LGS being very rude to another person (Warning: Ranty!)

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**Wayniac**

My view is just... I really hate the clique mentality that I constantly see, especially in an organized game that has volunteers whose job is to promote the game to the community, not to a particular store.

Sure saying "Hey everyone XYZ Store has 20% off all of their products" is rude and not appropriate (but maybe if it was a special sale or something), but saying "The PG over at Store XYZ says they're having a 50 point tournament this weekend if anyone wants to attend" should not only be fine but be welcomed by the community as a whole.

I would not be surprised if that was Bob's "sin" at other stores.

**nkelsch**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
hotsauceman1 wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
I suspect "Bob" crimes are nothing more than attending multiple stores. In a gaming store turf war, the simple act of gaming at multiple stores is a crime punishable by 'social exclusion'

Store owners sees every dime spent elsewhere as an attack of them personally. They see people who buy elsewhere or game elsewhere as spies looking to steal customers. So they whip the loyal locals into a hate frenzy to root out those who do not declare complete loyalty to the local store.

So if Bob is a press ganger, his job is to basically support and promote Warmachine at multiple stores. If the FLGS in the area are at war with each other via customer turf battles, he will probably be despised by everyone he tries to interact with.

All you can do is avoid FLGS which turn into cults like this. Situations like this is why I became a gaming Nomad. I would rather drive 2 hours for a tourney to game and go home than to deal with politics. I got quality gaming at well-roganized events and avoided the pitfalls of 'open gaming' with social clicks.

FLGS are the only business that offer things at extreme prices and guilt you into buying from them out on loyalty when they offer nothing for that loyalty

No... you are wrong on that. Many of them do provide added value which people feel grossly entitled to and dismiss with 'I deserve more' attitudes.

It is rude to pimp competing businesses in someone else's store front, but it is unreasonable to pretend other stores don't exist. If someone plays at multiple locations the attitude should be 'what can I do to get you to spend/play here more?' opposed to 'you are a traitor, get out!'. Lots of stores are really good about this. In fact, smart stores will say "they are running a 40k tourney? We will then run a Warmachine tourney that weekend." Providing gaming space and well-run events (either by promoters or the store owner) is added value which they offer for that 'loyalty'. Online retailers can't provide a place to play or organize an event for you.

And when you have people who are affiliated with a company looking to promote a brand your store sells, you have to realize they are there to promote the brand everywhere, not just at your store. And a stronger brand is good for the retailers who sell it regardless if they promote it regionally or just at one store.

But sometimes, some 'non-customers' are toxic people and should be removed from a store. Not everyone 'run out' of a store is done so because the store is a click or the owner is bad. I can think of legitimate times when people have been legitimately asked to never return... often when they are a bragging non-customer, trying to actively harm the business through promoting online sales and competing businesses and generally anti-social behavior like "clubbing baby seals" which upset and deter growth of the community and sales.

How about no, what value do they add? Table?
The store across town offers the same, and on Fri compared to worse nights. Face it, game stores guilt trip you into buying from them.

That is like saying a restaurant 'guilt-trips' you into buying their food with table service and a nice building.

If the store across town also offers gaming space, then it is up to which one is better, the same way I go to the restaurant with better service and a cleaner restaurant as well as better food.

In your example, you are comparing restaurants, but you don't plan to actually order food at either, just bring your PB&J from home and sit at a nice table and have them bring you free bread.

Face it... at some level, if you occupy space in a store, they deserve some of your business. Most stores want good events, nice people and nice tables to be an added value to promote customers... but some customers will never buy regardless how good the events are, how nice the people are and how nice the tables are and often those people are human cancer because they are actively trying to undermine the FLGS.

If another store offers a better space, and better times for gaming, then they deserve the customers who flock to it from the other place. The trick is to gain good customers through good added value without gaining the 'outcasts' from other FLGS who were thrown out basically for being 'non-customers' with bad attitudes. There is a difference between abusing actual customers with a guilt trip and calling out actual deadbeats on being an antisocial and destructive influence on a store.

**JohnHwangDD**

This whole thread makes me so glad that I'm garage gamer.

**hotsauceman1**

nkelsch wrote:
hotsauceman1 wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
hotsauceman1 wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
I suspect "Bob" crimes are nothing more than attending multiple stores. In a gaming store turf war, the simple act of gaming at multiple stores is a crime punishable by 'social exclusion'

Store owners sees every dime spent elsewhere as an attack of them personally. They see people who buy elsewhere or game elsewhere as spies looking to steal customers. So they whip the loyal locals into a hate frenzy to root out those who do not declare complete loyalty to the local store.

So if Bob is a press ganger, his job is to basically support and promote Warmachine at multiple stores. If the FLGS in the area are at war with each other via customer turf battles, he will probably be despised by everyone he tries to interact with.

All you can do is avoid FLGS which turn into cults like this. Situations like this is why I became a gaming Nomad. I would rather drive 2 hours for a tourney to game and go home than to deal with politics. I got quality gaming at well-roganized events and avoided the pitfalls of 'open gaming' with social clicks.

