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 Blackmoor wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:
As diversity in army lists increases (as it inevitably will with such a fast release schedule) winning games becomes closer to 25-30% list building! and the rest is skill with said list, and overall out playing the opponent.

This is why I love 7th edition. The cream rises to the top.

The top armies were loaded with Hive Fleet Leviathan formations, Wave Serpents. and Centurianstars. I do not see all that much diversity.

Sure you had those you also had Bike Marines, Drop Pod Wolves, CD summoning, Orks, and Tau.

The only 2 list out of the top 10 That are remotely similar are the Centurianstars and Chaos summoning and even then those were VASTLY different from each other.

Would anyone be kind to have a video of Sean (Lictor Sean) and/or Steve (Bikes/knight) Playing a game I missed the live videos.

-Tyranid 6e book comes out.
-Friend asks me to help him make a more competitive list.
-I muddle through the codex and then decide to put together flyrants, mawlocs, and lictors as the main body of the list.
-He's like "I don't think this is very good."
-this LVO happens a year later.
-I call him and shout "VINDICATION!" into the phone.

niv-mizzet wrote:
-Tyranid 6e book comes out.
-Friend asks me to help him make a more competitive list.
-I muddle through the codex and then decide to put together flyrants, mawlocs, and lictors as the main body of the list.
-He's like "I don't think this is very good."
-this LVO happens a year later.
-I call him and shout "VINDICATION!" into the phone.

I think every player that new the rules/meta well enough came to this.....

When I saw Flying rules + cheaper flyrants + players taking less Heavy armor vehicles for the HP scare, 12 S6 Tl shots on a 24" moving MC that needed 6's to hit was WAY to good to pass up.

Then you look at Mawlocs and think.. 2-6 (if you have 1-3 and you get dbl hits in sometimes) S6-AP2 Last blasts? Heck yeah!, Put ina Malonthrope and a couple Lictor for synergy and your good.

I thik the bing thing was at the time Very few players had Flyrants and was to scared to put that much money/points into 2-3 Flyrants and use Mawlocs.


I personally was Doing 2 Dakka Flyrants, 3 Crones, 2 Mawlocs, malonthrope right at 6th edition. I still feel crones are very good for there points and will always play them.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
As diversity in army lists increases (as it inevitably will with such a fast release schedule) winning games becomes closer to 25-30% list building! and the rest is skill with said list, and overall out playing the opponent.

This is why I love 7th edition. The cream rises to the top.

To their credit, most of the top ranked players and both the finalists have been rising to the top for three consecutive editions. Also, some of the army data collated out there shows very similar distribution and win %s. It IS cool that the top players didn't feel forced into carbon copy lists, but more or less the same people rose up And did well/won.

PanzerLeader wrote:

I played 2 lynxes at the LVO. In one game, terrain and positioning forced it to come off the sky shield and I was able to kill it when my opponent forgot to move it one turn. In the second, I never even got close to touching it with damage.

I also played 2 lynxes. They were my only 2 losses because I wasted shooting at the lynx, and my opponents rolled very lucky.

Both games started with my opponent d-slapping my Barbed herodule, aka Rolling a 6 and ignoring its 2+ or 3+ cover on their 1st shooting attack turn 1. Both games essentially ended turn 5 with a lynx shooting me off an objective by rolling a 6. One game went on to 6, but I didn't have anything left to take the objective.

You never like to lose, but those losses leave you with major feel baddies.

tag8833 wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:

I played 2 lynxes at the LVO. In one game, terrain and positioning forced it to come off the sky shield and I was able to kill it when my opponent forgot to move it one turn. In the second, I never even got close to touching it with damage.

I also played 2 lynxes. They were my only 2 losses because I wasted shooting at the lynx, and my opponents rolled very lucky.

Both games started with my opponent d-slapping my Barbed herodule, aka Rolling a 6 and ignoring its 2+ or 3+ cover on their 1st shooting attack turn 1. Both games essentially ended turn 5 with a lynx shooting me off an objective by rolling a 6. One game went on to 6, but I didn't have anything left to take the objective.

You never like to lose, but those losses leave you with major feel baddies.

I played Tyler's eldar round 6, before I say anything I want to say Tyler was a fantastic opponent, had a solid list, and played it very well. I am not sure what his score was going into the game, but I had to win or I was out as I had won all my games before by scores of 7 to 4 mostly. Long story short, the first str d hit I took I was able to recover from, but losing 2 objsec units on the final turn of the game was really crippling. Especially when the game came down to the last few rolls. Tyler won 4-2. I dropped from 4th to 21st.

