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 Col. Tartleton wrote:
By the same logic quoting a passage from a book you didn't write without permission should be illegal even if you properly cite it.

What if I want my Games Workshop models cast in pewter for my own personal use? They don't offer me the models in metal but I have the capability to do it myself. So naturally I buy a box of Witch Elves for $60 just like they ask and then I make a mold of the sprue and pour pewter. If I make a single cast of a tank in resin to chop up for terrain is that fine? What about two? Ten? A hundred? When does it become a crime?

Its just the state enforcing artificial restrictions on efficient businesses to protect inefficient businesses at the expense of the consumer and to the benefit of the overpaid executives. Whether its beneficial long term or not for non essential industries like toys to get these sort of intellectual protections is up for debate. What isn't up for debate is the fact legality and morality are not intrinsically synonymous.

No, you're neither stealing or a criminal.

As I seem to post on a regular basis -

Recasting is not a criminal act, it is IP infringement and therefore a civil matter, and it isn't stealing as that requires an involved party to have their property taken without permission, whereas I assume, in most cases, the 'master' is obtained legitimately.

Neither is it counterfeiting unless they are sold as original and for a comparable price to RRP, as counterfeiting has a crucial element with regard to intent to deceive.

From a legal standpoint, I've never managed to find anything to suggest that purchasing them is illegal in any of the countries most commonly represented on Dakka, or at the very least only breaks a "minor" law that is unlikely to attract the attention of enforcement at the scale a typical hobbyist would be likely involved.

In reality, it all boils down to personal morality, and whether an individual feels it is wrong enough to pass up the opportunity to save significant sums.

Without getting into the legal side of what constitutes 'fair use', morally there's a clear difference between recasting for your own private use and recasting in bulk to sell on and undercut the manufacturer.


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Purchasing counterfeit goods isn't entitely legal because Customs will seize and destroy them if they spot them. I doubt GW recasts would be spotted but if they were then there's a good chance you will lose them and you'll have little recourse.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
I don't think 'free market' stretches to people recasting and passing their copies off as the real thing.

As far as my experience does, they (almost) never do.

In fact, they usually go out of their way to point out they're selling replicas and if you want the "real" product for the full prize, you should buy the official product.

That's why it doesn't count as counterfeiting, despite what the most ardent GW supporters will claim in each and every one of this kind of threads.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Without getting into the legal side of what constitutes 'fair use', morally there's a clear difference between recasting for your own private use and recasting in bulk to sell on and undercut the manufacturer.

I agree completely. It's like the guy who in the P&M section who was re-casting some of the X-Wing ships, but was doing so quite roughly just using one of those jelly-cast things, and then using the results for a debris field of smashed up old ships.

I don't think most people would resent or have trouble with that. But, casting up copies and selling them in quantity is an entirely different issue.

 Korinov wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
I don't think 'free market' stretches to people recasting and passing their copies off as the real thing.

As far as my experience does, they (almost) never do.

In fact, they usually go out of their way to point out they're selling replicas and if you want the "real" product for the full prize, you should buy the official product.

That's why it doesn't count as counterfeiting, despite what the most ardent GW supporters will claim in each and every one of this kind of threads.

I'm not a GW supporter of any sort, and I don't think the 'replicas not counterfeits' argument if going to fly for any meaningful purpose when it's just recasting someone else's product.

 Col. Tartleton wrote:
By the same logic quoting a passage from a book you didn't write without permission should be illegal even if you properly cite it.

Actually it can be. There's a "fair use" exemption to allow limited quoting in certain situations, but there's no blanket rule that says "if you cite it you're ok".

What if I want my Games Workshop models cast in pewter for my own personal use?

Then too bad. You don't always get what you want.

Its just the state enforcing artificial restrictions on efficient businesses to protect inefficient businesses at the expense of the consumer and to the benefit of the overpaid executives.

No, it's simple recognition of the fact that investing in new IP requires protection for that investment. It will always cost more to create new IP than to copy existing work (literal copying in the case of recasters or digital piracy, not just stealing general ideas), so a dishonest company will always be able to steal that IP and create cheaper products. If you remove IP protection and allow anyone to legally sell copies of anything they want then why would anyone have an incentive to create new IP?

 Peregrine wrote:

What if I want my Games Workshop models cast in pewter for my own personal use?

Then too bad. You don't always get what you want.

Out of interest Peregrine, what did you think of copying your music onto cassette tapes back in the day, or copying onto a CD so you could have a separate copy for the car?

