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Context for the question. You and said Primarch are facing each other on the battlefield. Neither of you know the composition of each other's forces. Knowing only what you know about the Primarch, who would you want to go up against, knowing that losing would result in your death? Whose presence on the field as commander would give you the greatest chance of victory simply by being the commanding general?

I think I would have to go for Leman Russ, he's just an attack dog with a legion behind him and although he does have military training and know how to lead I can imagine that he would be easily led into a trap.

Rogal Dorn. He sees an obvious trap and just goes, "Yup, gonna just walk right in".

Ferrus, he was foolhardy and that led to his swift head loss

Yup, all three above would have been the obvious choices for me. I went with Ferrus Manus though, after reading about how Vulkan and Corax decided to abandon him as he decided to charge Fulgrim on Istvaan V.

Definitely Dorn, his stubbornness and pride makes him easy to fall into a trap. I would say Guilliman, but his fights against the Alpha Legion prove that he is not always so predictable.

I don't think anyone could seriously call Guilliman a bad general...

Probably Ferrus. He messed up on Istvaan V, big time stylee. I dunno though they're all pretty good in their own way, there isn't really a loyalist version of Curze or Angron.

 ImAGeek wrote:
I don't think anyone could seriously call Guilliman a bad general...

Probably Ferrus. He messed up on Istvaan V, big time stylee. I dunno though they're all pretty good in their own way, there isn't really a loyalist version of Curze or Angron.

People think about that paragraph that states that he's more of a logistician than a General, Which doesn't necessarily mean he's a bad General.

Which paragraph is that? And surely logistics are a big part of being a good general?

Honestly, I'm looking at them all and it's ahrd to judge any of em poorly as all where widely sucessful. as such I voted Ferrus Mannus. he's notable in that he allowed his rage etc to get the better of him and ended up dead.

"going stupid and getting yourself killed" is a pretty unique distinction among the primarchs

Very dependent on the situation. The honest answer is 'none' but they all have their weaknesses. If I had to pick three that I'd most want to face if I had to face any of them:

Ferrus Manus is headstrong and sometimes doesn't spot things (not just at Istvaan; he didn't spot the Diasporax' weakness until Fulgrim dangled it under his nose). However, he is relentless and will not quit. Yes, it's easy to make him angry, but "oh, look, I've made the Gorgon angry" is not necessarily something to celebrate.

By comparison, the Lion's weakness is his people skills. If the war is a chess game, or a sword duel, with known participants, limits and rules, he will win. As a pure theoretical strategist, he's the best in the Imperium. His weakness is everything outside that; if he doesn't know he's facing an enemy until things start exploding, or he thinks someone is friendly when they aren't, he can be badly at a disadvantage. He can't judge people and that's bit him several times.

Finally, Vulkan. He's a superb warrior and a competent strategist, but his weakness is his compassion. Sanguinius and Corax are the same, but they are talented at things like rapid manouvre, covert ops and orbital insertions; Vulkan is portrayed as much more of an endurance fighter little given to subtlety and shennanigans. This leaves him less in a position to do something cunning if I'm ensconced in a populated civilian area, and unlike other primarchs he's much less prepared to inflict collateral casualties amongst innocents.

Dorn embodied the human quest for truth, and could never tell a lie, even if it would have aided his cause.

Dorn.

Hell, if you're fighting Dorn, you could just send him a message asking him about his battle-plan. He would tell you the truth.

 PastelAvenger wrote:
I think I would have to go for Leman Russ, he's just an attack dog with a legion behind him and although he does have military training and know how to lead I can imagine that he would be easily led into a trap.

Angron didn't see the one Russ set out for him coming though

Khonsu wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I don't think anyone could seriously call Guilliman a bad general...

Probably Ferrus. He messed up on Istvaan V, big time stylee. I dunno though they're all pretty good in their own way, there isn't really a loyalist version of Curze or Angron.

People think about that paragraph that states that he's more of a logistician than a General, Which doesn't necessarily mean he's a bad General.

In Vengeful Spirit Horus reflects that no one knew war like Ferrus and that if Fulgrim had managed to bring him to their side the war would have already be won. I found it one of the most interesting parts in the book.

Ferrus downfall is he is hot - headed and rash which could definitely be used to work against him. Well, it did after all, he got a head of himself BOOM BOOM!

Wonderwolf wrote:

Dorn embodied the human quest for truth, and could never tell a lie, even if it would have aided his cause.

Dorn.

Hell, if you're fighting Dorn, you could just send him a message asking him about his battle-plan. He would tell you the truth.

Spoiler:

except Dorn HAS shown he can at the very LEAST lie by omission.

According to fluff Dorn was maybe the best strategic general of the Primarches. And not telling lies doesn't mean he will phone you his battle-plans. Last I checked you have the option of refusing to talk to someone instead of lying to them.

Russ easily. As plans go, bumrushing into melee is almost always a bad idea.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Russ easily. As plans go, bumrushing into melee is almost always a bad idea.

Russ at one point out-generaled Angron, but then again thats not a huge achievement.

Wasn't part of Russes thing that the whole dullard attack dog concept is just a takeout. And like a wolf he'll stand out in the open saying 'come get me bro' distracting the target rom seeing the rest of the pack surrounding them...

I voted Dorn at first, but honestly, after giving it more than 2 seconds of thought I remembered Russ exists.

So, Russ.

Pick Russ and you will get your ass handed to you faster than you can say "woof".

He might have a appeared as a savage berserk, but he didn't end up bested only by Horus and Johnson in number of victories during the Crusades by just rushing in.
He was a barbarian, but that does not mean he was stupid or even remotely incompetent. Behind that veneer is a ruthless intellect.

