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Experiment 626 wrote: Apologies, I was assuming paired Psilencers - either through the likes of Purifyers/Purgators/Pallies who can run 2+ at only 5 men, or else taking a full 10 man Strike or Termie squad and making use of Combat Squads.
The thing with them is, one on it's own is definitely 'meh'. Paired or even taking the full 4 on the likes of Purgators is nasty though... hence why S5 would be too much IMHO. (guaranteed if they were to become S5 + Force, we'd see them everywhere!)
The thing is that even considering that, the current incarnation of the Psycannon, and the lack of weapon variety that the Grey Knights, quite frankly languish under, means that Psycannons would very likely still be preferred- S7/Rending means that they can, potentially, crack open almost anything in the game. There's simply very few guns that the GKs have in general, and of them the best "TAC" option ends up being the Psycannon.
It comes back to opportunity cost- do you take the Psilencer that can cripple multi-wound T4/5 units, or do you take a Psycannon that can potentially crack open a Land Raider or Monolith. Not only that, but 7th has heavily emphasized the "Spam S6/7, Win" meta that started off with some of the 6th edition armies- Psilencers, being S4/AP-, simply cannot hurt certain things- or else the probability of a Psilencer hurting something is simply so low as to be a non-issue. For example, Riptides are functionally immune to Psilencers, but- at least in theory- are most definitely not immune to Psycannons.
Experiment 626 wrote: Keep in mind that the vulnerable units to these things include the likes of;
- Nobz & Flash Gits, and to a lesser extent Biker Nobs due to their max save of only 4+
- Tyranid Warriors, Shrikes & Raveners, plus to a lesser degree Hive Guard & Tyrant Guard
- Necron Wraiths. (*let's face it - S4/5 weight of fire is exactly how you actively deal with these guys!)
- Ogryns & Bullgryns
- non-MoN Chaos Spawn
- Bloodcrushers, Flesh Hounds, Fiends, Flamers & Screamers. Beasts of Nurgle & Plague Drones to a slightly lesser degree due to T5.
- Swarms of all varieties.
I'm sure I'm still missing a few units as well - Grotestques IIRC are T5 without a save? Also the likes of the Clawed Fiend from Beast Packs? So really it's only other Loyalist Marines and Eldar who pretty much laugh at Psilencers, along with Tau to a degree due to their Crisis Suits sporting 3+ saves.
Swarms aren't, IMO, a big issue- most (if not all) of them are, AFAIK, T3, and most armies are throwing around enough S6+ to make Swarms pretty much GEQ anyways- not to mention the fact that Blast/Template weapons make Swarms cry even harder. As far as all the others, I hadn't actually considered all of them- I'd rather forgotten about the existence of Ogryn/Bullgryn (mostly because the models are still ugly as piss), and certainly there is a wider variety than I had initially considered. So, yes, you may have a point that Psilencers with S5+Force would be functioning as a hard-counter to most/all of these units... though I'd argue that Wraiths don't much care on account of having enough mobility to easily get into combat and then mulch anybody toting a Psilencer.
Experiment 626 wrote: As a Tzeentch Daemon player, I can tell you that weight of fire S5+ is heinously deadly. Even with only 14-16 or so shots coming from a single casting of Flickering Fire, being able to cause wounds on predominately 3+ really adds up. Typically it's enough to kill off at least 3-4 MEQ's in a single volley. Vs. non-3+ saves though, it's just gross as opponents start losing typically 6-7+ wounds from the target squad in one go.
If Psilencers were suddenly able to become so efficient, you'd pretty much end up removing the above units from the game.
I think something to consider though, is that Psilencers are still AP-; they might cut through multi-wound models if you can pop Force, but you're still having to breach saves of all kinds- cover, armor, invuln. Most of those units do tend to have relatively poor saves, yes- but they still get those saves.
In any case, in order to load up on Psilencers, you'd have to either field Dreadknights with Gatling Psilencers (expensive, and competing with Heavy Incinerators/Heavy Psycannons), or go with other infantry squads armed with regular Psilencers... which are currently 24" Heavy 6, so have to sit still to fire at anything resembling useful effect, and have a short range which simultaneously requires moving around.... it's not even a Catch 22, it's just a gakky deal. To get around 14-16 shots, to compare to Flickering Fire, you'd need a minimum of two Psilencers, or a Gatling Psilencer. As mentioned, this is currently a poor trade- Psycannons are pretty much the only good heavy weapon the GKs have for TAC purposes, and even then they only really work on GKTs. Not only that, but these are actual guns, not psychic powers- I'm not sure that the equivalence holds up.
It's also worth noting that killing 3-4 MEQ isn't super impressive these days- at one time, I'm sure it was, but with S6/7 wound spam running around and the amount of Ignores Cover/AP3 or better weapons that can get thrown around, 3-4 MEQ is small potatoes.
Experiment 626 wrote: As for dealing with those T5/6+ 'solo' MC's and the like... You have Force Halberds, Daemonhammers and Hammerhand to effectively combat them. Plus those heavier Psycannons, and Dreads who can act as gun emplacements, plus Stormravens & Land Raiders... oh, and freaking Dreadknights!
Dreads are lacking at present, while Halberds/Daemonhammers/Hammerhand requires you to get into combat. The particular MCs I'm thinking of off-hand tend to be things that want to shoot a lot, and also themselves tend to be either Jump/Jet or FMC. Admittedly, Psycannons-as-present are a good solution. Stormravens realistically have more important things to kill (excepting the case of an FMC, which is a good thing for a Stormraven to try and kill), and Land Raiders are currently a good 20+ points too expensive. Dreadknights are an option... but I'm not sure how well it holds up to, say, a 2++ re-rollable (since 2++ re-rollable is bs no matter what it comes on).
Experiment 626 wrote: So maybe Wraithknights and the Lord of Change w/Boomstick + 2x Greater Rewards + Lv3 Divination are still hugely murderous... (and likely the new Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster, but then he's likely running the Chaos player 340+pts anyways, so for that cost, he should be a freaking b********!)
Again, I was more thinking of T5/6 multi-wound with around 3+ armor; even with S5 the likelihood of gibbing a Wraithknight/Wraithlord is pretty nearly non-existent. The other issue I see is that Psilencers with S4 rely on Force to actually function "properly". Psilencers with S5 would benefit greatly from Force, but it wouldn't be necessary for it to be cast in order for Psilencers to function.
That's part of the reason I think Psilencers being S5 would be a great buff- they'd no longer require Force to be useful.
Experiment 626 wrote: Regarding Psycannons and the idea of removing invuln saves again... please no. That 5++ is pretty much the only save outside of cover that Daemons get on the whole. Only Princes, 'Thirsters and a 16% chance on the Greater Rewards can get us a 3+ save. (and we have no 2+ armour saves)
Plus, when Psycannons had that ability, Daemons were still just a tag-along within the CSM codex itself, instead of their own stand alone army, AND, the Imperial player either had limited numbers of them, (because the Grey Knights were allied to an IG/Marine/Witch Hunters army), or else the Daemons got significant bonuses to make-up for the fact that Daemonhunters owned them pretty hard.
I'd rather see them remain S7, but gain something like say Shred or re-roll 1's to-wound vs. Daemons & Psykers. Still more effective vs. their iconic targets, but not an outright 'delete whatever' button that the old ignores invulns were back in the day...
Psycannons, IMO, should have actually been left alone from what they were in the old Daemonhunter book. S6/AP4, and either Assault 3 or Heavy 3 (depending on whether you wanted to fire on the move or not, really), with the former being 18" and the latter 36" (IIRC). Insofar as Daemons lacking armor saves- I guess make a thread about Daemons being able to get armor?
One of the things is, Psilencers are supposedly the best gun to kill multi-wound T4 (and some T5) models with average-to-poor saves. So why not make Psycannons the counter to units with amazing invulnerable saves? I mean, the other option is to remove the mechanics that allow for re-rollable 2++ saves, since that's one of the most broken bs things in the game (IMO, at least). Being able to re-roll 2+ cover saves can be countered with Ignores Cover- most of the time units that pull that flavor of bs tend to be T3/4 infantry of some kind (Jetseers, IIRC), and you can just set that gak on fire with some kind of flamer template.
A re-rollable 2+ invulnerable save cannot be countered in such a manner- I mean sure, with GKs you can try Banishment, but then you're still dealing with a re-rollable 3+ invuln, which is still better than a straight 2+ invuln. If Psilencers should stay S4, then why not drop Psycannons to S6/3 shots and make them ignore invulnerable saves? That gives the gun a unique role, doesn't it?
