Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The ironic thing is that the basic, non subfaction marine book is the competitive one.

Absolutely for the merging of all Marine codices into one.. and before anyone accuses me of just 'wanting snowflake codices of my own', I'm quite happy running any Order out of the same Sororitas Codex, thank you, and my other armies have all the options they need already as well.

 Mr Morden wrote:



Is that the same "special snowflake subfaction" that means that minor differences between Codex organisation are blown and horribly bloated in order to justify new Codex's and models?

Nobody cares.

If you don't collect that army, you have no reason to complain. If you do, you should be grateful your army can now be far more varied and interesting than if it were in the vanilla book.

The fluff twisted and distorted to make them work with the retconned new models - wow that Space Wolf Sleigh is awesome.............not.

Bottom line is a fan of that Chapter will be open to new units. The fluff section in GW books isn't stellar anyway and the good stuff is recycled from the old days. GW also releases crappy looking models on a fairly-frequent basis, regardless of whether they're Marines. I'll direct you to the Taurox for instance.

Thousand times yes.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

There is no problem with split up Chapter Codexes other than people bitching about their special-snowflake-cookie-cutter subfaction not getting such treatment, so everyone else should be shafted too

Man, I wish I had the ability to read minds and state these universal truths. It must be nice for you just know exactly what everyone is thinking all the time.

People need to suck it up and understand this is the way its going to stay.

I don't think anyone is assuming otherwise. This is a theoretical question. On a forum. Where people discuss things.

/thread

So edgy.

You failed to complete the reading of one sentence that entirely collapses your first objection. Key word is "or."

Second objection: this question pops up frequently and just gets people sore and elitist over their toy soldiers. People should by all means continue to discuss it if they want but I reserve my right to laugh at them for getting emotionally overinvested in it.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:



Is that the same "special snowflake subfaction" that means that minor differences between Codex organisation are blown and horribly bloated in order to justify new Codex's and models?

Nobody cares.

If you don't collect that army, you have no reason to complain. If you do, you should be grateful your army can now be far more varied and interesting than if it were in the vanilla book.

The fluff twisted and distorted to make them work with the retconned new models - wow that Space Wolf Sleigh is awesome.............not.

Bottom line is a fan of that Chapter will be open to new units. The fluff section in GW books isn't stellar anyway and the good stuff is recycled from the old days. GW also releases crappy looking models on a fairly-frequent basis, regardless of whether they're Marines. I'll direct you to the Taurox for instance.

Oh do I love the Santa Sleigh for my Wolves nope - so your saying I should be grateful for crap like that - jeez
Oh do I love the Taurox for my Guard - nope - its awful

Wow guess we should be grateful that GW allows us to spend money with them - guess you like it as is then and everything is perfect - weird........ Guess your just Trolling this thread for no real reason since your so grounded in reality and such.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

You failed to complete the reading of one sentence that entirely collapses your first objection. Key word is "or."

Maybe you don't know what or means? That sentence had two different ideas/claims. The first is the one I'm taking objection to, the second I'm not.

No one was bitching, and no one thinks everyone should get shafted because their faction of choice doesn't have 6 minor variations.

My reading comprehension is fine, perhaps your argumentation needs work.

Mr.Omega wrote:

you should be grateful your army can now be far more varied and interesting than if it were in the vanilla book.

But there's nothing to say that everything in the current books (and I mean everything, from fluff and units to Traits and Relics) couldn't be in a much larger, consolidated book. It would have no drawback whatsoever, but have the bonus of all crossover units being updated at the same time, multi-chapter players only needed one book, things that should be available to all Chapters (TFC, generic fliers, LSS ect) would be.

I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting that all Chapters be condensed into the book the size of a single Codex, just that they all be put in one larger book, a compendium if you like, for ease of access and consistency.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

You failed to complete the reading of one sentence that entirely collapses your first objection. Key word is "or."

Maybe you don't know what or means? That sentence had two different ideas/claims. The first is the one I'm taking objection to, the second I'm not.

No one was bitching, and no one thinks everyone should get shafted because their faction of choice doesn't have 6 minor variations.

My reading comprehension is fine, perhaps your argumentation needs work.

read minds and state these universal truths.