It's tough to go all that way and lose a game that close when twice your only interaction with the lynx is just picking up the model and removing it. Now I could have taken one,but in my play testing I did not think an eldar lynx build had the legs to win 9 rounds, and I felt I had a better chance of going far with my eldar list.

I'm calling a bit of BS on folks who were all like "I always said Lictors were great!" There's a reason when he won his prior event everyone called it "Lictorshame", because people had generally thought they were terrible and you saw them in very Very few lists. He countered the meta of waveserpents with them (in conjunction with his entire list, of course) and was pretty darn innovative to do so at the previous event he won, and to win even bigger with it now. So major props to Sean for blazing his own trail with that list for others to follow!

 RiTides wrote:
I'm calling a bit of BS on folks who were all like "I always said Lictors were great!" There's a reason when he won his prior event everyone called it "Lictorshame", because people had generally thought they were terrible and you saw them in very Very few lists. He countered the meta of waveserpents with them (in conjunction with his entire list, of course) and was pretty darn innovative to do so at the previous event he won, and to win even bigger with it now. So major props to Sean for blazing his own trail with that list for others to follow!

I never said they are great, I said having a couple was good synergy with Mawlocs. I feel they are alittle over cost for what they do, but have 1-2 if your playing Mawlocs has been around for a while now.

Also remember formations were not really a thing when the tyranid codex came out. However, once people -- Sean mostly - pieced together little bits and pieces of formations or detachments for tyranids it started to come together. Definitely an innovative way to beat down serpant-spam lists so props to him.

Now if someone fits pyrevores in their lists - we have ourselves an internet winner.

 RiTides wrote:
I'm calling a bit of BS on folks who were all like "I always said Lictors were great!" There's a reason when he won his prior event everyone called it "Lictorshame", because people had generally thought they were terrible and you saw them in very Very few lists. He countered the meta of waveserpents with them (in conjunction with his entire list, of course) and was pretty darn innovative to do so at the previous event he won, and to win even bigger with it now. So major props to Sean for blazing his own trail with that list for others to follow!

Hey man, I played mawlocs as soon as the codex came out

#teamdakkadakkadetchment3

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
I'm calling a bit of BS on folks who were all like "I always said Lictors were great!" There's a reason when he won his prior event everyone called it "Lictorshame", because people had generally thought they were terrible and you saw them in very Very few lists. He countered the meta of waveserpents with them (in conjunction with his entire list, of course) and was pretty darn innovative to do so at the previous event he won, and to win even bigger with it now. So major props to Sean for blazing his own trail with that list for others to follow!

I never said they are great, I said having a couple was good synergy with Mawlocs. I feel they are alittle over cost for what they do, but have 1-2 if your playing Mawlocs has been around for a while now.

I should clarify that it was a general comment, not aimed at you specifically - I've seen similar things posted a few places. All I'm noting is that, if people did have these suspicions, they kept it to themselves mostly. Playing a private game or telling a friend it could be a good idea is one thing, but this player committed to the tactic, and won two major tournies with it when probably 95% (or more?) of tyranid lists were fielding no Lictors at all. He's even fielding 2 Hive Guard, which have had a similar reception among the majority of Tyranid players and suffer a similar exclusion from lists.

He's definitely shown that it's the list as a whole that matters, not the points efficiency of it's individual parts, and of course his skill in playing it. But people here are still saying they're not intimidated by his list!!! What he's doing hasn't been "around for a while now", unless people were just playing it in their basements... he's not fielding 1-2 lictors, he's fielding 6 and 2 hive guard

Fidel - Agreed, but I don't see That one happening barring a really insane formation bonus.

 krootman. wrote:
Hey man, I played mawlocs as soon as the codex came out

#teamdakkadakkadetchment3

Haha, that you did, and it was awesome! I thought you were a bit crazy at the time, too, but it was impressive . A shame our 150 gaunts from AdeptiCon '14 aren't as viable, though... until someone comes up with a #gauntshame list, that is

 RiTides wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
I'm calling a bit of BS on folks who were all like "I always said Lictors were great!" There's a reason when he won his prior event everyone called it "Lictorshame", because people had generally thought they were terrible and you saw them in very Very few lists. He countered the meta of waveserpents with them (in conjunction with his entire list, of course) and was pretty darn innovative to do so at the previous event he won, and to win even bigger with it now. So major props to Sean for blazing his own trail with that list for others to follow!

