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 j31c3n wrote:
Nobody. Orders a Chapter Master to do anything. You ask nicely.

That said, political pressure can compel a chapter to do things. Penitent crusades and so on. But a Chapter Master ultimately has the final decision. Obviously if a chapter gets too out of line, they get Minotaur'd. They know this. But that doesn't change that ultimately, a Chapter Master answers only to the Emperor. Not the High Lords. Not the Inquisition. Not their fellow Chapter Masters.

Actually, you have that wrong. It is "getting Minotaured" that means the Chapter Master answers to the Inquisition... or else.

The Sisters are also the go-to for taking out errant Chapters. The whole point of a Penitent Crusade is the Inquisition and/or the High Lords taking a Chapter to task for some slight, misdeed or crime. There's all kinds of things the Inquisition holds over the heads of a Space Marine Chapter, and *most* Chapters don't have the good fortune of being First Founding Chapters, and so either do what they're told or end up like the Soul Drinkers... or the Astral Claws.

 Psienesis wrote:
Actually, you have that wrong. It is "getting Minotaured" that means the Chapter Master answers to the Inquisition... or else.

The Space Wolves would beg to differ. Show me a source for your claims.

I've never heard of a chapter explicitly being threatened to do something or even ordered to do something. SM chapters have their own set of routines, especially within their own galactic boundries and chapters receive requests from dozens of planets every single day and they ascertain the importance of each planetary request from most important to least. They are never told to do squat, they pretty much do what they want with the exception of having Inquisitors board their ships and visit their homeworlds every once and a while to make sure everything is in order. Obviously, the SW are one of very few chapters (if any?) that refuse the intervention of Inquisitors in any way.

Nothing about the Fire Hawks? As instrumental to causing the Badab War as the secessionists arrogant and incompetent

 j31c3n wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Actually, you have that wrong. It is "getting Minotaured" that means the Chapter Master answers to the Inquisition... or else.

The Space Wolves would beg to differ. Show me a source for your claims.

he's more or less wrong, even the inqusition needs to tread carefully with the Astartes, as the reach of an Inqusitioner is no more then his ability to convince people to back him. that said, the Space Wolves, as noted, are a first founding chapter, and thus DO have more leeway. ESPECIALLY because going after a particularly storied chapter will prove harder for an inqusitor then a no name chapter with an already poor reputation

Even then, "1st founding immunity" doesn't hold much water because the Inquisition has invaded Fenris on multiple occasions and tried to forcibly reign the Wolves in, even using Sisters of Battle.

They've just gotten the gak kicked out of them by the Wolves and forced to "let sleeping dogs lie" every time.

Which ultimately is the real dilemma for the Inquisition. Sure, with enough regiments and enough Sororitas orders, they could eventually crush the Space Wolves... but why bother? Are the Space Wolves disobedient? Obviously. Are they working against the interests of Man? Not really, no. They still fight for the Imperium, they still respond to Imperial pleas for help and still launch campaigns to fight its enemies. So why bother wasting huge amounts of manpower and resources to topple one of the most powerful singular forces in the entire Imperium when they're still putting in work for the team?

Thus, Astartes get a wide berth from other Imperial forces. The Ultramarines refuse to fight in the same theater as the Minotaurs, and no one is forcing them to do otherwise. The Dark Angels and the Iron Hands have both mysteriously and without warning pulled out of battles, leaving their Imperial allies to die, and neither have ever been disciplined for it. The Space Wolves and the Black Templars blatantly ignore the tenets of the Codex Astartes and no one cares. Purging a Chapter for belligerence is generally more trouble then it's worth, and tolerating them is a small price to pay when the flip-side is having one in your pocket when it counts.

Inquisitors may have ultimate power but still have to be careful.
Tact, diplomacy and such serve them just as well when needing space marine or mechanicum support.

Certain impirial organisations do not react well to threats.
How many have suffered from accident, malfunction or such?
Dark angels probbly made a few disappear.

Plus the sheer amount if effort to destroy a chapter when dug into there fortress.
Look how much pounding the space wolves did take and still was not breached.

