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 LValx wrote:
I think people underrate BA. For example:

Librarian - Veritus Vitae, ML2
5 Scouts - Meltabomb
6x 5 ASM - 2 Melta, Combi-Melta, MB, Rhino/DP

clocks in at 885 and gives you 13 units, 31 Marines, 2 Warlord Traits, 6 Pods/Rhinos with which to score or block movement, BLOS, etc. With the remaining ~1000 points and the likelihood of 3 sources, you can fit all sorts of extra goodies in. MSU beats deathstars, especially when you can block their movement with units that will score/deny. BA happen to have the best and cheapest available Pod/Rhino strategies.

SW are better with pods. Always have been. Always will be. You need a second troop as well.

First off, the fact that this is the flesh tearers strike force isn't painfully obvious to you Martel really makes me doubt you as such a "pro" player. And how are wolves better in pods? Because they have counter attack? And? Is that it?

Wolves are better at Pods, exactly because Counter Attack.

Furious Charge is good when you charge. Dropping five guys out of a Pod are:

A: Unlikely to survive a round of dedicated shooting.

B: Should they survive, they'll have maybe a couple guys left? Do they still have Meltas, or did your opponent move to kill them first?

C: Are you giving your Sergeant a CC upgrade? They're getting pricey and glass cannony and unlikely to live to charge...

D: Is your opponent mobile? Can they move out of range? Will they make a charge?

E: You manage to charge something with those guys. Cute, they're beaten in Hand to Hand, because only 2 guys made it to combat, and they don't even have a CCW upgrade. Whoopy!

F: But I'ma holdin dee objectif. I Winz! For one turn, before a Knight double taps one squad with his Battle Cannon, then "split fires" his stubbers at unit 2. He then HOW, Chops, and Stomps Unit 2 into oblivion. And guess what! The stomps carried over into a Pod, and smashed it to pieces.


Podding is just an overall weak strategy... but Wolves do it better with Invul toting Dreads. If you smash face their duders, you get tied up / beat down by their dreads. 7th is won with mobility. Plain and simple. Once you drop the pods, fast moving armies just move away and... I don't know... shoot you with 20 Multi-Lasers.

 th3maninblak wrote:
First off, the fact that this is the flesh tearers strike force isn't painfully obvious to you Martel really makes me doubt you as such a "pro" player. And how are wolves better in pods? Because they have counter attack? And? Is that it?

I will admit that I was a little confused when I first read the list until the numbers started lining up. It is hilarious how insane that Detachment can get. And they haven't even gotten to the Elites yet. One could actually field the Blood Angels Parking Lot pretty easy with that list.

I think it is crap that the Assault Squads can't get Razorbacks at a discount anymore.

 th3maninblak wrote:
First off, the fact that this is the flesh tearers strike force isn't painfully obvious to you Martel really makes me doubt you as such a "pro" player. And how are wolves better in pods? Because they have counter attack? And? Is that it?

I never use it, and have only seen it a couple times; I don't even have the book for it. Counter attack is a huge component of SW drop lists. It's not as important as it used to be, but still. The BA chapter tactic being basically turned off by drop pods is not that hot, either. I'm not much of a pro, really, I've just played a lot of games against some people are are. There's no point in going to tourneys with mono-BA.

The melta ASM thing is not so great since melta got nerfed in 7th.

I can see from above I'm not the only one who feels this way.

 th3maninblak wrote:
First off, the fact that this is the flesh tearers strike force isn't painfully obvious to you Martel really makes me doubt you as such a "pro" player. And how are wolves better in pods? Because they have counter attack? And? Is that it?

Remembering the rules for a formation/detachment one doesn't use really isn't the proper measurement of his skills as a player.

Blood Angels are wasted in Pods since they want to get to CC. And preferably charge.

I've used suicide Melta Pods in my last two games. The results were pretty underwhelming. They managed to take off two HPs and destroy a Lascannon from a Land Raider after giving away the first blood.
In the second game they caused a Devilfish to Jink and stunned it.

I like BA with Pods, it's just that Assault Marines don't contribute enough. Furiosos, Sternguard and the like cost more but are far more efficent.

 soomemafia wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
First off, the fact that this is the flesh tearers strike force isn't painfully obvious to you Martel really makes me doubt you as such a "pro" player. And how are wolves better in pods? Because they have counter attack? And? Is that it?

Remembering the rules for a formation/detachment one doesn't use really isn't the proper measurement of his skills as a player.

