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2015/03/07 23:09:42
Subject: Going to the gym just became more complicated
Iron_Captain wrote: I don't think you can say anybody can be given the 'wrong' body. That would imply someone giving out bodies and having made a mistake. The issue is with the brains, not the body.
No, the issue is with the body, just like we wouldn't tell someone who was born with only one leg "sorry, your belief that you should have two legs is a problem with your brain, just accept who you are".
That is a different issue. A normal human body has 2 legs, a body with a single leg is dysfunctional. A transgender has a perfectly normal, functional body. It is just of the opposite sex that he/she feels he/she should be.
With the missing leg, something was messed up in the formation of the body, while with a transgender, something went wrong in the formation of the brain (transgenders basically have a female brain in a male body or vice versa, right?)
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2015/03/07 23:10:42
Subject: Going to the gym just became more complicated
Iron_Captain wrote: I locker rooms should be divided according to biological sex, not sexual identity.
I mean it sounds harsh, but you can identify as the opposite sex all you want, that really is not going to change the fact that you have the body of a man and should therefore (IMO) use the men's locker room.
But what if they are intersex? or hermaphoditic. I'm sorry, but to these people, they ARE the opposite sex, they where just given the wrong body. Who are you to tell them they are not//////////
They may feel they're something different, but the things between their legs speak the truth. That is the most fair way to handle this. If you've got a penis, you use the mens room. If you've got a vagina, you use the womens room.
Black and white.
Not to them. What if they are pre-]op and have yet to be able to afford the treatments?
OR, because many Trans-men dont have thier vaginas sewed shut, they actually cant qualify as a man.
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2015/03/07 23:11:41
Subject: Re:Going to the gym just became more complicated
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Well if you're pre-op you're still whatever you are before the surgery. Simple.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Sienisoturi wrote: 1) By that logic showing extremely violent videos to children publicly should be legal, as we all have internal organs and there is nothing mystical or bad in them.
Do you understand the difference between showing extreme violence, something we all agree is morally wrong in the real world, to people who are still developing their sense of fantasy vs. reality, and seeing non-sexual nudity? When you answer this question please remember that the hypothetical child is already in a room full of naked people.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2015/03/07 23:12:44
Subject: Re:Going to the gym just became more complicated
Sienisoturi wrote: I see no reason why trangender people couldn't use the changing room according to their anatomical gender?
Because:
1) Doing that is telling someone that their gender identity is wrong. If you're a woman and someone says "go change with all the other men" that's incredibly insulting and just adds one more bit of poor treatment to a group of people that already has to deal with way too much of it.
2) It puts them in serious danger. Maybe it would be a solution in some ideal world where nobody is ever attacked for being different, but there have been way too many cases where people have violently attacked someone they didn't feel was a "real" man/woman.
1) I am fairly certain that trangender people can understand why they should use the same restroom as other people that share the same anatomical features, so i doubt that they will perceive it as an insult. Although I can understand why some of them might feel insulted, but then again, wouldn't parents feel insulted if their children were forced to see stuff they should not at that age?
2) Do you have any examples of such events occuring? Also, removing that danger would then again create another danger, as abusers could abuse this ruling to acces changing rooms they were not intendet to enter.
1: it is just genetalia, noting mystical or bad. we all have it.
2:http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/general-news/20150227/uc-santa-cruz-lgbtq-community-calls-for-change-after-attack-on-gay-student
1) By that logic showing extremely violent videos to children publicly should be legal, as we all have internal organs and there is nothing mystical or bad in them.
2) That case really has almost nothing to do with the current topic.
Whoops, that is the other case that happened this week on campus, i got confused.
But no, genetalia is all something we have and is not anything to worry about. All you are argueing is in favor of rigig puritanical beliefs.
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2015/03/07 23:13:48
Subject: Re:Going to the gym just became more complicated
Grey Templar wrote: Well if you're pre-op you're still whatever you are before the surgery. Simple.
Nothing about this is simple, life isn't black and white, and it just proves what I just said, people who have no idea what they're talking about always give nonsense opinions like they're experts or something...
Make Dolls Great Again
Clover/Trump 2016
For the United Shelves of America!
2015/03/07 23:14:38
Subject: Going to the gym just became more complicated
Iron_Captain wrote: That is a different issue. A normal human body has 2 legs, a body with a single leg is dysfunctional.
Yes, and a normal human body has a physical sex that matches the mental gender and "body map". So a body that doesn't have that match is dysfunctional.
A transgender has a perfectly normal, functional body. It is just of the opposite sex that he/she feels he/she should be.
