Who mans the Rhino turret?

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**jayko657**

I think it's well accepted by now that Space Marine vehicles, not including bikes and landspeeders, have their own crews, but is the Rhino gunner a techmarine or seperate? The Machina Opus is on the included shoulder pads in the Rhino/Razorback kits, so does that mean that he's a techmarine and should be painted as such? I apologize if the answer is floating around somewhere, I just can't seem to find it.

**Furyou Miko**

Nobody knows. The book says Rhinos only have a single techmarine crewman, historically, and that the pintle-mounted storm bolter is fired by a passenger. But it works with no passenger and the guy has a Mechanicus shoulder-pad, so who's driving?

**Engine of War**

If the Driver is a Tech Marine. In all liklyhood he is hooked into the machine in some manner.

The Stormbolter is allegedly remotely controlled by the Driver, but could of course be used by a passenger.

For all we know the "modeled" space marine in the hatch could be the representation of passengers or officers onboard, even when the passengers have left.

**Furyou Miko**

That's for the standard Storm Bolter on the cupola mount - the pintle-mounted one that's fired by a person sticking their head out is only supposed to be used to model the optional upgrade one.

**jayko657**

Picking my way through the Space Marine Codex, one page at a time, I suddenly rememebred that the BRB came with that "A Galaxy of War" book. Desperate for answers and a studio painted picture that actually has a pintle mounted turret manned by a marine, I flipped through that too, not really paying attention to the pretty pictures. I came across an Imperial Fists Vindicator with the mystery marine sticking out of the hatch, using the stormbolter like it was meant to be used. He's painted yellow with a red shoulder pad for the Machina Opus - The same scheme that the techmarine flying a nearby Stormtalon is painted in. I think I just answered my own question...and made this book somewhat useful. Not exactly a rhino or actual fluff, but close enough I think?

**Grey Templar**

I believe Rhinos and Razorbacks are either crewed by the squad being transported OR 1-2 marines from the reserve companies.

As for why it can fire without passengers, its simplification for gameplay. Razorbacks would be completely useless if you needed to leave their squad inside them to fire the guns.

**Great White**

The Machine Spirit

**Veteran Sergeant**

Grey Templar wrote:
I believe Rhinos and Razorbacks are either crewed by the squad being transported OR 1-2 marines from the reserve companies.

As for why it can fire without passengers, its simplification for gameplay. Razorbacks would be completely useless if you needed to leave their squad inside them to fire the guns.

The books have been pretty clear that there are Marines assigned to the Armory who crew the vehicles.

Now, where those Marines come from is a different story. Nobody really knows. Codex: Ultramarines 3rd Edition suggests there are somewhere around 1500 Marines in a Chapter because it has both the Reserve companies listed, and specifically mentions the vehicles listed include their full crew. But GW hangs on to the 1000 Marines per chapter deal, even though there are more vehicles listed for a Chapter than there are Reserve Marines total, lol.

The original Rhino model didn't have a pintle mount. The idea is for the stormbolter to be in its own remote-operated turret, but they give you the modelling option to have a ring mount too. It's possible the driver operates it Maybe it's just got a simplified IFF system or a servitor gunner. The original vehicle cards for the Rhino in 1st (Rogue Trader) & 2nd Edition had it crewed by 1 Marine though, who is separate from the passengers. The Razorback specifically had 2 (though it didn't exist in 1st Ed).

**Furyou Miko**

VS - the ring mount is for the optional upgrade for a "pintle-mounted storm bolter" that came in when the Rhino's default armament was downgraded to a Storm Bolter (Previously it was a twin-linked bolter that took up both hatch mounts).

