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 AndrewC wrote:

Let's be clear here, you are maintaining that all terrain is discounted when wraiths move or assault? Even when that then results in them being unable to assault units on higher levels, or even being able to move to those higher levels in the movement phase?

The reason that I want to know is for the next round in YMDC when someone asks if wraiths can move to the upper levels of ruins or battlements.

Cheers

Andrew

Why would they not be able to move to the upper levels ?

Where are the rules for doing so? Under the relevant terrain sections for ruins and fortifications. But if the wraiths are to treat all terrain as open terrain, and as TompiQ quote earlier, no special rule apply to open terrain. So the rules that apply to those buildings do not apply to wraiths.

Personally I think a few people are trying to have their cake and eat it in this discussion.

Cheers

Andrew


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kangodo wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
Let's be clear here, you are maintaining that all terrain is discounted when wraiths move or assault? Even when that then results in them being unable to assault units on higher levels, or even being able to move to those higher levels in the movement phase?

The reason that I want to know is for the next round in YMDC when someone asks if wraiths can move to the upper levels of ruins or battlements.

Cheers

Andrew

I do not know and I do not care: This thread is about their Initiative which RAW isn't penalized when they attack someone in DT.
You will never gain such a thread because nobody is actually going to create it.

But you are doing it again!
You are making up some hypothetical unforeseen consequence of following the rules to try and "prove" that it is wrong.
Having a weird side-effect does not mean that it's not RAW, it means that GW isn't perfect in their rules-writing.

You would be amazed at how many threads devolve in that way into unforeseen consequences. And in many cases trying to argue a point in isolation is the worst possible way to resolve a question. And agreed that a weird side effect does not mean that something is not raw. However at least have the good grace to accept that RAW then throws up even more unusual situations in this case.

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:
Where are the rules for doing so? Under the relevant terrain sections for ruins and fortifications. But if the wraiths are to treat all terrain as open terrain, and as TompiQ quote earlier, no special rule apply to open terrain. So the rules that apply to those buildings do not apply to wraiths.

Personally I think a few people are trying to have their cake and eat it in this discussion.

Cheers

Andrew

You're missing one thing: there are no rules for moving up and down different levels of terrain anymore. The only relevant rules for battlements state that they are difficult terrain that some units don't have to take dangerous terrain tests for. Please provide page numbers and point us to the rules you speak about, because as far as I can tell, no such rules exist.

Edit - Which of course means that if wraiths cannot move up and down levels, nothing can.

Kangodo wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
Let's be clear here, you are maintaining that all terrain is discounted when wraiths move or assault? Even when that then results in them being unable to assault units on higher levels, or even being able to move to those higher levels in the movement phase?

The reason that I want to know is for the next round in YMDC when someone asks if wraiths can move to the upper levels of ruins or battlements.

Cheers

Andrew

I do not know and I do not care: This thread is about their Initiative which RAW isn't penalized when they attack someone in DT.
You will never gain such a thread because nobody is actually going to create it.

But you are doing it again!
You are making up some hypothetical unforeseen consequence of following the rules to try and "prove" that it is wrong.
Having a weird side-effect does not mean that it's not RAW, it means that GW isn't perfect in their rules-writing.

I like how you haven't pointed out the hole in his argument that the rules for moving up and down in terrain is in the movement section and doesn't mention anything about not applying to open terrain.

Edit: Ninja'd

changemod wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Thing is, the charging-into-terrain rule is supposed to represent the defenders being able to find objects to defend themselves behind. It's not actually about the models charging being slowed down at all. That's why grenades work how they do - dodging the grenade blast means the defenders can't set themselves against the charge properly.

By that fluff based logic, how are you setting yourself against a charge by things that pass through walls?

Exactly my point.

If we go by fluff, CSM all are EW, have Rage, hatred of everything and can freely come and go from the Warp...

Don't mix fluff and rules, its something i learned myself.

Even if yes, it gives an insight to why a rule works a certain way, its by no means a truthfull reflexion.

Yeah sorry but it would explicitly say they don't take that initiative hit....

also

"even if the charging unit is not slowed by difficult terrain."

