Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 koooaei wrote:
Wow, seems like a good combo unless someone brings ranged S: D. Not that it's a super-duper all-game long protection but it definitely helps out on the first turn at least. Unfortunately, it's not so hard for the opponent to take down a bunch of av12 HP with just one round of shooting. I think, something like a group of broadsides + a little bit of something can handle it. Though, be careful cause it also offers protection for your opponent if he happens to be within 12'.

I would say the idea is it protects the tide the first turn so they are immune to small arms fire and even if the shields fall down they regenerate and are able to protect the Mek Gunz until your opponent gets within 12in range of those or continue to waste shots on the shields. The other issue is the vsg will protect the tide even from overwatch and once in combat you can consolidate without fear of the tide being shot. The other thing to remeber is the vsg is still a building with battlements providing av 13 with 4+ cover. You can also drop all the ammo runts and instead take an ammo dump (reroll all 1 to hit within 2in) or ammo store (any units in the building such as a single Mek gun crew) to reroll all 1s or reroll scatters for free. The ammo dump becomes an indestructible 5+ cover as well. The ammo dump will stay even if the vsg is destroyed however the ammo store is 5points cheaper. By taking the vsg w ammo store and placing a single or 2 Mek gun crew on the battlements he saves more points as well and can reroll all scatters from kustom mega kannnons Mek gunz for the entire unit.

In short, the VSG rocks!

There was 1 game where I used my Tau opponent's VSG to protect my Necron deathstar unit from his own shooting.

I tried running the Green Tide with a VSG a few months ago and found it to be pretty underwhelming. Of course it depends what's in the rest of your list as well as what your opponent has. In general I found that their heavy weapons (which aren't really that worth while for killing boys, just fire first and knock down the void shields, then their anti infantry starts clearing out the boys.

For your list in particular I think it could help somewhat with mitigating the alphastrike against vehicles, but I prob would prefer to see the points spent elsewhere as you already have.

VSGs are a little different for orks IME. I haven't faced GT with shields but the presence of so much infantry I would think means the shields just validate the opponents anti tank weaponry. Might save a wagon here n there..

The best way I've seen em used was actually with orks though. 4-5(?) units of lootas + massed grot bomms inside a void relay network.. aka thunderork dome. Boss or two and that FW dread with 4 templates performed counter assault duty. Send the lone koptas out at the end. Nasty.

I think in this case downgrading the gunwagons into big trakks gives him the points to purchase the vsg and makes his opponents now choose between firing his anti tank into his infsntry squads or his big trakks. Then he has the potential to waste anti tank shots at the greentide. Also it might protect his vehicles is he doesn't get to go first. And unless his opponent decides to shoot the av13 building the shields can regenerate and give his tide and or Mek gunz another save next turn. Either way good luck fxeni the hopes of all Orks rest upon you!!!

Can you do the same Congo line with a skyshield to get an invul save?

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Can you do the same Congo line with a skyshield to get an invul save?

Nope.

Wow, okay, yeah. Just got back from the game with VSG and Green Tide - and all I can say is that it WILL be finding a way inside my list.

I'll post the details of the game a bit later.

Uh oh....I kinda let the cat out of the bag. Oh well.

Good luck.

 jy2 wrote:
In short, the VSG rocks!

There was 1 game where I used my Tau opponent's VSG to protect my Necron deathstar unit from his own shooting.

I read that report. That was quite clever of you...

grendel083 wrote:

gungo wrote:
[Because It doesn't matter if it can't move as long as 1 Ork out of 103 in the unit is within 12in of the generator model which itself is up to 2ft on the board then the entire tide has an av13 regenerating shield vs shooting.

I think you're thinking of old rules. Purchased Fortifications are now deployed with your army, and must be wholly in your Deployment Zone.

jy2 wrote:I think you'll really like the VSG. The most important thing about it is that it will protect your boys from small-arms fire, which is what would kill them the most.

jy2 wrote:In short, the VSG rocks! There was 1 game where I used my Tau opponent's VSG to protect my Necron deathstar unit from his own shooting.

Fxeni wrote:Wow, okay, yeah. Just got back from the game with VSG and Green Tide - and all I can say is that it WILL be finding a way inside my list. I'll post the details of the game a bit later.

