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 j31c3n wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
It's proably basicly "Space SunTzu's art of war"

That's pretty much exactly what it is.

yup, and I've read the art of war, but I'd still get my ass kicked by an experianced general even if I memorized the damned thing.

BrianDavion wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
It's proably basicly "Space SunTzu's art of war"

That's pretty much exactly what it is.

yup, and I've read the art of war, but I'd still get my ass kicked by an experienced general even if I memorized the damned thing.

"Tactics are for amateurs, professionals study logistics."

As a Space Wolves player I have to vote Leeman Russ. He is a skilled leader and a cunning tactician, but he is a poor general who relies on the ferocity and valour of his men to carry the day rather than developing a well thought out plan.

So Leman Russ is responsible for killing maybe 2 mystery legions, but he's the worst strategist? Interesting.

 j31c3n wrote:
Regarding Sanguinius... if Warmaster Horus says Sanguinius ought to have been Warmaster instead of him... I think that means Sanguinius is pretty frickin' baller.

Being a Warmaster isn't really about being the best strategist or general. If it was, Guilliman would unquestionably be the best man for the job. Who does galaxy-scale warfare and army coordination better than the master of logistics?

No, the real job of a Warmaster is to make your proud, independent-minded, stubborn, sometimes downright idiotic brothers do their jobs. They are already great generals in themselves and require little coordination other than being pointed at a target. The real requirement is charisma, which is why Horus got the job and Sanguinius was the only other real contender.

 dusara217 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Psychic powers are a genetic mutation. You're either born with them, or you're not.

Yeah except as I said it's been theorized ALL Primarchs where born with it. and even if not, I'm sorry but I REALLY don't think it's outside the realm of the possiable for a buncha people capable of having limbs spontaniously become tentacles to turn someone into a psyker. so far we have not seen ANY sign of Psykic ability from Horus.

That is true, but we didn't see any out of Fulgrim unitl he went talkin' to some Daemons and got them to teach him how to use 'em.

Right, so Fulgrim had psychic potential but hadn't tapped into it then. You know, that statement you dismissed a minute ago...

Horus wasn't a 'Psyker primarch'. There is literally nothing about him being a psyker until Terra, so it's likely he was given those powers by the Chaos gods. Or, if all Primarchs have psychic potential, they were unlocked by the Chaos Gods.

On Lorgar; I think he was actually a damn good general, he just didn't want to be one. Before they were rebukes the issue was that they were taking too long with each compliance because they would spend loads of time after setting up their new religion, but after Monarchia, in the 50 years before the Heresy, they began to excel, bringing many worlds into compliances, and started catching up with his Brothers. When he puts his mind to it he seems pretty good, it just wasn't what he wanted to do. I don't think he's an idiot or overly gullible or anything either. Lorgar was cleverer than people give him credit for. He knew Signus Prime wasn't going to work, and warned Erebus and Horus that Sanguinius wouldn't turn. He knew Calth would cleanse his legion of marines just focused on petty revenge. He knew Calth and the Shadow Crusade would start the warp storm that keeps Guilliman in Ultramar. Lorgar definitely is not the worst General. Maybe, maybe he would be in a world without Angron, or Curze. But definitely not with them in the equation.

 Pyeatt wrote:
So Leman Russ is responsible for killing maybe 2 mystery legions, but he's the worst strategist? Interesting.

I said he was a great leader and tactician. Arguably the best amoung the primarchs . But the secret to his success is forging a legion full of incredibly agressive warriors who see themselves as heroes of legend seeking great deeds. He created a legion he can point at a problem and its members will compete with each other to achieve victory, taking any risk necessary to do so. Despite this they are not mad beserkers, but each of them is a cunning and clever warrior able to work as part of a team or as a lone hunter.

Leeman's greatest strength is only he could make the Space Wolves what they are and only he could use their capability to its ultimate.

History is full of great generals who have lost a battle to a well lead, aggressive army that didn't know they were beaten.

Also, worst strategist is relative, all the primarchs were natural military geniuses, capable of out generalling pretty much any human commander before them except the Emperor .

I'm amazed at the amount of votes for Leman Russ, considering the guy is said to be quite good tactically. He invented his own wargame, and he would sacrifice even himself to win the battle (as evident in Betrayal).

I agree Russ is pretty good, but sacrificing himself for a victory doesn't seem like a good tactic haha. I mean, if someone else sacrificed a Primarch to win a battle, that person would be an idiot...

 Pyeatt wrote:
So Leman Russ is responsible for killing maybe 2 mystery legions, but he's the worst strategist? Interesting.

It isn't like his plan for destroying the Thousand Sons was terribly ingenius.

"That was your plan Ray? Get her?"

 tydrace wrote:
I'm amazed at the amount of votes for Leman Russ, considering the guy is said to be quite good tactically. He invented his own wargame, and he would sacrifice even himself to win the battle (as evident in Betrayal).

