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Alright, some friends and I finally have our acts together and are relearning the game. I'm running Eldar, one guy is running Necrons and the last guy just bought the new starter box. They're both fairly competitive and we've all run numbers for varying games before. I want this to remain friendly til we really get the hang of things as we might have a couple more joining.

Everything I hear about Eldar cheese seems to revolve around Wave Serpents and Dire Avengers. I really like the variety available in the army and I don't want to be TFG in these friendly games. Are there any other combos that just make others not want to play against Eldar?

My current list availability:

Striking Scorpians, Swooping Hawks, Dire Avengers (1 squad in 1 WS) Harlies, War Walkers and Vypers. I want to add some artillery soon but that's really it for now.

I just don't want to put anybody off playing.

Nothing wrong there.

The Eldar hate all just comes from Wave Serpents generally. If you take loads and use them like battle tanks you'll be hated. Knights as the warlord is cheesy as well IMO.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with your one wave serpent if staying friendly. 3 may raise eyebrows in friendly games, but I find 3 ok. It s when, as taffy says, people spam them (as in more than 3) that they begin to be disliked.

Three serpents is acceptable. In fact, If you are going to run a serpent at all you should take three just for target saturation sake. Running multiple units of DAVU serpents is strait cheese.

Nothing wrong with Wraithknights unless you take three. One is fine, specially in an Iyanden themed army.

Here's my Footdar list, I wouldn't consider it very competitive at all.

Farseer-Jetbike, Spirit Stone of Anath'Lan
Avatar

10x Howling Banshees
10x Striking Scorpions

20x Guardians 2x Brightlance
5x Rangers
5x Rangers
4x Windrider Guardians

8x Swooping Hawks
7x Warp Spiders

1x Nightspinner
2x War Walkers (1 Brightlance 1 Scatter Laser each)
1x Wraithknight


I'll tell you now, I am super iffy about this list. I tied my friend in a Maelstrom game, he was playing Farsight suit Tau. I think with some good work though this list could be better, and it's a good start for non-cheesy Eldar.

 Deafbeats wrote:
Here's my Footdar list, I wouldn't consider it very competitive at all.

Farseer-Jetbike, Spirit Stone of Anath'Lan
Avatar

10x Howling Banshees
10x Striking Scorpions

20x Guardians 2x Brightlance
5x Rangers
5x Rangers
4x Windrider Guardians

8x Swooping Hawks
7x Warp Spiders

1x Nightspinner
2x War Walkers (1 Brightlance 1 Scatter Laser each)
1x Wraithknight


I'll tell you now, I am super iffy about this list. I tied my friend in a Maelstrom game, he was playing Farsight suit Tau. I think with some good work though this list could be better, and it's a good start for non-cheesy Eldar.

Nothing wrong with this list at all in a casual environment. People tend to think that only WS are any good in the Eldar book, when in fact, I don't know that there is a truly bad unit in the entire codex. Less optimal maybe, situational certainly, but nothing I would consider bad/unplayable.

You know what's funny I'm a Tau player and I hate playing against a single Wraithknight lol that Suncannon scatter laser combo is just brutal. Not to mention it's impossible to hurt lol
Oh and that was in 6th edition. I don't play against it anymore thank god.

About Wave Serpents, I think their good but running 2 or 3 isn't cheese. It's when people run 6 of them when people have trouble.

Cheesiness is about how you play, not if you happen to bring one of a particular unit or not. Use your wave serpents to shock and awe your opponent with aspect warriors? No problem. Use your wave serpents to make a mechanized gunline that's immune to close combat or short ranged firepower, thus forcing your opponent to gunline themselves or struggle to have any relevance in the game? You'll lose friends quickly.

Just don't build your army as if winning is the most important thing, and those other important things won't suffer from your desire to win.

If you're not spending three quarters of your points on invisible Jetseers, running Lynxes in 1k games, or taking five Dire Avengers just to get another Wave Serpent you shouldn't have that much of a problem. Change up your list if your games end up being one-sided because of something I didn't mention, communicate with your opponent, and above all don't be a dick. You'll be fine.

 purplkrush wrote:
Alright, some friends and I finally have our acts together and are relearning the game. I'm running Eldar, one guy is running Necrons and the last guy just bought the new starter box. They're both fairly competitive and we've all run numbers for varying games before. I want this to remain friendly til we really get the hang of things as we might have a couple more joining.

Everything I hear about Eldar cheese seems to revolve around Wave Serpents and Dire Avengers. I really like the variety available in the army and I don't want to be TFG in these friendly games. Are there any other combos that just make others not want to play against Eldar?

My current list availability:

Striking Scorpians, Swooping Hawks, Dire Avengers (1 squad in 1 WS) Harlies, War Walkers and Vypers. I want to add some artillery soon but that's really it for now.

I just don't want to put anybody off playing.

Sounds good. Also, here are a couple ideas for you that don't involve the dreaded Wave spam (although if you have fast melee lists, you wont fear wavespam, just a pro tip). different articles I wrote. Some are newer than others so keep in mind they are a mix of 6E and 7E.

http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2014/01/eldar-outflanking-maniacs.html

http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2013/09/illic-nightspear.html

http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2013/07/6th-edition-eldar-codex-making-flyers.html

http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2013/07/6th-edition-eldar-hq-asurman.html

http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-new-eldar-prince-yriel.html

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

Nothing wrong with this list at all in a casual environment. People tend to think that only WS are any good in the Eldar book, when in fact, I don't know that there is a truly bad unit in the entire codex. Less optimal maybe, situational certainly, but nothing I would consider bad/unplayable.

