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Original suggestion in the Spoiler, followed by my current suggestion (as it stands after 8 pages of discussion)
Spoiler:
Some units are great, others are currently pointless. The proposed changes are to make the entire codex equally viable, to introduce variety back into the Codex. This is not about balance between codexes, and assumes other Codexes are also rounded out.
HQ Brother-Captain: A bit over priced, -25 points
Brother-Captain Stern: Too expensive for what he does, like the generic, but with set powers, and a bonus to Banishment -35 points
Brotherhood Champion: Not nearly as useful as a Brother Captain -50ish points would be good for him too.
Castellan Crowe: Needs a big cost decrease as he's only good in Challenges, with no AP in general combat. I would say -50pts
Techmarine: Would benefit from having a Storm Shield upgrade option. Add optional Storm Shield upgrade.
Troop Strike Squads: Their primary role is to provide Teleport Homers for the Terminators who Deep Strike in. Trade Deep Strike for Infiltrate Trade Nemesis Force Sword, Frag, Krak, & Psyk-out Grenades for decrease in point cost.
Elite Paladin Squad: They cost way to much for how easily they die. Needs access to Storm Shields (purchased like any other equipment).
Dreadnought: Lackluster and expensive. As Anti-air they would have a strong role in the Grey Knights codex. Replace their Autocannon upgrade options with Hydra Autocannons (standard Autocannon + Skyfire).
Heavy Purgation Squad: Designated shooting, so they should be good at it. Trade Nemesis Force Swords, Frag, Krak, & Psyk-out Grenades, and Night Vision for Relentless and *Perfect Timing from Divination
*Originally suggested having Ignores Cover, but that could be too much.
Current Version with explanations
Daemonology (Sanctic): The #4 power should be replaced with one that improves the shooting efficiency of the Psyker’s unit (does not affect Psychic shooting attacks). Purge Soul isn’t useful, and having a power that improves shooting, that Purgation Squads could start out with instead of Hammerhand could make them worth taking. Thus only the Purgation Squads and the occasional non-named HQ generating random Sanctic powers would have access to this shooting buff. 4. Psychic Infusion …………………..Warp Charge 1 The Grey Knights focus their psychic might through their blessed ammunition to increase its deadly potential. Psychic Infusion is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, the AP of weapons fired by the psyker's unit are improved by 1.
Grey Knight Chapter Tactics: The Aegis Prefered Enemy (Daemons) Psyker Mastery Level 1, with Purity of Spirit These Special Rules apply across the Codex the same way the Space Marines’ Chapter Tactics do. The problem the Grey Knights face with this is that several of their units are charged around 25 points for their Chapter Tactics which should be free (Compare these to the Iron Hands Chapter Tactics if you think they’re too much).
Brother-Captain – 25 = 125 points
Brother-Captain Stern – 25 = 160 points
Dreadnought – 25 = 100 points
Brotherhood Champion – 50 = 100 points Stats & Equipment like the Brother-Captain (also charged for Chapter Tactics), But he suffers from reduced survivability (-1W), reduced shooting (-1BS, and no Special Weapon options), reduced Attacks (-1A), and all he gets back is special rules that only really matter in challenges (additional – 25 points).
Castellan Crowe – 50 = 125 points Most of the same problems as the Brotherhood Champion (still charged for Chapter Tactics), but he has WS8, I6, 3A, but NO AP for general close combat Whereas the Brotherhood Champion only shines in challenges, Crowe is only useful at all in Challenges. He’s better in those challenges than a Brotherhood Champion, but the expense of being useful anywhere else completely counter-balances that benefit (additional – 25 points)
Strike Squads need Rites of Teleportation and reduced Deep Strike scatter to be part of their profile. Alpha-strike with Teleport Homers is the only role they could fill, yet they can’t currently do that with any sort of efficiency unless you take a NSF with the Strike Squads and put the Terminators in a CAD, and even then, having full scatter means it is easy for an opponent to deploy to deny the Deep Striking units useful placesto land.
Paladins at their current price need Sanctuary. They are far too expensive relative to their survivability. The plethora of Melta and Plasma in the meta means they often die just as quickly as the generic Terminators, which cost half as much. Sanctuary would help alleviate this problem.
Dreadnoughts need a special rule that allows them to fire at both fliers and ground targets with their full Ballistic Skill. The Grey Knights don’t have any deployable anti-air, and the Dreadnoughts don’t currently perform any function well relative to their cost. Making them anti-air would be perfect. I would also replace their Sanctuary Psychic power with my proposed “Psychic Infusion” power.
Purgation Squads would have my proposed “Psychic Infusion” power instead of Hammerhand. This compounded with fixing the Psilencer and Psycannon would make the Purgation Squads worth taking. As it is, they’re essentially Strike Squads without Deep Strike, being as their Special weapons aren’t worth taking in the current meta.
The Land Raider Redeemer needs some form of Torrent on its sponson weapons. This change would easily justify making its price equal to the other two. This could be achieved by replacing the Flamestorm Cannons with Heavy Incinerators, or by adding an optional upgrade that gives the Flamestorm Cannons some form of Torrent (my suggestion gave it a 6” Torrent). The main difference is that making it a Heavy Incinerator reduces them to AP4, while giving a version of Torrent to the Flamestorm Cannons leaves them at AP3.
All Land Raider Variants should gain the Venerable Special Rule.
The “Grey Knights Brotherhood” Formation is worthless. Taking it with no upgrades is 2045 points, which is far too big to be used, even if all of the units in it were useful. It would be infinitely better if it were replaced with a Detachment of Formations like the Necrons and Eldar currently have. (How this Detachment of Formations would work is a big enough topic for its own thread. My current suggestion is on pg 8 of this thread, but I'm open to better suggestions)
Skitarii should be incorporated into the Grey Knights Codex. All of this nonsense with "sub-Codexes" is crap. The Grey Knights and Mechanicus work closely enough to be in the same Codex, and the Scitarii fill the rolls the Grey Knights were deliberately left unable to fill.
Now the big points of contestation…
Special Weapons: The Incinerator is fine, but the Psilencer can’t statistically kill anything of note before it’s wielder is killed, and the Psycannon is a liability instead of a benefit on any unit that’s not Relentless. So my proposed weapons:
Incinerator: Template, S6, AP4, Assault 1, Soulblaze (No change)
Psilencer: 24", S4, AP4, Assault 3, Psychic Tear Psychic Tear: The raw psychic energies being focused through the Psilencer tear flesh and machine as it blasts pieces of them into oblivion. For each Hit a unit takes from this weapon, roll a D6. On a 1, nothing happens. On a 2-5, the unit suffers a single Wound/Glance. On a 6, the Target suffers a single Wound/Penetrating Hit
Psycannon: 36", S7, AP3, Salvo 3/4, Rending
This message was edited 16 times. Last update was at 2015/05/03 14:13:55
If you want to introduce variety back into the Codex back off on the all-GK-all-the-time setup the 5e book tried to push. Bring back Inquisitorial content, Stormtroopers, that sort of thing.
