about you come up with rules reasons I'm wrong?

Ok so this has got a bit nasty since I last checked in. A real shame.

I have emailed GW for rules clarification and they have sent it to the right team so I will post the response here when I recieve it.

For reference, the email address I was asked to use for the future is gamefaqs@gwplc.com

heres to hoping they answer it in a faq/errata

a bit like a combat familiar ':/

Would you try to argue that my autarch with the shard isn't fearless except for the instance he is attacking? I've already houserulled it with my whole gaming group, so this argument doesn't affect me. But I've followed each of these debates, and the codex trumps BRB should apply. The weapon itself uses language that expressly sets its special rule apart from normal bonuses, and the language is repeated on numerous special weapons in the game, if my rune priest used a krak grenade to attack, why would he lose the adamantine will special rule? These examples keep being brought up to help this argument, no one ever tried to deny these inherent bonuses before, but (for some reason) these are denied as perfect examples of past practice of this exact situation. My two cents.

the RAW is clear.

choosing a weapon does not matter in this case, because you can get the effect without choosing the weapon.

Some people in this thread are not quoting the full rule of mixing and matching.

If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows – he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons.

Clearly it shows the rule is requiring you to strike with one melee one weapon, if you have two. And not allowing you to combine the effects of striking with another weapon.

However the rules for embrace and kiss are clear, they are not based on the weapon striking. Most weapons have rules like 'strikedown' 'shred' 'armourbane' 'unwieldly' etc which state specifically they are are only used when the weapon with that rule is striking with that weapon. Therefore if it is not the chosen weapon you do not get the rules that require it to be striking something.

Kiss and Embrace have rules stating they give the model an ability that works when the model makes its close combat attacks.

There is no rule anywhere stating you do not get the special abilities/rules of your models equipped items while in combat and not using that equipped item.

Anyone arguing that the model cannot use the abilities is breaking the RAW of the item, and further is making silly claims like special rules which affect models do not work, so a model with poison (not a weapon) does not work, the effect of rolling a 6 on the perils chart 'warp surge' would not grant fleshbane, armourbane, storm shields would never grant a save if you striek with another weapon, tyranid tail biomorphs would have no effect, etc.

anyone who claims these items do not work has no actual RAW support for the stance that models do not get the benefit of their wargear special rules when striking in assault. The ability granted by Kiss/Embrace is an ability granted to the model contingent on the model being in assault and striking, not the model striking with a chosen weapon. There is no requirement that the weapon is actually chosen to be the weapon you strike with in these cases, and further the misinterpretation of the RAW on more than one weapon is silly and actually breaks the RAW.

No one has demonstrated why the kiss's rule doesn't trump the rule book. Codexes always trump the rule book.

"when a model equipped with a harlequins kiss makes its close combat attacks, one of it its attacks will be a kiss of death attack"

Overrides

"If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows – he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons."

Unless there is some reason it wouldn't that nobody has brought up.

Trystis wrote:
No one has demonstrated why the kiss's rule doesn't trump the rule book. Codexes always trump the rule book.

Does the Harlequin's Kiss explicitly say that it can be used with another weapon? If not, then it doesn't meet the requirement for 'Basic versus Advanced' to come into play.

it explicitly says the special rule Kiss of death can be used by the model when it makes attacks in close combat attack.

so its not being used with another weapon, it gives the model a special rule that modifies its close combat attacks as per its RAW. see storm shield, dispersion shield, sump, shard, nightmare shroud, thunderwolf, a myraid of other wargear and equipped items that gives special rules to models when they strike in assault but not special rules that are based on choosing the weapon to strike with, as they are not special rules in any way tied to striking with the weapon as per the RAW.

blaktoof wrote:
storm shield, dispersion shield, sump, shard, nightmare shroud, thunderwolf, a myraid of other wargear and equipped items that gives special rules to models when they strike in assault

And how many of these are melee weapons?

Doesn't the Storm shield count as a second close combat weapon? I am fairly certain the Wolf is wargear.

I'm not familiar with the others.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Doesn't the Storm shield count as a second close combat weapon? I am fairly certain the Wolf is wargear.

I'm not familiar with the others.

Nope. The Storm Shield provides an invuln save and denies the 2 weapon Attack bonus.

 Happyjew wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Doesn't the Storm shield count as a second close combat weapon? I am fairly certain the Wolf is wargear.

I'm not familiar with the others.

Nope. The Storm Shield provides an invuln save and denies the 2 weapon Attack bonus.

Did it in the past? I could have sworn it was, but I quit marines because they are crappy models, and I hated the fluff for them. Oddly enough I haven't fought against storm shields in years.

No where in basic versus advanced does it say that it must be explicitly stated that it overrides the rule book. It says that when there is a conflict then the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence.

Well in 3rd edition it was a once per turn use in melee only.
In 4th edition it was still melee only, but not once per turn. It also denied the bonus attack for two weapons.
In 5th it became as it is now - permanent invuln save, no 2 weapon bonus.

Trystis wrote:
No where in basic versus advanced does it say that it must be explicitly stated that it overrides the rule book. It says that when there is a conflict then the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence.

If its not explicitly stated then you don't have proof of a conflict. All you have is your opinion that the wording is sufficient when its not.

I'm not sure why the Embrace and Kiss would not work. The rule simply need you to have the equipment, not use it.

The Embrace and Kiss are distinctively different from the Caress which states each hit made by a weapon with this special rule, while the others simple need a model to be equipped with it and it add special things.

The reason I am seeing why they are all melee weapons is so the troupes have to choose what they bring while models like the Solitude or the possible Great Harlequin can benefit from all of them if they choose to attack with the Caress.

Nilok, per the rules I choose to use the Embrace. Please show permission to benefit from the Kiss's special rules when making an attack.

Please note that the "wwhen a model equipped with a harlequins kiss makes its close combat attacks" is not permission.

 Nilok wrote:
I'm not sure why the Embrace and Kiss would not work. The rule simply need you to have the equipment, not use it.

Because its still the ability of the weapon, and you would be trying to "... mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons..." which is explicitly forbidden by the rules, nor is there a rule letting you use the ability of a weapon just by being 'equipped' with it. The only rule we have for the special abilities of Melee weapons is by using that weapon to attack.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Nilok wrote:
I'm not sure why the Embrace and Kiss would not work. The rule simply need you to have the equipment, not use it.

Because its still the ability of the weapon, and you would be trying to "... mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons..." which is explicitly forbidden by the rules, nor is there a rule letting you use the ability of a weapon just by being 'equipped' with it. The only rule we have for the special abilities of Melee weapons is by using that weapon to attack.

Um, actually there is. It is the Kiss of Death Rule: "When a model equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss makes its close combat attacks, one of its Attacks will be a Kiss of Death Attack(Roll this Attack separately)."

That sure sounds like, just being equipped by it.

Core rules there is not, the Kiss of Death rule does explicitly state it.