Remember also that, strictly speaking, the Space Wolves were not divided into Chapters.

It's entirely possible that if you were to unite all the great companies (as attacking Fenris surely would) you're looking at a force possibly almost as large as the Legion of old.

According to fluff, only the Black Templars might be able to field a similar force.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Remember also that, strictly speaking, the Space Wolves were not divided into Chapters.

It's entirely possible that if you were to unite all the great companies (as attacking Fenris surely would) you're looking at a force possibly almost as large as the Legion of old.

According to fluff, only the Black Templars might be able to field a similar force.

Werent Black Templars changed to 1000 marines?

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Remember also that, strictly speaking, the Space Wolves were not divided into Chapters.

It's entirely possible that if you were to unite all the great companies (as attacking Fenris surely would) you're looking at a force possibly almost as large as the Legion of old.

According to fluff, only the Black Templars might be able to field a similar force.

No, the new fluff clearly shows that the SW are not even close to Legion strength. Logan has the largest great company as of M41, and it has 200+ Space Wolves in it (acquired from adding up all the members of the Great Company in the Champions of Fenris Supplement, albeit Runepriests, Iron Priests and Wolfpriests are not listed, which is odd because the new Dex states these specialists are hosted in the Great Company). So the Company of the Great Wolf, being the largest of all Great Companies, has at most 300 Space Wolves, and I'm being generous here. There's probably a exact number somewhere, but I can find it right now.

Also, due the ambiguity of the Black Templar's actual Strength, it is still the only Space Marine Chapter that can possible approach legion strength.

But 'Dirt Bag' chapter? I'd say Dark Angels. I said this because, one, just to mess with some heads; and two, is to raise the issue that many Inquisitors and one Black Templar Crusade seemed to have disappeared after crossing path WITH DESCENDENT OF THE FIRST AND MOST LOYAL LEGION ASTARTES, MOST VIGILANT AND VALIANT OF THE EMPEROR'S CHAMPIONS. I mean gee, it's not like they are hiding something, for SURELY THE PUREST OF CHAPTERS WOULD NOT QUESTION THE JUSTIFIED INQUIRIES FROM THE EMPEROR'S CHOSEN JUDGES!

Psienesis wrote:
The Sisters are also the go-to for taking out errant Chapters.

This has never been the case.

Other Space Marine Chapters and /or the Grey Knights have been the typical force called to take errant Space Marine Chapters to task. Has that meant that the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition have not tried to use SIsters to do it? Sure. And it ends up poorly for them as often as not.

The only fluff blurb that ever suggested that was in a Rogue Trader rulebook sidebar. And that was back when the Sisters were just galactic busybodies, and when Space Marines still supposedly worshipped the Imperial Cult. It has never been mentioned since then and for good reason. The closest the fluff gets to suggesting the Sisters are used against Space Marines is the Codex: Witchhunters line of "challenging Renegade Space Marine chapters" but provides no context beyond that which would suggest they are the "go to". It's simple Sister Fanon, lacking a reasonable causal relationship. "Because the Sisters will fight renegade Space Marines, it must mean they are the first choice." No, that's not how logic works, lol.

Meanwhile, when the fluff talks about Space Marines who have gone renegade, this is how it works.

Renegades:
Flame Falcons - Destroyed by Grey Knights
Relictors - 4 Chapters of Space Marines, then later, Grey Knights.
Badab War - Space Marines
Crimson Slaughter - Space Marines

Meanwhile, the Sisters glorious litany of self-provoked offensive actions against Space Marines:
Sons of Malice - lost horribly. Even worse, the sons of Malice weren't even renegades until they were attacked.
Space Wolves - lost. Again, the Space Wolves weren't renegades, this was more galactic busybodying by the Ecclesiarchy.