I really like the idea of Purgations having ignores cover but I think it should be in the form of a psychic power like the old Purgations.
Perhaps some GK units could have a unique primaris power kind of like how chaos units have an extra primaris power (I forget what it's called).
- The Purgations have a primaris that allows them to ignore cover and line of sight.
- Dreadnoughts have psybolt ammo back in the form of a primaris power instead of Sanctuary.
- Strike Squads can have Warp Quake back.
- Paladins can have their witchfire back.
- Purifiers are fine as is. Probably the only unit that retained it's unique power from the previous codex.
AnomanderRake wrote: If you want to introduce variety back into the Codex back off on the all-GK-all-the-time setup the 5e book tried to push. Bring back Inquisitorial content, Stormtroopers, that sort of thing.
That wouldn't fix the poor balance for the units still in the Codex. I'm all for bringing back units that were stripped away, but the core, the Grey Knights proper, needs to be balanced.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
curran12 wrote: And free Relentless and Ignores Cover for purgation?
This is not rounding out, unless round means obese in its power.
They're supposed to be the Grey Knights' Devistators, and they suck at that role. And they aren't getting them for free, they're paying for them by stripping off the gear and abilities that aren't related to shooting.
The people who said that Ignores Cover for the Purgation Squad should be a power instead of a base ability, I can agree with that. The Divination power "Perfect Timing" does that perfectly.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bharring wrote: Infiltrate on some of the shiniest and biggest infantry in the game?
Are other armies blind?
Other armies have Scouts, and they infiltrate, and have much better shooting options than Storm Bolters. Infiltrating Strike Squads as I suggested would simply make them more expensive versions of the other factions' Scouts (with different gear).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/13 19:17:29
For Strike Squads, how about giving a special rule to Grand Masters that gives Strike Squads in the army the 'Scout' special rule. Call it 'Grand Strategy' like in the old codex. This allows them to stay the same while giving them the usefulness of providing teleport homers up the field. It'll also encourage people to actually take a Grand Master instead of double Librarians.
They're supposed to be the Grey Knights' Devistators, and they suck at that role. And they aren't getting them for free, they're paying for them by stripping off the gear and abilities that aren't related to shooting.
So they are "paying" for better shooting by giving up the weapons and abilities that they almost NEVER use? That is not balancing, that is creating a fake difference to justify bloating power. "But they are worse in at melee now!" is the line you throw out, more or less, but the issue is that nobody uses Purgations for melee, and their value is NOT in melee. It never has been in melee. It is not an equivalent loss in power to justify the massive increase in shooting.
Bharring wrote: It was an entirely fluff-centric concern. Scout squads are usually not as flashy as normal battle brothers.
I just couldn't imagine any faction being slow enough to not notice giants in bright and shiny armor marching up to them.
Kinda a hillariois mental image, though!
It's not so much marching in, as being that they Teleport in before the battle, and secure the location for the Teleport Homers.
But you are right, it is a comically absurd idea to picture Space Marines of any type sneaking past anything.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
curran12 wrote: So they are "paying" for better shooting by giving up the weapons and abilities that they almost NEVER use? That is not balancing, that is creating a fake difference to justify bloating power. "But they are worse in at melee now!" is the line you throw out, more or less, but the issue is that nobody uses Purgations for melee, and their value is NOT in melee. It never has been in melee. It is not an equivalent loss in power to justify the massive increase in shooting.
You are fixated on this (incorrect) assumption that the Grey Knights are overpowered. Other factions have units that specialize. They're good at one thing and not good at others. If I compare the current Purgation Squad to one such specialized shooting unit, you would say that the other unit of course should be better at shooting because that is all it does. the Current Purgation Squads don't do anything well, and my proposal was to make them a designated shooting unit, like they were intended to be.
The proposed changes do not make the changed units any more powerful than the units I did not propose changes for. And the units for which I have not proposed changes are the ones being used in competative play. And guess what, they lose as many games as they win, which proves that they are not over powered. If every unit in the codex had the same power relative to cost, it would not make the codex overpowered, only more diverse. And the primary benefit the Grey Knights get from fixing these units is the variety of choices for list building, so an opponent doesn't know exactly what units the Grey Knights are fielding just by knowing the Codex.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Zimko wrote: For Strike Squads, how about giving a special rule to Grand Masters that gives Strike Squads in the army the 'Scout' special rule. Call it 'Grand Strategy' like in the old codex. This allows them to stay the same while giving them the usefulness of providing teleport homers up the field. It'll also encourage people to actually take a Grand Master instead of double Librarians.
My issue with Scout for Strike Squads is that it doesn't fill their fluff role, and doesn't really benefit the Terminators. They would still only reduce the scatter for Terminators arriving on the Grey Knight side of the middle line, and they need reduced scatter for the opponent's side of the board.
Perhaps the Strike Squads were as they are, but with Rites of Teleportation base instead of it being a Detachment benefit, and Terminators have a special rule that auto-reduces scatter wherever they land.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/13 20:06:56
AnomanderRake wrote: If you want to introduce variety back into the Codex back off on the all-GK-all-the-time setup the 5e book tried to push. Bring back Inquisitorial content, Stormtroopers, that sort of thing.
That wouldn't fix the poor balance for the units still in the Codex. I'm all for bringing back units that were stripped away, but the core, the Grey Knights proper, needs to be balanced.
Add an Attack to all GK profiles. Any GK unit that comes with Hammerhand can trade it for a Blessing that improves Storm Bolters somehow (+1S, Rending, force reroll of successful saves, there are many possibilities). Expand the ranged weapons list to include things that can threaten armour and things that have a range of beyond 24", let Purgators buy suspensor webs or some such for Relentless or limited Relentless. Stick servo-skulls for safe Deep Strike back in the core GK book. Give them a broader selection of armour.
Here's my current idea for improving internal balance. Remember that external balance would involve fixing the problems other Codexes have, not leaving holes in this one.
Note: The Aegis, Preferred Enemy (Daemons), and 1 Mastery Level of Psyker are essentially the Grey Knights' Chapter Tactics, and the other Space Marine chapters don't have to pay for their Chapter Tactics.
Replace Banishment as the Grey Knights' Primaris Power with "Psybolt" as a Warp Charge 1 Blessing that targets the Psyker's unit and grants +1 Strength to shooting attacks.
Make Banishment a passive ability where Daemons within receive -1 to their Invulnerable Save for each unit with this special rule within 12" of the Daemon's unit, to a minimum of 6++.
Special Weapons (& Terminator Special Weapons)
Psilencer: Add Rending to the profile.
Psycannon: Change Salvo to always use the maximum range.
Dreadnought Weapons:
Exchange Twin-linked Autocannon for a Twin-linked Hydra Autocannon, (same cost)
*The other upgrades on pg59 are fine.