**TheCustomLime**

IA2: 2E sez

"[The Space Marine driver] also controls the remotely operated storm bolter, although a pintle-mounted weapon can also be operated directly by a passenger from the gunner's hatch".
(Page 183)

**Keep**

I would say that the Storm bolter in the remote position is controlled by the driver if he isnt driving.
If passengers are aboard, the sergeant rides next to the driver (seen in IA2)

I would say that the sergeant would take over the remote controlled SB, which allows the rhino to shoot accurately on the move. Unless there is an extra pintle mounted SB, in which case the remote controll stays with the driver

**natpri771**

jayko657 wrote:
I think it's well accepted by now that Space Marine vehicles, not including bikes and landspeeders, have their own crews, but is the Rhino gunner a techmarine or seperate? The Machina Opus is on the included shoulder pads in the Rhino/Razorback kits, so does that mean that he's a techmarine and should be painted as such? I apologize if the answer is floating around somewhere, I just can't seem to find it.

On the model, the gunner has a Mechanicum shoulder pad, so I would assume he's a Techmarine

**Keep**

A mechanicum symbol on your shoulder doesnt make you a techmarine

**Hanskrampf**

I would just assume the driver/Techmarine is linked with the Rhino and can either fire the Stormbolter remotely or sticking his head out and shooting the SB manually while driving the Rhino remotely.

**Frozen Ocean**

Just going to quote myself from a very similar thread:

Frozen Ocean wrote:
For several reasons it makes sense for Space Marines, rather than serfs, to crew their vehicles. Most Chapters have a strong sense of brotherhood, and would not easily trust a non-Astartes to fight alongside them, never mind carry them into battle (in the case of transports). Space Marines as aircraft pilots would make good use of their superior reflexes, and all would benefit from their many decades, if not centuries, of experience. Finally, many vehicles are venerable relics that would never be entrusted to anyone, even an Astartes, lightly.

That said, it doesn't make sense that pilots would be exclusively Techmarines, but what if the Machina Opus is a symbol to certify that the pilot in question has been trained and approved by a Techmarine? The symbol proves that the individual is not only qualified, but trusted by the Master of the Forge to crew one of the Chapter's precious relics, as a pilot, gunner, or anything else.

In short, the Machina Opus on a non-Techmarine symbolises that the pilot carries the authority of a Techmarine/the Master of the Forge. It's not a trivialisation of the symbol.

That's how I explain it, anyway.

**Keep**

Every driver in any half decent military is required to know how their vehicle operates and how to do maintenance and fieldreplacement/-repair of parts. That doesn't make them engineers or skilled technicians, but it still requires training by such individuals.

therefore

but what if the Machina Opus is a symbol to certify that the pilot in question has been trained and approved by a Techmarine? The symbol proves that the individual is not only qualified, but trusted by the Master of the Forge to crew one of the Chapter's precious relics, as a pilot, gunner, or anything else.

this is the most propable and logical reason why they have the mechanicum symbol on their shoulder. Just like a tac marine might have the tactical symbol on their shoulder, the crews have theirs (its not support or tac because it's independant and may serve as transport for one or the other at any given time)

**Gashrog**

The problem with that theory is that Sergeant Chronus "The Spear of Macragge" is permanently assigned to the Ultramarines armoury, he even has a servo arm BUT nowhere on his miniature is there a Machina Opus. If a non-Techmarine could have it, he definitely would, but he doesn't..

Another issue here is that the most recent codex resurrects (tho doesn't actually show) the old 2nd edition marking for vehicle crewmen:

If you use the Machina Opus shoulderpad then there's no room for that marking..

**Frozen Ocean**

Curious. Sergeant Chronus is definitely a problem, although he certainly looks like a Techmarine - he even has a tiny servo-arm! Maybe he can forgo the need for the Machina Opus identification badge because he's just so very fantastically amazingly famous, being an Ultramarine character?

That page predates the Machina Opus gunner, though. What in the latest Codex suggests a return to this? Also, you could still use that insignia and just put the Machina Opus on the other shoulder. Sure they don't have a badge of their Chapter, but their vehicle is probably covered in Chapter markers, anyway.