I see it as a clear denigration between copying for personal use, and copying to sell. I know both can technically be 'illegal' in the eyes of the law, but I mean in terms of how people view something as morally acceptable or not.

 Pacific wrote:
I see it as a clear denigration between copying for personal use, and copying to sell. I know both can technically be 'illegal' in the eyes of the law, but I mean in terms of how people view something as morally acceptable or not.

Sure, and I'm not saying you should be thrown in prison for the rest of your life if you copy something for personal use in a different format*. My objection is to this apparent assumption that if you want X and can't get it legally then you're entitled to do whatever it takes to get X some other way. And not having X just isn't an acceptable answer.

*Note that this is different from recasting something for personal use because you don't want to buy multiple copies of it, which I don't approve of at all.

Of course, the obvious counter to that is if item X is available at price A which is higher than I'm willing to pay (regardless of affordability,) and also at the much lower price B, and I'm not breaking any laws by purchasing item X at price B, why the hell would I pay price A?

 Azreal13 wrote:
Of course, the obvious counter to that is if item X is available at price A which is higher than I'm willing to pay (regardless of affordability,) and also at the much lower price B, and I'm not breaking any laws by purchasing item X at price B, why the hell would I pay price A?

Because you have moral standards beyond "I'm not going to be arrested for this"?

 Azreal13 wrote:
Of course, the obvious counter to that is if item X is available at price A which is higher than I'm willing to pay (regardless of affordability,) and also at the much lower price B, and I'm not breaking any laws by purchasing item X at price B, why the hell would I pay price A?

No real argument against, as long as you're fine with helping out people who are dodgy.

I have a couple of recast parts acquired in swaps etc, they don't keep me awake at night. But I'm well aware that supporting people who rip off IP is not morally good. Morally grey, yes.

People selling recasts are not helping out those who are short of money, they're simply parasitical.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Of course, the obvious counter to that is if item X is available at price A which is higher than I'm willing to pay (regardless of affordability,) and also at the much lower price B, and I'm not breaking any laws by purchasing item X at price B, why the hell would I pay price A?

Because you have moral standards beyond "I'm not going to be arrested for this"?

Not in this context, no.

But then, it's been established in the past you don't deal well outside of binary arguments, so any sort of discussion with you on this subject has no point.


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 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Of course, the obvious counter to that is if item X is available at price A which is higher than I'm willing to pay (regardless of affordability,) and also at the much lower price B, and I'm not breaking any laws by purchasing item X at price B, why the hell would I pay price A?

No real argument against, as long as you're fine with helping out people who are dodgy.

Citation needed.

If someone recasts because they need to supplement a poor income, or to earn an income altogether, and conducts themselves in business in an honest fashion, and has been raised in a culture where this sort of behaviour is considered normal, how are they dodgy?

I'm not saying it's impossible that they're dodgy, but I think that you need to support that assumption with some facts.

 Azreal13 wrote:


Citation needed.

If someone recasts because they need to supplement a poor income, or to earn an income altogether, and conducts themselves in business in an honest fashion, and has been raised in a culture where this sort of behaviour is considered normal, how are they dodgy?

I'm not saying it's impossible that they're dodgy, but I think that you need to support that assumption with some facts.

Committing a minor crime because you're short of money doesn't absolve you. IP theft is IP theft, recognised in all the major legal systems worldwide, including PRC.

.As we have seen so many times, you seem fine with people stealing GW's IP because you don't like GW. I doubt there's one recaster, anywhere, who isn't aware of exactly what they are doing. Yes, they can get away with it in a largely corrupt system, doesn't make it OK.

If you're claiming they're all Robin Hoods, trying to feed their downtrodden family, from a culture where all property is theft, please provide a citation as it will be entertaining.

I don't particularly like GW, but even stealing from someone we don't like doesn't mean it's not IP theft. Which is a crime - however you frame it.

Just as a side note, providing false testimony under oath in a trial is also a crime. It seems the almighty GW is not beyond that when they want to go against third party manufacturers.

Regarding "dodgy" practices, let's not even get started on that.

And by the way, I'm not trying to use the "stealing from thieves is ok" argument here, it's just people are being told to uphold some "moral standards" by not buying recasted products originally designed by a company which has repeatedly proven to not abide to any kind of moral or ethical standards beyond "I do as I like".

GW is simply reaping what they have beein sowing for years.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Of course, the obvious counter to that is if item X is available at price A which is higher than I'm willing to pay (regardless of affordability,) and also at the much lower price B, and I'm not breaking any laws by purchasing item X at price B, why the hell would I pay price A?