The biggest issue with Leman Russ is that he is CONSTANTLY leading from the front. It would be so very easy to just kill him with a well-aimed shot to the head, or some well-timed artillery fire, and thereby leave his warriors in relative disarray for at least a few minutes/hours, which is all that is necessary to win the battle. Now, if Russ were to be leading the Space Wolves while this occurred, you would get anally raped just about as soon as he died, due to RAGEH!!! but against any other force (Army, Scions, etc.) some good sniper fire would win the day. The problem with Space Marines is that, to outsiders, they seem identical, (even the Wolves, to some extent) insomuch that their leaders are generally using the same gear as their subordinates and don't have much ornamentation on their armor, or at least, only as much as your standard Sergeants do.

I picked Ferrus without thus far reading any other replies. Just get him angry and then he pretty much would have fallen in to any trap at the rush.

To be fair, what made Ferrus angry was the worst possible betrayal imaginable. Sort of a high bar to set to"just get him angry".

But to be realistic, Dorn did the same thing. Guilliman just bailed him out.

 Rippy wrote:
I picked Ferrus without thus far reading any other replies. Just get him angry and then he pretty much would have fallen in to any trap at the rush.

Yeah, just be his best friend, closest brother, and most trusted confidant. Then betray him. Anyone could do it!

Going back to the OP original statement though. Unknown force, unknown numbers, etc. The guy I'd like to face is the guy least likely to adapt to the unknown. A guy who has a plan and then isn't willing to make changes to that plan.

So no defensive minded guys at all... those guys are right out. You might think head on attacker would be best, because you would know what they are going to do. The problem is that if that is what they do, they are probably pretty good at it and their forces are designed to do just that. So in actuality, I wouldn't want to go against them either.

No... it actually needs to be someone balanced. Someone who while wants to do all things perfectly, leaves holes that could be exploited... So on that idea, I'm going to go with the Lion. He seems like he knows what he is doing, but has proven that he can be blindsided and isn't the fastest to adapt in the shortest time.

 Jayden63 wrote:
No... it actually needs to be someone balanced. Someone who while wants to do all things perfectly, leaves holes that could be exploited... So on that idea, I'm going to go with the Lion. He seems like he knows what he is doing, but has proven that he can be blindsided and isn't the fastest to adapt in the shortest time.

That doesn't sound like the Lion.

"We are Dark Angels and in the practice of war, we follow the teachings of the Lion. He tells us war is a matter of adaptation, and whoever adapts most quickly to changing circumstances and takes advantage of the vagaries of warfare, will be victorious." - Descent of Angels, pg 383.

On the Primarchs being born with psychic powers. They weren't born at all. They were vat grown, made from the genetic coding of the Emperor and by the looks of it created from the very power of the warp. I would imagine that all of the Primarchs would be able to exhibit some form of psychic power if they chose to do so. Some were blessed with it being a key factor to their being, others had it as glimpse and some did not even recognise or attempt to use it until they learned how to.

I don't think either that there is any primarch of the Loyalists, nor the Traitors for that matter, that could not adapt to any situation. True, they specialised in their own specific ways of war, but these are all highly competent generals, all studied in every aspect of war and aware of each others tactics. If they weren't able to adapt they would have probably died a long time ago.

 j31c3n wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
I picked Ferrus without thus far reading any other replies. Just get him angry and then he pretty much would have fallen in to any trap at the rush.

Yeah, just be his best friend, closest brother, and most trusted confidant. Then betray him. Anyone could do it!

so you are saying that this is the only way to kill him? Dont be daft. His every actiom since awakening was on impulse and "Medusian" rage. Horus could have set something similar up easily.

 Rippy wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
I picked Ferrus without thus far reading any other replies. Just get him angry and then he pretty much would have fallen in to any trap at the rush.

Yeah, just be his best friend, closest brother, and most trusted confidant. Then betray him. Anyone could do it!

so you are saying that this is the only way to kill him? Dont be daft. His every actiom since awakening was on impulse and "Medusian" rage. Horus could have set something similar up easily.

Ferrus usually was very cold and calculating I think, like a machine. The fact it was Fulgrim that had turned was probably what let his rage out.

After reading this thread, I revise my opinion to Fulgrim. Because a.) he leads from the front (gloryhound) and b.) He always has the perfect plan. When his plan goes tits-up, he doesn't adapt; he simply expects his people to follow through. This is demonstrated when the First Company was battling through the Laer, struggling to reach the rendezvous point, and were late, and Fulgrim pressed on despite only the Pheonix Guard and one other Company fighting alongisde him. He would have died because of it, if the First Company had not finally fought through the hordes of Laer and reached Fulgrim and the Pheonix Guard to support with the TDA. There was something like ten different Companies intended on reaching the rendezvous point at the designated time, and despite them being late, he pressed on into a fight where he was outmanned and outgunned just so he could get some glory.