Vaguely covers it... they treat it as open ground so are not slowed by it.... GW will eventually FAQ it like last time...its amazing how many people will bend the rules to their favour but I am 100000% sure would kick and scream if their opponent did the same.

40k-noob wrote:

 Anpu-adom wrote:
Since the rule doesn't say that you don't take the initiative penalty, then you still have to go to initiative 1. You may not be in difficult terrain, but the unit you are assaulting certainly is. You ignore the decrease in your charge distance, but you still go at initiative 1.

That being said... I'm running at least 2 units of wraiths in every necron list I'm building.

It wouldnt have to state that if it is treating as "open ground" because there would not be a penalty in the first place.

So , if you are treating as "open ground" in say not taking the -2" penalty, you have to also not take the Initiative penalty.


however being Init 2 anyway how often will it really make a difference anyway?!?

no those are two separate things, and being I5 now, it most certainly makes a difference.


the -2 to assault distance is separate from the initiative penalty, beasts for example ignore the -2 but still fight at I1.

wraiths do as well, while *MOVING* they treat difficult as open,

But while CHARGING they have no such special rule to ignore the I penalty, the I penalty has nothing to do with movement, and the rule specifically states that even models not slowed by difficult must still strike at I 1.

wraiths certainly are not slowed by difficult, but they still strike at I1 because the rule plainly says "even models that are not slowed by difficult" strike at I1, and just because you treated the difficult terrain as open for *MOVEMENT* purposes, does not mean you get to do so for other purposes.

To argue otherwise is to argue that wraiths ignore terrain in its entirety, as opposed to *just* for movement. so no cover for wraths, they can see through LOS blocking terrain, and so on with all sorts of sillyness.

as it is RAW is they just treat it as open ground for *MOVING* not shooting, not assault initiative, not other things, just *MOVING*

sm3g wrote:
Yeah sorry but it would explicitly say they don't take that initiative hit....

also

"even if the charging unit is not slowed by difficult terrain."

Vaguely covers it... they treat it as open ground so are not slowed by it.... GW will eventually FAQ it like last time...its amazing how many people will bend the rules to their favour but I am 100000% sure would kick and scream if their opponent did the same.

1. "Not slowed by" and "Treat as open ground" are two different things.
You can't really say that they do roughly the same and then make rulings based on that.

2. It doesn't have to explicitly say that, indirectly allowing them to ignore it is more than enough. That is how rules work.

3. You are right. It's amazing how people are trying to bend the rules in order to deny the Wraiths their I5 attacks they clearly have in DT, just because it would give them an advantage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@easysauce
You keep typing *MOVING* in such a weird way.
You are surely not claiming that a Charge Move is not moving?

sm3g wrote:
Yeah sorry but it would explicitly say they don't take that initiative hit....

also

"even if the charging unit is not slowed by difficult terrain."

Vaguely covers it... they treat it as open ground so are not slowed by it.... GW will eventually FAQ it like last time...its amazing how many people will bend the rules to their favour but I am 100000% sure would kick and scream if their opponent did the same.

But it does explicitly say that they move over it as if it was open ground, and you do not trigger any penalties when moving over open ground.

 easysauce wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 Anpu-adom wrote:
Since the rule doesn't say that you don't take the initiative penalty, then you still have to go to initiative 1. You may not be in difficult terrain, but the unit you are assaulting certainly is. You ignore the decrease in your charge distance, but you still go at initiative 1.

That being said... I'm running at least 2 units of wraiths in every necron list I'm building.

It wouldnt have to state that if it is treating as "open ground" because there would not be a penalty in the first place.

So , if you are treating as "open ground" in say not taking the -2" penalty, you have to also not take the Initiative penalty.


however being Init 2 anyway how often will it really make a difference anyway?!?

no those are two separate things, and being I5 now, it most certainly makes a difference.


the -2 to assault distance is separate from the initiative penalty, beasts for example ignore the -2 but still fight at I1.

wraiths do as well, while *MOVING* they treat difficult as open,

But while CHARGING they have no such special rule to ignore the I penalty, the I penalty has nothing to do with movement, and the rule specifically states that even models not slowed by difficult must still strike at I 1.

wraiths certainly are not slowed by difficult, but they still strike at I1 because the rule plainly says "even models that are not slowed by difficult" strike at I1, and just because you treated the difficult terrain as open for *MOVEMENT* purposes, does not mean you get to do so for other purposes.