Just because they've done it occassionaly in the fluff doesn't make them the "go to" option. The Sisters are shock troops and religious enforcers, nothing more. They are also single-minded and unqestioning, meaning they can be easily steered in whatever direction an amibitious and clever Inquisitor or Cardinal can convince them is heretical. This is why they end up being routinely complicit in stealing Xenos artifacts, or foolishly attacking Space Marines. The Ecclesiarchy is the 40K universe's poke at the dangers of unquestioning belief and the consequences of reactionary action by religious zealots. The Sisters of Battle aren't used to attack Space Marines. That woud be silly. Space Marines are superior to Sisters of Battle in every way, from biology, to training, to arsenal. What the Sisters of Battle will do, is attack Space Marines if you convince them it's the correct thing to do, because they don't stop to consider consequences.

 Llamahead wrote:
Nothing about the Fire Hawks? As instrumental to causing the Badab War as the secessionists arrogant and incompetent

Didn't they quit the war because they had to fight on the *same* side as the Space Sharks?

Come on- what's worse than being so bloody-minded that other Space Marines will take their ball and go home rather than fight alongside you? No one did that because they were given the same job as the Minotaurs...

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Remember also that, strictly speaking, the Space Wolves were not divided into Chapters.

It's entirely possible that if you were to unite all the great companies (as attacking Fenris surely would) you're looking at a force possibly almost as large as the Legion of old.

According to fluff, only the Black Templars might be able to field a similar force.

We have solid numbers on 2 of the Great Companies, and a solid number on the total number of Great Companies.

Logan Grimnar's GC has 200 Space Wolves, and is said to be the largest Great Company. Ragnar Blackmane's GC has 188 Space Wolves, and is said to be the second-largest. There's 10 other living Great Companies (we all know what happened to the 13th). So, let's assume, for sake of argument, that the remaining 10 GCs have 187 Space Wolves each: 187x10= 1870 + 188 = 2058 + 200 = 2258 Space Wolves in the Galaxy.

Over twice the size of a regular Chapter, sure, but nowhere close to Legion-strength.

The size of the Black Templars has recently been stated to be only slightly larger than a full-strength Chapter, and spread out across the Western side of the galaxy (and elsewhere).

The Space Wolves survive because of their plot armor. Nothing more.


And if you need examples of Space Marine Chapters being ordered to do something by Imperial officials? Look at the Abyssal Crusade.

 Psienesis wrote:

And if you need examples of Space Marine Chapters being ordered to do something by Imperial officials? Look at the Abyssal Crusade.

*Cough* Just so you know, the Abyssal Crusade only happened because the Space Marine Chapters were goated into volunteering to do so:

The Judged, as these fallen Chapters came to be known, volunteered for a redemptive crusade. The most militant of their number demanded the right to purify their tainted flesh in the fires of battle, to make a noble end from tragic misfortune. To the surprise of his closest advisors, Saint Basillius agreed to their proposal. He saw it fitting to send the accused into the Eye of Terror, taking the fight for the Imperium's future to the Daemon worlds inhabited by the Chaos Space Marines. (Codex: Chaos Space Marines. 6th Edition. "Abyssal Crusade". p17)

A representative from each of the doomed Chapters held an emergency Council of Dismay to discuss the proposed crusade. After scant hours of debate, they acquiesced to Basillius' demands, for they believed that martyrdom was preferable to an existence of suspicion and doubt. (Codex: Chaos Space Marines. 6th Edition. "Abyssal Crusade". p17)

Edit: That's not to say the chapters just ignores the high lords. Basillius was so influential amongst the High Lord he was able to demand the chapters be rendered onto his judgement and had it done in just one year.

 lcmiracle wrote:

No, the new fluff clearly shows that the SW are not even close to Legion strength.

Yeah, forgot new fluff. Which makes my head hurt as they didn't change other fluff, which means there should be no Space Wolves now. I hope we get a new Armageddon book soon.

Those Chapter Masters chose to obey those orders. Nothing compelled them to do so outside of their own minds.

If you want to interpret it that way, sure.

The other way to interpret it is "It's in our best interests to obey these orders because, otherwise, a fleet's going to roll up and blow our homeworlds up."