Slayer222 wrote: If the Knight was nerfed I would rather take that over costed landraider than use a purgation squad.
I think the main issues with Purgations actually stem from;
a) The Dreadknight is frankly too good to be true in terms of it's cost for what it routinely does in-game.
b) Purifyers bring the same number of special weapons, AND, get more attacks, AND get both Cleansing Flame + Mastery Lv2 for barely a handful of pts more.
Do the following things:
a) Slightly increase the base cost of the Dreadknight, because he frankly is that good.
b) Reduce Purifyers to only 2 special weapons like most other squads.
c) Swap out Night Vision & Banishment for perhaps Monster Hunter and Prescience. (now how awesome are S4 Psilencers?!)
Prescience might actually be a bit much combo'd alongside Monster Hunter when taking Psilencers though... Would definitely need some testing!
Truthfully, Night Vision is fine- Nightfighting just needs to be reworked to actually have a bigger effect on the game. I'd also argue that Purifiers should only get 2x special- so I agree with you there, though I would also say that Purifiers should be able to do double special at 5 men, to help provide some extra differentiation between Purifiers and Strikes.
I'd also take Purifiers down to Mastery Lv1, as Grey Knights don't seem to have issues generating Warp Charge. Back in 6th Purifiers being Mastery Lv2 would have been important, as that's the only way that they'd have been able to cast the current incarnation of Cleansing Flame as a WC2 power, but given how Warp Charge is now merged into an army-wide pool, Purifiers being Mastery Lv1 isn't a big deal- they don't need Lv2 to be able to cast WC2 powers anymore.
I'd also say that I'd drop Banishment from Purgation squads, and instead allow them to get Vortex of Doom, or perhaps change the Daemonology disciplines (Sanctic/Malefic) to be "double-Primaris", where there's two Primaris options and you can pick which one you want (so you can't get both, but you can change which Primaris you take), and make a new witchfire power that's geared for Purgation squads, that they would know by default similar to how Purifiers get Cleansing Flame and pretty much everybody else has Banishment and Hammerhand.
The other option is that Purgation squads could get much cheaper heavies, or perhaps even get a few GK-variations of the existing Marine heavies- like some kind of blessed multi-melta or something?
Here's my version 3.0 idea for improving internal balance. Remember that external balance would involve fixing the problems other Codexes have, not leaving holes in this one.
Note: The Aegis, Preferred Enemy (Daemons), and 1 Mastery Level of Psyker are essentially the Grey Knights' Chapter Tactics, and the other Space Marine chapters don't have to pay for their Chapter Tactics.
Change the Primaris Power for Sanctic to a Warp Charge 1 Blessing that targets the Psyker’s unit and grants +1 Strength to shooting attacks.
Instead of Codex-wide Banishment, give Stern's Zone of Banishment to the HQs Purifiers, and Paladins.
Special Weapons (& Terminator Special Weapons)
Psilencer: S5, Salvo 4/6, Range 36”, (still Force)
Psycannon: Range 36”
Dreadnought Weapons:
TL Autocannon option: Make it a Hydra Autocannon, or add a Skyfire Upgrade to the existing Autocannon.
HQs 125pts- Brother-Captain: same options and costs
150pts- Brother-Captain Stern:
100pts- Brotherhood Champion:
125pts- Castellan Crowe:
Troops
Strike Squads: Forget what they currently are. Make them for the Grey Knights what Scouts are for the Space Marines, (relatively) cheap shooty units with Infiltrate, and the ability to take Homers. Change their gear and other special rules appropriately.
Elite
150pts- Paladin Squad of 3, with additional Paladins costing 50pts each, and add optional Storm Shields for 10pts each.
100pts Dreadnought: TL Autocannon option: Make it a Hydra Autocannon, or add a Skyfire Upgrade to the existing Autocannon.
Fast
Razorback, exchange the TL Heavy Flamer option for a TL Incinerator (5pts), or a Heavy Incinerator (15pts).
Purgation Squads: Lose all of the Close Combat stuff (Including Hammerhand), and Night Vision in exchange for the Perfect Timing Psychic power from Divination. Also give them Missile Launchers and Flak Missiles as optional upgrades.
Nemesis Dreadknight: Add a Storm Shield option to the second bullet point for 30pts.
270- Land Raider Redeemer, give the Flamestorm Cannon Torrent.
My reasoning: In the current version of Warhammer 40k, “Jack of all Trades, Master of none” doesn’t work, so units need to be more specialized.
Strike Squads are slimmed down to essentially being Scouts.
Purgation Squads are actually able to fill the role of Devastators.
Dreadnoughts serve the same role for the GK as Hydras serve in the AM.
HQ prices are balanced so the Librarian won’t be the only choice taken in most games.
Paladins have survivability to better balance their Opportunity costs.
Thus, every unit is unique, and has a special role, making every unit in the Codex viable for competitive play without certain units being “handicaps”. As I said at the beginning, it’s not about making the Grey Knights better than other codexes. Ideally, every Codex would be fixed to have good internal balance, with unique flavors to the units of each. The Codexes can’t be balanced with each other, if they don’t each have their own internal balance.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/24 04:46:17
Perhaps make the StormShield on the NDK a 4++ and cost more?
T6 2+ 5++ W4 is downright brutal, even for the cost. But at least with an army full of AT weapons, it can go down. A T6 2+3++ W4 is just plain stupid wrong. Even if it couldn't move 12".
Change the Primaris Power for Sanctic to a Warp Charge 1 Blessing that targets the Psyker’s unit and grants +1 Strength to shooting attacks.
Instead of Codex-wide Banishment, give Stern's Zone of Banishment to the HQs Purifiers, and Paladins.
+1S "Psybolts" really makes 0 sense. It was a silly idea in the last codex, and still is. Rather, "Psybolts" should ideally be slightly deadlier to the likes of Daemons & Psykers. S4/Shred isn't super powerful, or else for a WC1 power, even simply allowing re-roll to-wound rolls of 1 is fair.
No to every HQ + Purifyers + Pallies getting a 24" bubble of -1 to invulns. If you want it unit wide, then shrink the bubble to a 6" radius.
*Yes you want to internally balance the book so that there are really no turd choice. HOWEVER! it's still vitally important to ensure that abilities don't go overboard on the rest of the game!
We have an entire army that relies heavily on 5++ invulns as their only real saves. Having the ability to spam 24" bubbles of -1 invuln is going to absolutely wreck that army to the point they may as well not even bother showing up.
And no, you don't "fix" this issue by suddenly giving Daemons all kinds of armour saves. Outside of Khorne's daemons, armour simply doesn't make sense for the majority of the army.
Bill1138 wrote: Special Weapons (& Terminator Special Weapons)
Psilencer: S5, Salvo 4/6, Range 36”, (still Force)
Psycannon: Range 36”
Dreadnought Weapons:
TL Autocannon option: Make it a Hydra Autocannon, or add a Skyfire Upgrade to the existing Autocannon.
If Psilencer goes S5, then Force needs to go. Otherwise there's no point in ever bringing T4/5 multi-wound units that aren't sporting 3+ or better saves.
Up'ing the range alone to 36" would make the current version much more flexible. Or else if you really must have 36"/S5, then giving it the likes of 'always wounds Daemons & Psykers on a 4+' would be a viable idea in place of the godly S5/Force.
Remove the Rending rule from Psycannons. Otherwise, that 24" range is the only thing keeping it from being acomplete no-brainer like it was last codex. (and fix the actual Salvo rules via the BRB!)
Just stick to giving Dreads the option to by the Skyfire ability as an additional upgrade. Hydra Autocannons would frankly look incredibly silly on a Dread due to size issues!
Bill1138 wrote: HQs 125pts- Brother-Captain: same options and costs
150pts- Brother-Captain Stern:
100pts- Brotherhood Champion:
125pts- Castellan Crowe:
- 5pts for a Force weapon + Mastery Lv. (including Telepathy access!) is a bit too cheap. 135-140 pts is still giving a 10-15pts discount to him on just the Psyker Lv. alone, while allowing the Pointy-Death stick for free essentially.
- Reduce his Zone of Banishment to 6" radius then. Keep in mind he's also a Lv2 Psyker as well, and comes guaranteed with the godly Sanctuary power.
- Crowe is too cheap at only 125pts. While he's currently over-costed, 140-150pts would is likely where he really *should* be, as he is Lv2, is +1A over a regular Bro Champ, gets I6/ap2 + re-rolls saves in Challenges AND allows for the sheer amazaballs'ness of a double-Cleanser party Rhino! (trust me, getting to fire off 2x Cleansing Flame is pretty nasty, and is a fantastic counter to any Flying Circus list out there!)