To argue otherwise is to argue that wraiths ignore terrain in its entirety, as opposed to *just* for movement. so no cover for wraths, they can see through LOS blocking terrain, and so on with all sorts of sillyness.

as it is RAW is they just treat it as open ground for *MOVING* not shooting, not assault initiative, not other things, just *MOVING*

I'm sorry, but charging is a form of moving. This is a direct quote from the rulebook:

CHARGE MOVE
The charging unit now moves into close combat with the unit(s) it has declared a charge against – this is called a charge move.

Moving Charging Models
Charging units must attempt to move into base contact with as many opposing models in the enemy unit as possible with as many of their models as possible – no holding back or trying to avoid terrain! All of the models in a charging unit make their charge move – up to the 2D6 distance you rolled earlier – following the same rules as in the Movement phase, with the exception that they can be moved within 1" of enemy models. Charging models still cannot move through friendly or enemy models, and cannot move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not charging (a unit can charge more than one enemy unit by declaring a multiple charge – this is described in the Multiple Combats section).

Underscores are mine for emphasis. Take extra note of the sentence "following the same rules as in the Movement phase". Even without that, Wraithflight says "When moving [...]", not "In the movement phase[...]", and as you can see above charging is a form of moving. It is undeniable. Further more, this is how you trigger the I penalty:

if at least one model in the charging unit [i]moved through difficult terrain as part of its charge move, all of the unit’s models must attack at Initiative step 1[/i]

The trigger is moving through difficult terrain. Wraiths instead count as moving through open ground. If you only move through open ground when charging, do you suffer a penalty to your initiative?

Your arguments are tired... all of the same arguements were tried when the 5th book came out. The difference between the wording then and the wording now is not significant enough to think that it GW's FAQ will be over ruled.

In a permissive ruleset, you need express permission to counteract another rule. The only things that have expressly ignored the drop in initiative have stated that it expressly ignores the drop in initiative.

sm3g wrote:
Yeah sorry but it would explicitly say they don't take that initiative hit....

also

"even if the charging unit is not slowed by difficult terrain."

Vaguely covers it... they treat it as open ground so are not slowed by it.... GW will eventually FAQ it like last time...its amazing how many people will bend the rules to their favour but I am 100000% sure would kick and scream if their opponent did the same.

In the old codex the wraith flight rule said "not slowed by". That made them get the ini 1 penalty. Now they changed it to treat it as open ground. Why change the wording if it wasn't supposed to do anything? If they still should get the ini1 penalty they could just leave it as it was...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu-adom wrote:
Your arguments are tired... all of the same arguements were tried when the 5th book came out. The difference between the wording then and the wording now is not significant enough to think that it GW's FAQ will be over ruled.

In a permissive ruleset, you need express permission to counteract another rule. The only things that have expressly ignored the drop in initiative have stated that it expressly ignores the drop in initiative.

Same here, the difference is significant enough to expect that GW intended the rule to change, not stay the same...

 Anpu-adom wrote:
Your arguments are tired... all of the same arguements were tried when the 5th book came out. The difference between the wording then and the wording now is not significant enough to think that it GW's FAQ will be over ruled.

In a permissive ruleset, you need express permission to counteract another rule. The only things that have expressly ignored the drop in initiative have stated that it expressly ignores the drop in initiative.

We have explicit permission to count wraiths as moving through open ground at all times, even when charging. When you charge through open ground, do you incur any penalties to your initiative?

 Anpu-adom wrote:
Your arguments are tired... all of the same arguements were tried when the 5th book came out. The difference between the wording then and the wording now is not significant enough to think that it GW's FAQ will be over ruled.

In a permissive ruleset, you need express permission to counteract another rule. The only things that have expressly ignored the drop in initiative have stated that it expressly ignores the drop in initiative.

The difference in the two wordings is quite significant as one tells you that their movement is unaffected by the terrain (which does nothing to change the nature of that terrain) while the other changes the nature of the terrain (by quite expressly removing that terrain for the purposes of movement)

 ah64pilot5 wrote:

 Anpu-adom wrote:
Your arguments are tired... all of the same arguements were tried when the 5th book came out. The difference between the wording then and the wording now is not significant enough to think that it GW's FAQ will be over ruled.