HQs 125pts- Brother-Captain: same options and costs
150pts- Brother-Captain Stern:
100pts- Brotherhood Champion:
125pts- Castellan Crowe:
90pts- Techmarine: Add option to exchange his Servo-harness for a Storm Shield
*The Librarian is perfect as he is.
Troops
90pts- Strike Squad: Exchange Deep Strike for Infiltrate. Make the Nemesis Force Sword an optional upgrade instead of coming standard with the model.
*Terminators are fine as they are.
Elite
125pts- Purifier Squad: Exchange Purifying Flame for Fiery Form
150pts- Paladin Squad: Additional Paladins cost 50pts, add optional Storm Shield for 10 pts each
100pts- Dreadnought: exchange Twin-linked Autocannon for a Twin-linked Hydra Autocannon (same cost),
Fast
55- Razorback: replace TL heavy flamer option for Heavy Incinerator and have it cost around 10pts
*Rhinos, Interceptors and Storm Ravens are fine.
Heavy
110- Purgation Squad: Lose Nem. Force Swords, Frag, Krak, & Psyk-out Grenades, Night Vision, and Hammerhand. Instead, give them Perfect Timing. Also give them the optional upgrade to take Missile Launchers with Flak Missiles.
130- Nemesis Dreadknight: Add a Storm Shield option to the second bullet point for 30pts
270- Land Raider Redeemer: Give Flamestorm Cannon Torrent.
LoW *Draigo is fine.
Rites of Teleportation: should include reduced Deep Strike scatter.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/17 04:34:03
Ultimately the Psilencer is only 6 shots at Strength 4 with no armor penetration. If you crunch the numbers it is objectively worse than the Psycannon (if you disregard the stupidity of Salvo). Force on a shooting weapon looks nice on paper, but in my experience it very rarely comes into play, especially since that S4 limits the maximum Toughness of enemies that can be hurt. Fore most multi-wound models you have a 2/3 chance to hit, with a low chance to wound, with an even lower chance of the save being failed. Statistically it should take two rounds of shooting from a Psilencer to get a successful wound on a daemon-prince or equivalent. I'd happily give up Force if they'd just give it Rending.
Alternatively, it could have a special rule that makes it always wound on a 4+ so it could actually be useful against those high toughness monstrous creatures, and that would make me happy without Rending.
Note: the Gatling Psilencer stacks pretty well considering it has fully twice as many shots as a Heavy Psycannon, a perk the standard Psilencer does not share with the standard Psycannon (again disregarding the stupidity of Salvo). However that Strength 4 is still an extremely limiting factor on the gun.
Quickjager wrote: A psilencer with rending? You have no idea how many people you're scaring with that concept, I felt an evil smile creep onto my face reading it.
Those rolls of 6 on a Rending Psilencer would be the only AP2 infantry shooting attacks in the entire Codex (aside from the Psycannon which was decimated by Salvo), while others have Lascannons Meltaguns, and all sorts of other AP2 (or even AP1) shooting weapons on their infantry.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Everything else is AP4, or AP5
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/22 13:42:04
I don't think psilencers should have rending a lot of armies lack ap 2 (orks,nids and even crons although crons one source of range ap2 did get more viable this edition). they do deserve a slight buff though. I liked the idea of a grey knight psyhic power that boosts the strength of both storm bolters and psilencer.
Bill1138 wrote: Here's my current idea for improving internal balance. Remember that external balance would involve fixing the problems other Codexes have, not leaving holes in this one.
An equally large part of external balance is also not making your own army grossly over-powered just because you think they should be... (unless your name is Mat Ward!)
Bill1138 wrote: Replace Banishment as the Grey Knights' Primaris Power with "Psybolt" as a Warp Charge 1 Blessing that targets the Psyker's unit and grants +1 Strength to shooting attacks.
No.
+1S for 'mind bullets' was idiotic in the last codex and made absolutely no sense whatsoever. If Psybolts make a comeback, then it should be either as a set to-wound roll vs. Daemons & Psykers, or else a rule such as say Shred or re-roll failed 1's to-wound vs. Daemons & Psykers.
Bill1138 wrote: Make Banishment a passive ability where Daemons within receive -1 to their Invulnerable Save for each unit with this special rule within 12" of the Daemon's unit, to a minimum of 6++.
No way in hell.
How would you like it if suddenly Daemon players suggest that it's fair for us to gain say, "Grey Knights suffer -1 to their armour saves for each daemonic unit within 12", because... Reasons!?"
You want to nuke a Daemon's invuln save, (which keep in mind, is pretty much the only save Daemons ever get outside for rare few cases of 3+ or FnP), then you can cast Banishment properly.
I mean seriously, you're freaking Grey Knights! It's not like Warp Charges are all that hard to come by in a GK army!
Bill1138 wrote: Special Weapons (& Terminator Special Weapons)
Psilencer: Add Rending to the profile.
Psycannon: Change Salvo to always use the maximum range.
Absolutely NO! The Psilencer is already good and deadly to the things it's meant to really smite, which are the vast majority of T4 multi-wound units. It does not need an additional buff just because you want your Codex: Easy Mode back.
The Psycannon's so-called 'problems' only need to be addressed by a fix to Salvo weapons in general.
Bill1138 wrote: Dreadnought Weapons:
Exchange Twin-linked Autocannon for a Twin-linked Hydra Autocannon, (same cost)
Or rather, just make the ability to gain Skyfire as an upgrade to the basic twin-linked Autocannon.
Bill1138 wrote: HQs 125pts- Brother-Captain: same options and costs
150pts- Brother-Captain Stern:
100pts- Brotherhood Champion:
125pts- Castellan Crowe:
90pts- Techmarine: Add option to exchange his Servo-harness for a Storm Shield
*The Librarian is perfect as he is.
The Bro-Captain could probably do with dropping to 140pts. That's essentially having him pay only 20pts for his Mastery lv1, instead of the full 25pts one normally pays for Psyker levels. 125 is too cheap though - that's only 5pts above a basic Codex Termie Captain in which you're gaining Lv1 + Force Sword + grenades. That's definitely worth at least 15-20pts premium!
Stern should still be a bit more than 150pts. He is a Lv2 afterall, and turns Banishment into an area-effect power with a solid 12" radius.
Again, Crowe is too cheap. He's still a Lv2, and to boot, he comes with Cleansing Flame which is a heinously effective power. He's also a solid Challenge beatstick. At the very least, he'd definitely be solid buy for 150pts.
Honestly, I think the lack of Storm Shields is a great way to help diversify GK's from regular Marines, plus it gives regular Marines a bonus over the Knights.
Librarian could easily do with being 10pts more honestly, as right now he's a complete no-brainer.
Bill1138 wrote: Troops
90pts- Strike Squad: Exchange Deep Strike for Infiltrate. Make the Nemesis Force Sword an optional upgrade instead of coming standard with the model.