Normally I'm paying 230pts + 185 pts to do the same with Ahriman in a Rhino squad, with a big risk thrown in there. GK's can do the same, but without the almost guaranteed Perils and for cheaper.
*Note: Add in the Chaplain as a playable option.
150pts base: Termie armour + Nemesis Crozius (cannot be exchanged - EVER!) + Storm Bolter + Lv1 w/Hammerhand, Banishment & Sanctuary powers.
Can upgrade Storm bolter to a Combi-Flamer/Melta/Plasma like the Libby.
- There's no reason this guy shouldn't allowed now that the perverbial cat's out of the bag with a fully fleshed out GK codex. Should have been in the last book too. Perhaps even cost him at 165pts base because the Zealot rule is amazaballs.
Bill1138 wrote: Troops
Strike Squads: Forget what they currently are. Make them for the Grey Knights what Scouts are for the Space Marines, (relatively) cheap shooty units with Infiltrate, and the ability to take Homers. Change their gear and other special rules appropriately.
No. You cannot simply ditch your iconic equipment just because you want cheap as chips squads. The only thing Strikes need to "fix" them is to give them the Scout USR.
Infiltrate is simply too powerful. Imagine a Tournament scenario where you're only allowed to deploy 1HQ + 2 Troops units. The GK player infiltrates their Strikes to within 12.1-13" from the enemy's two units and then win the roll for 1st turn. Thanks to the Nemesis Strikeforce rules, you bring down Termies + whatever else from your Deep Strike reserves, and land everything safely within prime murdering range thanks to your infiltrated Teley Homers.
BOOM! You wipe out everything your opponent has on the table. Game is effectively over in half a turn because of how powerful Infiltrate is in a Grey Knight army.
Scout still lets Strikes function much like their background, but it keeps the alpha strike from instantly breaking the game, as your reserves cannot come down risk-free within your opponent's deployment zone before they can potentially even get a chance to react.
As for Termies:
1. Make them 35pts/model base
2. Allow a 2nd special weapon upgrade for any unit over 5 models. (ie: 6 - 10 strong units can double up)
*Note: I'd make this latter change applicable to every single Termie unit, as right now, non-GK Termies are overall purely 'meh', despite being such a fun unit.
Bill1138 wrote: Elite
150pts- Paladin Squad of 3, with additional Paladins costing 50pts each, and add optional Storm Shields for 10pts each.
100pts Dreadnought: TL Autocannon option: Make it a Hydra Autocannon, or add a Skyfire Upgrade to the existing Autocannon.
No Storm Shields, especially on Pallies! You have far too much ability to spam Santic and gain multiple copies of Sanctuary. Add in IG Priests and suddenly you've got ready access to re-rollable 2++ saves in combat.
If it's game breaking for Xenos armies to pull out re-rolled 2++ shenanigans, why should your Grey Knights, (or rather Imperials in general), suddenly get the same but can call it "balanced" and "fair"?
The only thing for Pallies would be to bring back the Holocaust power. (and no, not as a S6+/ap2 monstrosity either - unless it becomes similar to Typhus' Destroyer Hive and is a one-use only ability...)
Just give the Dread the ability to buy the Skyfire ability on twin-linked autocannons. Hydra cannons would frankly look hilariously stupid on a Dread!
***Purifyers: Can only take 1 special weapon at 5 men. Get the second slot at full 10 men like all the other PA squads bar the Purgators.
Bill1138 wrote: Fast
Razorback, exchange the TL Heavy Flamer option for a TL Incinerator (5pts), or a Heavy Incinerator (15pts).
Heavy Incinerator should easily be +20pts.
*Note: Add in the option for Grey Knights to take Land Speeders.
High tech, ancient equipment? Definitely fits the GK's image. Fun option would be to add Relic Plating as an additional upgrade! You don't really want to be giving out Psychic Pilot as the army already spams enough WC's, but for 3-5pts/model, you effectively give the Speeders the same benefit of being a Lv1 vs. any powers targeting them.
Oh, and add Relic Plating to the GK vehicle upgrades in the Armoury itself
Bill1138 wrote: Purgation Squads: Lose all of the Close Combat stuff (Including Hammerhand), and Night Vision in exchange for the Perfect Timing Psychic power from Divination. Also give them Missile Launchers and Flak Missiles as optional upgrades.
Nemesis Dreadknight: Add a Storm Shield option to the second bullet point for 30pts.
270- Land Raider Redeemer, give the Flamestorm Cannon Torrent.
NO! You cannot dump what makes a Grey Knight a Grey Knight simply because you don't like eating the cost of replacing with specials!
Missile launchers equally make no sense. If you're 'fixing' the range of the other specials and/or perhaps dropping the cost slightly of the Psycannon (and assuming Salvo gets fixed in the BRB), then you've got enough tools without shoehorning in the stuff regular Marines get.
Make the Dreadknight no quite so much of a no-brainer auto-take, and dial back Purifyers to their assault specialist role instead of being "Super-Everything!" and suddenly Purgators find a solid role.
Adding a Storm Shield as an option to the Dreadknight is not "fixing" or "balancing" anything. Rather, it's just breaking the freaking game! You have Sanctuary on this guy. He's already viewed as undercosted and hailed as one of the best MC's in the game. Now you want him running around with a near guaranteed 2++ save to top it off?!
(hint: this is why people will call you out - this idea is equivalent to me trying say that I should be able to pick my Gifts & Psy Powers on my LoC, because... "reasons")
Bill1138 wrote: My reasoning: In the current version of Warhammer 40k, “Jack of all Trades, Master of none” doesn’t work, so units need to be more specialized.
Strike Squads are slimmed down to essentially being Scouts.
Purgation Squads are actually able to fill the role of Devastators.
Dreadnoughts serve the same role for the GK as Hydras serve in the AM.
HQ prices are balanced so the Librarian won’t be the only choice taken in most games.
Paladins have survivability to better balance their Opportunity costs.
Thus, every unit is unique, and has a special role, making every unit in the Codex viable for competitive play without certain units being “handicaps”. As I said at the beginning, it’s not about making the Grey Knights better than other codexes. Ideally, every Codex would be fixed to have good internal balance, with unique flavors to the units of each. The Codexes can’t be balanced with each other, if they don’t each have their own internal balance.
- You can't remove the defining feature of Marines in general. Sorry, but if you really want an entire army of specialists, then don't play Marines!
- So, give Strike Squad the Scout USR. Don't make them something they're not - they're still Grey Knights.
- Purgations would suit their role perfectly well by fixing the Dreadknight & dialing back the number of weapons Purifyers get to carry.
- Dreads don't need a gun that's twice their physical size though - just allow them to buy Skyfire on their dual twin-autocannons.
- HQ's might need a very slight reduction on the whole, but the Libby could also equally do with a very slight pts increase
- Paladins are already survivable. What we don't need is yet another 2++ re-rolled Deathstar!!
I'm sorry, but there are certainly a good number of suggestions here that do indeed look like they're simply about making Grey Knights better than everyone else...
And yes, it is definitely possible to make the codices both internally well balanaced, while at the same time making them fairly well balanced externally against the other books!
Just blindly trying to balance each book internally and outright ignoring how "fixes" would interact with the wider game is exactly how you go about creating the types of monstrosities such as 5th ed Grey Knights and 7th ed Daemons of Chaos.
I got to spend roughly 2 years of being forced to shelve my entire army because of such abysmal games design thanks to the last GK codex which auto-won vs. Daemons. Let's please not try and go back to those types of games.
Change the Primaris Power for Sanctic to a Warp Charge 1 Blessing that targets the Psyker’s unit and grants +1 Strength to shooting attacks.
Instead of Codex-wide Banishment, give Stern's Zone of Banishment to the HQs Purifiers, and Paladins.
+1S "Psybolts" really makes 0 sense. It was a silly idea in the last codex, and still is. Rather, "Psybolts" should ideally be slightly deadlier to the likes of Daemons & Psykers. S4/Shred isn't super powerful, or else for a WC1 power, even simply allowing re-roll to-wound rolls of 1 is fair.
So you're accepting the premise of a Primaris power that improves shooting, but disagreeing on the application? Shred is a good suggestion, but do you have to keep calling my suggestions "silly" or "stupid" rather than just giving your suggestions. It really just needlessly taints my opinion of you.
No to every HQ + Purifyers + Pallies getting a 24" bubble of -1 to invulns. If you want it unit wide, then shrink the bubble to a 6" radius.