Blood Angels are wasted in Pods since they want to get to CC. And preferably charge.

I've used suicide Melta Pods in my last two games. The results were pretty underwhelming. They managed to take off two HPs and destroy a Lascannon from a Land Raider after giving away the first blood.
In the second game they caused a Devilfish to Jink and stunned it.

I like BA with Pods, it's just that Assault Marines don't contribute enough. Furiosos, Sternguard and the like cost more but are far more efficent.

This is exactly what I have found as well. I'm not sure why so many people are ga-ga over three melta shots.

Martel732 wrote:

 soomemafia wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
First off, the fact that this is the flesh tearers strike force isn't painfully obvious to you Martel really makes me doubt you as such a "pro" player. And how are wolves better in pods? Because they have counter attack? And? Is that it?

Remembering the rules for a formation/detachment one doesn't use really isn't the proper measurement of his skills as a player.

Blood Angels are wasted in Pods since they want to get to CC. And preferably charge.

I've used suicide Melta Pods in my last two games. The results were pretty underwhelming. They managed to take off two HPs and destroy a Lascannon from a Land Raider after giving away the first blood.
In the second game they caused a Devilfish to Jink and stunned it.

I like BA with Pods, it's just that Assault Marines don't contribute enough. Furiosos, Sternguard and the like cost more but are far more efficent.

This is exactly what I have found as well. I'm not sure why so many people are ga-ga over three melta shots.

SW, UM, IF, Salamanders are all better in pods than BA. Not sure BA are better at anything those can do also. Probably the only thing BA does better than any other chapter is full mech - which I'm sure most of everyone agree - is not the best tactic.

My melta suicide pods perform rather well for me. I pretty much always have a roughly even number of flamer suicide pods and melta suicide pods, and in most games, I have my melta guys come in first due to the targets available.

On another issue, I put up a set of 3 ITC lists that are primary BA that I'm trying to pick between. I will be first in the BA ranking again as soon as I even show up to an event, but I want to put some distance between me and that Paul Boutin guy.

Lemme know what you think of the lists:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/647582.page

Yeah I don't see the appeal of the Tri-Melta drop pods. The best platfrom for Melta weapons in our Dex is attack bikes, in my opinion.

I'm considering ASM with dual plas in a rhino, I know they can only moved 6" and fire at full BS, but it's not a bad little ap2 platform.

D

I've had a mix bag with pods and my BA. it really depends on the opposing army. I've found vs other marine players they are ok but not always optimal. Vs orks, IG, eldar and daemons ive found them to be really good loads with flamers.

I play vs marines (mostly SW, GK or Salas) 70% of the time so recently have backed away from pods in favour of jump pack troops (mainly DC) or bikes with fast vehicle support. as people have said mobility is key these days.

sometimes still run dreads in pods but unless is a fragnought I tend to play it tactical and head off advances with them to ensure i get the charge or I change there game plan.

Must say still loving my BA far more than my SW, IG or GK. they just feel more rewarding. that and I have bromance with mephiston whos always voted mvp in games atm.

I've converted my BA mech army into a drop pod hybrid army with the new codex. I run it as a Flesh Tearer army with the extra FA slots. I pod in 2 Fragnoughts, a Culuxus assassin and two 8-man ASM squads. Mephiston is with one and a lv2 Libby with the other (or with Mephiston). The threat to assault is all over the place and I can usually assault what I need to with so many threats. The rest of the list is mech/msu shooting. I wish I could exchange the Libby with a furioso libby, but the points are never there..

dark_red wrote:
I've had a mix bag with pods and my BA. it really depends on the opposing army. I've found vs other marine players they are ok but not always optimal. Vs orks, IG, eldar and daemons ive found them to be really good loads with flamers.

I play vs marines (mostly SW, GK or Salas) 70% of the time so recently have backed away from pods in favour of jump pack troops (mainly DC) or bikes with fast vehicle support. as people have said mobility is key these days.

sometimes still run dreads in pods but unless is a fragnought I tend to play it tactical and head off advances with them to ensure i get the charge or I change there game plan.

Must say still loving my BA far more than my SW, IG or GK. they just feel more rewarding. that and I have bromance with mephiston whos always voted mvp in games atm.

What if you didn't know to bring the flamers against Orks, etc. I think BA pods are really mediocre against unknown opponents.

Martel732 wrote:

dark_red wrote:
I've had a mix bag with pods and my BA. it really depends on the opposing army. I've found vs other marine players they are ok but not always optimal. Vs orks, IG, eldar and daemons ive found them to be really good loads with flamers.