In a permissive ruleset, you need express permission to counteract another rule. The only things that have expressly ignored the drop in initiative have stated that it expressly ignores the drop in initiative.

The difference in the two wordings is quite significant as one tells you that their movement is unaffected by the terrain (which does nothing to change the nature of that terrain) while the other changes the nature of the terrain (by quite expressly removing that terrain for the purposes of movement)

In which case would they get a cover save for being inside a forest (not 25% obscured) since you know, its open ground?

EDIT: Disregard, it'd never be better than their 3++

Jay_Mo wrote:

 Anpu-adom wrote:
Your argumnts are tired... all of the same arguements were tried when the 5th book came out. The difference between the wording then and the wording now is not significant enough to think that it GW's FAQ will be over ruled.

In a permissive ruleset, you need express permission to counteract another rule. The only things that have expressly ignored the drop in initiative have stated that it expressly ignores the drop in initiative.

Same here, the difference is significant enough to expect that GW intended the rule to change, not stay the same...

Granted, the wording is different. You still haven't shown and change of intent on GW's part. You cannot escape that fact that every other piece of wargear that allows models to ignore the initiative penalty EXPLICITLY STATES that it allows the units to ignore the initiative penalty.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TompiQ wrote:

 Anpu-adom wrote:
Your arguments are tired... all of the same arguements were tried when the 5th book came out. The difference between the wording then and the wording now is not significant enough to think that it GW's FAQ will be over ruled.

In a permissive ruleset, you need express permission to counteract another rule. The only things that have expressly ignored the drop in initiative have stated that it expressly ignores the drop in initiative.

We have explicit permission to count wraiths as moving through open ground at all times, even when charging. When you charge through open ground, do you incur any penalties to your initiative?

You may count the ground as open, but you still don't have explicit permission to ignore the terrain penalty. Words that would do that are found in the rules of assault grenades and the Flip Belt from the Harlequin codex. We don't have those, so it isn't explicit.

 Anpu-adom wrote:
You may count the ground as open, but you still don't have explicit permission to ignore the terrain penalty.

And you've yet to explain how you trigger the terrain penalty if you don't count the terrain as difficult terrain, something which the Wraithflight rule says you do not do.

sm3g wrote:

 ah64pilot5 wrote:

 Anpu-adom wrote:
Your arguments are tired... all of the same arguements were tried when the 5th book came out. The difference between the wording then and the wording now is not significant enough to think that it GW's FAQ will be over ruled.

In a permissive ruleset, you need express permission to counteract another rule. The only things that have expressly ignored the drop in initiative have stated that it expressly ignores the drop in initiative.

The difference in the two wordings is quite significant as one tells you that their movement is unaffected by the terrain (which does nothing to change the nature of that terrain) while the other changes the nature of the terrain (by quite expressly removing that terrain for the purposes of movement)

In which case would they get a cover save for being inside a forest (not 25% obscured) since you know, its open ground?

EDIT: Disregard, it'd never be better than their 3++

You discount the terrain for movement purposes, not cover purposes. The reason this stops the I penalty from triggering is because it itself is triggered by moving in the terrain.

 Anpu-adom wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

TompiQ wrote:

 Anpu-adom wrote:
Your arguments are tired... all of the same arguements were tried when the 5th book came out. The difference between the wording then and the wording now is not significant enough to think that it GW's FAQ will be over ruled.

In a permissive ruleset, you need express permission to counteract another rule. The only things that have expressly ignored the drop in initiative have stated that it expressly ignores the drop in initiative.

We have explicit permission to count wraiths as moving through open ground at all times, even when charging. When you charge through open ground, do you incur any penalties to your initiative?

You may count the ground as open, but you still don't have explicit permission to ignore the terrain penalty. Words that would do that are found in the rules of assault grenades and the Flip Belt from the Harlequin codex. We don't have those, so it isn't explicit.