Nor was he the one the Emperor turned to when we wanted another Legion to be taken down a notch because he just rushes in.

The number of people picking Dorn is truly baffling. It is one of those rare bits of consistency that he was one the greatest defensive mind in the Imperium and one of the best pure generals of the Primarchs.

Falling into Peterbo's trap was due to anguish, hate, and guilt, not some failure in generalship. He had a suicide complex.

Bran Dawri wrote:
Pick Russ and you will get your ass handed to you faster than you can say "woof".

He might have a appeared as a savage berserk, but he didn't end up bested only by Horus and Johnson in number of victories during the Crusades by just rushing in.
He was a barbarian, but that does not mean he was stupid or even remotely incompetent. Behind that veneer is a ruthless intellect.

Nor was he the one the Emperor turned to when we wanted another Legion to be taken down a notch because he just rushes in.

In "Prospero burns", a SW said that other legions see them as barbarians, and they don't mind because when the time comes, it will be easier to kick their ass because the other legions will underestimate they capabilities.

 PhillyT wrote:
The number of people picking Dorn is truly baffling. It is one of those rare bits of consistency that he was one the greatest defensive mind in the Imperium and one of the best pure generals of the Primarchs.

Falling into Peterbo's trap was due to anguish, hate, and guilt, not some failure in generalship. He had a suicide complex.

Yeahhhh but losing your head like that and trying to get yourself and most of your legion killed for no reason isn't exactly the mark of a good general is it. That one time you mess up that badly kinda ruins your reputation... 'He's a really really good guy except for that one time he went on a killing spree...'

Taking the single time a guy cracks after hearing the last spoken words of your god/father isn't exactly fair. And in the process of going on his journey of self flagulation, he wrecked some serious havoc on the traitors as they fled. He was caught in a trap by the guy likely to come out as the best pure general of the traitors, Peterbo. Not sure how that makes Russ the worst. He still managed to crack it and survive.

Dorn is unquestioningly one of the greatest generals in the Imperium and the most potent in a defensive setting. He shouldn't even come up.

Why isn't it fair? Everybody lost their father, and they didn't all go off the rails like Dorn did. Yeah he found the bodies but they all felt the same loss.

I'm not saying he's the worst btw, just playing devils advocate.

Assuming all Primarches are created equally and there was some sort of RPG stats allocation system for them...

I do think Dorn would be the 'easiest' to deal with. Yeah, sure, he's got the most stat points in 'Fortification Construction' and a fair chunk of points in 'Galactic Warfare administration'. Neither of which would really help you in a meeting engagement style army punchup.

Conversely, of course, Perturabo would have the most stat points in 'Fortification Demolition'.

Except of course he is repeatedly named the best at one of the two main phases of generalship. The traitors weren't able to deal with him.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Why isn't it fair? Everybody lost their father, and they didn't all go off the rails like Dorn did. Yeah he found the bodies but they all felt the same loss.

I'm not saying he's the worst btw, just playing devils advocate.

They weren't present, which is why he felt the loss greater than the others. He is also being described as so loyal it was a major flaw of his character. The Iron Cage happened as the Imperial Fists were fully willing to pay any price even the price of a Primarch to eliminate the Iron Warriors. I don't think the Iron Cage was that bad a decision but I'm a known mark of the Imperial Fists and Dorn so I might not be completely objective in this matter.

Bran Dawri wrote:
Pick Russ and you will get your ass handed to you faster than you can say "woof".

He might have a appeared as a savage berserk, but he didn't end up bested only by Horus and Johnson in number of victories during the Crusades by just rushing in.
He was a barbarian, but that does not mean he was stupid or even remotely incompetent. Behind that veneer is a ruthless intellect.

Nor was he the one the Emperor turned to when we wanted another Legion to be taken down a notch because he just rushes in.

Guilliman is stated as being second only to Horus, or perhaps even his general when it comes to compliances and victories.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Why isn't it fair? Everybody lost their father, and they didn't all go off the rails like Dorn did. Yeah he found the bodies but they all felt the same loss.

I'm not saying he's the worst btw, just playing devils advocate.

They weren't present, which is why he felt the loss greater than the others. He is also being described as so loyal it was a major flaw of his character. The Iron Cage happened as the Imperial Fists were fully willing to pay any price even the price of a Primarch to eliminate the Iron Warriors. I don't think the Iron Cage was that bad a decision but I'm a known mark of the Imperial Fists and Dorn so I might not be completely objective in this matter.

Dorn was pissed off about being overruled by Guilliman on the founding of the chapters, and hated Perturabo. He let his emotions and hatred blind his vision and got the majority of his legion killed, and gained nothing. Well, unless allowing Perturabo to ascend to demi-godhood and being impossible to permenantly kill is a 'gain' in his book.

I voted for Ferrus Manus, seeing as his greatest contribution to 40k history was getting his head cut off. He charged in, unsupported, against a numerically superior foe, challenged a better duelist to a duel, and lost his head. Well played Ferrus, well played. Make him angry, and he'll run in an die.

 PastelAvenger wrote:
I think I would have to go for Leman Russ, he's just an attack dog with a legion behind him and although he does have military training and know how to lead I can imagine that he would be easily led into a trap.

Isn't this ignoring that Space Wolves were regarded as some of the most cunning strategists and that Russ, with nary an effort, outmaneuvered Angron as an object lesson?

While he's no Perturabo, Russ had a cunning all his own. Were I to doubt any Primarch, it may be Corax. Everything was too small scale for him.