*Yes you want to internally balance the book so that there are really no turd choice. HOWEVER! it's still vitally important to ensure that abilities don't go overboard on the rest of the game!
We have an entire army that relies heavily on 5++ invulns as their only real saves. Having the ability to spam 24" bubbles of -1 invuln is going to absolutely wreck that army to the point they may as well not even bother showing up.
And no, you don't "fix" this issue by suddenly giving Daemons all kinds of armour saves. Outside of Khorne's daemons, armour simply doesn't make sense for the majority of the army.
Check Stern's Zone of Banishment. It allows a -1 (to a minimum of 6++) for all units within 12", OR one unit within 24", so it is NOT a 24" bubble. And most of your army having a 5+ Invulnerable Save that can't suffer more than a -1 TOTAL regardless of how many of these you're up against, added to the fact that your Demon Princes and Greater Daemons can tear through Grey Knights in close combat with their higher Initiative, means that you most definitely are not wrecked, especially since the units you have with better Invulnerable saves generally have Armor saves that the Grey Knight shooting can't ignore, making the penalty to the Invulnerable save less significant. And don't forget that you have SUMMONING. Whatever the agreed pt total, your oponent may have to face up to double that amount of Daemons over the course of a game.
Bill1138 wrote: Special Weapons (& Terminator Special Weapons)
Psilencer: S5, Salvo 4/6, Range 36”, (still Force)
Psycannon: Range 36”
Dreadnought Weapons:
TL Autocannon option: Make it a Hydra Autocannon, or add a Skyfire Upgrade to the existing Autocannon.
If Psilencer goes S5, then Force needs to go. Otherwise there's no point in ever bringing T4/5 multi-wound units that aren't sporting 3+ or better saves.
Up'ing the range alone to 36" would make the current version much more flexible. Or else if you really must have 36"/S5, then giving it the likes of 'always wounds Daemons & Psykers on a 4+' would be a viable idea in place of the godly S5/Force.
You forget that the Grey Knights only get 3 Special Weapons in their entire Codex. Force is a power that has to be cast, and CAN be denied. And don't give me some spiel about the Grey Knight dice pool, because the Grey Knights are reliant on their powers for so much that they don't have many left for each individual power unless they just don't cast the others. If you have some multi-wound T4-5 model, then use your Warp Charges to deny that Force.
Remove the Rending rule from Psycannons. Otherwise, that 24" range is the only thing keeping it from being acomplete no-brainer like it was last codex. (and fix the actual Salvo rules via the BRB!)
The Psycannon has been the backbone of the Grey Knight Codex since Daemon Hunters. It is the only take-all-comers weapon in the entire Codex. It is the only gun capable of damaging anything T8+ or AV11+ at more than 9". Let that sink in. The Grey Knights' Incinerator is fine, the Psycannon needs to stay anti armor (For Soul Grinders among other things). The Grey Knights don't have other weapons to fall back on if you make these obsolete. As I told you before with your previous Psycannon argument, your changes would make it WORSE than the standard Storm Bolter that comes standard on the model.
Just stick to giving Dreads the option to by the Skyfire ability as an additional upgrade. Hydra Autocannons would frankly look incredibly silly on a Dread due to size issues!
Bill1138 wrote: HQs 125pts- Brother-Captain: same options and costs
150pts- Brother-Captain Stern:
100pts- Brotherhood Champion:
125pts- Castellan Crowe:
- 5pts for a Force weapon + Mastery Lv. (including Telepathy access!) is a bit too cheap. 135-140 pts is still giving a 10-15pts discount to him on just the Psyker Lv. alone, while allowing the Pointy-Death stick for free essentially.
You're STILL charging Grey Knights for their Chapter Tactics. You are showing disproportional bias against the Grey Knights.
- Reduce his Zone of Banishment to 6" radius then. Keep in mind he's also a Lv2 Psyker as well, and comes guaranteed with the godly Sanctuary power.
Already addressed Zone of Banishment. Sanctuary is far from "godly" when compared to what the other Codexes have.
- Crowe is too cheap at only 125pts. While he's currently over-costed, 140-150pts would is likely where he really *should* be, as he is Lv2, is +1A over a regular Bro Champ, gets I6/ap2 + re-rolls saves in Challenges AND allows for the sheer amazaballs'ness of a double-Cleanser party Rhino! (trust me, getting to fire off 2x Cleansing Flame is pretty nasty, and is a fantastic counter to any Flying Circus list out there!)
Normally I'm paying 230pts + 185 pts to do the same with Ahriman in a Rhino squad, with a big risk thrown in there. GK's can do the same, but without the almost guaranteed Perils and for cheaper.
You know what else gets off a double Cleansing Flame from a Rhino? Combat Squaded Purifiers! Amazing, right? And they get a bunch more attacks when they finally disembark than Crowe would get too! And every Purifier that doesn't take a Special Weapon has AP2-3 ALL THE TIME, while Crowe has AP- outside of Challenges. The only possible reason to take Crowe is to be sure to have Cleansing Flame on a Gate of Infinity unit.
*Note: Add in the Chaplain as a playable option.
150pts base: Termie armour + Nemesis Crozius (cannot be exchanged - EVER!) + Storm Bolter + Lv1 w/Hammerhand, Banishment & Sanctuary powers.
Can upgrade Storm bolter to a Combi-Flamer/Melta/Plasma like the Libby.
- There's no reason this guy shouldn't allowed now that the perverbial cat's out of the bag with a fully fleshed out GK codex. Should have been in the last book too. Perhaps even cost him at 165pts base because the Zealot rule is amazaballs.
Bill1138 wrote: Troops
Strike Squads: Forget what they currently are. Make them for the Grey Knights what Scouts are for the Space Marines, (relatively) cheap shooty units with Infiltrate, and the ability to take Homers. Change their gear and other special rules appropriately.
No. You cannot simply ditch your iconic equipment just because you want cheap as chips squads. The only thing Strikes need to "fix" them is to give them the Scout USR.
Infiltrate is simply too powerful. Imagine a Tournament scenario where you're only allowed to deploy 1HQ + 2 Troops units. The GK player infiltrates their Strikes to within 12.1-13" from the enemy's two units and then win the roll for 1st turn. Thanks to the Nemesis Strikeforce rules, you bring down Termies + whatever else from your Deep Strike reserves, and land everything safely within prime murdering range thanks to your infiltrated Teley Homers.
BOOM! You wipe out everything your opponent has on the table. Game is effectively over in half a turn because of how powerful Infiltrate is in a Grey Knight army.
Again this tedious bias against the Grey Knights is wearying. You insist that they have to have all of the upgrades, regardless of how high it raises their price, yet refuse anything that improves their survivability, making them completely unplayable. Special Weapons already remove Nemesis Force Weapons from models. Grey Knights DON'T have to have Nemesis Weapons. There is no reason they can't have a unit that doesn't have them standard.
And stop with the deliberatley misleading terminology. Infiltrate can never be within 12" of an opponent. This "1/13 inch" nonsense needs to stop. And you assume the Grey Knights get the first turn. If they drop a Strike Squad where you said and don't get first turn, that unit will be turned into so much red paste, so it would be extremely reckless for the Grey Knights to attempt. And if the opponent isn't a complete noob, he should be able to deploy his forces where the Grey Knights can't Infiltrate or Deep Strike in such a vulnerable location.
Scout still lets Strikes function much like their background, but it keeps the alpha strike from instantly breaking the game, as your reserves cannot come down risk-free within your opponent's deployment zone before they can potentially even get a chance to react.
As I've said multiple times, Scout moves are useless for the Grey Knights for the purposes of getting the Terminators reliably to somewhere they couldn't run to just as quickly. Scout is not a solution. Turning the Strike Squads into a Scout unit with Infiltrate does solve the problem, and is no more powerful than what the rest of the Space Marine chapters are capable of.
As for Termies:
1. Make them 35pts/model base
2. Allow a 2nd special weapon upgrade for any unit over 5 models. (ie: 6 - 10 strong units can double up)
*Note: I'd make this latter change applicable to every single Termie unit, as right now, non-GK Termies are overall purely 'meh', despite being such a fun unit.
Bill1138 wrote: Elite
150pts- Paladin Squad of 3, with additional Paladins costing 50pts each, and add optional Storm Shields for 10pts each.
100pts Dreadnought: TL Autocannon option: Make it a Hydra Autocannon, or add a Skyfire Upgrade to the existing Autocannon.
No Storm Shields, especially on Pallies! You have far too much ability to spam Santic and gain multiple copies of Sanctuary. Add in IG Priests and suddenly you've got ready access to re-rollable 2++ saves in combat.