FLGS are the only business that offer things at extreme prices and guilt you into buying from them out on loyalty when they offer nothing for that loyalty

No... you are wrong on that. Many of them do provide added value which people feel grossly entitled to and dismiss with 'I deserve more' attitudes.

It is rude to pimp competing businesses in someone else's store front, but it is unreasonable to pretend other stores don't exist. If someone plays at multiple locations the attitude should be 'what can I do to get you to spend/play here more?' opposed to 'you are a traitor, get out!'. Lots of stores are really good about this. In fact, smart stores will say "they are running a 40k tourney? We will then run a Warmachine tourney that weekend." Providing gaming space and well-run events (either by promoters or the store owner) is added value which they offer for that 'loyalty'. Online retailers can't provide a place to play or organize an event for you.

And when you have people who are affiliated with a company looking to promote a brand your store sells, you have to realize they are there to promote the brand everywhere, not just at your store. And a stronger brand is good for the retailers who sell it regardless if they promote it regionally or just at one store.

But sometimes, some 'non-customers' are toxic people and should be removed from a store. Not everyone 'run out' of a store is done so because the store is a click or the owner is bad. I can think of legitimate times when people have been legitimately asked to never return... often when they are a bragging non-customer, trying to actively harm the business through promoting online sales and competing businesses and generally anti-social behavior like "clubbing baby seals" which upset and deter growth of the community and sales.

How about no, what value do they add? Table?
The store across town offers the same, and on Fri compared to worse nights. Face it, game stores guilt trip you into buying from them.

That is like saying a restaurant 'guilt-trips' you into buying their food with table service and a nice building.

If the store across town also offers gaming space, then it is up to which one is better, the same way I go to the restaurant with better service and a cleaner restaurant as well as better food.

In your example, you are comparing restaurants, but you don't plan to actually order food at either, just bring your PB&J from home and sit at a nice table and have them bring you free bread.

Face it... at some level, if you occupy space in a store, they deserve some of your business. Most stores want good events, nice people and nice tables to be an added value to promote customers... but some customers will never buy regardless how good the events are, how nice the people are and how nice the tables are and often those people are human cancer because they are actively trying to undermine the FLGS.

If another store offers a better space, and better times for gaming, then they deserve the customers who flock to it from the other place. The trick is to gain good customers through good added value without gaining the 'outcasts' from other FLGS who were thrown out basically for being 'non-customers' with bad attitudes. There is a difference between abusing actual customers with a guilt trip and calling out actual deadbeats on being an antisocial and destructive influence on a store.

Tables are a service anyone can have and alol stores do. Again, tell me why I should buy from a stores except " they have tables and you should feel guilty if you don't buy from them"

**stormleader**

Do you have other FLGS options?

If so, I would bail on that store and Joe.

If you like Bob, talk with Bob about growing the game elsewhere.

**MWHistorian**

Stores provide a space to play for people who don't have that space. They also form a focus point for a community.
If those don't appeal to you, then FLGS's aren't for you. But for some, those things are quite important.
I move around a lot and rely on Pick Up Games. They're places I need to find opponents.
My current FLGS offers discounts, but they also put on tournaments and organize sales, services and matches. I consider that enough added value to warrant slightly higher prices than an on-line store.

**slowthar**

Here's a thought: grow a pair and stick up for Bob in public the next time something you think is unfair happens.

The clique running the store sound like they're being a bunch of bullies. So stand up to them.

**stanman**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
FLGS are the only business that offer things at extreme prices and guilt you into buying from them out on loyalty when they offer nothing for that loyalty

Weren't you kicked out of your local store? Not sure well I can ascribe to your statements when you are "that guy" who wants to play and socialize with his friends at a store yet basically hates the stores for the services and gaming space they provide. If people don't support the store in any fashion yet expect the full services to be offered for free then they are effectively a parasite.

(parasite as in gamers leeching off a stores resources for no gain, not in a sense of personal character attack)

**hotsauceman1**

I was kicked out because the owner insulted my friend for working at another shop.
I stood up for my friend and got banned.

**Haight**

WayneTheGame wrote:
So, small bit of background here: I go to a game shop that recently (about a year ago) got into Warmachine and has only recently (year and a half?) evolved from being a comic shop to carrying Magic, board games and other things (they split off from the comic shop at the start of the year to get a larger space).

We had a Press Ganger (Privateer Press volunteer, like the old GW Outriders program), whom I'll call Bob, start coming to the store with the intention to help grow the community. People were immediately hostile to him because supposedly he had a bad reputation in the area (it was never verified, it was basically one of our regulars saying "This Bob guy has been kicked out of every game store in the area, that's why he's coming here"), especially because one other person there (I'll call him Joe) had gotten the initial interest in Warmachine, did a demo game with the owner to sell him on it, etc. and took offense at somebody else coming in and "usurping his community", and told me as much in private that he wouldn't let someone else come in and take control over "his thing".