EDIT: Then again, "Spear of Macragge" is Chronus' actual title. It's entirely possible that his shoulders depict the unique heraldry of that position, which would remove the need for the Machina Opus.

**jreilly89**

The driver. One hand on an old school joystick, the other on the wheel, and a big ass cigar in his mouth, with a headband and war paint

**TheCustomLime**

I would suggest that the including Stormbolter gunner model isn't actually accurate on a Rhino. It should be a regular Space Marine with a backpack and armor but GW didn't want to make an extra sprue for that. The current Stormbolter gunner model better represents a battle tank commander.

**Frozen Ocean**

My favourite thing about the gunner is how he absolutely could not fit through the hatch.

I never use gunners (they'd look silly even if they did fit), instead attaching extra wires and a camera to the pintle-mounted weapons.

**jayko657**

Frozen Ocean wrote:
My favourite thing about the gunner is how he absolutely could not fit through the hatch.

I never use gunners (they'd look silly even if they did fit), instead attaching extra wires and a camera to the pintle-mounted weapons.

I've been told that real military vehicles have the same issue and require some shoulder shenanigans to get in and out, and that space marines should be able to pull it off as well. I'm not convinced.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frozen Ocean wrote:
Curious. Sergeant Chronus is definitely a problem, although he certainly looks like a Techmarine - he even has a tiny servo-arm! Maybe he can forgo the need for the Machina Opus identification badge because he's just so very fantastically amazingly famous, being an Ultramarine character?

That page predates the Machina Opus gunner, though. What in the latest Codex suggests a return to this? Also, you could still use that insignia and just put the Machina Opus on the other shoulder. Sure they don't have a badge of their Chapter, but their vehicle is probably covered in Chapter markers, anyway.

EDIT: Then again, "Spear of Macragge" is Chronus' actual title. It's entirely possible that his shoulders depict the unique heraldry of that position, which would remove the need for the Machina Opus.

Page 15 of the current codex, the page with vehicle markings.
"Space Marine tank crew typically display their vehicle's numerical designation within a roundel upon their right shoulder guard."

**Gashrog**

TheCustomLime wrote:
I would suggest that the including Stormbolter gunner model isn't actually accurate on a Rhino. It should be a regular Space Marine with a backpack and armor but GW didn't want to make an extra sprue for that. The current Stormbolter gunner model better represents a battle tank commander.

Actually I've just noticed.. none of the studio's vanilla Rhino models *have* gunners, every single one - including all 8 Ultramarines 2nd company Rhinos in the previous codex - has the Storm Bolter mounted on the totally separate remote mount, not the cupola (if it was mounted on the cupola it could still have some kind of remote operation):
http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/600x620/99120101063_SpaceMarineRhinoNEW02.jpg

The Blood Angels army does have a Rhino with manned Storm Bolter, and the marine doesn't have Techmarine markings - in fact, nor do any of the Predator Storm Bolter gunners either.

For what it's worth, when the current plastic kit came out GW was using art on the box covers, the Rhino box cover had a Dark Angel Tactical marine in the hatch.

**Keep**

Gashrog wrote:
If you use the Machina Opus shoulderpad then there's no room for that marking..

Not everyone uses ultramarine marking styles...

**Gashrog**

Keep wrote:
Gashrog wrote:
If you use the Machina Opus shoulderpad then there's no room for that marking..

Not everyone uses ultramarine marking styles...

True but largely irrelevant. If the Ultramarines crew marking is incompatible with the Ultramarines Techmarine marking then it means under the Codex Astartes crew are not Techmarines. An alternative marking system wouldn't change that, only a deviation from the Codex Astartes, but since we're talking about Space Marines in general, that means codex compliant.

**Computron**

Gashrog wrote:
The problem with that theory is that Sergeant Chronus "The Spear of Macragge" is permanently assigned to the Ultramarines armoury, he even has a servo arm BUT nowhere on his miniature is there a Machina Opus. If a non-Techmarine could have it, he definitely would, but he doesn't..