This gives the implication that you think in this first point I am stating a universal truth. Firstly, I was yes exaggerating for effect with the sense of "ultimately" in there and secondly, I cannot be stating it is a universal truth because an alternate idea is literally separated by one word. Or. I don't have to write a disclaimer for why I didn't say and/or, because I'm assuming the people I talk to are intelligent enough to come to that conclusion.

The bitching isn't overt and if it isn't in the thread yet it will be. And I frequently see people expect things like Catachan or Steel Legion or Deathwatch or whatever dexes.

 Paradigm wrote:

Mr.Omega wrote:

you should be grateful your army can now be far more varied and interesting than if it were in the vanilla book.

But there's nothing to say that everything in the current books (and I mean everything, from fluff and units to Traits and Relics) couldn't be in a much larger, consolidated book. It would have no drawback whatsoever, but have the bonus of all crossover units being updated at the same time, multi-chapter players only needed one book, things that should be available to all Chapters (TFC, generic fliers, LSS ect) would be.

I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting that all Chapters be condensed into the book the size of a single Codex, just that they all be put in one larger book, a compendium if you like, for ease of access and consistency.

The problem is that GW can't be trusted to put the stuff back in the main book and keep the Chapter A) playable and B) as unique and flavourful as it was.

See Black Templars, and how they're now entirely terrible with insignificant differences to other Chapters, and those differences are mostly drawbacks.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

This gives the implication that you think in this first point I am stating a universal truth.

I'm mocking the tone, not that I actually believe it is one, or that you think it is.

Firstly, I was yes exaggerating for effect with the sense of "ultimately" in there and secondly, I cannot be stating it is a universal truth because an alternate idea is literally separated by one word. Or. I don't have to write a disclaimer for why I didn't say and/or, because I'm assuming the people I talk to are intelligent enough to come to that conclusion.

I know you were exaggerating for effect. It doesn't make it any less useless and antagonizing. You claim there is bitching, despite there being none, but what you write invites that into the conversation, acting as a self-fulfilling prophecy.

You don't need a disclaimer at all if what you wrote wasn't unnecessarily abrasive. If you were to drop that entire first segment prior to the or, your point would remain unchanged and keep the conversation light, rather than insulting.

The bitching isn't overt and if it isn't in the thread yet it will be. And I frequently see people expect things like Catachan or Steel Legion or Deathwatch or whatever dexes.

Bitching by who? In most of these threads, I've found most of the bitching to come from marine players who bristle at the thought.

And yes, there are plenty of people who would like codices for their sub factions. There also people who would hate to see that. This discussion is about sharing your idea on whether or not you'd like that, and discussing the merits of the current system and a theoretical combined book.

For what its worth, your second clause after the or I generally agree with. Figured I'd mention that in the spirit of friendship and rainbows and what-not.

DA would be the easiest to roll in and should be. But I think that is it.

No. With GW's stupid business model rolling all of the Codices into one will only make everyone pay more money for rules they don't need. This game is already too expensive to get into. Why make it more so?

I'd say more like two books. A main codex that has all of the generic space marine rules, units and fluff. Then a second book devoted to special chapters. This book would have 10 - 12 pages devoted to the fluff and special units and rules for the top ten or so non astartes chapters.

One Marine Codex (which also includes CSM and GK) and then make supplements with the special things.

This would keep everything how it is except force you marine players to pay double the price!

The main thing I'd be worried about is losing all of my DA special rules. All of the codex marines seem to get 1 or 2 units that are unique, or just get the same units with different rules. If they push DA in, who have different rules for almost everything but their scouts, they'll probably lose a lot of stuff.

Right now my bikes have different rules, I have unique bikes, my terminators have unique rules, I have unique terminators.... they'd probably just say I get stubborn as chapter tactics and call it a day. As much as I hate them I have unique flyers. I have unique speeders. I'd probably lose my venerable land raiders. I'm just worried they'd pick one thing I have special and then fit the rest in as standard stuff.

And if I do get to keep my own rules, I'd probably be required to buy the base marine codex AND a dark angels supplement anyways, when I'd rather just have a single book I can buy.

I'm not philosophically opposed to fewer physical books, but I am opposed to fewer factions. Since there are distinct models for each faction, I wouldn't want to see any of them go.