*Terminators are fine as they are.
Keep Deep Strike, add Scout.
Infiltrate is simply too much of a God-mode for GK's... using the special Strike Force detachment rules, you could very easily be landing the game's outright best alpha strike for absolutely 0 risk beyond "don't go last."
Scout keeps the ability good, but not stupidly broken.
Bill1138 wrote: Elite
125pts- Purifier Squad: Exchange Purifying Flame for Fiery Form
150pts- Paladin Squad: Additional Paladins cost 50pts, add optional Storm Shield for 10 pts each
100pts- Dreadnought: exchange Twin-linked Autocannon for a Twin-linked Hydra Autocannon (same cost)
Uh, sure? Not really sure why you'd want to dump the game's best Nova power, and the one that basically defined this nonsensical "purer than pure" unit...
No gakking way should Pallies be cheaper AND be able to instantly gain a 2++ save for next to no effort!! And considering the IoM bro-fisting BFF club, it's not like it'd be hard to add in an IG Priest to make that 2++ re-rollable in combat either... If a re-rollable 2++ is beyond broken & stupid for Xenos, why is it suddenly okay for Imperials to pull that BS?!
Or rather, just give the Autocannon itself the ability to gain a Skyfire mode for an additional cost...
Bill1138 wrote: Fast
55- Razorback: replace TL heavy flamer option for Heavy Incinerator and have it cost around 10pts
Just make it a regular Incinerator.
Bill1138 wrote: Heavy
110- Purgation Squad: Lose Nem. Force Swords, Frag, Krak, & Psyk-out Grenades, Night Vision, and Hammerhand. Instead, give them Perfect Timing. Also give them the optional upgrade to take Missile Launchers with Flak Missiles.
130- Nemesis Dreadknight: Add a Storm Shield option to the second bullet point for 30pts
270- Land Raider Redeemer: Give Flamestorm Cannon Torrent.
No, no, and NO!
First, Grey Knights are defined by their iconic wargear. No giving that up, just as basic Marines cannot give up Bolters. There's really nothing wrong with Purgations, other than the fact that Dreadknights are again, too amazing of an auto-include.
Deploy these guys properly with good LoS and a decent field of fire, and they can cover a pretty area with their firepower. Besides, GK's shouldn't ever be a static gunline force.
No. If you want Storm Shields, go play a regular Marine Chapter. You still get instant access to a 4++ thanks to Sanctuary. If you honestly think it's be perfectly balanced to start with a 3++ which is then easily boosted to a 2++, have fun trying find people willing to play against you...
Land Raiders are already viewed as universally over-costed. And again, remember all the whining Marines players did, (and still do!), over Helldrakes? This would be equally as bad.
Bill1138 wrote: Rites of Teleportation: should include reduced Deep Strike scatter.
No. Buy Teleport Homers if you want risk-free DS'ing.
Overall your "fixes" read more like, "I want my Codex: Godmode-hammer back, because... 'Grey Knights!'"
Bill1138 wrote: Special Weapons (& Terminator Special Weapons)
Psilencer: Add Rending to the profile.
Psycannon: Change Salvo to always use the maximum range.
Absolutely NO! The Psilencer is already good and deadly to the things it's meant to really smite, which are the vast majority of T4 multi-wound units. It does not need an additional buff just because you want your Codex: Easy Mode back.
The Psycannon's so-called 'problems' only need to be addressed by a fix to Salvo weapons in general.
I'd like to point out that Psilencers are actually fairly gakky at present, and something does need to be done about them. IMO, changing them to 30" range and Salvo 4/6 (or preferably 36" range) would actually be a good direction- there's a good parallel in the DE Splinter Cannon, which should be considered the benchmark of a "good" Salvo weapon, in that it has sufficiently long range and high RoF to provide substantial benefit to the squad, no matter if they move or not.
But I would agree that Rending is not the direction to go for Psilencers.
EDIT: I'd also like to mention that Psilencers should perhaps be S5 as well; while S5 isn't particularly impressive on its own, S5, plus a range buff and Salvo 4/6 would make them passably good midrange anti-horde, and also a credible threat to not only multi-wound T4/5 models, but also solo T6 MCs; I mean, you're probably not scaring a Riptide off on account of its 2+ armor- same really applies to the Dreadknight as well, though DKs at least have the decency to want to punch things like a proper MC- but the things that GKs are, fluff-wise, fighting all the time would have to carefully weigh out whether or not getting into view of a Psilencer would be a good idea.
It would also help make Psilencers a good choice in comparison to the Incinerator and Psycannon; both of the latter offer higher Strength and better AP; Incinerators are also Ignores Cover/Templates, while Psycannons snag Rending (for whatever reason...), but Psilencers would provide weight of fire and Force.
Also, I rather like that Psilencers are Force weapons; it contributes to the flavor, IMO, of the GK army that they- at least for now- have the only Force weapon that's a gun in the entire game.
Bill1138 wrote: Dreadnought Weapons:
Exchange Twin-linked Autocannon for a Twin-linked Hydra Autocannon, (same cost)
Or rather, just make the ability to gain Skyfire as an upgrade to the basic twin-linked Autocannon.
Even easier: make Stormravens better AA for Grey Knights (maybe diversify GK Stormraven missile options), and give some kind of option for 'ground-based' Skyfire. Pretty much every army in the game has a ground-based AA unit as well as a superiority "fighter" of some kind. Not only that, but this helps diversify options for GKs a little bit more.
Bill1138 wrote: Fast
55- Razorback: replace TL heavy flamer option for Heavy Incinerator and have it cost around 10pts
Just make it a regular Incinerator.
It's worth noting that said Incinerator should be twin-linked; but it's also worth noting that the Heavy Incinerator at 10 points would be waaaay undercosted- vanilla Marines are paying 20 points for a twin-linked Heavy Flamer, so that's a good point to start at for pricing a twin-linked Incinerator on the GK Razorback.
Of course, it'd be really chill if GK vehicles could swap HB/AC mounts for Psycannons, at an appropriate cost, naturally.
Bill1138 wrote: 270- Land Raider Redeemer: Give Flamestorm Cannon Torrent.
No, no, and NO!
First, Grey Knights are defined by their iconic wargear. No giving that up, just as basic Marines cannot give up Bolters. There's really nothing wrong with Purgations, other than the fact that Dreadknights are again, too amazing of an auto-include.
Deploy these guys properly with good LoS and a decent field of fire, and they can cover a pretty area with their firepower. Besides, GK's shouldn't ever be a static gunline force.
Land Raiders are already viewed as universally over-costed. And again, remember all the whining Marines players did, (and still do!), over Helldrakes? This would be equally as bad.
A 'Deemer with Torrent Flamestorms, costed at 270 points, would IMO be fairly reasonable.