Joe and I recently became Press Gangers ourselves but Joe has completely twisted the concept and been appointed the "store Press Ganger" by the owner when there is no such thing (in fact, you can't be accepted if you are tied to a store), and I suspect that he only became one to make himself seem like the big shot since he "got Warmachine started here", since he doesn't care about running official events at all. Now, the issue is that Bob is constantly undermined whenever he tries to do something; people will complain to the owner for no reason about him, the owner jumps on him for basically anything (we were talking in the game room once about Press Ganger stuff unrelated to the store after I was accepted, and the owner comes over and starts chewing him out for it, claiming it was disrespectful; Bob's been chewed out for trying to use the store's computer to print out sheets for a tournament, or for trying to organize an official event without getting "permission" to do it, or once for I don't know what but the owner took him outside of the store to talk to him), and in general empowers the people who dislike him, even going so far as telling him (no idea if it's true or not) that people at the shop have complained to PP about Bob. When Bob organized a tournament, there were people talking about boycotting it and not showing up just because Bob was the one doing it. This only happens to Bob, not to me, so it's clear that they are deliberately doing it to him, probably to make him so miserable that he stops coming.

Bob also made some terrain for the store, some of which he casted himself and others which he made from MDF; he also has sold this he told me. People treated the terrain like crap, throwing it around, not being careful, etc. so a few days ago when he wanted to run another tournament (that nobody showed up for and was cancelled) he saw this and said screw it, and took most of his terrain back because people aren't being respectful of his time and money. This now has caused a bit of a stir on our private group where people, including the store owner, seem to be angry at this because they felt it was a donation and not a loan, and again are singling out Bob. In private he's told me that he's not sure if he's coming back to the store, and I told him I can't blame him since there seems to be a very antagonistic approach to his being there and people, including the owner, seem content with treating him poorly to try and run him out. The impression that I get is they want to be a clique and don't like the idea of an "outsider" coming in. They don't seem interested in growing a community or doing official events.

Now, this doesn't really affect me personally as Bob is an adult and can take care of himself, but it's really gnawing at me how bad this guy gets treated, how Joe acts like Bob is a threat that needs to be removed and how the store owner empowers that idea every chance he gets. I think the terrain thing was the last straw because Bob IMHO was right to remove his terrain since people can't treat it with respect, and now there's a lot of hostility at him for doing it as though he's the bad guy. I mean, the guy comes to the store (an hour's drive for him he says) to try and help build the community, and the community is very cliquish and hostile and was basically like "Feth off we don't want you here". from day one It's disturbing.

Jesus. I feel like i'm reading a recap of a playgroup i was involved in years ago. Seems like all parties handled at least parts badly, though I tend to fall on "Bob's" side of things a bit more, as there doesn't seem to be any factual support for all the misanthropy directed Bob's way other than "cuz its him and cuz stories i heard"... which usually tends to be a poor burden of proof.

I can't promise you it will end well for all involved, but i can promise you this. There will be butthurt feelings, and assured righteous proclamations of "being right" on both sides.

This situation is a quagmire. Proceed with caution.

For what it's worth... I have found in the decade plus since that avoiding cliquey drama ridden playgroups is the best bet. If your playgroup just always seems to have some drama going on, it's likely that the playgroup is a bunch of misfits with no other place to go that are attacking each other (overtly or subvertly) because they don't honestly like each other, but have no one else to play with (either because no one else like gaming with the hostile clique / coterie, or because it's the only group that plays those games around, etc. Or a little from column A and B).

Or hell, maybe its just honest personality clashes that they just genuinely get rubbed wrong by Bob.

I can say this. Bob is better off being a pressganger somewhere elsewise than that store, and that Store is better off if Bob doensn't come around.

... and a word of advice ; beware becoming the next "Bob". I've seen it happen, even to an "insider" to the clique. Like i said ; playgroups that just always seem to have SOME kind of drama going on, it's usually indicative of something deeper going on.

Not for the last time i'm glad my three most often opponents are quite literally my best friends.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

WayneTheGame wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
WayneTheGame wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
The store owner seems like a tool.

I think he's new to running a game store, and/or having regulars there who might always be like "Bob is such a jerk, Bob is always rude, Bob did X" whisperings.

I'm not 100% sure as like I said I've only observed it and spoken to Bob about it in private briefly when he took the terrain back.

Let me put it bluntly then.

If he's letting cliques run his store, he's doing it wrong.

* (Insinuated) taking back his terrain which he "donated" because people were disrespectful and treating it poorly. In this discussion one of the regular's piped up that he made some buildings and enjoys the fact that they are used/handled, I guess the point was that Bob is a jerk for taking back terrain that's damaged because the damage means that it's being used.

I just wanted to pay extra special attention to this point.

This. This gak right here. This is why i hate most gamers. This is why i can't fething stand most cliques of gamers.

Because it's this pig-pile pack mentality group think craven bs that drives me insane. "Imma say something clearly stupid and counter-intuitive, because it backs up a fallacious point one of mah homies is making. Why yes, i appreciate it when BIlly juggles with my GW Watchtower terrain, because Terrence is a tool, and doesn't like it when someone juggles with his watchtower terrain, but Billy is my homie, so GROUP THINK ENGAGED! RAWR!"