All well and good, but the title is 'which Loyalist Primarch is the worst general'

 ImAGeek wrote:
All well and good, but the title is 'which Loyalist Primarch is the worst general'

I predict the rise of the "Which of the traitor Primarchs was the worst general?" thread.

Still, that was an interesting opinion on Fulgrim. A thread might not be a bad idea!

Made one

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Rippy wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
I picked Ferrus without thus far reading any other replies. Just get him angry and then he pretty much would have fallen in to any trap at the rush.

Yeah, just be his best friend, closest brother, and most trusted confidant. Then betray him. Anyone could do it!

so you are saying that this is the only way to kill him? Dont be daft. His every actiom since awakening was on impulse and "Medusian" rage. Horus could have set something similar up easily.

Ferrus usually was very cold and calculating I think, like a machine. The fact it was Fulgrim that had turned was probably what let his rage out.

This. Ferrus taught his legion to emulate his cold logic. Anyone who thinks he was a raging berserker has clearly never read a single iota of Iron Hands fluff. He lost his cool about Fulgrim and this cost him his life. That's why his legion doubled down on the "flesh is weak, iron is strong" stuff.

 j31c3n wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Rippy wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
I picked Ferrus without thus far reading any other replies. Just get him angry and then he pretty much would have fallen in to any trap at the rush.

Yeah, just be his best friend, closest brother, and most trusted confidant. Then betray him. Anyone could do it!

so you are saying that this is the only way to kill him? Dont be daft. His every actiom since awakening was on impulse and "Medusian" rage. Horus could have set something similar up easily.

Ferrus usually was very cold and calculating I think, like a machine. The fact it was Fulgrim that had turned was probably what let his rage out.

This. Ferrus taught his legion to emulate his cold logic. Anyone who thinks he was a raging berserker has clearly never read a single iota of Iron Hands fluff. He lost his cool about Fulgrim and this cost him his life. That's why his legion doubled down on the "flesh is weak, iron is strong" stuff.

Quite tragic really because Ferrus on the whole was against the 'Flesh is weak' stuff, he tried to stop the IH going down that path so much. And then went and got himself killed, affirming the belief hed been trying to suppress.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Rippy wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
I picked Ferrus without thus far reading any other replies. Just get him angry and then he pretty much would have fallen in to any trap at the rush.

Yeah, just be his best friend, closest brother, and most trusted confidant. Then betray him. Anyone could do it!

so you are saying that this is the only way to kill him? Dont be daft. His every actiom since awakening was on impulse and "Medusian" rage. Horus could have set something similar up easily.

Ferrus usually was very cold and calculating I think, like a machine. The fact it was Fulgrim that had turned was probably what let his rage out.

This. Ferrus taught his legion to emulate his cold logic. Anyone who thinks he was a raging berserker has clearly never read a single iota of Iron Hands fluff. He lost his cool about Fulgrim and this cost him his life. That's why his legion doubled down on the "flesh is weak, iron is strong" stuff.

Quite tragic really because Ferrus on the whole was against the 'Flesh is weak' stuff, he tried to stop the IH going down that path so much. And then went and got himself killed, affirming the belief hed been trying to suppress.

Yeah, it's a bummer. At least Stronos has the sense to speak against it from time to time.

Guilliman is the most predictable, if I had a copy of the Codex Astartes then he would be useless.

Guiliman didn't follow the codex, he wrote it, as a guideline, its only after he did one that the astartes (ultras specifically) started to assume it was the be all and end all of tactics and wasn't to be deviated from.

Yeah Guilliman wouldn't be as rigid to the codex if the situation called for it. He was more flexible than 40k UM are.

Hazard30 wrote:
Id say Russ or Vulkan

Russ because he is just a dog which wants to run in and hurt you...which can easily be exploited.

Id actually learn more towards Vulkan his love for humanity would be his weakness. Send a few soldiers/vehicles to start wrecking refugee's and civilians and he would have to send help to them. Which would then be intercepted and destroyed and spread out his army.

I would probably fight against Vulkan.

Everyone is saying Ferrus because he was angry at Istavaan V unfortunately you as a general didn't betray him. When you and his army face off he will be level headed and not angry and march right over you.

I disagree with your assertion of Russ as being the mindless dog that every single Space Wolf fluff piece has their enemies thinking of them as, but I wouldn't say he's one of the more gifted generals either.

Vulkan would be more easily manipulated in a manner much as you describe. Dead on, in my opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I agree Russ is pretty good, but sacrificing himself for a victory doesn't seem like a good tactic haha. I mean, if someone else sacrificed a Primarch to win a battle, that person would be an idiot...

Guilliman actually respected Russ, Dorn, Sanguinius, and Manus above his other brothers and called them "the dauntless few", claiming that any one of them and their sired legion could win any war if they fought alongside the UM