No, you may not count the ground as open. You may count other models and terrain as Open Ground, which is a type of terrain and as such replaces any function the original terrain would have that in any way relates to movement or movement triggered penalties. You cannot treat something as both difficult terrain and open ground for the same purpose.

Im curious as to why Games Workshop explicitly worded it to say that the flip belt does not suffer the penalty when charging if they didn't need to? (which would be the case if this wraith argument was in fact true).

sm3g wrote:
Im curious as to why Games Workshop explicitly worded it to say that the flip belt does not suffer the penalty when charging if they didn't need to? (which would be the case if this wraith argument was in fact true).

Because Harlequins are not slowed by DT. Per the rules, if you charge through DT (even if not slowed), you strike at Init 1. Harlequins, get around this by virtue of a wargear that specifically counters that rule.

Wraiths on the other hand, treat DT as Open Ground when moving. When they go to strike blows you check - did they charge through DT? No, they charged through Open Ground (otherwise you are not counting DT as Open Ground when thy moved).

sm3g wrote:
Im curious as to why Games Workshop explicitly worded it to say that the flip belt does not suffer the penalty when charging if they didn't need to? (which would be the case if this wraith argument was in fact true).

Different writers and fluff. The Flip Belt reflects them being able to move over terrain with the greatest of ease, while Wraith Flight reflects the Wraith ignoring the terrain entirely.

Really it would be better if they had editors to make sure the rules were consistent across different books so when a writer makes an assumptions on how they think the rules works, they can be checked.

sm3g wrote:
Im curious as to why Games Workshop explicitly worded it to say that the flip belt does not suffer the penalty when charging if they didn't need to? (which would be the case if this wraith argument was in fact true).

The flip belt has an entirely different effect compared to wraithflight. Harlequins still treat difficult terrain as difficult terrain and not open ground when moving through it, which means that in accordance with the Charging through Difficult Terrain paragraph of the rulebook they would invoke the I penalty when moving through it. That is why it has to be written out.

Not being slowed by difficult terrain does not help you with the I penalty. Not counting as having moved through difficult terrain at all, however, does.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nilok wrote:

sm3g wrote:
Im curious as to why Games Workshop explicitly worded it to say that the flip belt does not suffer the penalty when charging if they didn't need to? (which would be the case if this wraith argument was in fact true).

Different writers and fluff. The Flip Belt reflects them being able to move over terrain with the greatest of ease, while Wraith Flight reflects the Wraith ignoring the terrain entirely.

Really it would be better if they had editors to make sure the rules were consistent across different books so when a writer makes an assumptions on how they think the rules works, they can be checked.

I don't know, the rules still fill different purposes. Flip belts are not intended to allow you to walk through terrain, nor does it help with dangerous, so a similar wording would not be sufficient to cater to these differences. They are worded differently because the rules are inherently different, not because different writers wrote them.

sm3g wrote:
Im curious as to why Games Workshop explicitly worded it to say that the flip belt does not suffer the penalty when charging if they didn't need to? (which would be the case if this wraith argument was in fact true).

Except they would as flip belts cause models to not be slowed by difficult terrain while Wraithflight makes wraiths treat it as open ground, two different things.
Models that aren't slowed still suffer the Initiative penalty unless stated otherwise, models that treat it as open ground can't suffer the penalty as open ground doesn't have such a penalty.

TompiQ wrote:

sm3g wrote:
Im curious as to why Games Workshop explicitly worded it to say that the flip belt does not suffer the penalty when charging if they didn't need to? (which would be the case if this wraith argument was in fact true).

The flip belt has an entirely different effect compared to wraithflight. Harlequins still treat difficult terrain as difficult terrain and not open ground when moving through it, which means that in accordance with the Charging through Difficult Terrain paragraph of the rulebook they would invoke the I penalty when moving through it. That is why it has to be written out.

Not being slowed by difficult terrain does not help you with the I penalty. Not counting as having moved through difficult terrain at all, however, does.

They are not slowed and do not suffer a penalty when charging...so whats the point in having them treat it as difficult terrain - if the wraith argument is valid I do not see how these rules would differ one little bit in the game..they would both move through it normally, they would both attack at full initiative and they would both not take a penalty to charge distance....

sm3g wrote:

 ah64pilot5 wrote:

 Anpu-adom wrote:
Your arguments are tired... all of the same arguements were tried when the 5th book came out. The difference between the wording then and the wording now is not significant enough to think that it GW's FAQ will be over ruled.