Omfg, i just got transported back about a decade ago to the massive gak laden groupthink fething bs i used to deal with. Ugh. This posted needed a trigger warning over Nerd Rage at Nerds.

I would run for the goddamn hills from this playgroup. Don't look back.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
This whole thread makes me so glad that I'm garage gamer.

I play probably 40% of my games at my house, and 60% at my local shop, so i am totally with you. I'm also lucky that my FLGS fething rules though, so there's that.

I guess i'm spoiled.

**Peregrine**

nkelsch wrote:
That is like saying a restaurant 'guilt-trips' you into buying their food with table service and a nice building.

No, it's not at all the same. The restaurant doesn't need to guilt trip anyone because they tell you what the price for eating there is and let the customer decide between buying or not buying. The game store provides gaming space (and potentially other services) for free as a marketing tool and then tries to guilt you into buying stuff in exchange for it. The equivalent of that isn't a normal restaurant, it's a restaurant that puts out plates of free food on every table and then, when you eat something, has an employee stand next to you saying "don't you feel bad about eating this without donating some money?" until you give them money for the "free" meal. An honest game store that wants you to pay for playing there would just set a price for renting the table and consider that separate from any other purchases, just like an honest game store doesn't expect you to buy a bunch of MTG cards as the price of being "allowed" to buy a 40k model.

**Desubot**

WayneTheGame wrote:
My view is just... I really hate the clique mentality that I constantly see, especially in an organized game that has volunteers whose job is to promote the game to the community, not to a particular store.

Then be the hammer to crack open this clique.

Round em all up and talk to them all as an adult

Otherwise move on.

**MWHistorian**

Peregrine wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
That is like saying a restaurant 'guilt-trips' you into buying their food with table service and a nice building.

No, it's not at all the same. The restaurant doesn't need to guilt trip anyone because they tell you what the price for eating there is and let the customer decide between buying or not buying. The game store provides gaming space (and potentially other services) for free as a marketing tool and then tries to guilt you into buying stuff in exchange for it. The equivalent of that isn't a normal restaurant, it's a restaurant that puts out plates of free food on every table and then, when you eat something, has an employee stand next to you saying "don't you feel bad about eating this without donating some money?" until you give them money for the "free" meal. An honest game store that wants you to pay for playing there would just set a price for renting the table and consider that separate from any other purchases, just like an honest game store doesn't expect you to buy a bunch of MTG cards as the price of being "allowed" to buy a 40k model.

It's not about guilt trip, it's about money.
"Our tables are for customers. You don't buy anything here, you don't get to use the tables."
Simple as that.

**Peregrine**

MWHistorian wrote:
It's not about guilt trip, it's about money.
"Our tables are for customers. You don't buy anything here, you don't get to use the tables."
Simple as that.

Except that's not what most stores do. They could put up a sign saying "Tables cost $5 per hour" or "X hours of table rental free with every $Y purchase" and treat the tables as another product to buy. But they don't, they put the tables out for free and then whine about how you're not "supporting the store" if you don't spend at least some undefined and completely arbitrary amount of money. And that's the guilt trip, instead of selling you a service honestly at an agreed-on price they try to guilt you into donating money.

**stanman**

I have a friend who's a press ganger who was totally enraged that the local store sided with a different press ganger in the area. My friend saw it as an open faced slap because he'd been trying to push the game, but truth be told nobody really likes him and they passed over him because he has an abrasive personality. It wasn't about a social clic he just rubs people the wrong way even when he's trying to be nice and do good. He's destructive to almost every group he tries to be involved in, he shows up and people roll their eyes, "oh man we were going to have fun... and now that guy just arrived" type responses. He's a super aggressive player, die hard tourney type that doesn't understand casual play or how to dial things back a bit to have a relaxed game. Every game to him is treated like it's some sort of high stakes tourney match, no mistakes or fun allowed. He ends up driving other players away rather quickly, but he desperately wants to be promoting the game and doesn't realize he's being entirely counter productive in that effort.

The problem is my friend just doesn't get why people have an adverse reaction to him and assumes that everyone is just out to get him. I've tried explaining it to him but he just can't see that it's his own behavior that's driving people to dislike him. He feels completely snubbed because the store wants to work with the other press ganger that people actually like and respond positively to.

Not saying that this is the case here but it's easy for people to assume it's everyone else being a jerk towards them and fail to realize they have some serious shortcomings which are causing people to react negatively.

**Haight**

stanman wrote:
I have a friend who's a press ganger who was totally enraged that the local store sided with a different press ganger in the area. My friend saw it as an open faced slap because he'd been trying to push the game, but truth be told nobody really likes him and they passed over him because he has an abrasive personality. It wasn't about a social clic he just rubs people the wrong way even when he's trying to be nice and do good. He's destructive to almost every group he tries to be involved in, he shows up and people roll their eyes, "oh man we were going to have fun... and now that guy just arrived" type responses. He's a super aggressive player, die hard tourney type that doesn't understand casual play or how to dial things back a bit to have a relaxed game. Every game to him is treated like it's some sort of high end tourney match, no mistakes or fun allowed. He ends up driving other players away rather quickly, but he desperately wants to be promoting the game and doesn't realize he's being entirely counter productive in that effort.