For example, I wouldn't mind seeing 1 Codex with all non-vanilla factions, that was updated once a year -- as long as there was a separate section inside for BA, DA, GK, SW. It would be the same revenue (or more) for GW, since those 4 books are updated every 4+ years anyhow.

And, saying, for example, that Furioso, Ironclad, Ven Dred, etc. are "the same" is just not true. They are as similar to each other as Dark Eldar Reavers, Eldar Jetbikes, and Harlequin Starweavers.

I am not a fan of the Supplement system, as it simply leads to too many books. I'd rather they re-release the main book more frequently, and add a few pages -- or at maybe, give the option of either buying a "New" full price faction book, or a half-price supplement book.

I'm for the idea if it's done right. Forgeworld has proven, with the Legion list, that it is possible to create a single master army list, but still have great variety in play styles with a few faction specific rules, units, and wargear added on top.

I just don't trust the Games Workshop design team to get it right.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
I'm for the idea if it's done right. Forgeworld has proven, with the Legion list, that it is possible to create a single master army list, but still have great variety in play styles with a few faction specific rules, units, and wargear added on top.

I just don't trust the Games Workshop design team to get it right.

Yeah if they did it like the FW list it would be great. Even if, like suggested, it was two books, one with the main list, and one with the chaoter specific stuff, like the FW red books are.

 Formosa wrote:
gw consistently screws up dark angels, if they are part of the main codex
a. I won't have to wait nearly a decade for the next one
b. A supplement would easily cover the main dark Angel units and unique rules

That good enough reason for me

I thought this when it was suggested BT would be rolled into the main codex. I've been disappointed so far...

Absolutely not...

Not only would it destroy most, if not all of the flavour of the other 'big 4' chapters, but there would be no chance in hell of ever properly balancing the thing.
In the end, anyone who plays the non-Vanilla Chapters would be unfairly punished just to please a vocal minority, while the power gamers would simply have a field day trolling opponents with a broken as **** pile of gak.

I don't see how the chapters being spread through different books makes it any more likely to be balanced.

Depends. Do 4e-style appendixes for all nine First Founding Chapters and the BT detailing one or two unique units for each and any Special Characters, make sure all the options available are still there instead of getting dumped (mixed melee/ranged Terminator loadouts, dual-special and melee Tactical squads, that kind of thing), and stick it all in one book instead of a book and nine supplements, and I'd be fine with it.

(In short: Organize it just like the 30k Legions list and you're good)

Fair points on GW inevitably mucking up such a combined codex, but its not like the current ones are a beacon of balance, both internally or compared to one another. DA wallow in the pits of despair, while Vanilla marines roll around with bikes and cent-stars laughing their way to victory.

Balance issues aside, I don't think much flavour would be lost. As a Salamander fan boy myself, I don't feel that Sallies are 'vanilla', or lacking in flavour. There's a great fluffy CT and a bitchin' character, and plenty of fluff and additional material through FW surrounding the chapter without going full WolfWolfWolfWargear.

I've made this argument before, but I feel like a lot of people equate lots of special rules and minor wargear differences constitute flavour, when I feel that flavour is more of how you portray the fluff on the tabletop through bigger picture stuff. A Salamander player doesn't need a Dragon Hammer wargear for their terminators in order to model some cool drake themed hammers. They also don't need a specific entry for Firedrake Terminators in order to represent them on the tabletop. The same would apply to the Deathwing or Ravenwing. A paint job, some cool modelling, and playing to the fluff with wargear selection will do infinitely more for flavour than a rule entry stating your boltguns are slightly better, or restrictions on what you can and can't take in the army.

Outside of Unbound, a big book of marine would also spread all the units that really should be available to all marine armies; librarian dreads spring immediately to mind. Sanguinary priests are just slightly different apothecaries, and it would be fluffy and cool for every marine faction to have access to apothecaries. It would also make a lot of sense for all marines to share the same vehicle pool.

Really, the biggest loss (in a perfect world where the rules are written by competent designers) would be culling a number of characters from each book. Reasonably, I'd give all the loyalist chapters 1-3 characters, and 1-2 special/unique units only their CT could unlock.

The FW HH army list is proof of concept this idea can work, and work incredibly well. Admittedly, it would work best if the rules were sold separately and a specific chapter fluff book could be bought independently.