I play vs marines (mostly SW, GK or Salas) 70% of the time so recently have backed away from pods in favour of jump pack troops (mainly DC) or bikes with fast vehicle support. as people have said mobility is key these days.

sometimes still run dreads in pods but unless is a fragnought I tend to play it tactical and head off advances with them to ensure i get the charge or I change there game plan.

Must say still loving my BA far more than my SW, IG or GK. they just feel more rewarding. that and I have bromance with mephiston whos always voted mvp in games atm.

What if you didn't know to bring the flamers against Orks, etc. I think BA pods are really mediocre against unknown opponents.

Thats why i don't often take them as i said.

Somehow I missed that.

Ok, here's a debate that has been going on at my FLGS for a while. Its pretty much settled that death company are best served with 1-2 power fists as their only close combat upgrades, as power swords seem superfluous when you have 5 str5 init5 attacks on the charge (most things will just die to a huge number of saves), but squad size is a different story. I've had success with both 2x10 death co with packs and 2 fists per squad, but also with 3x5 with packs and 1 fist per squad. Definitely having a hard time figuring out which is better.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Ok, here's a debate that has been going on at my FLGS for a while. Its pretty much settled that death company are best served with 1-2 power fists as their only close combat upgrades, as power swords seem superfluous when you have 5 str5 init5 attacks on the charge (most things will just die to a huge number of saves), but squad size is a different story. I've had success with both 2x10 death co with packs and 2 fists per squad, but also with 3x5 with packs and 1 fist per squad. Definitely having a hard time figuring out which is better.

The likely reality is that neither are better averaged across many games, but only situationally better. It likely comes down to available elite slots. My DC are usually led by a libby, so I want as many affected by blessing as possible. In a different list, I'm probably going to use 3 X 5 DC.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Ok, here's a debate that has been going on at my FLGS for a while. Its pretty much settled that death company are best served with 1-2 power fists as their only close combat upgrades, as power swords seem superfluous when you have 5 str5 init5 attacks on the charge (most things will just die to a huge number of saves), but squad size is a different story. I've had success with both 2x10 death co with packs and 2 fists per squad, but also with 3x5 with packs and 1 fist per squad. Definitely having a hard time figuring out which is better.

10 DC 2 fists with Astorath is brutal and my go 2 if DC is my focus for the game. I generally use this to take out or dent deathstars or at least the strongest threat to my army (TWC is their usual pray these days) I also run a smaller 5-6man with a fist just as a fast force to take out smaller threats like pods, bikes or just small annoyances. They really are a superb unit if utilised well and fairly cheap for the punch they offer.

I've also had a 2 good games using a Div based lib with them to try and get a 4++ but these were just in test games and not comp so maybe a little a inaccurate as my opponent both times had experimental lists which weren't great.

I've also played vs 3 6man (5+1pf) all with JP as my SW and it was a pain in the arse, they didn't hurt me massively but they pose a large enough threat i had to try and take them out, being quick moving and with a 3+ 5+++ they caused me some issues back field but id rather this than a large DC unit tooled up with HQ like astorath or a lib.

Personally, I like a sanguinius libby with DC. The libby will be nice and close because the DC get nice and close. The divination libby, usually Mephy, goes with Sternguard. Prescience + vengeance rounds is pretty good.

I run my DC (Baal strike force) 3x7 with a fist or hammer, and pod in my fragioso. Along with 2 tac squads with flamer/heavy flamer. And kitted out Sgts. It either buys the turn needed for my DC to get into the thick of it, or they hammer the DC only to kbiw the force of almost full tac squads


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, shout out to the sang guard w/ a priest. Great unit, great price.

Noone seems to remember Blood angels winning LVO.

 Lord Commissar wrote:
Noone seems to remember Blood angels winning LVO.

Was it mono-BA? Or did it have an allied gravstar?

Martel732 wrote:

 Lord Commissar wrote:
Noone seems to remember Blood angels winning LVO.

Was it mono-BA? Or did it have an allied gravstar?

Yeah it was Sentinels+BA. Blood Angels have a pretty awful win percentage/overall standing in the US. We're actually middle of the pack in Europe, though. Im interested to see what the meta difference is.

 Lord Commissar wrote:
Noone seems to remember Blood angels winning LVO.