So I've checked over here in the UK. GW advised that as the VSG "is a terrain piece" then the void shield protection is similar to the cover save protection you'd get from regular terrain.

So we can't use the void shield to protect all 100+ ork boys in the tide (over here in the UK at least). Only the ones within the 12" will be protected. Which sucks because I REALLY liked this idea. Oh well...

Sketchyfk wrote:
So I've checked over here in the UK. GW advised that as the VSG "is a terrain piece" then the void shield protection is similar to the cover save protection you'd get from regular terrain.

So we can't use the void shield to protect all 100+ ork boys in the tide (over here in the UK at least). Only the ones within the 12" will be protected. Which sucks because I REALLY liked this idea. Oh well...

Where did you hear that?
Even in their own TOS tournaments I've never heard GW rule it like that.
It's certainly not what the rules say b

Game 3: 1850 Green Tide Vs. Eldar Wave Serpents w/ Lynx!

So, my opponent brought:

4x Wave Serpents
2x Bike Squads
2x Squads of Fire Dragons
2x Squads of Dire Avengers
Farseer on Bike
Warlock on Bike
Spiritseer

Skyshield
Lynx

LVO Mission 3(?):
Primary: Big Guns Never Tire
Secondary: Maelstrom
Tertiary: First Blood, Slay the Warlord, Linebreaker

A very alpha heavy build - I expect to see a lot of Lynx's (Lynxhii? Lynxhee? What's plural, here?) at the LVO. My opponent won the roll and decided to let me go first, hoping to take out objectives on the last turn.

I moved up pretty quick, and while I did basically nothing with my first turn shooting, my VSG nullified two Wave Serpents shooting! His Lynx was pretty underwhelming on my tide - he couldn't hit the Gun Wagons (they were out of LOS) and he tried taking some Artillery out, but they had cover saves that inhibited his shooting pretty well. He summoned some stuff to block me, and while that worked, it ended up giving me first blood.

Maelstrom was pretty even for most of the game (although he had a 1 pt lead most turns, give or take) up until about Turn 5. By that point, I had lost one squad of tankbustas, 1 artillery piece, some Boyz, and one Gun Wagon. I was basically able to charge everything on his board, and all he had left was 3 dire avengers on his backfield objective, a shaken Wave Serpent, his warlord sitting in a crater, and his flying Lynx. He went for the last turn steal, but was unable to knock enough boys off of objectives to take them back, and so as of turn 5, we tied on secondary while I won on Primary. That was the best he was gonna get, and we rolled turn 6 - resulting in tabling him.

The Green Tide with the VSG is BRUTAL. I was able to threaten nearly the entire board and my Grots lived through a good deal of shooting due to the VSG (along with the Tide). I'm confident this list has what it takes to perform at the LVO...the question is, do I?

End Score: VICTORY!
Orks 10 (Primary, Secondary, Slay the Warlord, Warlord, Linebreaker)
Eldar 0

And that's it folks! The next battle report you see from me will be from the LVO! Hope to see you all there, and best of luck!

 Waaagh 18 wrote:
I still think the Big Bosspole should be in your list. A 6+ cover save might save a couple models, but not dying to mob rule will save even more (especially with the weaker chart in the formation). The big bosspole could even be more valuable than the PK, as your Warboss should camp at the back anyway. The DLS Warboss should be your challenge guy, not your Fearless bestowing Warlord. Keep him out of challenge range and you should be fine.

I'm gonna hyper-second this. A non-fearless green tide could be the cause of some epic failing. And you have to take a warboss with access to it as part of the formation, so why not for 20 points? If you're worried about challenges, don't make the BB boss your warlord. The biggest and the best rule only applies to your warlord - if you make the GT as a detachment, and the bearer of DLS your warlord - problem solved.

Wait til you run up against an army that can out assault you... And they are out there .

 grendel083 wrote:

Sketchyfk wrote:
So I've checked over here in the UK. GW advised that as the VSG "is a terrain piece" then the void shield protection is similar to the cover save protection you'd get from regular terrain.

So we can't use the void shield to protect all 100+ ork boys in the tide (over here in the UK at least). Only the ones within the 12" will be protected. Which sucks because I REALLY liked this idea. Oh well...

Where did you hear that?
Even in their own TOS tournaments I've never heard GW rule it like that.
It's certainly not what the rules say b

I contacted the GW store in edinburgh. They don't have an offical rules hotline (which seems kinda bonkers, but hey what do you expect from a company called Games Workshop?