Another issue here is that the most recent codex resurrects (tho doesn't actually show) the old 2nd edition marking for vehicle crewmen:

If you use the Machina Opus shoulderpad then there's no room for that marking..

As the vehicle number is supposedly the 'IV', why does it not appear anywhere on the vehicle. That would mean that no one knew what vehicle it was until a crew member showed up with the number on his shoulder and throne help you if the marine had a studded shoulder pad because the other would have to have the chapter symbol which meant that you'd never know what vehicle it was!

Weren't the old 2nd ed markings that company was based on colour, vehicle on number. So a 'II' inside a yellow circle would be 2nd vehicle of 2nd company as yellow meant 2nd company. Seems redundant to have the colour and the number mean the same thing.
I think the current vehicle decals are based on that system but of course only 2nd company exists for GW so only yellow circles are provided with numbers. The older decal sheets only had yellow circles too but they were separate at least, you could paint another colour and add the number decal on top.

**Furyou Miko**

Frozen Ocean wrote:
Curious. Sergeant Chronus is definitely a problem, although he certainly looks like a Techmarine - he even has a tiny servo-arm!

Looks more like the loading arm on a Missile Launcher specialist than a servo arm to me.

**Gashrog**

Computron wrote:

As the vehicle number is supposedly the 'IV', why does it not appear anywhere on the vehicle. That would mean that no one knew what vehicle it was until a crew member showed up with the number on his shoulder and throne help you if the marine had a studded shoulder pad because the other would have to have the chapter symbol which meant that you'd never know what vehicle it was!

I hadn't noticed that! I guess the painter wasn't paying attention. The Whirlwind in the same codex did have it's number in white.

Computron wrote:
Weren't the old 2nd ed markings that company was based on colour, vehicle on number. So a 'II' inside a yellow circle would be 2nd vehicle of 2nd company as yellow meant 2nd company. Seems redundant to have the colour and the number mean the same thing.

At a guess the colour would be visible further away, but in low light conditions it might not be easy to discern the colour correctly hence the number.

**Veteran Sergeant**

Frozen Ocean wrote:
My favourite thing about the gunner is how he absolutely could not fit through the hatch.

I never use gunners (they'd look silly even if they did fit), instead attaching extra wires and a camera to the pintle-mounted weapons.

Agreed. I don't use them for the same reason. Played around with some ideas of how to make a better hatch for a bit though. But you don't need to add a camera. The bolters all have a little targeting gubbin on them already. It's what links them to the Marine's autosenses, so it would link to the vehicle's too I'm sure.

**1hadhq**

Gashrog wrote:
TheCustomLime wrote:
I would suggest that the including Stormbolter gunner model isn't actually accurate on a Rhino. It should be a regular Space Marine with a backpack and armor but GW didn't want to make an extra sprue for that. The current Stormbolter gunner model better represents a battle tank commander.

Actually I've just noticed.. none of the studio's vanilla Rhino models *have* gunners, every single one - including all 8 Ultramarines 2nd company Rhinos in the previous codex - has the Storm Bolter mounted on the totally separate remote mount, not the cupola (if it was mounted on the cupola it could still have some kind of remote operation):
http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/600x620/99120101063_SpaceMarineRhinoNEW02.jpg

The Blood Angels army does have a Rhino with manned Storm Bolter, and the marine doesn't have Techmarine markings - in fact, nor do any of the Predator Storm Bolter gunners either.

For what it's worth, when the current plastic kit came out GW was using art on the box covers, the Rhino box cover had a Dark Angel Tactical marine in the hatch.

A few examples of GW Models and codex art of vehicles and Marines at the extra mounted Stormbolters and Multimelta ( LR ). From 3rd to 6th edition, power armored books involved are: C : SM + C : DA + C : BA + C : SW + C : Armageddon.