Do you see the contradiction between these two sentences? If their body doesn't match what their brain thinks it should be then they don't have a normal, functional body.
With the missing leg, something was messed up in the formation of the body, while with a transgender, something went wrong in the formation of the brain (transgenders basically have a female brain in a male body or vice versa, right?)
You do know that the brain is part of the body, right?
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2015/03/07 23:14:58
Subject: Re:Going to the gym just became more complicated
Grey Templar wrote: Well if you're pre-op you're still whatever you are before the surgery. Simple.
But again, not to them. They are women. They are not "A guy who thinks they are a women" they are a women and should be treated as such. Heck is these women are old enough to have a gym membership, they should be old enough to know what a penis is and not care.
Stop mystifying genitals.
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2015/03/07 23:16:59
Subject: Going to the gym just became more complicated
Iron_Captain wrote: That is a different issue. A normal human body has 2 legs, a body with a single leg is dysfunctional.
Yes, and a normal human body has a physical sex that matches the mental gender and "body map". So a body that doesn't have that match is dysfunctional.
A transgender has a perfectly normal, functional body. It is just of the opposite sex that he/she feels he/she should be.
Do you see the contradiction between these two sentences? If their body doesn't match what their brain thinks it should be then they don't have a normal, functional body.
With the missing leg, something was messed up in the formation of the body, while with a transgender, something went wrong in the formation of the brain (transgenders basically have a female brain in a male body or vice versa, right?)
You do know that the brain is part of the body, right?
Yeah, but I was talking about the body apart from the brain. The rest of the body is normal and functional, it is the brain that is the problem.
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2015/03/07 23:17:34
Subject: Going to the gym just became more complicated
Nope. IT is society. They are not the ones liking something that doesnt fit the binary gender/sex system. And I for one and happy the gym revoked this womens membership.
Remember, Genetalia is just something genetic, like hair and foot size, and we dont discriminate agains red haired people and say they must use a certain facility
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2015/03/07 23:24:05
Subject: Going to the gym just became more complicated
Iron_Captain wrote: Yeah, but I was talking about the body apart from the brain. The rest of the body is normal and functional, it is the brain that is the problem.
Yes, but "the body apart from the brain" makes no sense. Your body is your body, there's no reason to draw arbitrary lines between which parts of it are legitimate problems and which aren't.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2015/03/07 23:24:45
Subject: Going to the gym just became more complicated
cincydooley wrote: I read this this my morning. Gonna be interesting to see how they legitimately distinguish between those that are actually transgendered and those that are Pervy.
Don't get any ideas HSM.
well, we dont ban pervy women from going into the womens change room, so why ban pervy men or transgenders? We dont have a lesbian + female bathroom or gay + male bathroom.
uni sex everything, put up all stalls and a couple urinals, do it in a stall if you are so self concious about others.
then people can complain about that for a bit.
2015/03/07 23:27:57
Subject: Re:Going to the gym just became more complicated
Is there an option where no one tries to murder me?
You could say that about any reason when it comes to bigotry, but a lot of people never deal with bigotry so nonsense like that is often a suggestion.
At what time do you go to the gym? Go during the day, grab a friend to go with you, be in a crowded gym.
Unless you're dealing with a crazy radical, no one is going to try something in the middle of the day when people could walk in at any moment.
Once again, this article was about one woman in the entire gym getting freaked out by someone's mantanea. I hate to break it to you, but most people just. don't. care.
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
2015/03/07 23:30:05
Subject: Re:Going to the gym just became more complicated
Is there an option where no one tries to murder me?
You could say that about any reason when it comes to bigotry, but a lot of people never deal with bigotry so nonsense like that is often a suggestion.
At what time do you go to the gym? Go during the day, grab a friend to go with you, be in a crowded gym.
Unless you're dealing with a crazy radical, no one is going to try something in the middle of the day when people could walk in at any moment.
Once again, this article was about one woman in the entire gym getting freaked out by someone's mantanea. I hate to break it to you, but most people just. don't. care.
Just an example, didn't quite know how to respond to that whole "just try and kill them back" it was one of the dumbest things I have heard.
Make Dolls Great Again
Clover/Trump 2016
For the United Shelves of America!
2015/03/07 23:30:25
Subject: Re:Going to the gym just became more complicated
Side note, read the comments, they are surprisingly tame for a Fox news article. Athough the thing about a man killing any guy who goes into the womens changing room just upset me more than it should. Hey guys, want to know something funny? Iran is more accepting of trans people that america. IRAN!!!!!! Even the clergy say it is ok. Go the 7;20
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/07 23:30:48
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2015/03/07 23:32:07
Subject: Going to the gym just became more complicated
Iron_Captain wrote: Yeah, but I was talking about the body apart from the brain. The rest of the body is normal and functional, it is the brain that is the problem.