I will admit freely though that I strongly disagree with the idea of releasing specific vehicles (nephilim, the space wolf shoe box) only available to specific chapters. There is precedence for a chapter losing their sole claim to a vehicle though.

I guess there are differing concepts of flavour, but I feel that WolfWolfyCanusLupusWolferson Murder Murder isn't so much flavour as it is comic relief. Its why I would dread a Codex: Salamanders. The whole thing would be Drake This, and Drake That, and MagmaDrake Cavalry. Eugh.

Well, it was managed I thought rather well in CSM 3rd editon 1st codex. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Codex:_Chaos_Space_Marines_(3rd_Edition,_1st_Codex)
If they can do it once, they can manage it with Space Marines.
If you think of all the same equipment being listed again and again, the unique stuff would not be that hard to account for.
They like to supplement so it will be easy to make these books a little more unique and more exciting than a full codex.
I figure it is a big win for customer and GW.

 Blacksails wrote:
The same would apply to the Deathwing or Ravenwing. A paint job, some cool modelling, and playing to the fluff with wargear selection will do infinitely more for flavour than a rule entry stating your boltguns are slightly better, or restrictions on what you can and can't take in the army.

On a shelf, yes, my terminators look very Deathwing, kitted up with all their robes and pendents and whatnot. But on the tableop, they would not feel like they fit the fluff if they're just crappy normal terminators. We're the best of the best. We all show up at the same time, shooting who we want, when we want, where we want. We're fearless, and we beat the feth out of chaos marines. Take away these rules, and they're a bunch of smurfs in costumes, pretending to be real terminators, wishing they were deathwing. What's the point of painting them up to be different if they're the same as everyone else?

 Blacksails wrote:
Fair points on GW inevitably mucking up such a combined codex, but its not like the current ones are a beacon of balance, both internally or compared to one another. DA wallow in the pits of despair, while Vanilla marines roll around with bikes and cent-stars laughing their way to victory.

Balance issues aside, I don't think much flavour would be lost. As a Salamander fan boy myself, I don't feel that Sallies are 'vanilla', or lacking in flavour. There's a great fluffy CT and a bitchin' character, and plenty of fluff and additional material through FW surrounding the chapter without going full WolfWolfWolfWargear.

I've made this argument before, but I feel like a lot of people equate lots of special rules and minor wargear differences constitute flavour, when I feel that flavour is more of how you portray the fluff on the tabletop through bigger picture stuff. A Salamander player doesn't need a Dragon Hammer wargear for their terminators in order to model some cool drake themed hammers. They also don't need a specific entry for Firedrake Terminators in order to represent them on the tabletop. The same would apply to the Deathwing or Ravenwing. A paint job, some cool modelling, and playing to the fluff with wargear selection will do infinitely more for flavour than a rule entry stating your boltguns are slightly better, or restrictions on what you can and can't take in the army.

Outside of Unbound, a big book of marine would also spread all the units that really should be available to all marine armies; librarian dreads spring immediately to mind. Sanguinary priests are just slightly different apothecaries, and it would be fluffy and cool for every marine faction to have access to apothecaries. It would also make a lot of sense for all marines to share the same vehicle pool.

Really, the biggest loss (in a perfect world where the rules are written by competent designers) would be culling a number of characters from each book. Reasonably, I'd give all the loyalist chapters 1-3 characters, and 1-2 special/unique units only their CT could unlock.

The FW HH army list is proof of concept this idea can work, and work incredibly well. Admittedly, it would work best if the rules were sold separately and a specific chapter fluff book could be bought independently.

I will admit freely though that I strongly disagree with the idea of releasing specific vehicles (nephilim, the space wolf shoe box) only available to specific chapters. There is precedence for a chapter losing their sole claim to a vehicle though.

I guess there are differing concepts of flavour, but I feel that WolfWolfyCanusLupusWolferson Murder Murder isn't so much flavour as it is comic relief. Its why I would dread a Codex: Salamanders. The whole thing would be Drake This, and Drake That, and MagmaDrake Cavalry. Eugh.

I think in a merged codex, it would be only a few weeks before counts-as magma drake cavalry appeared. And, you know that doesn't mean only Thunderwolves, it could mean any silly thing.