My friend was playing missile on all his suits, 2 riptides, and Farsight Bomb with Fusion/Plasma. Oh and Buffmander. I only tied because he's a bit rusty and made some poor choices, otherwise I think he would have decimated me. But yeah, people really under estimate our other units, I for one adore Striking Scorpions, they might be my favorite unit, and I want Howling Banshees to be good so badly. This game I pointed them to his objective holding Fire Warriors where they blended them up on impact for the Game tying combat. Footdar is super fun to play

im thinking a casual lsit would probably farseer on jetbike, backed by jetbiker teams, vypers, nightspinners, and for long range support bring dark reapers and war walkers.

The thing that really makes Wave Serpents abusive IMO is the Laser Lock rule which makes everything twin linked after hitting a target with the Scatter Laser. Seeing as you have 4 shots and it's already twin linked itself you're pretty much guaranteed to get TL on your Serpent Shield and Shuriken Cannon.

Put Lances or even just TL Shuriken Cannons on top and I reckon it's fairly reasonable.

 master of asgard wrote:
The thing that really makes Wave Serpents abusive IMO is the Laser Lock rule which makes everything twin linked after hitting a target with the Scatter Laser. Seeing as you have 4 shots and it's already twin linked itself you're pretty much guaranteed to get TL on your Serpent Shield and Shuriken Cannon.

Put Lances or even just TL Shuriken Cannons on top and I reckon it's fairly reasonable.

Honestly what makes them abusive is the fact that its a DT with a 60" ST7 ignores cover with multiple shot. not the 24" mid strength gun. Scatters just make the main gun much better.

If you want to take them, just dont shoot the SS. but at that point you are shooting your self in the foot.

Also, let's not forget that most fluffy lists aren't that cheesy either. Yes, Iyanden gets wraithknights, but it's also stuck with super expensive wraithguard as well. The super durability of wraith units isn't so bad when you don't have many models on the table.

Likewise, there's little cheesy about footdar, which means ulthwe is fine, and if you play saim hann as they are intended to be played (not as a gunline), then there's not that many problems there either, and a biel tan skittlesfest is unlikely to draw ire either.

adly the Wave Serpent should be a vehicle to bring the fight to the enemy but it is the opposite because of one issue: the range. 18" range would have been sensical and balanced. Same exact weapon in every way. Suddenly the many cool units of the Eldar race get to shine beside it instead of existing as an excuse for taking it.

Alright, thanks gents I feel better about all this. I wanted a second WS for CC delivery but I was a bit nervous.

Lemme float this by y'all as long as I'm here. I was planning on running a Spirit Seer and some Wraithguard I'm getting off Ebay and an Autarch with my Swooping Hawks. I think it sounds pretty sweet as the WG and Seer can sweep in from behind to support the CC and use the Autarch and Hawks to pin my enemies between two CC units.

Sound like an alright strategy?

If you add an Autarch to Hawks, they lose their pinpoint deepstrike. Even if the Autarch has Hawk wings.

Autarchs aren't amazing beatsticks. They do some damage, bit they're mikes below a basic captain.

My Hawks assault occasionally when they outnumber Guardsmen or similar, but don't expect even a powersword exarch to do much in CC.

For non-cheese Eldar, stick to one selection of any given unit, with no more bodies than come in a single box. Its a remarkably effective way to build a casual list. Almost anything works.

Wave Serpents aren't cheesy, or OP, or competitive as soon as you drop the Scatter Laser for another option.

Not that your opponents will get it though, most whiners are just "eldar OP WS OP and they don't even know why".

false modesty will not avail you. 60". Nuff said.

 Jancoran wrote:
false modesty will not avail you. 60". Nuff said.

Come on.

60" is worth it in Apoc games, but it's near pointless in most 40K games, and then you have to be able to fire the other weapon you put on the Wave Serpent, which is going to be either 24, 36 or 48.

Really, if you're shooting at 60", you're not making good use of it and cannot qualify as competitive, cheesy or OP anyway.

I just posted a 2000 Point non spam eldar list in the 40k army list section. Only 2 serpents and you can immediately see they aren't just for shooting.

morgoth wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
false modesty will not avail you. 60". Nuff said.

Come on.

60" is worth it in Apoc games, but it's near pointless in most 40K games, and then you have to be able to fire the other weapon you put on the Wave Serpent, which is going to be either 24, 36 or 48.

Really, if you're shooting at 60", you're not making good use of it and cannot qualify as competitive, cheesy or OP anyway.

Uh...sure man.

The 60" range is kinda good though honestly. So usually yeah, 60" is wasted cause you're within 24"-36" to make full effect, BUT, I played against my friends Tau gunline where anything within 30-36" died from a volley of Missiles and Missile drones. So I stayed back and just blasted with my 4 serpents until there wasn't much left.

It does come in handle, but the situations are I think limited.

You're also overlooking that it only has to START within 36... but once they are done shooting the nearest enemy could be 45 " away. And when you want to run from danger, there's no duistance that makes it impossible to continue affecting the battle. So the 60" is quite impactful

Plus the fact that that extra 1/1.5 hits extra from the serp shield on average due to laser lock isn't exactly what makes the serp OP.


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(Can't believe how long that managed to go unchallenged! )