I never said they are great, I said having a couple was good synergy with Mawlocs. I feel they are alittle over cost for what they do, but have 1-2 if your playing Mawlocs has been around for a while now.

I should clarify that it was a general comment, not aimed at you specifically - I've seen similar things posted a few places. All I'm noting is that, if people did have these suspicions, they kept it to themselves mostly. Playing a private game or telling a friend it could be a good idea is one thing, but this player committed to the tactic, and won two major tournies with it when probably 95% (or more?) of tyranid lists were fielding no Lictors at all. He's even fielding 2 Hive Guard, which have had a similar reception among the majority of Tyranid players and suffer a similar exclusion from lists.

He's definitely shown that it's the list as a whole that matters, not the points efficiency of it's individual parts, and of course his skill in playing it. But people here are still saying they're not intimidated by his list!!! What he's doing hasn't been "around for a while now", unless people were just playing it in their basements... he's not fielding 1-2 lictors, he's fielding 6 and 2 hive guard

Fidel - Agreed, but I don't see That one happening barring a really insane formation bonus.

 krootman. wrote:
Hey man, I played mawlocs as soon as the codex came out

#teamdakkadakkadetchment3

Haha, that you did and it was awesome! I thought you were a bit crazy at the time, too, but it was impressive . A shame my 150 gaunts from AdeptiCon '14 aren't as viable, though... until someone comes up with a #gauntshame list, that is.

yeah.. my 60 H-gants, 80 T-gants with 60 Goyles are doing NOTHING right now at all...... what a shame.

 RiTides wrote:


I never said they are great, I said having a couple was good synergy with Mawlocs. I feel they are alittle over cost for what they do, but have 1-2 if your playing Mawlocs has been around for a while now.
I should clarify that it was a general comment, not aimed at you specifically - I've seen similar things posted a few places. All I'm noting is that, if people did have these suspicions, they kept it to themselves mostly. Playing a private game or telling a friend it could be a good idea is one thing, but this player committed to the tactic, and won two major tournies with it when probably 95% (or more?) of tyranid lists were fielding no Lictors at all. He's even fielding 2 Hive Guard, which have had a similar reception among the majority of Tyranid players and suffer a similar exclusion from lists.

Tyrant Guard. He fielded 2 individual Tyrant Guard units. Which now that I look at it, they are kind of like slower lictors but on steroids with T6 and a 3+ armor save. Not a bad goalie unit at all really.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Would anyone be kind to have a video of Sean (Lictor Sean) and/or Steve (Bikes/knight) Playing a game I missed the live videos.

Steve never played on a televised table. He lost to Geoff in round 7. I watched that entire game and his game 6 against Alex Fennel the previous day. I'd be happy to recap if interested, it involved hiding his command squad, full reserving everything else (outflanking all the remaining bikes) and surgical striking from maelstrom objectives.

Is this Geoff guy who was getting so much flak for his sportsmanship the reason the other Geoff and Goatboy kept making "what's a thunderfire cannon?" jokes during the finals?

DaftPunk wrote:
Hey I just noticed Aaron Alberts Grey Knights had Sevrin Loth in it, from what my local shop understands you cant play him as he's not updated in Imperial Armour 13 which is supposed to be the only legal source for army lists in the LVO.

I'm not calling it out, I just don't know much about the rule specifications and I just want to know so I can run Sevrin around here, really stocked if I could.

This is he. There isn't anything listed on the Frontline site and they checked all of our lists before we played. I used the updated version that is available in PDF on the Forgeworld site. I don't THINK I did anything wrong.

 punchdub wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Would anyone be kind to have a video of Sean (Lictor Sean) and/or Steve (Bikes/knight) Playing a game I missed the live videos.

Steve never played on a televised table. He lost to Geoff in round 7. I watched that entire game and his game 6 against Alex Fennel the previous day. I'd be happy to recap if interested, it involved hiding his command squad, full reserving everything else (outflanking all the remaining bikes) and surgical striking from maelstrom objectives.

thats ok, what you said was enough. Thanks.

 RiTides wrote:
I'm calling a bit of BS on folks who were all like "I always said Lictors were great!" There's a reason when he won his prior event everyone called it "Lictorshame", because people had generally thought they were terrible and you saw them in very Very few lists. He countered the meta of waveserpents with them (in conjunction with his entire list, of course) and was pretty darn innovative to do so at the previous event he won, and to win even bigger with it now. So major props to Sean for blazing his own trail with that list for others to follow!