You can observe with the different marks of chaos that any time you try to have choice in, to extend a metaphor, "seasoning," you will have problems. It is not a qu soon of balance, because economics or game theory can tell you there will be one or two clear leaders, a much larger group that is so bad it had might as well not exist, and a few choices that are ok but not great.

People may like to be fluffy, but they are also fond enough of their chosen armies that they want to make a decent showing, even if it means fielding nine Salamanders land speeders or a blue Vulkan He'stan.

Maybe you can say that the super-codex won't have Thunderwolves, and they can be somehow siloed from the main list, like a signature unit or a dataslate. However, I think you should consider why Thunderwolves came about as "flavor." It wasn't to make the space wolves distinct from the Dark Angels. Those two are unmistakable. It was to make them distinct from the generic marine codex.

I think what you have to do is throw out the generic codex. There are going to be a coue of different marine codexes, it would be dumb for there not to be. You have to get rid of the useless one. Salamanders can roll into one of the other books. Ultramarines honestly I think should become part of a Black Templar book.

I'd be for it.

Honestly, the meat of the "unique" rules for each codex can fit in a couple pages each, maybe a couple more for characters. The vast majority of it is stuff like turret/weapon swaps, wargear option differences, FoC swaps, etc.

Sub-factions like Space Wolves and whatnot have never really required their own book, and really should be the realm of Forgeworld or "Supplement" books (as opposed to tripe like Sentinels of Terra, Crimson Slaughter, or Champions of Fenris which are sub-factions of sub-factions...) as opposed to fully fledged releases on their own.


A lot of people opposed to such an amalgamation are far too wedded to specifics of these factions, specifics that can and do change with each iteration anyway (and sometimes are gained and lost with each iteration), and there's no reason relevant uniqueness couldn't all easily be generally handled in a combined book.


The core of the fluff for each marine section in the same and they all share 80%+ of the same fluff, units, wargear, etc. Also, given how poorly the background has been treated the last few years and in most of these Chapter specific books, along with how sparse stuff is in the 7E books anyway, it's difficult to see where a collection into one book is going to hurt anything.


Given that we're already paying $50 for books that were $20 seven years ago, when other companies have been doing fullcolor hardback books with twice the pagecount or more for years, it might actually make a GW codex worth the price.

And here we are again.

In order to have as much content as all the marine books put together, you're going to need to have a book that's nearly as long as all the marine books put together. You can do a tiny amount of consolidation (like not repeating the stat lines), but you're not going to have very much.

And so we have another thread asking if marine players should spend $250 for a super-codex and all the non-marine players saying yes and all the marine players saying no.

Again.

I'm all for it. Personally, I don't see any problems with it as long as the equipment and rules are maintained. We're not mixing Necrons with Chaos space marines, and to an extent, I see it already done with the SM codex as is. So, I don't understand why people feel that copying and pasting the DA, SW, and BA books into ONE book it would somehow make their army less unique.
Frankly, I think it makes more sense that certain traits become chapter tactics. I'd even considered making this space marine master dex if it wasn't for the fact that I wouldn't be able to post it without being CaD letter from GW threatening to sue me to kingdom come.

For, on one condition. All the SM get rolled in (DA, BA, SW, GK) or at least all the chapters and GK into an Inquisition book. Also, this would be assuming DA still get the same treatment as SM, as GW seems to like to screw the DA.

I really think it should be an all or nothing deal. I dont think SW or BA have enough unique units for the DA to be rolled in, but them not. I feel the same about GK, I think with a supplement or two they could also be rolled in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ailaros wrote:
And here we are again.

In order to have as much content as all the marine books put together, you're going to need to have a book that's nearly as long as all the marine books put together. You can do a tiny amount of consolidation (like not repeating the stat lines), but you're not going to have very much.

And so we have another thread asking if marine players should spend $250 for a super-codex and all the non-marine players saying yes and all the marine players saying no.

Again.

Part of that could be trimmed by cutting out a lot of the regular weapon profiles (Bolters, Krak grenades) that are already in the BRB. I agree, the SM book would still be massive, but if meant that DA were actually good, I'd be for it.

Edit: I should also add, I doubt this will ever happen. GW makes too much off keeping DA, SW, and BA separate in terms of models and codices.