A threat doesn't have to be voiced to be present. As Angelos sums up for us quite nicely in DoW, in regards to the Inquisition, "to hate them is heretical, to fear them: redundant".

Let's also not forget that the Inquisition draws its authority from the Word of the Emperor, either from His mouth directly, or from Malcador the Sigilite, who spoke with His authority (depending on which story you want to believe). They were given the remit to go anywhere, do anything, demand any resource, command any Imperial citizen, in the cause of purity.

 Psienesis wrote:
If you want to interpret it that way, sure.

The other way to interpret it is "It's in our best interests to obey these orders because, otherwise, a fleet's going to roll up and blow our homeworlds up."

A threat doesn't have to be voiced to be present. As Angelos sums up for us quite nicely in DoW, in regards to the Inquisition, "to hate them is heretical, to fear them: redundant".

Let's also not forget that the Inquisition draws its authority from the Word of the Emperor, either from His mouth directly, or from Malcador the Sigilite, who spoke with His authority (depending on which story you want to believe). They were given the remit to go anywhere, do anything, demand any resource, command any Imperial citizen, in the cause of purity.

If RAW. The concern was the chapters deemed tainted would have suffered an existence of doubt and suspision.

Of course. And who better to spread such rumors than the body that polices the release of information in the Imperium?

 Psienesis wrote:
Of course. And who better to spread such rumors than the body that polices the release of information in the Imperium?

I'm sorry, you are not allowed to use the "may be imperial propaganda" excuse here to bend it towards your point; at best it's a moot point because I can call this a ecclesiarchy propaganda seeing how it portrays the marines as easily turntable liabilities. Not to mention the same article details what many chapters faced in the EoT, how they are turned, something even the survived chapters could not know.

Also, what can "the body policing that police the release of information" gain from this, showing an imperial saint could be a dark apostle? Was it the Alpha Legion, or was it Cypher?

Point is, you want to read it as propaganda, I can't stop you; but pushing what you believe out of your own understanding independent from supporting materials does not make for a good nor sound argument.

Not arguing for or against the sisters of battle thing but, I am adding to the discussion. If you want, use this for your points.



That's an oldie on the subject. Also, I believe there was a certain Flesh Tearer short story/book where the sisters purge a small group of them.

However it could be argued due to miscommunication and the black rage/thirst affecting the Marines of the Flesh Tearers that they were killed. I'm a bit loose on that bit of fluff. I hope someone can clarify/source.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
I've never heard of a chapter explicitly being threatened to do something or even ordered to do something. SM chapters have their own set of routines, especially within their own galactic boundries and chapters receive requests from dozens of planets every single day and they ascertain the importance of each planetary request from most important to least. They are never told to do squat, they pretty much do what they want with the exception of having Inquisitors board their ships and visit their homeworlds every once and a while to make sure everything is in order. Obviously, the SW are one of very few chapters (if any?) that refuse the intervention of Inquisitors in any way.

The Abyssal Crusade. Thirty Chapters jumped into the big crotch stain of the galaxy known as the Eye of Terror to redeem themselves after they were accused of being tainted. They didn't go for fun. They were threatened with purging if they didn't. Sounds an awful lot like an order, or at least an ultimatum, to me. Like the Mechanicus, Space Marines have a lot of autonomy get away with a lot compared to the rest of the Imperium, but even they can be called to account.

 j31c3n wrote:
Nobody. Orders a Chapter Master to do anything. You ask nicely.

That said, political pressure can compel a chapter to do things. Penitent crusades and so on. But a Chapter Master ultimately has the final decision. Obviously if a chapter gets too out of line, they get Minotaur'd. They know this. But that doesn't change that ultimately, a Chapter Master answers only to the Emperor. Not the High Lords. Not the Inquisition. Not their fellow Chapter Masters.

"Being a peer of the Imperium of Man, the Chapter Master acts with authority as he sees fit, according to his own counsel and judgment, answerable to no one except his fellow Chapter Masters and the Emperor of Mankind himself or his representatives, the High Lords of Terra." http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Chapter_Master

That quote was paraphrased from 5th Edition SM Codex.

