Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'm actually tempted to play a test game with either deathwing or archangels and give all termie armor +1T for no extra cost to see how it goes.
I'm willing to bet it still won't be all that good, but better than now.

I rue the day that a 2+ 3++ save became meh.

Like seriously, what does it take for a model to become "good"? Must it match up with the other overpowered gak in 40k like flyrants or wraiths?

Because I think that, instead of buffing every unit to compete with Wraiths or Flyrants, we should instead address the systemic errors that allow bullgak like flyrants and wraiths to exist in the first place.

It's not that 2+/3++ units are bad. it's that 2+/3++ units for 45 points on a T4 body that's underwhelming.

As with everything in 40k, it all boils down to cost effectiveness. They are too costly for what they can do because they are extremely prone to bad luck. No matter what you have a 17% chance per wound suffered of just losing one of them, and at T4, that's going to happen a lot to just about any shooting in the game.

What srs said. 2+ 3++ is great. S8 ap2 is great. T4 is not. 1 wound is not. Init 1 attacks is not. Walking speed is not. Unable to sweep is not. And 45 points for that is not.

That's a lot of factors working against them, and only a couple working for.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I rue the day that a 2+ 3++ save became meh.

Like seriously, what does it take for a model to become "good"? Must it match up with the other overpowered gak in 40k like flyrants or wraiths?

Because I think that, instead of buffing every unit to compete with Wraiths or Flyrants, we should instead address the systemic errors that allow bullgak like flyrants and wraiths to exist in the first place.

Yes, it has to match up because otherwise, it's underpowered. See, the definition of balance is no one unit is strictly better than another unit for the price. This is demonstrated by Starcraft pretty well. If someone spams marines, I can build siege tanks or collosi. Spam zerglings? I'll get hellions or zealots. What's the hard counter to wraiths? What's the hard counter to Riptides? What's the hard counter to Tiggystars?

The default choice will be to buff units up to the level of the broken ones, so the people with broken units don't qq about getting nerfed.

Martel732 wrote:
What's the hard counter to wraiths? What's the hard counter to Riptides? What's the hard counter to Tiggystars?

Greentide? Well, not so sure bout wraiths but riptides and tiggystars just stop being effectivr at that point.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I rue the day that a 2+ 3++ save became meh.

Like seriously, what does it take for a model to become "good"? Must it match up with the other overpowered gak in 40k like flyrants or wraiths?

Because I think that, instead of buffing every unit to compete with Wraiths or Flyrants, we should instead address the systemic errors that allow bullgak like flyrants and wraiths to exist in the first place.

They have a good save and high damage output, the problem with them is that they have very poor mobility, and require a transport that literally doubles their points cost in order to be effective. The inability to sweep is also pretty awful when you're fighting bricks of Necron Warriors and you're pretty much relying on the sweep to knock them out.

Martel732 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I rue the day that a 2+ 3++ save became meh.

Like seriously, what does it take for a model to become "good"? Must it match up with the other overpowered gak in 40k like flyrants or wraiths?

Because I think that, instead of buffing every unit to compete with Wraiths or Flyrants, we should instead address the systemic errors that allow bullgak like flyrants and wraiths to exist in the first place.

Yes, it has to match up because otherwise, it's underpowered. See, the definition of balance is no one unit is strictly better than another unit for the price. This is demonstrated by Starcraft pretty well. If someone spams marines, I can build siege tanks or collosi. Spam zerglings? I'll get hellions or zealots. What's the hard counter to wraiths? What's the hard counter to Riptides? What's the hard counter to Tiggystars?

The default choice will be to buff units up to the level of the broken ones, so the people with broken units don't qq about getting nerfed.

No. Balancing the game around the most powerful (read: imbalanced) is a completely backwards way of thinking about it, you cannot just twist the stats until the OP becomes the average and then a whole new wave of OP. When 90% of units in the game are in the category that you call 'meh' and I call 'normal', it's frankly idiotic to balance the game around the outlying 10%.

No, this doesn't make the problem go away with the OP units, but every time a codex comes out that cannot compete with the Big 3 OP builds (Serpent Spam, Summon-spam, Triptide), it can only be a good thing for the game at large.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Why do people say a 2+/3++ model with Deep Strike and 2 Str 8 Ap2 attacks is bad?