Sean innovates every list he builds because he's not much of a net lister and, like several "pockets" around the country, is in one of the hardcore 40k player communities (CSMs, inclusive of Fennell and also the broader NE community like Nanavati and Born and co).

It's natural for people, even those who didn't talk about it much, to be like YEAH I TOLJA LICTORS ARE GOOD. That's the internet. It would be wrong of people to be like "well obviously he ran lictors everybody knows they're good" ... since, no, that's obviously untrue. But it's also untrue that everybody thought they were bad or they were broadly thought awful; hell, on the night the codex dropped way back, I was playing Nanavati (who was using his dronestar in 6th edition iteration) and snarked a win out using 3 lictor squads and deathleaper. They've never been "bad."

What is more worth noting is that almost nobody who is claiming to have been so tuned into Lictors really understands all the nuanced little things he does with them and his list in general to be super effective. Most folks are only hinting at the more obvious ones when they're talking about how they "knew" lictors were great (i.e. laser guided mawlocs). So ... yes, Sean is one of the more innovative guys ... his DE/E lists also trailblazed, he just got a little less lucky on his dice here and there in the GTs he played in (While still finishing right near the top every time). But no, it's not as if he's the first ever to mess around with Lictors successfully. And then yes, quite simultaneously, it's not as if other people were blogging all over about how awesome they were or winning GTs with them.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Is this Geoff guy who was getting so much flak for his sportsmanship the reason the other Geoff and Goatboy kept making "what's a thunderfire cannon?" jokes during the finals?

I am slightly confused with this reference?

fidel wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Is this Geoff guy who was getting so much flak for his sportsmanship the reason the other Geoff and Goatboy kept making "what's a thunderfire cannon?" jokes during the finals?

I am slightly confused with this reference?

I was watching the livestream on sunday. During the last 2 games which i caught parts of, the commentators would occasionally make a reference to the effect of "What's a thunderfire cannon do?" or "what's a techmarine, what does he have?" etc., then laugh. I'm assuming it was making light of a player who had asked these very basic questions as if he had no idea what these units were, despite making it to the top tables of a GT. I was just wondering if the person who has been mentioned here in this thread for poor sportsmanship is the person they were referring to when they were making those jokes. Just curious, that's all.

As an aside - I'd really love to attend LVO in 2016. I've only played locally here in WV so i don't really have any grand designs to win the whole tournament, but i'd love to go and compete next year. It looked like a blast.

Does anyone have a link to the games??? I still have yet to watch and see how they played out.

BTW did anyone read the bottom of the Nids list.... Spore mines? What do spore mines do? lol

krootman. wrote: I played Tyler's eldar round 6, before I say anything I want to say Tyler was a fantastic opponent, had a solid list, and played it very well. I am not sure what his score was going into the game, but I had to win or I was out as I had won all my games before by scores of 7 to 4 mostly. Long story short, the first str d hit I took I was able to recover from, but losing 2 objsec units on the final turn of the game was really crippling. Especially when the game came down to the last few rolls. Tyler won 4-2. I dropped from 4th to 21st.

It's tough to go all that way and lose a game that close when twice your only interaction with the lynx is just picking up the model and removing it. Now I could have taken one,but in my play testing I did not think an eldar lynx build had the legs to win 9 rounds, and I felt I had a better chance of going far with my eldar list.

I feel you. I played Tyler in Round 5 myself. Great opponent and I take solace from his high finish. But the main reason I say the its absurd survivability is the problem is that lack of interaction. If the Lynx couldn't benefit from the skyshield, you'd have an armor 11 vehicle that is essentially dragging around its own 4++ much like a knight. That is killable, just like any other vehicle in the game. Its the stacking of cover/invulernables on top of the holofields that make it over the top.

Breazeal wrote: What was in the top sisters list? I assume this is the one that came in at number 20 with the imperial guard allies?

The quick rundown: Celestine, 2x BSS squads, 3x Dominion squads, 3x Exorcists, allied CCS, Veteran squad, Vendetta, and Wyvern Battery.

 Tomb King wrote:
Does anyone have a link to the games??? I still have yet to watch and see how they played out.

BTW did anyone read the bottom of the Nids list.... Spore mines? What do spore mines do? lol

I was assuming that at times the spore mines could drift into the blast radius of Mawlocs adding additional hits to everything under the template, but didn't see this on the stream.