SO....Emperor > High Lords of Terra > SM Chapter Master = Inquisitor > Rogue Trader

>quotes 40kwikia like it's reliable

 j31c3n wrote:
>quotes 40kwikia like it's reliable

QFT. I remember a member of a giant online clan/chapter editing in his personal RPG character into the Raven Guard page.

It took them months to remove it, lol.

 Stormwall wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:
>quotes 40kwikia like it's reliable

QFT. I remember a member of a giant online clan/chapter editing in his personal RPG character into the Raven Guard page.

It took them months to remove it, lol.

They also once posted the colors for Ulthwe as teal.

 fallinq wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
I've never heard of a chapter explicitly being threatened to do something or even ordered to do something. SM chapters have their own set of routines, especially within their own galactic boundries and chapters receive requests from dozens of planets every single day and they ascertain the importance of each planetary request from most important to least. They are never told to do squat, they pretty much do what they want with the exception of having Inquisitors board their ships and visit their homeworlds every once and a while to make sure everything is in order. Obviously, the SW are one of very few chapters (if any?) that refuse the intervention of Inquisitors in any way.

The Abyssal Crusade. Thirty Chapters jumped into the big crotch stain of the galaxy known as the Eye of Terror to redeem themselves after they were accused of being tainted. They didn't go for fun. They were threatened with purging if they didn't. Sounds an awful lot like an order, or at least an ultimatum, to me. Like the Mechanicus, Space Marines have a lot of autonomy get away with a lot compared to the rest of the Imperium, but even they can be called to account.

Um, not what I was saying. They were tainted, therefore they were indeed sent into the eye. I'm talkin about the general way SM operate from day to day. What they do is never under direct orders. As I said, SM are still expected to follow the dictates of the Imperium so the Inquisition keeps an eye on them but other than that, they are never "ordered" to do anything.

I always viewed Soul Drinkers being a victim more than dirt-bags personally.

The ones that are ALWAYS at the wrong place at the wrong time, holding the wrong weapons, fighting the wrong enemy for the wrong reasons.

Almost feel bad for them me thinks.

Well when it comes to Chapters, the list can be very long. Most Space Marine are jerks. It's not really their fault. They are super soldiers created to be violent and murderous with very little humanity in them. On top off that, they all are religious zealot and not the merry type of religious zealot who heal the sick and feed the poor. Yes you can be religious AND believe the Emperor was just a men see Buddhism for an exemple of that. They place very little value on life including their own and have a disproportionate amount of pride when it comes to themselves, their Chapter and their other brothers. If one of us was to spend a day with a Marine, by the end of it he would probably wish he never met him (unless that person is a big fan of anthropological studies). But the worst dirt bag are probably the Iron Hands. They are so hatefull, careless and wrapt in their own delusion that they are a danger to themselves and their allies. Their own Primarch, a good man at heart if anti-social, thought they were going to far and was worried at the end of the Great Crusade for their sanity. His death made things even worst and so did time. My vote goes for them.

If a make a little resume of who was mentionned until now we got:

Soul Drinker, Minautors, Carcharodons, Iron Hands, Grey Knights (I think), Flesh Tearers, Marines Malevolant (talk bout wearing you faults with pride!) did I forgot anybody?

 jhe90 wrote:
Inquisitors may have ultimate power but still have to be careful.
Tact, diplomacy and such serve them just as well when needing space marine or mechanicum support.

Certain impirial organisations do not react well to threats.
How many have suffered from accident, malfunction or such?
Dark angels probbly made a few disappear.

Plus the sheer amount if effort to destroy a chapter when dug into there fortress.
Look how much pounding the space wolves did take and still was not breached.

The Space Wolves Fortress-Monastery is the second-best fortress in the galaxy. Even Rogal Dorn saw it and was all like "good 'nuff", and apparently he never complemented any fortresses that he didn't build, so that was high praise coming from him. The void shields alone are so advanced that the technology to build them isn't even around anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Why does everybody keep listing the Soul Drinkers? Their books really portrayed them quite well.