Yes, but "the body apart from the brain" makes no sense. Your body is your body, there's no reason to draw arbitrary lines between which parts of it are legitimate problems and which aren't.
That makes sense.
hotsauceman1 wrote:Nope. IT is society. They are not the ones liking something that doesnt fit the binary gender/sex system. And I for one and happy the gym revoked this womens membership.
Remember, Genetalia is just something genetic, like hair and foot size, and we dont discriminate agains red haired people and say they must use a certain facility
Genitals are different from foot size or hair colour because at one point in history mankind decided that was so.
How can society be wrong? Society is made up of the cumulative values and opinions of mankind, if you disagree with that it is your problem, not that of society.
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2015/03/07 23:33:05
Subject: Re:Going to the gym just became more complicated
Sienisoturi wrote: 1) I am fairly certain that trangender people can understand why they should use the same restroom as other people that share the same anatomical features, so i doubt that they will perceive it as an insult.
People who are actually transgendered and have to experience that insult disagree with you. And perhaps instead of just assuming that everyone agrees with you about the importance about using the "right" restroom you could explain why it's such a big deal? Maybe I'm just really strange, but when I'm in a public restroom I'm there to do my business and get out, I'm not going around inspecting what everyone else is doing.
A. The current phycological census is that seeing naked adults with opposite anatomical features can be harmful for the child. B. Do you have any evidence that transgender people feel insulted by that?
Although I can understand why some of them might feel insulted, but then again, wouldn't parents feel insulted if their children were forced to see stuff they should not at that age?
Here's a better idea: stop acting like seeing naked people is the worst possible thing that can happen to a child, especially since they're already in a whole room full of naked people and have probably seen their opposite-sex parent naked.
That that it is not the worst thing does not remove the fact that it is bad. Also age matters, children generally stop seeing their parents naked at the age of 4-8
2) Do you have any examples of such events occuring?
No reason to be aggressive. You make a statement, you provide the evidence.
Also, removing that danger would then again create another danger, as abusers could abuse this ruling to acces changing rooms they were not intendet to enter.
It doesn't create a danger because the danger already exists. A sign saying "men/women only" does not stop abusers from ignoring the sign and entering.
Yes, but then it reduces the danger if only people with the same anatomical features are allowed in one changing room.
2015/03/07 23:34:08
Subject: Going to the gym just became more complicated
Iron_Captain wrote: Yeah, but I was talking about the body apart from the brain. The rest of the body is normal and functional, it is the brain that is the problem.
Yes, but "the body apart from the brain" makes no sense. Your body is your body, there's no reason to draw arbitrary lines between which parts of it are legitimate problems and which aren't.
That makes sense.
hotsauceman1 wrote:Nope. IT is society. They are not the ones liking something that doesnt fit the binary gender/sex system. And I for one and happy the gym revoked this womens membership.
Remember, Genetalia is just something genetic, like hair and foot size, and we dont discriminate agains red haired people and say they must use a certain facility
Genitals are different from foot size or hair colour because at one point in history mankind decided that was so.
How can society be wrong? Society is made up of the cumulative values and opinions of mankind, if you disagree with that it is your problem, not that of society.
and when American society felt for a long time that black people were less and didn't see a problem in them getting lynched... that wasn't societies problem?
mankind has terrible values and terrible opinions, humans are terrible to eachother.
society can easily be wrong.
they are wrong.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/07 23:37:05
Make Dolls Great Again
Clover/Trump 2016
For the United Shelves of America!
2015/03/07 23:34:24
Subject: Going to the gym just became more complicated
Iron_Captain wrote: Yeah, but I was talking about the body apart from the brain. The rest of the body is normal and functional, it is the brain that is the problem.
Yes, but "the body apart from the brain" makes no sense. Your body is your body, there's no reason to draw arbitrary lines between which parts of it are legitimate problems and which aren't.
That makes sense.
hotsauceman1 wrote:Nope. IT is society. They are not the ones liking something that doesnt fit the binary gender/sex system. And I for one and happy the gym revoked this womens membership.
Remember, Genetalia is just something genetic, like hair and foot size, and we dont discriminate agains red haired people and say they must use a certain facility
Genitals are different from foot size or hair colour because at one point in history mankind decided that was so.
How can society be wrong? Society is made up of the cumulative values and opinions of mankind, if you disagree with that it is your problem, not that of society.
Just like they said at one point black people where inferior. Societies change, and this one needs to.