The problem is my friend just doesn't get why people have an adverse reaction to him and assumes that everyone is just out to get him. I've tried explaining it to him but he just can't see that it's his own behavior that's driving people to dislike him. He feels completely snubbed because the store wants to work with the other press ganger that people actually like and respond positively to.

Not saying that this is the case here but it's easy for people to assume it's everyone else being a jerk towards them and fail to realize they have some serious shortcomings which are causing peopel to react negatively.

This can totally be the case too ; i've been there too, that there's a great local scene and then... a person or people try coming to that scene, and it's just oil and water.

However having been on both sides of the fence, and i totally agree that what you posit can happen, there's a LOT of earmarks from Wayne's original post that infer toxic environment. Having been through it, there's way too many familiar points in Wayne's telling of the situation that ring very true.

It might be that Bob just rubs people wrong (and ya know what, i'll even go out on a limb and say "hell, there's a little bit of that in there"), but he's describing a textbook toxic playgroup / store / environment.

I still recommend running for a new locale and never looking back.

**stanman**

The issue is that a toxic players rep preceeds them in a lot of places. Everyone dislikes gaming against my friend and even people that haven't met him before have managed to hear about how crappy it is to game with him. So even when he goes to a new place people are like oh it's "the dude" as they know very well about his rep even if they are just meeting(which is well deserved) "The Dude" is the alter ego asshat agressive persona that he's intentionally developed and pursued yet he claims to have no clue why people dislike him, he won't admit it but he enjoys being the local pariah. If he can't get people to game with him in friendly games (because they ignore him) he does his letter best to destroy the enjoyment factor for anyone at the tournaments as he won't be excluded from those. (if any of the shop owners had any sense they'd just ban him and the event turn out would rise pretty dramatically)

I've known the guy for 20 years and outside of gaming he's not a bad guy, but I absolutely refuse to play any sort of game with him period. As he just transforms into "The Dude" anytime he games and it's terrible. He routinely gets mad at me because I refuse to game with him but I'll go game with other people.

The OP said he doesn't know what went on at previous stores so it may be possible that something along those lines occured, or mistaken identity for a different "that guy". Hard to say since it seems to be a hold over from previous events.

My friend desperately wants to be a good pres ganger and have a sea of other WM players grow around but his personality is in direct conflict with it. He builds terrain, sets up event dates, and even loans out models to beginning players but is flabbergasted when nobody shows, but they go to the other pressganger's stuff when he doesn't due a 1/3rd the work. The other guys is just a chill person that people enjoy being around and don't feel like they are being harrassed for showing up. He's a nice guy who does a decent job with helping run things at the store, but my friend cries about him like he was Satan himself. His Ego is simply huge and people don't want to deal with his aggression, and he's just not capable of understanding this. (due to the inflated Ego part)

**JohnHwangDD**

stanman wrote:
I have a friend who's a press ganger who was totally enraged that the local store sided with a different press ganger in the area. My friend saw it as an open faced slap because he'd been trying to push the game, but truth be told nobody really likes him and they passed over him because he has an abrasive personality. It wasn't about a social clic he just rubs people the wrong way even when he's trying to be nice and do good. He's destructive to almost every group he tries to be involved in, he shows up and people roll their eyes, "oh man we were going to have fun... and now that guy just arrived" type responses. He's a super aggressive player, die hard tourney type that doesn't understand casual play or how to dial things back a bit to have a relaxed game. Every game to him is treated like it's some sort of high stakes tourney match, no mistakes or fun allowed. He ends up driving other players away rather quickly, but he desperately wants to be promoting the game and doesn't realize he's being entirely counter productive in that effort.

I dunno. It seems to me that your friend is the ideal "Play like you got a pair" WAAChole Warmahordes representiative. He should be telling the casuals to up their game, because nothing in WMH is cheese or unbalanced - they just need to play better.

**Haight**

stanman wrote:
The issue is that a toxic players rep preceeds them in a lot of places. Everyone dislikes gaming against my friend and even people that haven't met him before have managed to hear about how crappy it is to game with him. So even when he goes to a new place people are like oh it's "the dude" as they know very well about his rep even if they are just meeting(which is well deserved) "The Dude" is the alter ego asshat agressive persona that he's intentionally developed and pursued yet he claims to have no clue why people dislike him, he won't admit it but he enjoys being the local pariah. If he can't get people to game with him in friendly games (because they ignore him) he does his letter best to destroy the enjoyment factor for anyone at the tournaments as he won't be excluded from those. (if any of the shop owners had any sense they'd just ban him and the event turn out would rise pretty dramatically)

I've known the guy for 20 years and outside of gaming he's not a bad guy, but I absolutely refuse to play any sort of game with him period. As he just transforms into "The Dude" anytime he games and it's terrible. He routinely gets mad at me because I refuse to game with him but I'll go game with other people.