Tyranids won the LVO. Second place went to Nick Rose

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/160JxptmjMIjf7LYT6AGspFAAzkf-7aRhGhaOenvX54Q/edit#gid=0

His Sentinels of Terra/Blood Angels:

Sentinels of Terra CAD

HQ: Lysander

Elites: Centurion Devastators X 3, Grav Amp/Grav Cannon X 3, Omniscope, Missile Launcher on Sergeant

Troops: Scouts X 10 w/Bolters, Combi-Grav on Sergeant

Troops: Scouts X 10 w/Bolters, Combi-Grav on Sergeant

Troops: Scouts X 10 w/Bolters

Heavy: 4 Devastators w/Lascannons, Sergeant

Heavy: 4 Devastators w/Lascannons, Sergeant

Heavy: Thunderfire Cannon


Flesh Tearers Strike Force CAD

HQ: Mephiston

HQ: Librarian, The Vertias Vitae, Auspex, Lvl 2 Psyker, Force Staff – Warlord

Elites: Command Squad, Melta Gun X 3, Drop Pod

Troops: 6 Scouts, Combi-Grav

FA: Drop Pod

FA: Drop Pod

That's a really bizarre list, I must admit.

The main reason he has BAs in the list is for the drop pods. We are a taxi service for better armies now, I imagine once the new SM codex is out, we'll be out as well.

Being the Taxis for the IoM does explain the Lamentors color scheme.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
The main reason he has BAs in the list is for the drop pods. We are a taxi service for better armies now, I imagine once the new SM codex is out, we'll be out as well.

Being the Taxis for the IoM does explain the Lamentors color scheme.

That's a very defeatist attitude. And the SM book will never out taxi us, because they can't take 6 fast attack pods like we can XD

Still trying to find some lists from a few of the major tournaments across the pond. BA fare far better over there, apparently.

It is debatable which one of us is more delusional about the BA codex's power level.

But by all means have pride in our taxi status.

I had some great luck fielding only BA at a recent tourney in Cincinnati (about 30 person). Smaller for sure than the bigger ones, however, there were several Adepticon finalists there as well which made it interesting.

Ran the following (1850):

Angel's Fury Spearhead Force

SR1: TL AC, TL MM, Hurricane Bolter Sponsons, Searchlight
SR2: TL AC, TL MM, Searchlight
SR3: TL AC, TL MM, Searchlight

Tac1: (10), Grav Gun, Sgt: CCW, bolt pistol
Tac2: (10), Heavy Flamer, Sgt: CCW, bolt pistol
Tac3: (10), Flamer, Sgt: CCW, bolt pistol

Baal Strike Force:

Chaplain: Auspex, JP

DC1: (6), PF
DC1: (6), PF

Scout1: (5), CCW, bolt pistol
Scout2: (5), CCW, bolt pistol

Dante


I had the luck of everything coming on (rerolls are awesome, and yes I know there is that chance they don't come on). From my understanding, the general consensus is that 1850 is too low for the Spearhead to work well, but after 8 games, I don't see a problem at all. This tourney was using Adepticon FAQ, so no DS and assault on turn 1. Generally, the SRs focused on knocking out vehicles turn 1 (including knights). Objectives were no problem, since due to combat squading, I could drop 5 man Tacs pretty much anywhere using Skies of Fury. If turn 2 looked ideal for assaulting, the DC with Dante and the Chaplain would be up field with the support from the SRs, and if necessary, went into hover to let out Tacs. Otherwise, I DS them elsewhere. There was a funny game where I dropped and kept everything in my back field while hiding when I faced a 4 knight list. The 3 SRs pretty much did all the work. Is the list above optimal? Probably not, definitely could be fine tuned some more.

I'm slowly working through the formations BA has available, but I'm leaning towards the notion that they can provide some immense buffs to the army to be competitive. I for one do not feel BA are handicapped at all or feel they are a disadvantaged army and have been having a blast trying new things every time I play. I was pretty happy taking third place in this tourney considering some of guys that were participating.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
It is debatable which one of us is more delusional about the BA codex's power level.

But by all means have pride in our taxi status.

The taxi comment was meant to be a joke. And I am not delusional about the codex's power level. I am well aware we are not top tier, and that we have performed rather poorly in the states as a main detachment. But as the European rankings showed (which had Eldar, Nids, and Orks at the top in that order, and Marines, BA, and Wolves in the middle in that order) showed, we are definitely not the worst codex either.

And if you notice a common trend in allied BA detachments, the other half of the reason to take BA is our psykers and sanguinary priests, so that's something.

Edit: I'm actually trying to find the website that had all this information so I can actually cite my source and not seem like I'm pulling information out of my a$$