Good god you all must think Leman Russes are terrible!

'Cause he's 45pts and only has to roll one one to die.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I rue the day that a 2+ 3++ save became meh.

Like seriously, what does it take for a model to become "good"? Must it match up with the other overpowered gak in 40k like flyrants or wraiths?

Because I think that, instead of buffing every unit to compete with Wraiths or Flyrants, we should instead address the systemic errors that allow bullgak like flyrants and wraiths to exist in the first place.

That's beyond the scope of this conversation; I'm sure you can take that question over to Proposed Rules and get solutions to the systemic errors, but the fact remains that in the current game Assault Terminators are decent in the right matchup but not particularly powerful.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I rue the day that a 2+ 3++ save became meh.

Like seriously, what does it take for a model to become "good"? Must it match up with the other overpowered gak in 40k like flyrants or wraiths?

Because I think that, instead of buffing every unit to compete with Wraiths or Flyrants, we should instead address the systemic errors that allow bullgak like flyrants and wraiths to exist in the first place.

That's what I keep saying, and yet some think that anything that isn't a Wraith or a a Flyrant is in dire need of a massive buff

GW really needs to address the issues with certain units simply being overcapable, fixing those is a lot easier and more productive than overbuffing everything else, especially units that are already pretty insanely durable.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I rue the day that a 2+ 3++ save became meh.

Like seriously, what does it take for a model to become "good"? Must it match up with the other overpowered gak in 40k like flyrants or wraiths?

Because I think that, instead of buffing every unit to compete with Wraiths or Flyrants, we should instead address the systemic errors that allow bullgak like flyrants and wraiths to exist in the first place.

They have a good save and high damage output, the problem with them is that they have very poor mobility, and require a transport that literally doubles their points cost in order to be effective. The inability to sweep is also pretty awful when you're fighting bricks of Necron Warriors and you're pretty much relying on the sweep to knock them out.

I think the issue here is that they're not designed to be used in that tole. TH/SS termi's are there to engage things like big scary Monstrous Creatures and vehicles, stuff that they're going to kill through hitting it with hammers until it goes away, as opposed to sweeping through massed ranks of footsloggers.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I rue the day that a 2+ 3++ save became meh.

Like seriously, what does it take for a model to become "good"? Must it match up with the other overpowered gak in 40k like flyrants or wraiths?

Because I think that, instead of buffing every unit to compete with Wraiths or Flyrants, we should instead address the systemic errors that allow bullgak like flyrants and wraiths to exist in the first place.

That's what I keep saying, and yet some think that anything that isn't a Wraith or a a Flyrant is in dire need of a massive buff

GW really needs to address the issues with certain units simply being overcapable, fixing those is a lot easier and more productive than overbuffing everything else, especially units that are already pretty insanely durable.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I rue the day that a 2+ 3++ save became meh.

Like seriously, what does it take for a model to become "good"? Must it match up with the other overpowered gak in 40k like flyrants or wraiths?

Because I think that, instead of buffing every unit to compete with Wraiths or Flyrants, we should instead address the systemic errors that allow bullgak like flyrants and wraiths to exist in the first place.

They have a good save and high damage output, the problem with them is that they have very poor mobility, and require a transport that literally doubles their points cost in order to be effective. The inability to sweep is also pretty awful when you're fighting bricks of Necron Warriors and you're pretty much relying on the sweep to knock them out.

I think the issue here is that they're not designed to be used in that tole. TH/SS termi's are there to engage things like big scary Monstrous Creatures and vehicles, stuff that they're going to kill through hitting it with hammers until it goes away, as opposed to sweeping through massed ranks of footsloggers.

I'd rather shoot monsters.

In order for them to be good, they have to be expensive as sin. They need a delivery system, which means land raider.

Your talking about 600 points without any characters. It becomes the focal piece of your army.

I use it occasionally, I'll bring a couple of lightning claw guys to absorb fire/higher initiative attacks for the TH/SS guys. It is certainly effective, but your army becomes kind of a one trick pony at that point. And if you have a bit of bad luck with them... well you're in a big hurt zone.

I wouldn't call them insanely durable. They only have twice the durability of a standard tac marine against ap4 or better. And it's not exactly difficult to kill tacs with small arms fire.