The OP said he doesn't know what went on at previous stores so it may be possible that something along those lines occured, or mistaken identity for a different "that guy". Hard to say since it seems to be a hold over from previous events.

Yeah sounds about right regarding your friend. I know the type. "Its not enough that I win, you have to lose" type... and i don't mean competitively gaming either, i mean that kind of abrasive attitude.

That said, Wayne's account cannot confirm where Bob's "rep" came from ; but does include some personally witnessed super gakky toxic things like Store Owner yelling at BOb, Group Think Pack Clique Tactics, etc etc.

I'm open to the fact that "bob" might be just a royal asshat that drives this particular crew absolutely insane to the point of behaving really poorly.... or is it that they're a group of dousches to start with, and they have a convienent new target in an outsider ?

I think probably the truth is somewhere in the middle, probably closer to column B in my opinion.... but who the hell honestly knows.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
stanman wrote:
I have a friend who's a press ganger who was totally enraged that the local store sided with a different press ganger in the area. My friend saw it as an open faced slap because he'd been trying to push the game, but truth be told nobody really likes him and they passed over him because he has an abrasive personality. It wasn't about a social clic he just rubs people the wrong way even when he's trying to be nice and do good. He's destructive to almost every group he tries to be involved in, he shows up and people roll their eyes, "oh man we were going to have fun... and now that guy just arrived" type responses. He's a super aggressive player, die hard tourney type that doesn't understand casual play or how to dial things back a bit to have a relaxed game. Every game to him is treated like it's some sort of high stakes tourney match, no mistakes or fun allowed. He ends up driving other players away rather quickly, but he desperately wants to be promoting the game and doesn't realize he's being entirely counter productive in that effort.

I dunno. It seems to me that your friend is the ideal "Play like you got a pair" WAAChole Warmahordes representiative. He should be telling the casuals to up their game, because nothing in WMH is cheese or unbalanced - they just need to play better.

Oh god. Not page 5.

What an otherwise great game tainted by that gakky late 90's MOUNTAIN DEW XTRME marketing message. I haven't played in several years, but have they jettisoned that nonsense yet ? Hated it even when i was an infernal for them, and openly spoke against it. I wasn't alone on the infernal team either (at that time / era).

**MWHistorian**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
stanman wrote:
I have a friend who's a press ganger who was totally enraged that the local store sided with a different press ganger in the area. My friend saw it as an open faced slap because he'd been trying to push the game, but truth be told nobody really likes him and they passed over him because he has an abrasive personality. It wasn't about a social clic he just rubs people the wrong way even when he's trying to be nice and do good. He's destructive to almost every group he tries to be involved in, he shows up and people roll their eyes, "oh man we were going to have fun... and now that guy just arrived" type responses. He's a super aggressive player, die hard tourney type that doesn't understand casual play or how to dial things back a bit to have a relaxed game. Every game to him is treated like it's some sort of high stakes tourney match, no mistakes or fun allowed. He ends up driving other players away rather quickly, but he desperately wants to be promoting the game and doesn't realize he's being entirely counter productive in that effort.

I dunno. It seems to me that your friend is the ideal "Play like you got a pair" WAAChole Warmahordes representiative. He should be telling the casuals to up their game, because nothing in WMH is cheese or unbalanced - they just need to play better.

Playing to win has nothing to do with being WAAC.

**Talizvar**

Keep your head down, find the nice gamers, arrange times to meet and play.

Buy small supply stuff where non-competitive pricing is no big deal.

Make it so the clique does not have relevance.
The problem is trying to address a group rather than individuals. Those are two different social styles and sometimes we just suck at one of them.

Yeah, owners try to pull loyalty bull, I say supply what I want and we are good. An environment to play increases exposure for impulse buys so the tables are an "investment".

It is too bad with Bob, sometimes it is just by trying too hard.
A kind of desperation for being accepted that repels and some ridicule. Rather sad really.

I figure people should only "reward" good behavior, see what you can do OP in that regard, good luck!

**stanman**

I'd say that my friend has page 5 tattooed across his junk as it's him to the T, he has the mind set and social graces of Eric Cartman.

but...

A: his junk is entirely too small to tatoo

B: he's like this with every game even with something as simple checkers he's ready to rage over, which just indicates frustration over part A

He's perfect for South Park's anger management:

http://southpark.cc.com/clips/386588/the-root-of-anger#source=473fef35-48a7-434c-afc6-207874c7f1a3:3e461270-ed01-11e0-aca6-0026b9414f30&position=9&sort=playlist

**Bullockist**

MWHistorian wrote:
Peregrine wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
That is like saying a restaurant 'guilt-trips' you into buying their food with table service and a nice building.

No, it's not at all the same. The restaurant doesn't need to guilt trip anyone because they tell you what the price for eating there is and let the customer decide between buying or not buying. The game store provides gaming space (and potentially other services) for free as a marketing tool and then tries to guilt you into buying stuff in exchange for it. The equivalent of that isn't a normal restaurant, it's a restaurant that puts out plates of free food on every table and then, when you eat something, has an employee stand next to you saying "don't you feel bad about eating this without donating some money?" until you give them money for the "free" meal. An honest game store that wants you to pay for playing there would just set a price for renting the table and consider that separate from any other purchases, just like an honest game store doesn't expect you to buy a bunch of MTG cards as the price of being "allowed" to buy a 40k model.