So I suppose you're going to claim that if A were 'low enough,' you'd buy FW then?

Are you lying to us, or yourself?

Price is A is irrelvant, because B, by its nature, is always going to be cheaper. You will never buy A.

Guys, he just wanted to know if they where recasts, that is all.
Lets leave the Is it wrong/is it right debates to the little devil and angel on our shoulder

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:


Citation needed.

If someone recasts because they need to supplement a poor income, or to earn an income altogether, and conducts themselves in business in an honest fashion, and has been raised in a culture where this sort of behaviour is considered normal, how are they dodgy?

I'm not saying it's impossible that they're dodgy, but I think that you need to support that assumption with some facts.

Committing a minor crime because you're short of money doesn't absolve you. IP theft is IP theft, recognised in all the major legal systems worldwide, including PRC.

.As we have seen so many times, you seem fine with people stealing GW's IP because you don't like GW. I doubt there's one recaster, anywhere, who isn't aware of exactly what they are doing. Yes, they can get away with it in a largely corrupt system, doesn't make it OK.

If you're claiming they're all Robin Hoods, trying to feed their downtrodden family, from a culture where all property is theft, please provide a citation as it will be entertaining.

I don't particularly like GW, but even stealing from someone we don't like doesn't mean it's not IP theft. Which is a crime - however you frame it.

No, sorry, you made an assumption based on, apparently, little or no fact and I asked you to back it up. You don't get to ask me to prove the speculation I made which, if true, totally disproves your assumption.

Burden of proof and all that.

Equally "committing a minor crime because you're short of money doesn't absolve you?"

If (and I freely admit this is an assumption, but, hey, it appears we're at a point in the discussion where we aren't bothering supporting things with facts) recasting some toys is the difference between paying the rent or feeding the family and not? Well, I'd absolve them without a second thought, but I guess it's easier to condemn if they're all Triads in neon lit penthouses sat around drinking imported vodka and laughing at how rich we're making them.

You're right I find recaster practices much easier to tolerate because of who they're targeting, but let's not forget GW aren't above playing dirty in that arena either.




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 Bookwrack wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Of course, the obvious counter to that is if item X is available at price A which is higher than I'm willing to pay (regardless of affordability,) and also at the much lower price B, and I'm not breaking any laws by purchasing item X at price B, why the hell would I pay price A?

So I suppose you're going to claim that if A were 'low enough,' you'd buy FW then?

Are you lying to us, or yourself?

Price is A is irrelvant, because B, by its nature, is always going to be cheaper. You will never buy A.

Re-read my post.

I clearly said "if price A is higher than I'm willing to pay" if it wasn't higher than I was willing to pay, or, more pertinently, if it was closer to price B, then absolutely I'd buy real. (You've also made the assumption I don't buy real, remember, this is a discussion not real life.)

Why do you think the likes of Steam and itunes make so much cash when what they sell is freely available? It's because most people, given the opportunity, are prepared to buy genuine if they feel they're getting value, piracy is generally a symptom of a market where the pricing is out of whack with what people are willing to pay, and are sufficiently high that there's headroom for a margin for knock offs.

Sure, there'll always be a few who will pirate regardless, but most people are happy to pay a fair price for fair quality, myself included.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Not in this context, no.

At least you're honest about it. Now we can move to the next step of "I buy recasts because I don't care about anything besides getting a cheaper price" and stop presenting recasts as some kind of moral crusade against GW.

But then, it's been established in the past you don't deal well outside of binary arguments, so any sort of discussion with you on this subject has no point.

Only because you define any situation where I don't agree with your justifications for buying recasts as a "binary argument". The fact that I don't agree with you doesn't mean I have some horrible inability to understand things that aren't black and white, it just means that I think your claim to a gray area is nonsense.


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 Korinov wrote:
GW is simply reaping what they have beein sowing for years.

So now we get the "GW deserves it" argument? How about, if GW is so horrible that they deserve to be the victim of IP theft and recasting, you just stop buying GW products entirely? Stop buying recasts, stop playing GW games, and support a better company instead.


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 Azreal13 wrote:
Why do you think the likes of Steam and itunes make so much cash when what they sell is freely available?

Because there are a lot of people who won't pirate stuff at all. They buy legitimately if they want it, and if it's too expensive they just accept that they won't have it.

It's because most people, given the opportunity, are prepared to buy genuine if they feel they're getting value, piracy is generally a symptom of a market where the pricing is out of whack with what people are willing to pay, and are sufficiently high that there's headroom for a margin for knock offs.