It's also worth noting that the Baal Predator thread discussed changing the Flamestorm Cannon to a Torrent weapon; the general consensus was that Heldrakes were so bad because they were Flyers with a 360 degree "turret", and so it didn't much matter where you put your mans or how you might try and "bubblewrap" important stuff, a Heldrake could just zip over whatever was 'in the way', set fire to all the things, and moonwalk about the board unopposed.
Even account for PotMS, you can still really only move 6", as you'll likely want to fire both Flamestorms. It's also worth noting that Land Raiders in general want to be close to the enemy- Torrent Flamestorms on a Redeemer won't change that; the tank is still likely- if not guaranteed- to end up in melta range.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/23 00:52:45
Bill1138 wrote: Special Weapons (& Terminator Special Weapons)
Psilencer: Add Rending to the profile.
Psycannon: Change Salvo to always use the maximum range.
Absolutely NO! The Psilencer is already good and deadly to the things it's meant to really smite, which are the vast majority of T4 multi-wound units. It does not need an additional buff just because you want your Codex: Easy Mode back.
The Psycannon's so-called 'problems' only need to be addressed by a fix to Salvo weapons in general.
I'd like to point out that Psilencers are actually fairly gakky at present, and something does need to be done about them. IMO, changing them to 30" range and Salvo 4/6 (or preferably 36" range) would actually be a good direction- there's a good parallel in the DE Splinter Cannon, which should be considered the benchmark of a "good" Salvo weapon, in that it has sufficiently long range and high RoF to provide substantial benefit to the squad, no matter if they move or not.
But I would agree that Rending is not the direction to go for Psilencers.
EDIT: I'd also like to mention that Psilencers should perhaps be S5 as well; while S5 isn't particularly impressive on its own, S5, plus a range buff and Salvo 4/6 would make them passably good midrange anti-horde, and also a credible threat to not only multi-wound T4/5 models, but also solo T6 MCs; I mean, you're probably not scaring a Riptide off on account of its 2+ armor- same really applies to the Dreadknight as well, though DKs at least have the decency to want to punch things like a proper MC- but the things that GKs are, fluff-wise, fighting all the time would have to carefully weigh out whether or not getting into view of a Psilencer would be a good idea.
It would also help make Psilencers a good choice in comparison to the Incinerator and Psycannon; both of the latter offer higher Strength and better AP; Incinerators are also Ignores Cover/Templates, while Psycannons snag Rending (for whatever reason...), but Psilencers would provide weight of fire and Force.
Also, I rather like that Psilencers are Force weapons; it contributes to the flavor, IMO, of the GK army that they- at least for now- have the only Force weapon that's a gun in the entire game.
Bill1138 wrote: Dreadnought Weapons:
Exchange Twin-linked Autocannon for a Twin-linked Hydra Autocannon, (same cost)
Or rather, just make the ability to gain Skyfire as an upgrade to the basic twin-linked Autocannon.
Even easier: make Stormravens better AA for Grey Knights (maybe diversify GK Stormraven missile options), and give some kind of option for 'ground-based' Skyfire. Pretty much every army in the game has a ground-based AA unit as well as a superiority "fighter" of some kind. Not only that, but this helps diversify options for GKs a little bit more.
Bill1138 wrote: Fast
55- Razorback: replace TL heavy flamer option for Heavy Incinerator and have it cost around 10pts
Just make it a regular Incinerator.
It's worth noting that said Incinerator should be twin-linked; but it's also worth noting that the Heavy Incinerator at 10 points would be waaaay undercosted- vanilla Marines are paying 20 points for a twin-linked Heavy Flamer, so that's a good point to start at for pricing a twin-linked Incinerator on the GK Razorback.
Of course, it'd be really chill if GK vehicles could swap HB/AC mounts for Psycannons, at an appropriate cost, naturally.
Bill1138 wrote: 270- Land Raider Redeemer: Give Flamestorm Cannon Torrent.
No, no, and NO!
First, Grey Knights are defined by their iconic wargear. No giving that up, just as basic Marines cannot give up Bolters. There's really nothing wrong with Purgations, other than the fact that Dreadknights are again, too amazing of an auto-include.
Deploy these guys properly with good LoS and a decent field of fire, and they can cover a pretty area with their firepower. Besides, GK's shouldn't ever be a static gunline force.
Land Raiders are already viewed as universally over-costed. And again, remember all the whining Marines players did, (and still do!), over Helldrakes? This would be equally as bad.
A 'Deemer with Torrent Flamestorms, costed at 270 points, would IMO be fairly reasonable.
It's also worth noting that the Baal Predator thread discussed changing the Flamestorm Cannon to a Torrent weapon; the general consensus was that Heldrakes were so bad because they were Flyers with a 360 degree "turret", and so it didn't much matter where you put your mans or how you might try and "bubblewrap" important stuff, a Heldrake could just zip over whatever was 'in the way', set fire to all the things, and moonwalk about the board unopposed.
Even account for PotMS, you can still really only move 6", as you'll likely want to fire both Flamestorms. It's also worth noting that Land Raiders in general want to be close to the enemy- Torrent Flamestorms on a Redeemer won't change that; the tank is still likely- if not guaranteed- to end up in melta range.
Whiskey144,
I fully agree with your solution to the Psilencers (+1S, Salvo 4/6, 36" range) It gives them at least a chance to wound T8, and allows it to be used on the move without too much of a penalty. It is more elegant than me slapping Rending onto the profile.
You didn't touch on Salvo's effect on the Psycannon. I still think the Psycannon either needs Salvo to use its maximum range, or likewise have the Psycannon's maximum range increased to 36". If it's increased to 36", then when moving, the entire unit can fire at at least 18", and when they're stationary they can all fire at at least 24". 12" range on moving PAGK is no good when using it costs them their melee weapons and their ability to charge.
My main reason for making Dreadnoughts anti-air is that they struggle to find a role in the Elite Slot when Purifiers serve as anti-hoard as well as Warp Charge batteries.
I'll accept my suggested Razorback pricing to be off, but I do think it makes sense for vehicle mounted template weapons to have Torrent, and not just the Grey Knights. They carry more fuel, and can pressurize it more for greater range than a man-portable version, and it would help to clear an area for the unit inside to disembark. What pricing do you think would be fair for a Heavy Incinerator on a Razorback? 20pts like it is for the Dreadknight?
Bill1138 wrote: Whiskey144,
I fully agree with your solution to the Psilencers (+1S, Salvo 4/6, 36" range) It gives them at least a chance to wound T8, and allows it to be used on the move without too much of a penalty. It is more elegant than me slapping Rending onto the profile.
You didn't touch on Salvo's effect on the Psycannon. I still think the Psycannon either needs Salvo to use its maximum range, or likewise have the Psycannon's maximum range increased to 36". If it's increased to 36", then when moving, the entire unit can fire at at least 18", and when they're stationary they can all fire at at least 24". 12" range on moving PAGK is no good when using it costs them their melee weapons and their ability to charge.