If it's game breaking for Xenos armies to pull out re-rolled 2++ shenanigans, why should your Grey Knights, (or rather Imperials in general), suddenly get the same but can call it "balanced" and "fair"?
The only thing for Pallies would be to bring back the Holocaust power. (and no, not as a S6+/ap2 monstrosity either - unless it becomes similar to Typhus' Destroyer Hive and is a one-use only ability...)
Kitted out Paladins cost twice as much as Terminators, but do not have twice the survivability. They are not worth their points. Improving their Invulnerable Saves (note I'm not saying to do it for free, my suggestion would increase their cost in exchange for the survivability) would fix this. And as always, you put way, WAY too much emphasis on Psychic powers. Paladins don't have access to Sanctuary. The only way they'd get that is from a Brother Captain, or Librarian, and both are only chances to get it unless you take Stern. But by the time you've done this the unit is so expensive that it most definitely is not overpowered for the cost, especially since the game is full of Super Heavy units now. A kitted out Squad of Paladins with my proposed Storm Shields and Stern would cost more than a Baneblade. Take that into account when you're making your arguments.
Just give the Dread the ability to buy the Skyfire ability on twin-linked autocannons. Hydra cannons would frankly look hilariously stupid on a Dread!
***Purifyers: Can only take 1 special weapon at 5 men. Get the second slot at full 10 men like all the other PA squads bar the Purgators.
There is no reason to make that change.
Bill1138 wrote: Fast
Razorback, exchange the TL Heavy Flamer option for a TL Incinerator (5pts), or a Heavy Incinerator (15pts).
Heavy Incinerator should easily be +20pts.
Heavy Incinerator is 20pts on the Dreadknight, which has much better mobility and survivability than a Razorback. Having the weapon cost as much for the Razorback would be just stupid, and doesn't fit with how weapons are priced. Special Weapons cost more for Terminators than they do for PAGK for similar reasons.
*Note: Add in the option for Grey Knights to take Land Speeders.
High tech, ancient equipment? Definitely fits the GK's image. Fun option would be to add Relic Plating as an additional upgrade! You don't really want to be giving out Psychic Pilot as the army already spams enough WC's, but for 3-5pts/model, you effectively give the Speeders the same benefit of being a Lv1 vs. any powers targeting them.
As I've said (apparently to the wall), The Grey Knights need their units FIXED, not new units tacked on top of unfieldable ones.
Oh, and add Relic Plating to the GK vehicle upgrades in the Armoury itself
I could go for Relic Plating options being added for vehicles. I am surprised at who the suggestion came from though.
Bill1138 wrote: Purgation Squads: Lose all of the Close Combat stuff (Including Hammerhand), and Night Vision in exchange for the Perfect Timing Psychic power from Divination. Also give them Missile Launchers and Flak Missiles as optional upgrades.
Nemesis Dreadknight: Add a Storm Shield option to the second bullet point for 30pts.
270- Land Raider Redeemer, give the Flamestorm Cannon Torrent.
NO! You cannot dump what makes a Grey Knight a Grey Knight simply because you don't like eating the cost of replacing with specials!
A Grey Knight is what he is because his Primarch is the Emeror, not because he swings a sword. Designated shooting units shouldn't have to pay for a weapon they are never going to use. Other Codexes don't have to put up with this nonsense.
Missile launchers equally make no sense. If you're 'fixing' the range of the other specials and/or perhaps dropping the cost slightly of the Psycannon (and assuming Salvo gets fixed in the BRB), then you've got enough tools without shoehorning in the stuff regular Marines get.
My suggestion involved Salvo staying as it is, and this suggestion was in light of that. You saying it is wrong because you jumped to a conclusion I didn't isn't sensible. When you say something doesn't make sense, what is your basis of comparison? Missile Launchers would finally give the Grey Knights a 48" shooting weapon that has an optional upgrade for Skyfire on an infantry unit. The addition of a Missile Launcher with Flak missiles alone would make Purgation Squads worth taking.
Make the Dreadknight no quite so much of a no-brainer auto-take, and dial back Purifyers to their assault specialist role instead of being "Super-Everything!" and suddenly Purgators find a solid role.
Your suggestion is (self censored) everyone else to make the Purgators look better by comparison really is not sensible and is contrary to the goal of fleshing out the Codex. Your goal seems to be to cut down the parts that stand out instead of filling in the low bits.
Adding a Storm Shield as an option to the Dreadknight is not "fixing" or "balancing" anything. Rather, it's just breaking the freaking game! You have Sanctuary on this guy. He's already viewed as undercosted and hailed as one of the best MC's in the game. Now you want him running around with a near guaranteed 2++ save to top it off?!
(hint: this is why people will call you out - this idea is equivalent to me trying say that I should be able to pick my Gifts & Psy Powers on my LoC, because... "reasons")
I don't know where you get your information, but the Dreadknight dies easily, and is in no way under-costed. And my proposed increase to survivability would limit his potential ranged weapons to 1, instead of 2. Currently, any close-combat Greater Daemon or Daemon Prince can kill a Dreadknight without much effort with a Initiative of 5 or higher, when Dreadknights are supposed to be good at slaying Greater Daemons in close combat. And 30 points for Storm Shield does increase the cost of the Dreadknight.
You really need to see to that faulty notion that anything that works is "over powered".
Bill1138 wrote: My reasoning: In the current version of Warhammer 40k, “Jack of all Trades, Master of none” doesn’t work, so units need to be more specialized.
Strike Squads are slimmed down to essentially being Scouts.
Purgation Squads are actually able to fill the role of Devastators.
Dreadnoughts serve the same role for the GK as Hydras serve in the AM.
HQ prices are balanced so the Librarian won’t be the only choice taken in most games.
Paladins have survivability to better balance their Opportunity costs.
Thus, every unit is unique, and has a special role, making every unit in the Codex viable for competitive play without certain units being “handicaps”. As I said at the beginning, it’s not about making the Grey Knights better than other codexes. Ideally, every Codex would be fixed to have good internal balance, with unique flavors to the units of each. The Codexes can’t be balanced with each other, if they don’t each have their own internal balance.
- You can't remove the defining feature of Marines in general. Sorry, but if you really want an entire army of specialists, then don't play Marines!
I already have Grey Knights, I used to field a great variety of them, using each for a specialized role. The New Codex broke this, and stripped all of the character from the units. Telling me to not play them is just trolling, because I can't afford to start a new army. You are being the opposite of helpful.
- So, give Strike Squad the Scout USR. Don't make them something they're not - they're still Grey Knights.
I told you why that wouldn't help, multiple times.
- Purgations would suit their role perfectly well by fixing the Dreadknight & dialing back the number of weapons Purifyers get to carry.
You don't fix a unit by castrating others. You wouldn't want a doctor to try to mend your broken arm by cutting off your leg, yet that's your suggestion for the Grey Knights.
- Dreads don't need a gun that's twice their physical size though - just allow them to buy Skyfire on their dual twin-autocannons.
If you'd payed attention, that was one of my suggestions.
- HQ's might need a very slight reduction on the whole, but the Libby could also equally do with a very slight pts increase
- Paladins are already survivable. What we don't need is yet another 2++ re-rolled Deathstar!!
Storm Shields are 3++, My suggested price for them was fair to what Vanilla Marines pay. Sanctuary is a Psychic power not directly available to Paladins, and geared out with Storm Shields, with a HQ for Sanctuary makes them about as expensive as a Baneblade, so they are appropriately priced. Making it re-rollable isn't available to the Grey Knights. And other Codexes having a powerful units isn't an argument against this Codex having any, especially since you CLAIM to want to balance the Codeses.
I'm sorry, but there are certainly a good number of suggestions here that do indeed look like they're simply about making Grey Knights better than everyone else...
And yes, it is definitely possible to make the codices both internally well balanaced, while at the same time making them fairly well balanced externally against the other books!
Just blindly trying to balance each book internally and outright ignoring how "fixes" would interact with the wider game is exactly how you go about creating the types of monstrosities such as 5th ed Grey Knights and 7th ed Daemons of Chaos.
External Balance can be achieved after Internal Balance. It is pointless to try to balance a codex with another codex that has both drastically over-priced units and other that are over-powered. There is no standard. What needs done is for each Codex to be looked at on its own, fixed, and rounded out, THEN compared to the other Codexes, and the total power scaled up or down. And really this all needs to be done simultaniously, rather than trying to cope with the other broken stuff already in the game. That (Making Codexes as responses to broken things already in the game) is why 6th edition 40k was such a mess.