No, piracy is a symptom of a market where piracy is easy. If it was all about some kind of moral crusade against high prices then you wouldn't expect to see things like piracy of cheap games by independent developers, music from bands that oppose the RIAA's abuses, etc. Instead virtually everything you could think of pirating is available to download. This pretty strongly suggests that it has very little to do with "fair value" and a lot to do with selfish people who will always pirate if it saves them money.

I never said I buy recasts.

Go-go Peregrine Assumptatron!

 Azreal13 wrote:
I never said I buy recasts.

Go-go Peregrine Assumptatron!

Sigh. I guess you don't understand the difference between the general "you" and the specific? Whether you personally buy recasts you're still giving the same arguments in defense of doing it that people who buy recasts give.

Not when somebody is addressing me directly, no.

That's why, in those circumstances one uses the term "one" rather than "you."

The English language is a wonderful thing when properly harnessed.

The Chinese AlieExpres used to have a lot of re-cast stuff but since they went (or want to go?) global most of them have vanished.

The morality of recasting aside, that they are present proofs that GW/FW prices are going into the luxury segment, because you don't see
much fake goods of low end products.

GW stuff defies most attempts to classify it as a luxury good, essentially it's just a mainstream product, but more expensive.

Suck it up ladies. Great models, even better casting and sooooo much cheaper than GW and FW pricing.

Can't wait to table your army with my 30 dollar Flying Hive Tyrant.

I see the "I copy/pasted my moral code from the law book" crowd has found this thread.

Guess what, parroting rules that the rich and powerful put in place to keep everyone in their place doesn't give you any sort of moral high ground.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I see the "I copy/pasted my moral code from the law book" crowd has found this thread.

Guess what, parroting rules that the rich and powerful put in place to keep everyone in their place doesn't give you any sort of moral high ground.

Is this infantile analysis supposed to be it?


You obviously have a total lack of knowledge of copyright; perhaps you work in an area where your work has no value, so no-one wants to copy it?

As anyone with the most minimal interest in this area knows, the key principles of copyright law were established by artists, back in the 1700s. They freed artists from having to rely on rich patrons, which had previously been the case. Your 'understanding' of how copyright laws were introduced is 100 per cent wrong.

Once again, for those hard of understanding, I actually have a couple of 'dodgy' items so don't claim to be on the moral high ground. But aggrandising recasters ain't sticking it to the man, it's supporting dodgy vendors, who rip off a load off people, as well as the Evil Empire of GW.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Neither is it counterfeiting unless they are sold as original and for a comparable price to RRP, as counterfeiting has a crucial element with regard to intent to deceive.

Aren't those movies and software burnt to DVD's, labelled with a sharpie and sold on the street considered counterfeit? I don't think you could argue there's any more intent to deceive, no one is going to be fooled in to thinking they've bought a genuine copy of the movie, but I still thought that was considered counterfeiting.

Actually I've lived off of IP money most of my life.

I was also around to see the evolution of digital piracy in its entirety, from copying Commodore-64 tapes onwards, and the concurrent evolution of copyright enforcement at the hands of the very same corporate parasite middle-men whose margins jack up prices so high as to make piracy an attractive option in the first place. I think any artist who sides with 'the man' in this debacle is a complete slow.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Neither is it counterfeiting unless they are sold as original and for a comparable price to RRP, as counterfeiting has a crucial element with regard to intent to deceive.

Aren't those movies and software burnt to DVD's, labelled with a sharpie and sold on the street considered counterfeit? I don't think you could argue there's any more intent to deceive, no one is going to be fooled in to thinking they've bought a genuine copy of the movie, but I still thought that was considered counterfeiting.

That's Piracy, rather than Counterfeiting, I think. IANAL, but as far as I've been able to tell (and these threads come up often enough that I have spent a few mins looking around) to be actually guilty of counterfeiting, you've got to be explicitly trying to pass the fake off as original.

Which of course doesn't mean you're doing nothing wrong if you're being honest about them being fake, and it doesn't make it wrong to describe them as counterfeit in a broader sense, but, again, AFAICS, to be guilty of the crime of counterfeiting, there must be an intent to deceive the customer.

Well the arguments so far bring this to my mind .



Or this



Anyway piracy is piracy no matter who is the IP owner is and how expensive is the staff he sells. It makes "sense" for the recasters to eyeball companies that have really high prices since it will be easier to find customers for the copied products and also the offered discount will still leave

them with a profitable margin.