In a permissive ruleset, you need express permission to counteract another rule. The only things that have expressly ignored the drop in initiative have stated that it expressly ignores the drop in initiative.

The difference in the two wordings is quite significant as one tells you that their movement is unaffected by the terrain (which does nothing to change the nature of that terrain) while the other changes the nature of the terrain (by quite expressly removing that terrain for the purposes of movement)

In which case would they get a cover save for being inside a forest (not 25% obscured) since you know, its open ground?

EDIT: Disregard, it'd never be better than their 3++

It is important to note that they only treat terrain as open ground with regards to Movement. But it is still terrain and still does provide cover when it comes to shooting or another unit assaulting the wraiths in terrain.

The brb says all models that are not slowed by terrain still need to take the ini penalty. This refers to many rules using the exact wording "not slowed by". Some of these specifically states they do not suffer the ini penalty, because they have to.

But the wraithflight wording do not longer say it's not slowed by it, it says it is treated as open ground when moving, which means you shouldn't apply the rules for difficult terrain when they move.

The claim that it must specifically state ini is affected refers to rules using the wording "slowed by" only.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sm3g wrote:

TompiQ wrote:

sm3g wrote:
Im curious as to why Games Workshop explicitly worded it to say that the flip belt does not suffer the penalty when charging if they didn't need to? (which would be the case if this wraith argument was in fact true).

The flip belt has an entirely different effect compared to wraithflight. Harlequins still treat difficult terrain as difficult terrain and not open ground when moving through it, which means that in accordance with the Charging through Difficult Terrain paragraph of the rulebook they would invoke the I penalty when moving through it. That is why it has to be written out.

Not being slowed by difficult terrain does not help you with the I penalty. Not counting as having moved through difficult terrain at all, however, does.

They are not slowed and do not suffer a penalty when charging...so whats the point in having them treat it as difficult terrain - if the wraith argument is valid I do not see how these rules would differ one little bit in the game..they would both move through it normally, they would both attack at full initiative and they would both not take a penalty to charge distance....

They may be the same rules with different wording. This happens a lot.

TompiQ wrote:

 Nilok wrote:

sm3g wrote:
Im curious as to why Games Workshop explicitly worded it to say that the flip belt does not suffer the penalty when charging if they didn't need to? (which would be the case if this wraith argument was in fact true).

Different writers and fluff. The Flip Belt reflects them being able to move over terrain with the greatest of ease, while Wraith Flight reflects the Wraith ignoring the terrain entirely.

Really it would be better if they had editors to make sure the rules were consistent across different books so when a writer makes an assumptions on how they think the rules works, they can be checked.

I don't know, the rules still fill different purposes. Flip belts are not intended to allow you to walk through terrain, nor does it help with dangerous, so a similar wording would not be sufficient to cater to these differences. They are worded differently because the rules are inherently different, not because different writers wrote them.

Only the C'tan version prevent Dangerous Tests, Wraiths will still take a Dangerous Test if they are subject to them.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Anpu-adom wrote:
You may count the ground as open, but you still don't have explicit permission to ignore the terrain penalty.

And you've yet to explain how you trigger the terrain penalty if you don't count the terrain as difficult terrain, something which the Wraithflight rule says you do not do.

And you've yet to explain how you have explicit permission to ignore a basic rule of the game.

Anpu, a unit charges, moving through Difficult Terrain. What Init do they strike at?

A unit charges, moving over Open Ground. What Init do they strik at?

 Anpu-adom wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Anpu-adom wrote:
You may count the ground as open, but you still don't have explicit permission to ignore the terrain penalty.

And you've yet to explain how you trigger the terrain penalty if you don't count the terrain as difficult terrain, something which the Wraithflight rule says you do not do.

And you've yet to explain how you have explicit permission to ignore a basic rule of the game.

The fact that the Wraithflight rule means that they never trigger the penalty. That's what special rules do, they ignore the basic rules of the game. Once again, please explain what triggers the penalty instead of ignoring the question.