I got to spend roughly 2 years of being forced to shelve my entire army because of such abysmal games design thanks to the last GK codex which auto-won vs. Daemons. Let's please not try and go back to those types of games.
I played against Daemons in 6th Edition and they won as many games against me as they lost, so if you always lost, you were doing something wrong. You should really stop letting your issues with past editions cloud your vision of what the current issues with the game are.
How many DPs can do 4 wounds to a t6 5++ model in one round? Maybe Black Mace:
(A)(2/3)(5/6)(2/3) = 4 means they need 4(3/2)(6/5)(3/2) attacks, or (54/5), or 11 attacks in a single round to kill a DK *on average*.
DK killing a DP?
(A)(1/2)(5/6)(2/3) = 1, or (1)(3/2)(6/5)(2/1) = 18/5, or a little more than 3 attacks, on average, to ID a Demon Prince (S10 -> T5).
So most DPs will struggle to significantly hurt a DK, with the best still very unlikely to 1-round them. But a DK will be very unlikely to *not* 1-round the DP.
His +1.5 inches is coming from the DS model bases.
The 12" comes from infiltrating at 18, then scouting 6". And that's for T1 deep strikes. T2 lets you move closer still.
You are fixated on making GK strike squads infiltration experts. We're all familiar with GK being more Space Marine than Space Marines in the same way Space Marines are more Space Marine than IG. But being a Space Marine is more than simply being better at what you do. Its about being better at all combat roles. Being better at only one thing isn't what being an SM is all about. ASM are still BS4. Devs are still WS4, and wear power armor. GKs are all Psykers, and all carry Force Weapons. It is integral to their fluff.
And 3++ on Termies might not sound huge, but it really, really is. Look at the other 2++ options in the game. Shadow field? Expensive and goes away after the first failure. Demons? Stacking several rules. Its supposed to be hard. Throwing up Sanctuary on GK pallies? Not that hard. Not free, but easier than most.
Bharring wrote: How many DPs can do 4 wounds to a t6 5++ model in one round? Maybe Black Mace:
(A)(2/3)(5/6)(2/3) = 4 means they need 4(3/2)(6/5)(3/2) attacks, or (54/5), or 11 attacks in a single round to kill a DK *on average*.
DK killing a DP?
(A)(1/2)(5/6)(2/3) = 1, or (1)(3/2)(6/5)(2/1) = 18/5, or a little more than 3 attacks, on average, to ID a Demon Prince (S10 -> T5).
So most DPs will struggle to significantly hurt a DK, with the best still very unlikely to 1-round them. But a DK will be very unlikely to *not* 1-round the DP.
I trust you're more clever than this. The Drop Pod is the means of arrival for the unit inside, AND it can provide reduced scatter for other units. And at AV12, no attacks lower than S6 can hurt it, while the Dreadknight can be wounded by massed S4 shooting (which is fairly standard across most codexes)
Wow! I am so sorry about that. Upon re-reading it is clear that you were talking about Daemon Princes while I was talking about Drop Pods.
His +1.5 inches is coming from the DS model bases.
The 12" comes from infiltrating at 18, then scouting 6". And that's for T1 deep strikes. T2 lets you move closer still.
Where does this "+1.5 inches" come from 626 was making references to 1/13th of an inch. As for Scout moves, arguing that something I suggested wouldn't work, because of adding a rule that I didn't suggest, is a logical fallacy.
You are fixated on making GK strike squads infiltration experts. We're all familiar with GK being more Space Marine than Space Marines in the same way Space Marines are more Space Marine than IG. But being a Space Marine is more than simply being better at what you do. Its about being better at all combat roles. Being better at only one thing isn't what being an SM is all about. ASM are still BS4. Devs are still WS4, and wear power armor. GKs are all Psykers, and all carry Force Weapons. It is integral to their fluff.
That is utter cow droppings. Space Marines have designated shooting units that don't have to be special at close combat, and they have designated close combat units that don't have to worry about shooting. And each are better at their role than any infantry Grey Knight unit is at either for the same points. Every unit in the Space Marines is not a Jack of all trades. They each Specialize. Not letting the Grey Knights specialize is why people keep complaining that the Grey Knights are one-note, and boring to play against.
Honestly, it's like a bunch of people standing around a drippy faucet, yet refusing to let anyone turn it off
And 3++ on Termies might not sound huge, but it really, really is. Look at the other 2++ options in the game. Shadow field? Expensive and goes away after the first failure. Demons? Stacking several rules. Its supposed to be hard. Throwing up Sanctuary on GK pallies? Not that hard. Not free, but easier than most.
Most armies have access to Divination. Divination has a power that allows you to re-roll ALL SAVES. Space Marine Terminators with a re-rollable 3++ is much more powerful than Sanctuary improving an invulnerable save to 2++ So people need to stop going on as if the Grey Knights would be getting something unprecedented and spectacular with Storm Shields when practically everyone else already has access to it.
Paladins as I suggested would cost 250pts for 5, and if we assume the Storm Shield replaces a weapon, you'd get 4 Storm Shields (40pts) and the Apothecary, Brotherhood Banner, Hammer, and 3 Halberds would bring the total to 351pts. But they don't have Sanctuary, so they'd still had a NON-rerollable 3++.
Guaranteed access to Sanctuary would require Brother Captain Stern, currently at 185pts, but I feel is worth closer to 150pts. So if we use my suggestion for Stern's price, we have a 6-man unit, totalling 13 Wounds, with 2+ all around, but 4 2++, 1, 3++, and one 4++ assuming Sanctuary goes off, and Feel No Pain. Their shooting totals to one Storm Bolter, and in close combat they have a couple attacks each. So this exclusively close combat unit with about an 11% chance of not saving any non-instant death wound, costs 501 points.
That is one highly survivable, exclusively close combat infantry unit consisting of only 6 models that costs as much as 2 Land Raiders, or almost as much as a Baneblade. Adding Draigo or for Gate of infinity, add another 245pts. Want re-rollable 2++ on those 4 guys (now only half the unit), that'll cost you a Librarian rolling on Divination, and at L3 (bringing the Librarian up to 135pts), you only have a 50% chance of getting it. The new total for this super unit that people are so scared of?
881 points. Even if you take a L3 Librarian with the DLD for Sactuary and Gate of Infinity instead of Draigo and Stern, and another L3 Librarian for the 50% chance to get Precognition, that still leaves your total at 746 points, still more than any fully upgraded Baneblade varient. Fielding that unit would be completely throwing the game away. People need to take a look at the facts before lashing out in fear and ignorance against other people's ideas.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/07 14:51:26
1. Infiltrate allows for deployment within 12.1" of the enemy if you can block all LoS to them. In missions where both players are limited to how many units they can itially deploy, (especially common in Tournaments), this makes it utter game breaking on Strike Squads.
The game will effectively boil down to whether or not the Grey Knights go first... if they do, then with the NSF detachment, you've got the ability to likely completely cripple your opponent before they even get a chance to react in any way. (unless they're hiding all their stuff inside av13+ bunkers/vehicles)
That's broken as feth. That's really no different to the Warp Quake shenanigans of the last book that outright removed Daemons as a playable army.
Scout on the other hand gives the Grey Knight player an advantage in getting their forces into the thick of things right off the bat, but your opponent still has a chance to react, especially when going second, as the Knights will not be landing half an entire freaking army, 100% risk free, right in the midst of their deployment zone!
2. Grey Knights are defined by their equipment. Every Knight carries a storm bolter and Nemesis weapon, just as every Space Marine is equally defined by his Bolter. Specialists, such as heavy/special weapon troopers or assault specialists will trade out their gear, but they're always the exception rather than the rule. A Devastator Squad for example doesn't get to forfeit their mostly useless Bolters to make the squad cheaper and more dedicated to their intended role.
Grey Knights likewise should not get special treatment just because. You keep them 'cheaper' by not further upgrading the Nemesis weapons across the rest of the squad.
Your problem is you keep comparing Grey Knights to standard Space Marines. They are not typical Marines!
As for the 'specialisation' of Grey Knights... ideally it should be:
- Strikes = Vanguard units capable of early land grabs and/or outflanking moves. Hence, give them Scout.
- Terminators = Generalist heavy combat unit.
- Purifyers = Close combat specialists. Remove the added special weapon slots as this is treading all over the toes of Purgators atm!
- Purgators = Dedicated special weapons squad. The fun part is, unlike their closest equivalent, the Devastators, these guys are fully capable of fighting off the types of things that normally like to nobble assault-ineffective support units!