As someone else also said on a facebook page: think of it like the KFF. Only models within the radius of protection will get the protection. If they're outside, then they're ACTUALLY outside.

Realistically, when you think of it in terms of "real world physics" (if you can for a game like this) it does make sense. Anyone under an umbrella will be try from the rain. If you happen to be with someone who's not under the umbrella, they're gonna get wet. Maybe it will get faq'd, but as far as i can read, there's nothing in the rules that say protection conga lines work for KFFs/Cover Saves or Void Shield Zones :( If you can find text to state otherwise PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE show me. I honestly LOVE this idea.

Do Orks actually have "please" in their dictionary?

The difference between kff and void shield is the kff actually states model whereas the void shield states unit. The void shield even goes on to explain if your unit is within two void shields roll to see which void shield takes the hit. Thus further confirming a shooting atk can hit a void shield outside its range as long as the unit is within that void shield. The problem is with the word unit and not model bein used whereas the kff specifically states models.

I agree that's how it should work but that's not how it's worded nor how they explain it in its own rule clarifications.

technically, the only place the void shield states the unit, if when your firing at it and they are protected by more than one shield. It doesn't say anything about what's inside or outside it.

I imagine that it depends on where you play. GW in scotland are typically against "abusing" rules where possible.

They instead let the writers make broken rules like a 4+ reanimation protocol...

Sketchyfk wrote:
technically, the only place the void shield states the unit, if when your firing at it and they are protected by more than one shield. It doesn't say anything about what's inside or outside it.

I imagine that it depends on where you play. GW in scotland are typically against "abusing" rules where possible.

They instead let the writers make broken rules like a 4+ reanimation protocol...

Regardless the void shield should state model and it doesn't which I think is the main issue and why tournaments like LVO just allow it as it's written instead of trying to clarify what they think is intended. Then again every other major us tournament just bans the VSG instead of trying to decide what the intended rule would be. As in the above case I am sure fxeni would be using two or three void shields and the tide will be stretched across all three and into his opponents deployment zone and as per the rules he just needs to roll off to see which void shield takes the hits. I don't see how that can be interpreted any other way.

Remember the old kff worked the same way until the wording changed from unit to model and drastically reduced its effectiveness.

Sketchyfk wrote:
I contacted the GW store in edinburgh.

Unfortunately they have as much rules knowledge as you or I, and the same amount of authority outside their store (ie: none).
GW store staff aren't given any rules training or any greater insight.

I believe the rule says "targets within 12"" correct? Targets are always units, never models. That's where you get your "units within 12"" from.
And to determine if a unit is within 12" to measure nearest point to nearest point. See rules on targeting and measuring distances for reference.

It doesn't make sense that it can cover a model outside of 12" but that is the rules.

The KFF used to do the same thing last Codex, until they changed "units" to "models".

Are you absolutely, positively sure the LVO rules the vsg that way? It would be a shame for you to deploy your army and then get an off the cuff ruling against you when your opponent complains.

That's how it was used last year you can still read battle reports on it. I honestly forgot about it till I saw jy2 battle report. I don't own the super rare gw model or have a conversion and nearly every tournament bans it except LVO which allows all forgeworld, most superheavies and most individual terrain pieces. So in the realm of broken combos it's pretty tame. It's not super hard to knock off 2-3 av12 hullpoints but it does take a dedicated anti tank unit, which of exactly the unit you dont want to waste on a tide.

I truly believe this list will do well in LVO. There are not many terrain choke points in LVO even if someone has one of the few melee units to tie up a tide they still need to crack the shoelds to get to his support. Tasty taste and fxeni both have green tides I would like to see someone do well and let Orks represent.

Sweat not, guys, it's in the ITC FAQ. They have ruled that any unit with one or more models under it gets the protection.

So would the void shield protect your vehicles from the objuration mechanicum powers haywire attacks?

If Fxeni gives VSG the it must be good for the Boyz. I hope I get to play you. : )

Good luck round 1 vs those salamanders mass flamers and meltas doesn't sound so pleasant for the tide, but I am sure you will endure.