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2015/03/07 23:39:22
Subject: Going to the gym just became more complicated
Is there an option where no one tries to murder me?
You could say that about any reason when it comes to bigotry, but a lot of people never deal with bigotry so nonsense like that is often a suggestion.
At what time do you go to the gym? Go during the day, grab a friend to go with you, be in a crowded gym.
Unless you're dealing with a crazy radical, no one is going to try something in the middle of the day when people could walk in at any moment.
Once again, this article was about one woman in the entire gym getting freaked out by someone's mantanea. I hate to break it to you, but most people just. don't. care.
Just an example, didn't quite know how to respond to that whole "just try and kill them back" it was one of the dumbest things I have heard.
It's a quote from firefly; this lady was saying if she goes back to her home planet unwed, she'ed be killed. The main character was telling her if someone tries to kill her just try to kill them right back.
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
2015/03/07 23:44:05
Subject: Going to the gym just became more complicated
I wouldn't want my daughters or son in a vulnerable position with someone who claims to identify as a woman or man but is really just looking for easy victims.
I would venture 95 of parents believe the same way.
2015/03/07 23:44:38
Subject: Going to the gym just became more complicated
Iron_Captain wrote: Yeah, but I was talking about the body apart from the brain. The rest of the body is normal and functional, it is the brain that is the problem.
Yes, but "the body apart from the brain" makes no sense. Your body is your body, there's no reason to draw arbitrary lines between which parts of it are legitimate problems and which aren't.
That makes sense.
hotsauceman1 wrote:Nope. IT is society. They are not the ones liking something that doesnt fit the binary gender/sex system. And I for one and happy the gym revoked this womens membership.
Remember, Genetalia is just something genetic, like hair and foot size, and we dont discriminate agains red haired people and say they must use a certain facility
Genitals are different from foot size or hair colour because at one point in history mankind decided that was so.
How can society be wrong? Society is made up of the cumulative values and opinions of mankind, if you disagree with that it is your problem, not that of society.
and when American society felt for a long time that black people were less and didn't see a problem in them getting lynched... that wasn't societies problem?
mankind has terrible values and terrible opinions, humans are terrible to eachother.
society can easily be wrong.
they are wrong.
Right and wrong are subjective and always change. In our present-day Western society, discrimation of black people is considered wrong. But in American society of that time, it was not wrong. It only became wrong when Americans decided it was so. (which from what I learnt about it was a very long gradual process)
Society can not be wrong by its own standards. If you think society is wrong, you essentially are already part of a different society. "Society" in general can not be wrong.
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2015/03/07 23:46:45
Subject: Going to the gym just became more complicated
Iron_Captain wrote: Yeah, but I was talking about the body apart from the brain. The rest of the body is normal and functional, it is the brain that is the problem.
Yes, but "the body apart from the brain" makes no sense. Your body is your body, there's no reason to draw arbitrary lines between which parts of it are legitimate problems and which aren't.
That makes sense.
hotsauceman1 wrote:Nope. IT is society. They are not the ones liking something that doesnt fit the binary gender/sex system. And I for one and happy the gym revoked this womens membership.
Remember, Genetalia is just something genetic, like hair and foot size, and we dont discriminate agains red haired people and say they must use a certain facility
Genitals are different from foot size or hair colour because at one point in history mankind decided that was so.
How can society be wrong? Society is made up of the cumulative values and opinions of mankind, if you disagree with that it is your problem, not that of society.
and when American society felt for a long time that black people were less and didn't see a problem in them getting lynched... that wasn't societies problem?
mankind has terrible values and terrible opinions, humans are terrible to eachother.
society can easily be wrong.
they are wrong.
Right and wrong are subjective and always change. In our present-day Western society, discrimation of black people is considered wrong. But in American society of that time, it was not wrong. It only became wrong when Americans decided it was so. (which from what I learnt about it was a very long gradual process)
Society can not be wrong by its own standards. If you think society is wrong, you essentially are already part of a different society. "Society" in general can not be wrong.
Yes it can, if it was right then we'd all be on the same page.
Make Dolls Great Again
Clover/Trump 2016
For the United Shelves of America!
2015/03/07 23:47:25
Subject: Going to the gym just became more complicated
Relapse wrote: I wouldn't want my daughters or son in a vulnerable position with someone who claims to identify as a woman or man but is really just looking for easy victims.
I would venture 95 of parents believe the same way.
And at some point parents didn't want their white daughter with a black man who said he was nice but who was really just looking for easy victims.
2015/03/07 23:47:36
Subject: Going to the gym just became more complicated
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