- Paladins = Elite generalist unit able to tackle even the toughest of foes and tank damage for IC's.
3. Storm Shields.
I'm really sorry, but dismissing Psychic powers as being a non-factor in determining whether or not it's perfectly balanced to give GK's instant 3++ which can be easily buffed for almost no effort is frankly insulting...
Librarians are very cheap, and a single one per army can take 4 rolls on Santic. That almost guarantees that model will land Sanctuary. Add an IG Priest as an ally, (and can be done relatively cheaply), and you now have a Deathstar unit that no one wants to put up with.
Sure you sinking upwards of 600-700pts into said unit. Keep in mind that:
The Daemon version requires the casting of a Psychic power, (Forewarning or Cursed Earth), plus the application of the Grimoire of True Names, (which can backfire and inflict -1 save AND can never apply it's bonus to the model carrying it, leaving him rather vulnerable), plus pretty much requires Fateweaver to ensure the Grimoire doesn't backfire, and finally, the 2++ can only be re-rolled by Daemons of Tzeentch! (who themselves are not anywhere near the utter beatstick the GK version would be!)
It doesn't mean that the Daemon re-rolled 2++ Deathstar should exist, but honestly, the Daemon player is sinking well beyond 800pts into the thing, (more like 1100pts on average!), and it's not so much a heinously broken beatstick so much as it is just an all but impossible to kill tarpit of 'uber Doooooooom! (note: the "Screamerstar" can't even shoot that much anymore)
The Grey Knight version on the other hand? Nothing in the game would stand up to a properly built GK Deathstar rocking a near unit-wide re-rolled 2++ save, except praying to get lucky and rolling lots of 6's with Str.D attacks.
Not to mention, the GK version can also rock FnP in addition to the re-rolled 2++! (not even Daemons or Eldar get quite THAT obnoxious!)
Precognition btw only ever effects the Psyker casting it - it cannot be applied unit wide. The Priest on the other hand is a slightly better than 50/50 shot at being able to get off unit-wide re-rolled saves in assaults. Which is where this monstrosity wants to be. (and Land Raider Crusaders/DS'ing off of Homers exist to help them out)
Besides, Storm Shields is one of the few 'leg ups' that other Marines have over Grey Knights and keep a nice amount of distinction going between them. Sure grav guns are stupid things, (especially Dev Cents), but we don't go about fixing the Vanilla Marines Deathstar issues by simply giving Grey Knights a better one. (which is the only thing we'd end up with if GK's can suddenly give their hardest unit full-on access to Storm Shields!)
Bill1138 wrote: Here's my version 3.0 idea for improving internal balance. Remember that external balance would involve fixing the problems other Codexes have, not leaving holes in this one.
Note: The Aegis, Preferred Enemy (Daemons), and 1 Mastery Level of Psyker are essentially the Grey Knights' Chapter Tactics, and the other Space Marine chapters don't have to pay for their Chapter Tactics.
Sounds generally good, though I would say that paying for ML1 is actually fairly reasonable- literally no other army in the game gets that kind of capability for free.
Bill1138 wrote: Change the Primaris Power for Sanctic to a Warp Charge 1 Blessing that targets the Psyker’s unit and grants +1 Strength to shooting attacks.
Psybolt ammunition being "+1Str" was dumb in the 5th edition book- it simply doesn't make any sense whatsoever that psychic "mind"bullets would make the shots more deadly against everything. Moreover, the current Primaris is fine as a shooting buff- you're reducing the saves of a unit whose only save is generally an invuln.
Bill1138 wrote: Instead of Codex-wide Banishment, give Stern's Zone of Banishment to the HQs Purifiers, and Paladins.
.....I do not think you really understand what that does from a high-level view of game balance.
Bill1138 wrote: Special Weapons (& Terminator Special Weapons)
Psilencer: S5, Salvo 4/6, Range 36”, (still Force)
Psycannon: Range 36”
While I am still rather fond of the Psilencer buff that I put together, it's also worth noting that if Salvo mechanics are changed, to, say be "reduce RoF when moving, keep range", then Psilencers don't really need much of a range buff. Psycannons, as mentioned by another poster shouldn't be 36" and Rending- you should get one or the other.
Of course, I am of the opinion that the current Psycannon mechanics suck and need to be retooled entirely, but hey, can't have everything I suppose.
Bill1138 wrote: Dreadnought Weapons:
TL Autocannon option: Make it a Hydra Autocannon, or add a Skyfire Upgrade to the existing Autocannon.
The latter is an easier fix; I would even go so far as to do a Mortis-dread style thing where GK Dreads can take an upgrade that allows them to choose to have Skyfire- currently, for example, Mortis dreads get Skyfire when they stand still... but if they stand still and want to shoot at gropo dudes, then they're SOL since they must gain Skyfire when standing still.
I'd also like to put forth the further consideration that GK Dreads should get the fancy anti-tarpit choppy bit from Forgeworld's GK Dread, the "Doomglaive".
Bill1138 wrote: Troops
Strike Squads: Forget what they currently are. Make them for the Grey Knights what Scouts are for the Space Marines, (relatively) cheap shooty units with Infiltrate, and the ability to take Homers. Change their gear and other special rules appropriately.
No.
Bill1138 wrote: Elite
150pts- Paladin Squad of 3, with additional Paladins costing 50pts each, and add optional Storm Shields for 10pts each.
100pts Dreadnought: TL Autocannon option: Make it a Hydra Autocannon, or add a Skyfire Upgrade to the existing Autocannon.
You already went over the Dread; please do not be redundant. Paladins starting as a 3-man squad, IMO, is fine. Paladins getting Stormshields, is not.
Bill1138 wrote: Fast
Razorback, exchange the TL Heavy Flamer option for a TL Incinerator (5pts), or a Heavy Incinerator (15pts).
I don't see much issue with this. I'd like to throw in that GK vehicles in general should be able to swap certain weapons for Psilencers, Psycannons, or Incinerators; as an example, it'd be nice to drop Psycannons/Psilencers into the HB mount on a Land Raider.
Bill1138 wrote: Purgation Squads: Lose all of the Close Combat stuff (Including Hammerhand), and Night Vision in exchange for the Perfect Timing Psychic power from Divination. Also give them Missile Launchers and Flak Missiles as optional upgrades.
Nemesis Dreadknight: Add a Storm Shield option to the second bullet point for 30pts.
270- Land Raider Redeemer, give the Flamestorm Cannon Torrent.
RE Purgation Squads: No. If they need a dedicated anti-armor weapon, then give them a super-holy-blessed Multi-Melta, as that's more thematically appropriate. Also, maybe give them a unique psychic power that makes them Relentless.
RE Dreadknights: No.
RE LR Redeemers: simpler solution; allow it to swap the Flamestorms for Heavy Incinerators, at an appropriate cost.
Bill1138 wrote: Thus, every unit is unique, and has a special role, making every unit in the Codex viable for competitive play without certain units being “handicaps”. As I said at the beginning, it’s not about making the Grey Knights better than other codexes. Ideally, every Codex would be fixed to have good internal balance, with unique flavors to the units of each. The Codexes can’t be balanced with each other, if they don’t each have their own internal balance.
I don't think you understand the implications and ripple effects that most of your ideas have.
Experiment 626 wrote: No Storm Shields, especially on Pallies! You have far too much ability to spam Santic and gain multiple copies of Sanctuary. Add in IG Priests and suddenly you've got ready access to re-rollable 2++ saves in combat.
If it's game breaking for Xenos armies to pull out re-rolled 2++ shenanigans, why should your Grey Knights, (or rather Imperials in general), suddenly get the same but can call it "balanced" and "fair"?
The only thing for Pallies would be to bring back the Holocaust power. (and no, not as a S6+/ap2 monstrosity either - unless it becomes similar to Typhus' Destroyer Hive and is a one-use only ability...)
In regards to Sanctuary and IG Priests, I'd say that the following should be done:
Sanctuary: may not stack with other effects that provide +1 to a model's invulnerable save; more-or-less, Paladins can now get up to a 4++ from that, which isn't too shabby. I do agree that Paladins don't need Stormshields either.
IG Priests: disallow re-rolling of saves; SoB Priests should allow a re-roll of the SoB-only "Shield of Faith" save, or provide some kind of little bonus to that. Otherwise, however, no more 2++ re-rollable allowed for anyone, because its bs and stupid.
WRT to Holocaust, I'd make it a melee-focused Nova power; just enough range to hit stuff in combat, but also hit hard- I'm thinking around S6, though only AP-; it's not like Daemons have armor.