It's not about guilt trip, it's about money.
"Our tables are for customers. You don't buy anything here, you don't get to use the tables."
Simple as that.

I think it's simpler than that.
"you want us to stay open buy something"

I say this to customers who bang on about my niche shop i work in being expensive or say i could get it cheaper there. <--- this last statement is the height of rudeness

It's not guilt it's a statement of fact.
If they want convenience of having a shop they can drop in and pick stuff up from and well talk and game (not that people game in my shop) well you'll spend the money in the shop. otherwise don't have a shop. and no drinks and snacks aren't enough to keep a shop open by themselves, shops have rent to pay. $2 profit per customer per visit just does not cut it.

OH and Wayne, gl man, least i can understand why you have been so angsty of the PP boards. I was stasrting to wonder how you could be a PG with a negative attitude, now i see what you are up against.
And for the rest of you it's friggin CLIQUE, not click. I have no idea why this annoys me so much, it's almost up there with loose as opposed to lose, i cant even spell myself but these two really annoy me

**Haight**

stanman wrote:
I'd say that my friend has page 5 tattooed across his junk as it's him to the T, he has the mind set and social graces of Eric Cartman.

but...

A: his junk is entirely too small to tatoo

B: he's like this with every game even with something as simple checkers he's ready to rage over, which just indicates frustration over part A

He's perfect for South Park's anger management: http://southpark.cc.com/clips/386586/anger-management-class

... are you sure this guy is your friend, or is he a frenemy ?

What do his enemies say about him ? LOL !

**ProtoClone**

So, what are you wanting to do at this point OP?

**JohnHwangDD**

MWHistorian wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
stanman wrote:
I have a friend who's a press ganger who was totally enraged that the local store sided with a different press ganger in the area. My friend saw it as an open faced slap because he'd been trying to push the game, but truth be told nobody really likes him and they passed over him because he has an abrasive personality. It wasn't about a social clic he just rubs people the wrong way even when he's trying to be nice and do good. He's destructive to almost every group he tries to be involved in, he shows up and people roll their eyes, "oh man we were going to have fun... and now that guy just arrived" type responses. He's a super aggressive player, die hard tourney type that doesn't understand casual play or how to dial things back a bit to have a relaxed game. Every game to him is treated like it's some sort of high stakes tourney match, no mistakes or fun allowed. He ends up driving other players away rather quickly, but he desperately wants to be promoting the game and doesn't realize he's being entirely counter productive in that effort.

I dunno. It seems to me that your friend is the ideal "Play like you got a pair" WAAChole Warmahordes representiative. He should be telling the casuals to up their game, because nothing in WMH is cheese or unbalanced - they just need to play better.

Playing to win has nothing to do with being WAAC.

Page 5 has everything to do with WAAC.

Page 5 *defines* the WMH player:

page 5 wrote:Sissies. Little girls. Nancy boys... go home. This game is not for you.

If you need to compensate for perceived smallness via WAAC play, WMH is for you.

That was the message, and I've got the PRIME rulebook to prove it.

**hotsauceman1**

Bullockist wrote:
MWHistorian wrote:
Peregrine wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
That is like saying a restaurant 'guilt-trips' you into buying their food with table service and a nice building.

No, it's not at all the same. The restaurant doesn't need to guilt trip anyone because they tell you what the price for eating there is and let the customer decide between buying or not buying. The game store provides gaming space (and potentially other services) for free as a marketing tool and then tries to guilt you into buying stuff in exchange for it. The equivalent of that isn't a normal restaurant, it's a restaurant that puts out plates of free food on every table and then, when you eat something, has an employee stand next to you saying "don't you feel bad about eating this without donating some money?" until you give them money for the "free" meal. An honest game store that wants you to pay for playing there would just set a price for renting the table and consider that separate from any other purchases, just like an honest game store doesn't expect you to buy a bunch of MTG cards as the price of being "allowed" to buy a 40k model.

It's not about guilt trip, it's about money.
"Our tables are for customers. You don't buy anything here, you don't get to use the tables."
Simple as that.

I think it's simpler than that.
"you want us to stay open buy something"

I say this to customers who bang on about my niche shop i work in being expensive or say i could get it cheaper there.

It's not guilt it's a statement of fact.
If they want convenience of having a shop they can drop in and pick stuff up from and well talk and game (not that people game in my shop) well you'll spend the money in the shop. otherwise don't have a shop. and no drinks and snacks aren't enough to keep a shop open by themselves, shops have rent to pay. $2 profit per customer per visit just does not cut it.

OH and Wayne, gl man, least i can understand why you have been so angsty of the PP boards. I was stasrting to wonder how you could be a PG with a negative attitude, now i see what you are up against.
And for the rest of you it's friggin CLIQUE, not click. I have no idea why this annoys me so much, it's almost up there with loose as opposed to lose, i cant even spell myself but these two really annoy me

ok, what if I'm done with my army, or broke and just want a game and have no planned purchases for the foreseeable future, or only want to add forge world to your army? What do I do then? Not GA email because I am not planning on buying?