Truthfully, I think Psycannons as a whole need to be completely reworked, and the whole "Psycannons are betterer Assault Cannons" thing should be dumped faster than a 10 pound turd. Of course, I also think that the old-school Daemonhunter style Psybolt ammo of "no invuln save allowed" was pretty boss, and would also put an end to the many things that like to screw around with re-rollable 2++ shenanigans.
In any case, if Salvo rules remain as-present, then yes, a range buff for Psilencers and Psycannons would, IMO, be in order. OTOH, if the mechanics of Salvo are changed, then a range buff may not be necessary. It's also worth noting that the old-school Psycannons used a "Suspensor Web" effect, in that you could use an Assault profile that cut range in half, or a Heavy profile that leveraged full range. Obviously the 5th Edition book changed it- and IMO for the worse really.
So to sum up, the only reason for the range buff is to compensate for Salvo rules; I mostly modeled the proposed changes for the Psilencer off of the Splinter Cannon, which remains the one well-designed Salvo weapon in the entire game; Scion HSVGs are a possibility (SM Grav only gets a pass for not being bad because it's the best counter to 2+ armor MCs) for a runner up, but have severe limitations, particularly for range- much like the Psycannon.
Bill1138 wrote: My main reason for making Dreadnoughts anti-air is that they struggle to find a role in the Elite Slot when Purifiers serve as anti-hoard as well as Warp Charge batteries.
I'm not disputing that GK Dreads getting an anti-aircraft role in the list is a bad idea- in fact, I quite like it. I just think that Stormravens as GKAA should also be improved as anti-air, so as to provide multiple options; most, if not all, armies have multiple solutions to things like horde infantry, elite infantry, heavy armor, aircraft, etc. GKs shouldn't be left in the cold on that front.
Bill1138 wrote: I'll accept my suggested Razorback pricing to be off, but I do think it makes sense for vehicle mounted template weapons to have Torrent, and not just the Grey Knights. They carry more fuel, and can pressurize it more for greater range than a man-portable version, and it would help to clear an area for the unit inside to disembark. What pricing do you think would be fair for a Heavy Incinerator on a Razorback? 20pts like it is for the Dreadknight?
I don't necessarily dispute that vehicle-mounted Templates should probably have Torrent due to the various advantages that a vehicle would have as a weapons platform. What I do dispute, is that it would be a necessarily good idea. It's actually the case that the only unit which could be considered a dedicated flame tank, that also carries infantry, is the Land Raider Redeemer. Razorbacks and Immolators can take twin-linked HFs, but they can't get the substantial power of, say, a Flamestorm (S6/AP3), or an Inferno Cannon (S6/AP4/Torrent), or the other high-end template weapons that are typically reserved for vehicles.
If you're dead set on Heavy Incinerator Razorbacks, then I'd probably have a gander at this thread about rebalancing Baal Predator tanks with Flamestorm Cannons, as the subject of changing said weapon to a Torrent flamer was brought up (and also objected to on the basis of "but Heldrakes!"). Also has some a pretty good explanation about why Heldrakes were considered so annoying and despised so vehemently.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/23 04:28:17
Psilencers: They'd be far too good at S5.
Remember what these are really aimed at nailing - namely all those multi-wound T4/5 models, of which Xenos armies especially can contain a fairly moderate to large number. Plus the fact that the majority of these multi-wound units either do not have 3+ or better saves, or else end up paying through the nose for those higher saves.
S4 is the only thing really keeping Psilencers decently balanced, as the Force buff has made these gun highly dangerous to those medium level units. (and Force is not that easy for most armies to dispel due to it being a Blessing)
They're actually a pretty solid upgrade for Terminators who're running Halberds. You get a weight of fire Force shooting attack, and can follow it up in combat with the ability to gain S7 Force attacks.
Sure T8 can't be shot down, but then, how much T8 is there outside of Wraithlords & Wraithknights?
or look at it this way;
12 S4/Force shots vs. 6 Bloodcrushers. (T4/W3/5++)
BS4 = 8 hits
S4 vs. T4 = 4 wounds
4 wounds vs. 5++ save = 1.32 saves
With Force active, that's on average a total of 6-9 wounds being taken out of that squad!
12 S5/Force shots vs. 6 Bloodcrushers.
BS4 = 8 hits
S5 vs. T4 = 5.28 wounds (we'll round down)
5 wounds vs. 5++ save = 1.65 saves.
With Force active, that same unit is now typically losing on average 9-12 wounds! Even on average rolls, that's half the unit evaporating on the spot.
And that's without taking into account that Grey Knights can gain easy access to additional shooting augments such as guaranteed Prescience, or the chance of rolling up the likes of Perfect Timing and/or Foreboding.
Psilencers are fine. If you make them more threatening to the likes of Wraith constructs and those high save units like Centurians/Pallies/Meganobs, then all you end up doing is making them utterly godly vs. the vast majority of non-T4/5 2+ save units.
Psycannons: If Rending stays, then range needs to stay short.
S7 Rending is simply too good on the whole. Hence why so many people hated them under the last codex where they were a rather obnoxious no-brainer choice, since they could take on absolutely everything under the sun.
If Rending goes, then sure, a 36" range is still pretty well balanced, as now the gun becomes a hybrid of a Heavy Bolter/Autocannon. High rate of fire S7 is still scary, and can still Hull Point light to medium vehicles to death quite readily.
Experiment 626 wrote: Psilencers: They'd be far too good at S5.
Remember what these are really aimed at nailing - namely all those multi-wound T4/5 models, of which Xenos armies especially can contain a fairly moderate to large number. Plus the fact that the majority of these multi-wound units either do not have 3+ or better saves, or else end up paying through the nose for those higher saves.
S4 is the only thing really keeping Psilencers decently balanced, as the Force buff has made these gun highly dangerous to those medium level units. (and Force is not that easy for most armies to dispel due to it being a Blessing)
They're actually a pretty solid upgrade for Terminators who're running Halberds. You get a weight of fire Force shooting attack, and can follow it up in combat with the ability to gain S7 Force attacks.
Sure T8 can't be shot down, but then, how much T8 is there outside of Wraithlords & Wraithknights?
or look at it this way;
12 S4/Force shots vs. 6 Bloodcrushers. (T4/W3/5++)
BS4 = 8 hits
S4 vs. T4 = 4 wounds
4 wounds vs. 5++ save = 1.32 saves
With Force active, that's on average a total of 6-9 wounds being taken out of that squad!
12 S5/Force shots vs. 6 Bloodcrushers.
BS4 = 8 hits
S5 vs. T4 = 5.28 wounds (we'll round down)
5 wounds vs. 5++ save = 1.65 saves.
With Force active, that same unit is now typically losing on average 9-12 wounds! Even on average rolls, that's half the unit evaporating on the spot.
And that's without taking into account that Grey Knights can gain easy access to additional shooting augments such as guaranteed Prescience, or the chance of rolling up the likes of Perfect Timing and/or Foreboding.