It seems they are cheap additional threats to deal with that don't provide kill points.

Breazeal wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:
Does anyone have a link to the games??? I still have yet to watch and see how they played out.

BTW did anyone read the bottom of the Nids list.... Spore mines? What do spore mines do? lol

I was assuming that at times the spore mines could drift into the blast radius of Mawlocs adding additional hits to everything under the template, but didn't see this on the stream.

It seems they are cheap additional threats to deal with that don't provide kill points.

He also used the spore mines as cheap units to man the Comms Relay from his bastion. Since they never award victory points, killing off a unit of them doesn't award First Blood, making them okay to deploy on turn 1 vs an alpha strike army.

 DarkLink wrote:
He basically argued a ton of really stupid rules. As an example, the bike player at one point split Khan off of one unit of bikes, then strung out a unit of bikes to end their movment within 2" of Khan to join them to the squad. Geoff had some something like "Khan can't join that unit, IC's have to join that unit, the unit can't join the IC". The guy next to me literally looked at me and said "WTF? They just have to end in coherency, is this guy serious?" If this were a new player, sure, but for someone on the top tables, and the way he tried to argue it?

Considering the rules say...

In order to join a unit, an Independent Character simply has to move so that he is within the 2" unit coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their Movement phase.

Not going to argue it further, just wanted to point it out.

I think the key phrase is the timing of the measurement is at the end of their movement phase, not after the independsnt character moves.

@tag883, @krootman: I think my proposed solution for Lynx's is the following: replace the Holofields rule with "Any model with holofields has a 5+ invulnerable save. This save increases to a 4+ if the model moved in the previous turn." What do you guys think having played them multiple times as well?

 Tomb King wrote:
Does anyone have a link to the games??? I still have yet to watch and see how they played out.

BTW did anyone read the bottom of the Nids list.... Spore mines? What do spore mines do? lol

Precision strike with the Lictor already on the board. I saw him use a couple units to come down and surround a Knight so it's movement was limited on the next turn.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
-Tyranid 6e book comes out.
-Friend asks me to help him make a more competitive list.
-I muddle through the codex and then decide to put together flyrants, mawlocs, and lictors as the main body of the list.
-He's like "I don't think this is very good."
-this LVO happens a year later.
-I call him and shout "VINDICATION!" into the phone.

I think every player that new the rules/meta well enough came to this.....

When I saw Flying rules + cheaper flyrants + players taking less Heavy armor vehicles for the HP scare, 12 S6 Tl shots on a 24" moving MC that needed 6's to hit was WAY to good to pass up.

Then you look at Mawlocs and think.. 2-6 (if you have 1-3 and you get dbl hits in sometimes) S6-AP2 Last blasts? Heck yeah!, Put ina Malonthrope and a couple Lictor for synergy and your good.

I thik the bing thing was at the time Very few players had Flyrants and was to scared to put that much money/points into 2-3 Flyrants and use Mawlocs.


I personally was Doing 2 Dakka Flyrants, 3 Crones, 2 Mawlocs, malonthrope right at 6th edition. I still feel crones are very good for there points and will always play them.

a large part of this is also how ITC rules FMC as the same as Flyers for blasts being fired at them when the rules do not state such a thing, which gives FMC an advantage that they normally would not have. If the ITC rule mirrored the actual rules of the game in this regard FMC would still be good, but not better than the rules intended them to actually be.

relevant quotes:

Flyers

Hard to Hit
Zooming Flyers are incredibly difficult targets for troops without suitably calibrated weapons and scopes. Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule). Template and Blast weapons, and any other attacks that don’t roll To Hit, cannot hit Zooming Flyers.

FMC

Hard to Hit
A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without specialised weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule.

ITC Faq v1.5

Template and blast weapons, and any other attacks or special rules that do not roll to hit, or hit automatically, have no effect on zooming flyers and swooping flying monstrous creatures. This is true even if the attacking unit has the skyfire rule.

The ITC ruling is not for ease of play and is a house rule that adds rules to FMC that are not stated in their actual rules to make them more viable for whatever reason unstated by the people who made the ITC 'FAQ' faq in this case is also a misnomer as this is essentially a 'house rule' or 'house erratta' and is not a question as the rules in the rulebook are clear in the wording. If the two unit types were meant to be the same the rules in the rulebook would stat the same thing, they would probably have the same movement speeds, and FMC would not start on table.