**Bullockist**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
MWHistorian wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
stanman wrote:
I have a friend who's a press ganger who was totally enraged that the local store sided with a different press ganger in the area. My friend saw it as an open faced slap because he'd been trying to push the game, but truth be told nobody really likes him and they passed over him because he has an abrasive personality. It wasn't about a social clic he just rubs people the wrong way even when he's trying to be nice and do good. He's destructive to almost every group he tries to be involved in, he shows up and people roll their eyes, "oh man we were going to have fun... and now that guy just arrived" type responses. He's a super aggressive player, die hard tourney type that doesn't understand casual play or how to dial things back a bit to have a relaxed game. Every game to him is treated like it's some sort of high stakes tourney match, no mistakes or fun allowed. He ends up driving other players away rather quickly, but he desperately wants to be promoting the game and doesn't realize he's being entirely counter productive in that effort.

I dunno. It seems to me that your friend is the ideal "Play like you got a pair" WAAChole Warmahordes representiative. He should be telling the casuals to up their game, because nothing in WMH is cheese or unbalanced - they just need to play better.

Playing to win has nothing to do with being WAAC.

Page 5 has everything to do with WAAC.

Page 5 *defines* the WMH player:

page 5 wrote:Sissies. Little girls. Nancy boys... go home. This game is not for you.

If you need to compensate for perceived smallness via WAAC play, WMH is for you.

That was the message, and I've got the PRIME rulebook to prove it.

All page 5 means is play fair play hard and don't cry when you lose. It has nothing to do with WAAC , it has to do with being a good winner/loser and trying your hardest. I suppose they are bad things to hold up as ways to play. Sure the language is a little abrasive, but perhaps they wanted to get the message across strongly. I think page 5 was a good thing.
I see less drama about WMH than i do about 40k so i think it has worked. Proof is in the pudding, not the rhetoric.

Sauceman all i am saying is if you don't want the shop to be open, don't spend money. If you want it to be open, spend money. I just don't get how people expect hobby stores to stay open magically (not directed at you personally) "I spend $20 there a month, they'll be open for ever!". If it's a Fekkin Niche store you have to support it, money for niche stores is not otiose

**stanman**

Haight wrote:

... are you sure this guy is your friend, or is he a frenemy ?

What do his enemies say about him ? LOL !

I hate the term but he's in the frenemies category. Main reason I talk to him is that I feel bad for him as he doesn't have many friends (with total justification) I've found his constant negativity over the years to be overwhelming which is why I tightly limit my interaction with him and always keep it non gaming. He's gotten worse over the years and if he'd been this bad when I first knew him I wouldn't have hung out with him, now I put up with it simply because I've known him so long and I never game with him.

He is literally my group's Cartman, there's no reason why we hang out with him outside of the fact he's there. Just like in every episode they should just walk away from Cartman and never look back yet for some reason they don't.

**hotsauceman1**

Bullockist wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
MWHistorian wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
stanman wrote:
I have a friend who's a press ganger who was totally enraged that the local store sided with a different press ganger in the area. My friend saw it as an open faced slap because he'd been trying to push the game, but truth be told nobody really likes him and they passed over him because he has an abrasive personality. It wasn't about a social clic he just rubs people the wrong way even when he's trying to be nice and do good. He's destructive to almost every group he tries to be involved in, he shows up and people roll their eyes, "oh man we were going to have fun... and now that guy just arrived" type responses. He's a super aggressive player, die hard tourney type that doesn't understand casual play or how to dial things back a bit to have a relaxed game. Every game to him is treated like it's some sort of high stakes tourney match, no mistakes or fun allowed. He ends up driving other players away rather quickly, but he desperately wants to be promoting the game and doesn't realize he's being entirely counter productive in that effort.

I dunno. It seems to me that your friend is the ideal "Play like you got a pair" WAAChole Warmahordes representiative. He should be telling the casuals to up their game, because nothing in WMH is cheese or unbalanced - they just need to play better.

Playing to win has nothing to do with being WAAC.

Page 5 has everything to do with WAAC.

Page 5 *defines* the WMH player:

page 5 wrote:Sissies. Little girls. Nancy boys... go home. This game is not for you.

If you need to compensate for perceived smallness via WAAC play, WMH is for you.

That was the message, and I've got the PRIME rulebook to prove it.

All page 5 means is play fair play hard and don't cry when you lose. It has nothing to do with WAAC , it has to do with being a good winner/loser and trying your hardest. I suppose they are bad things to hold up as ways to play. Sure the language is a little abrasive, but perhaps they wanted to get the message across strongly. I think page 5 was a good thing.
I see less drama about WMH than i do about 40k so i think it has worked. Proof is in the pudding, not the rhetoric.

I think page 5 is a blemish on war machine tbh. It's a great game, but too many people I see use it as justification for anew abrasive attitude.