The good thing about this setup is even if you get burnt out playing a tide at LVO you can switch to your bullyboyz the rest of the year. I hope we get a speed freak supplement soon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

 Waaagh 18 wrote:
I still think the Big Bosspole should be in your list. A 6+ cover save might save a couple models, but not dying to mob rule will save even more (especially with the weaker chart in the formation). The big bosspole could even be more valuable than the PK, as your Warboss should camp at the back anyway. The DLS Warboss should be your challenge guy, not your Fearless bestowing Warlord. Keep him out of challenge range and you should be fine.

I'm gonna hyper-second this. A non-fearless green tide could be the cause of some epic failing. And you have to take a warboss with access to it as part of the formation, so why not for 20 points? If you're worried about challenges, don't make the BB boss your warlord. The biggest and the best rule only applies to your warlord - if you make the GT as a detachment, and the bearer of DLS your warlord - problem solved.

The greentide isn't terribly fast the main reason you make the greentide warboss a warlord is so you can waagh every turn and move, run, charge with rerolls every turn. Mob rules is less of an issue with the tide as well because you chose which models to remove instead of losing a powerklaw. It also has hammer of wrath which most people tend to forget as well so you want to charge every turn you can. This is why I wished they gave ghaskull he ability to call waaghhh every turn even if it made his invul only 4+. It would make the tide and mega armour Orks faster and be another form of fearless and give ghaz a bit more reliable survivability instead of being slightly over costed as he is. It would of also been so cool and fluffy seeing ghaz lead a greentide in a waagh.

 grendel083 wrote:

Sketchyfk wrote:
I contacted the GW store in edinburgh.

Unfortunately they have as much rules knowledge as you or I, and the same amount of authority outside their store (ie: none).
GW store staff aren't given any rules training or any greater insight.

I believe the rule says "targets within 12"" correct? Targets are always units, never models. That's where you get your "units within 12"" from.
And to determine if a unit is within 12" to measure nearest point to nearest point. See rules on targeting and measuring distances for reference.

It doesn't make sense that it can cover a model outside of 12" but that is the rules. The KFF used to do the same thing last Codex, until they changed "units" to "models".

I think that this is probably the best argument I've seen for it. IF i can convince my local to play it this way, then I will definitely use the VGS + GT combo. No doubt. To me, I ain't going to moan at anyone using it against me. I do think it'll be an easy case for people to whine at and say no to "because it's abusing the rules". But thank you for clarifying the difference between "target = unit" and "target doesn't = models", it does help a lot.

I'm guessing he goes 5-1 but whats fxeni at day 1? Also what does his final list look like?

Sketchyfk wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

Sketchyfk wrote:
I contacted the GW store in edinburgh.

Unfortunately they have as much rules knowledge as you or I, and the same amount of authority outside their store (ie: none).
GW store staff aren't given any rules training or any greater insight.

I believe the rule says "targets within 12"" correct? Targets are always units, never models. That's where you get your "units within 12"" from.
And to determine if a unit is within 12" to measure nearest point to nearest point. See rules on targeting and measuring distances for reference.

It doesn't make sense that it can cover a model outside of 12" but that is the rules. The KFF used to do the same thing last Codex, until they changed "units" to "models".

I think that this is probably the best argument I've seen for it. IF i can convince my local to play it this way, then I will definitely use the VGS + GT combo. No doubt. To me, I ain't going to moan at anyone using it against me. I do think it'll be an easy case for people to whine at and say no to "because it's abusing the rules". But thank you for clarifying the difference between "target = unit" and "target doesn't = models", it does help a lot.

If you need to convince someone of the rules, you need to show them the following:
First the "Choosing a Target" rule in the shooting sequence. It's the sentence in Bold - you target units. Even things like Precision shots target units, then allocate against specific models.
Second is "check range" in the Shooting Sequence and "Measuring Distances" in General Principles. Measuring ranges is closest point to closest point. Again you're measuring to a unit, not a model.

In Summary: "Targets with 12"" is the same as saying "units within 12"" as targets are always units.
Hope this helps, this isn't abusing rules, this is what they actually say

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Wait til you run up against an army that can out assault you... And they are out there .

I'm not sure on what can more or less reliably kill enough boyz in mellee other than superheavies/gargants lucky with stomps. Maybe just wraiths + lots of flayed ones assaulting from all dirctions. Tarpit - yes, but out-assault...

Would be interesting to find out, eh.