Psilencers are fine. If you make them more threatening to the likes of Wraith constructs and those high save units like Centurians/Pallies/Meganobs, then all you end up doing is making them utterly godly vs. the vast majority of non-T4/5 2+ save units.
You're throwing out these Divination powers as if they're unique to the Grey Knights. They are not. Other Codexes have much better shooting than the Grey Knights AND just as much access to Divination as the Grey Knights, which we can only get from Librarians and Brother Captains, and 130+pts for Divination on a unit is paying for whatever benefit is received, so it's not like the unit gets it for free or "easily" as you suggest.
Your numbers for the "Psilencer" actually used the Gatling Psilencer's 12 shots. Against anything with a decent save, the Gatling Psilencer is a bit underwhelming, but usable. It is the regular Psilencer that needs fixing.
Let's look at the weapons in relation to your T4 target unit.
Psilencer (mobile) (S4, Heavy 6)
So if the unit moves (since you previously argued that Grey Knights should never form static gun-lines) they are reduced to BS1. That means they'll statistically have 1 hit.
Rolling To-Wound reduces that to a 50% chance to cause 1 wound.
Your 5++ save reduces that by a third to a 33% chance to cause 1 unsaved wound. So if the Psilencer stays the same as you suggested, and the unit moves as you say it should, it will only statistically wound one model every three turns, which means only 1-2 casualties for the entire length of the game. And that's not taking into account having to get Force off. Which they have to pass their Psychic test, not killing the Psilencer in the process, and then not be denied.
If the Psilencer stays the same, and the Unit stays stationary, that increases their number of hits to 4, which becomes 2 wounds, and finally results in 1.33 unsaved wounds. That's 4 wounds every 3 turns.
Let's look at the Storm Bolter for comparison. (S4, Assault 2)
2 shots (mobile or stationary, doesn't matter) at BS4 will statistically result in 1.33 hits, which becomes 0.66 Wounds, which finally results in 0.44 unsaved wounds after your 5++. On the move (as you said the Grey Knights should always be) the standard Storm Bolter has a better chance to cause a wound than the Psilencer. And when you combine this with the fact that the Psilencer costs points, sacrifices the Nemesis Force Sword, and dis-allows the user from charging after its use, the weapon is really not good.
Let's check the numbers if the Psilencer were S5, Salvo 4/6, which you shot down as too over-powered.
Psilencer (mobile) 4 shots with a 2/3 chance to hit result in 2.66 hits, then a 2/3 chance to Wound results 1.77 Wounds, and finally a 2/3 chance to be unsaved results in 1.18 Unsaved Wounds. A marked improvement over the Storm Bolter's 0.44 Wounds. Yet this is appropriate for 10pts, a Nemesis Force Sword, Storm Bolter, and the ability to charge after its use. And it still requires a successful casting of Force for Instant Death.
Psilencer (stationary) 6 shots with a 2/3 chance to hit results in 4 hits, then a 2/3 chance to Wound results in 2.66 Wounds, and finally a 2/3 chance to be unsaved will result in 1.77 Unsaved Wounds.Yet this is still appropriate for 10pts, a Nemesis Force Sword, Storm Bolter, and the ability to charge after its use as well has sacrificing movement. And it still requires a successful casting of Force for Instant Death.
Now let's take a look at the Gatling Psilencers. (S4, Heavy 12)
12 shots at a 2/3 chance to hit is indeed 8 hits.
Those 8 hits have a 50% chance to wound a T4 model, reducing it to 4 Wounds
Those 4 wounds have a 2/3 chance to get past your 5++, resulting in 2.66 Wounds (statistically)
That is 3 Wounds. If Force fails to activate for any reason (and there are plenty), that is a potential one model killed. If Force is successfully activated, then it may kill 2-3 models. But you, knowing that your Bloodthirsters have three wounds, if you see a Gatling Psilencer coming in, you can use your Warp Charge dice to deny the Dreadknight Force, effectively castrating the Gatling Psilencer.
If we start listing every gun available to another faction that's better than the Psilencer, we'll never end. The Psilencer isn't being fielded in competative lists because it is objectively worse than most heavy weapons out there. It is actually one of the only instances when a Heavy Weapon would benefit from becoming Salvo.
Just for the record, Vanilla Marines pay nothing for swap the TLHB of a Razorback to a twin-linked heavy flamer. It's the three other options that cost 20 points each.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Just for the record, Vanilla Marines pay nothing for swap the TLHB of a Razorback to a twin-linked heavy flamer. It's the three other options that cost 20 points each.
That was my train of thought. I figured I'd split the difference between Free and the Dreadknight's 20pts, being as the Heavy Incinerator is better than the Twin-linked Heavy Flamer, yet isn't benefiting from the Dreadknight's mobility.
I'm not particularly attached to the point values, I'd just like to see the Grey Knights get some more Torrent if they aren't going to be given any decent long range shooting.
I'd further argue that 125 points is just fine for a Brother-Captain. Yes, it's only 5 points more than a Terminator Captain in C:SM, but no one takes the Terminator Captain because he's too expensive for what you get in the first place, and because it's a melee-centric character that's forced to either use a 200+ point transport, Deep Strike, or hoof it.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Experiment 626 wrote: Psilencers: They'd be far too good at S5.
Remember what these are really aimed at nailing - namely all those multi-wound T4/5 models, of which Xenos armies especially can contain a fairly moderate to large number. Plus the fact that the majority of these multi-wound units either do not have 3+ or better saves, or else end up paying through the nose for those higher saves.
S4 is the only thing really keeping Psilencers decently balanced, as the Force buff has made these gun highly dangerous to those medium level units. (and Force is not that easy for most armies to dispel due to it being a Blessing)
They're actually a pretty solid upgrade for Terminators who're running Halberds. You get a weight of fire Force shooting attack, and can follow it up in combat with the ability to gain S7 Force attacks.
Sure T8 can't be shot down, but then, how much T8 is there outside of Wraithlords & Wraithknights?
or look at it this way;
12 S4/Force shots vs. 6 Bloodcrushers. (T4/W3/5++)
BS4 = 8 hits
S4 vs. T4 = 4 wounds
4 wounds vs. 5++ save = 1.32 saves
With Force active, that's on average a total of 6-9 wounds being taken out of that squad!
12 S5/Force shots vs. 6 Bloodcrushers.
BS4 = 8 hits
S5 vs. T4 = 5.28 wounds (we'll round down)
5 wounds vs. 5++ save = 1.65 saves.
With Force active, that same unit is now typically losing on average 9-12 wounds! Even on average rolls, that's half the unit evaporating on the spot.
And that's without taking into account that Grey Knights can gain easy access to additional shooting augments such as guaranteed Prescience, or the chance of rolling up the likes of Perfect Timing and/or Foreboding.
Psilencers are fine. If you make them more threatening to the likes of Wraith constructs and those high save units like Centurians/Pallies/Meganobs, then all you end up doing is making them utterly godly vs. the vast majority of non-T4/5 2+ save units.
Psycannons: If Rending stays, then range needs to stay short.
S7 Rending is simply too good on the whole. Hence why so many people hated them under the last codex where they were a rather obnoxious no-brainer choice, since they could take on absolutely everything under the sun.
If Rending goes, then sure, a 36" range is still pretty well balanced, as now the gun becomes a hybrid of a Heavy Bolter/Autocannon. High rate of fire S7 is still scary, and can still Hull Point light to medium vehicles to death quite readily.
As it stands though, the opportunity cost of taking a Psilencer is simply too high; an Incinerator actually works with mobile PAGKs, and Psycannons, as you said, are still very good on anything else. I do think that your comparison is... interesting. I don't disagree with the results, but there is the fact that the Gatling Psilencer (IE, the 12-shot version) is only deployable via a Dreadknight, which has arguably better weapons to carry- like one of the very small number of 5" Blasts in the GK book, or the Inferno Cannon-in-disguise Heavy Incinerator.
Also, because I've not actually looked around for it, could you help me put together a list of multi-wound T4/5 models with "low" saves of 4+/4++ or less? There's the mentioned Bloodcrushers, as well as, off the top of my head, regular Nobs, Tyranid Warriors... and that's all I can think of. I could- and in fact probably am- missing quite a few, but I can't for the life of me think of them.
In any case, the S5 Psilencer was aimed more at helping kill T6/3+ "solo" units, like Daemon Princes or even Greater Daemons. I rather doubt that S5 would actually help that much against T4/2+ or T5/2+ multi-wound, and in truth I hadn't actually considered said 2+ armor multi-wound models to be a potential "good" target for an S5 Psilencer.
Also, I personally would love to see Psycannons return to being S6, 3 shots, and ignore invulnerable saves, rather than the S7/Rending ridiculousness we currently have. I'd also like to point out that I explicitly mentioned a strong dislike for the current Psycannon rules, and my comments regarding Psycannon range/Salvo mechanics was aimed more at fixing Psycannons to be more distinctive than the current "betterer Assault Cannon" thing they've got going, and then if they remained Salvo a range buff would be appropriate. Again, to be clear, I quite despise the current S7/Rending Psycannons, because they feel like a dressed up Assault Cannon that gets to be "more better" because reasons.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Just for the record, Vanilla Marines pay nothing for swap the TLHB of a Razorback to a twin-linked heavy flamer. It's the three other options that cost 20 points each.
I now realize that I temporarily had the dumbs, because I'd forgotten that detail. Since literally ever other gun option on the Razorback (TLLC, TLAC, Las/Plas) is a 20 point cost, it must have somehow stuck that so too were twin-linked HFs.
Apologies, I was assuming paired Psilencers - either through the likes of Purifyers/Purgators/Pallies who can run 2+ at only 5 men, or else taking a full 10 man Strike or Termie squad and making use of Combat Squads.
The thing with them is, one on it's own is definitely 'meh'. Paired or even taking the full 4 on the likes of Purgators is nasty though... hence why S5 would be too much IMHO. (guaranteed if they were to become S5 + Force, we'd see them everywhere!)
Keep in mind that the vulnerable units to these things include the likes of;
- Nobz & Flash Gits, and to a lesser extent Biker Nobs due to their max save of only 4+
- Tyranid Warriors, Shrikes & Raveners, plus to a lesser degree Hive Guard & Tyrant Guard
- Necron Wraiths. (*let's face it - S4/5 weight of fire is exactly how you actively deal with these guys!)
- Ogryns & Bullgryns
- non-MoN Chaos Spawn
- Bloodcrushers, Flesh Hounds, Fiends, Flamers & Screamers. Beasts of Nurgle & Plague Drones to a slightly lesser degree due to T5.
- Swarms of all varieties.
I'm sure I'm still missing a few units as well - Grotestques IIRC are T5 without a save? Also the likes of the Clawed Fiend from Beast Packs? So really it's only other Loyalist Marines and Eldar who pretty much laugh at Psilencers, along with Tau to a degree due to their Crisis Suits sporting 3+ saves.
As a Tzeentch Daemon player, I can tell you that weight of fire S5+ is heinously deadly. Even with only 14-16 or so shots coming from a single casting of Flickering Fire, being able to cause wounds on predominately 3+ really adds up. Typically it's enough to kill off at least 3-4 MEQ's in a single volley. Vs. non-3+ saves though, it's just gross as opponents start losing typically 6-7+ wounds from the target squad in one go.
If Psilencers were suddenly able to become so efficient, you'd pretty much end up removing the above units from the game.
As for dealing with those T5/6+ 'solo' MC's and the like... You have Force Halberds, Daemonhammers and Hammerhand to effectively combat them. Plus those heavier Psycannons, and Dreads who can act as gun emplacements, plus Stormravens & Land Raiders... oh, and freaking Dreadknights!
So maybe Wraithknights and the Lord of Change w/Boomstick + 2x Greater Rewards + Lv3 Divination are still hugely murderous... (and likely the new Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster, but then he's likely running the Chaos player 340+pts anyways, so for that cost, he should be a freaking b********!)
Regarding Psycannons and the idea of removing invuln saves again... please no. That 5++ is pretty much the only save outside of cover that Daemons get on the whole. Only Princes, 'Thirsters and a 16% chance on the Greater Rewards can get us a 3+ save. (and we have no 2+ armour saves)
Plus, when Psycannons had that ability, Daemons were still just a tag-along within the CSM codex itself, instead of their own stand alone army, AND, the Imperial player either had limited numbers of them, (because the Grey Knights were allied to an IG/Marine/Witch Hunters army), or else the Daemons got significant bonuses to make-up for the fact that Daemonhunters owned them pretty hard.
I'd rather see them remain S7, but gain something like say Shred or re-roll 1's to-wound vs. Daemons & Psykers. Still more effective vs. their iconic targets, but not an outright 'delete whatever' button that the old ignores invulns were back in the day...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/23 21:52:11
Slayer222 wrote: If the Knight was nerfed I would rather take that over costed landraider than use a purgation squad.
I think the main issues with Purgations actually stem from;
a) The Dreadknight is frankly too good to be true in terms of it's cost for what it routinely does in-game.
b) Purifyers bring the same number of special weapons, AND, get more attacks, AND get both Cleansing Flame + Mastery Lv2 for barely a handful of pts more.
Do the following things:
a) Slightly increase the base cost of the Dreadknight, because he frankly is that good.
b) Reduce Purifyers to only 2 special weapons like most other squads.
c) Swap out Night Vision & Banishment for perhaps Monster Hunter and Prescience. (now how awesome are S4 Psilencers?!)
Prescience might actually be a bit much combo'd alongside Monster Hunter when taking Psilencers though... Would definitely need some testing!