Bill1138 wrote: Fast
Razorback, exchange the TL Heavy Flamer option for a TL Incinerator (5pts), or a Heavy Incinerator (15pts).
Heavy Incinerator should easily be +20pts.
I find that to be quite reasonable for the Razorback; if we allow a GK 'Deemer to swap its Flamestorms for Heavy Incinerators, I would put it at a slight discount- Land Raiders are already overpriced, and it's effectively trading AP3 for AP4/Soul Blaze... and Soul Blaze isn't super impressive in the first place anyway.
Experiment 626 wrote: *Note: Add in the option for Grey Knights to take Land Speeders.
High tech, ancient equipment? Definitely fits the GK's image. Fun option would be to add Relic Plating as an additional upgrade! You don't really want to be giving out Psychic Pilot as the army already spams enough WC's, but for 3-5pts/model, you effectively give the Speeders the same benefit of being a Lv1 vs. any powers targeting them.
Oh, and add Relic Plating to the GK vehicle upgrades in the Armoury itself
Relic Plating is...? I don't actually recall offhand, that's why I ask.
Insofar as GKs with Land Speeders... I dunno. A lot of the point of GKs is that they heavily emphasize the Knights themselves, and every vehicle they currently have pretty much is there to deliver Knights to places they can be useful. Maybe giving some more GK-specific options for GK vehicles, particularly Land Raiders, and perhaps even a GK-specific Land Raider variant?
Bill1138 wrote: Purgation Squads: Lose all of the Close Combat stuff (Including Hammerhand), and Night Vision in exchange for the Perfect Timing Psychic power from Divination. Also give them Missile Launchers and Flak Missiles as optional upgrades.
Nemesis Dreadknight: Add a Storm Shield option to the second bullet point for 30pts.
270- Land Raider Redeemer, give the Flamestorm Cannon Torrent.
NO! You cannot dump what makes a Grey Knight a Grey Knight simply because you don't like eating the cost of replacing with specials!
Missile launchers equally make no sense. If you're 'fixing' the range of the other specials and/or perhaps dropping the cost slightly of the Psycannon (and assuming Salvo gets fixed in the BRB), then you've got enough tools without shoehorning in the stuff regular Marines get.
Make the Dreadknight no quite so much of a no-brainer auto-take, and dial back Purifyers to their assault specialist role instead of being "Super-Everything!" and suddenly Purgators find a solid role.
What do you think of a "blessed MM"? It's something that's rather lacking in the GK book- dedicated anti-armor guns. It's also the sort of thing that seems like it fits with all the other short-ranged guns the GKs get, as well as the whole "gonna get purged" theme. Also emphasizes the close/mid range shooting of GKs, since that seems to be one of the strongpoints of the army on the table.
I'd also like to throw in the "make Purifiers more assault focused" is a good idea.
Aside: Purifiers does not have a "y" in it. Are you a non-native English speaker? I ask because you consistently misspell "Purifiers". Just curious, you see.
Experiment 626 wrote: - You can't remove the defining feature of Marines in general. Sorry, but if you really want an entire army of specialists, then don't play Marines!
I just want to single this out, because "army of generalists" for Marines, in practice, correlates to "army of overpriced generalists". It's moved from "feature" to "flaw", and it mostly comes down to the fact that Marines are terrible generalists. They pay for equipment that they rarely use, and then people point this out, at which point non-Marine players (oftentimes comparing to Xeno armies) will say "but you get all this stuff included, and my army doesn't get half of that at all, and the other half I have to pay for!"
Unfortunately, the reality is that substantial amounts of the equipment Marines pay for is only rarely used.
However, IMO the solution is not "remove it", but "heavily discount it". Purgation squads shouldn't pay as much for Force Weapons and grenades because they aren't going to want to be in a position to use them- but they should still keep those things and still pay for them. Similarly, bog-standard vanilla Tactical Marines should pay very little for their grenades and sidearm, because it's unlikely that they'll actually get the chance to use those things.
Bill1138 wrote: Most armies have access to Divination. Divination has a power that allows you to re-roll ALL SAVES. Space Marine Terminators with a re-rollable 3++ is much more powerful than Sanctuary improving an invulnerable save to 2++ So people need to stop going on as if the Grey Knights would be getting something unprecedented and spectacular with Storm Shields when practically everyone else already has access to it.
Now what happens when you combo that Divination power and Sanctuary and Storm Shield Paladins?
Bill1138 wrote: Paladins as I suggested would cost 250pts for 5, and if we assume the Storm Shield replaces a weapon, you'd get 4 Storm Shields (40pts) and the Apothecary, Brotherhood Banner, Hammer, and 3 Halberds would bring the total to 351pts. But they don't have Sanctuary, so they'd still had a NON-rerollable 3++.
Guaranteed access to Sanctuary would require Brother Captain Stern, currently at 185pts, but I feel is worth closer to 150pts. So if we use my suggestion for Stern's price, we have a 6-man unit, totalling 13 Wounds, with 2+ all around, but 4 2++, 1, 3++, and one 4++ assuming Sanctuary goes off, and Feel No Pain. Their shooting totals to one Storm Bolter, and in close combat they have a couple attacks each. So this exclusively close combat unit with about an 11% chance of not saving any non-instant death wound, costs 501 points.
That is one highly survivable, exclusively close combat infantry unit consisting of only 6 models that costs as much as 2 Land Raiders, or almost as much as a Baneblade. Adding Draigo or for Gate of infinity, add another 245pts. Want re-rollable 2++ on those 4 guys (now only half the unit), that'll cost you a Librarian rolling on Divination, and at L3 (bringing the Librarian up to 135pts), you only have a 50% chance of getting it. The new total for this super unit that people are so scared of?
881 points. Even if you take a L3 Librarian with the DLD for Sactuary and Gate of Infinity instead of Draigo and Stern, and another L3 Librarian for the 50% chance to get Precognition, that still leaves your total at 746 points, still more than any fully upgraded Baneblade varient. Fielding that unit would be completely throwing the game away. People need to take a look at the facts before lashing out in fear and ignorance against other people's ideas.
This "super unit" is also nearly unkillable. Skip Draigo, take Stern and the 5-man squad, and throw them in a Stormraven. Use a normal CAD, take a Skyshield pad, and start on the board.
And your 'Raven gets an invuln while it sits there.
Bill1138 wrote: Elite
150pts- Paladin Squad of 3, with additional Paladins costing 50pts each, and add optional Storm Shields for 10pts each.
100pts Dreadnought: TL Autocannon option: Make it a Hydra Autocannon, or add a Skyfire Upgrade to the existing Autocannon.
You already went over the Dread; please do not be redundant. Paladins starting as a 3-man squad, IMO, is fine. Paladins getting Stormshields, is not.
Actually, Paladins already start as 3 man units now. The only suggested change was the obnoxious Storm Shields, which will combo too perfectly within the army to create an even nastier Deathstar than the ones we currently have to put up with...
Bill1138 wrote: Fast
Razorback, exchange the TL Heavy Flamer option for a TL Incinerator (5pts), or a Heavy Incinerator (15pts).
I don't see much issue with this. I'd like to throw in that GK vehicles in general should be able to swap certain weapons for Psilencers, Psycannons, or Incinerators; as an example, it'd be nice to drop Psycannons/Psilencers into the HB mount on a Land Raider.
This would be logical, but will never happen due the fact I highly doubt GW is going to produce yet another Land Raider kit, as we already have 3 as it is! (and honestly, Chaos Marines desperately need their Land Raider looked after before Loyalists get yet another freaking variant! )
Experiment 626 wrote: No Storm Shields, especially on Pallies! You have far too much ability to spam Santic and gain multiple copies of Sanctuary. Add in IG Priests and suddenly you've got ready access to re-rollable 2++ saves in combat.
If it's game breaking for Xenos armies to pull out re-rolled 2++ shenanigans, why should your Grey Knights, (or rather Imperials in general), suddenly get the same but can call it "balanced" and "fair"?
The only thing for Pallies would be to bring back the Holocaust power. (and no, not as a S6+/ap2 monstrosity either - unless it becomes similar to Typhus' Destroyer Hive and is a one-use only ability...)
In regards to Sanctuary and IG Priests, I'd say that the following should be done:
Sanctuary: may not stack with other effects that provide +1 to a model's invulnerable save; more-or-less, Paladins can now get up to a 4++ from that, which isn't too shabby. I do agree that Paladins don't need Stormshields either.
IG Priests: disallow re-rolling of saves; SoB Priests should allow a re-roll of the SoB-only "Shield of Faith" save, or provide some kind of little bonus to that. Otherwise, however, no more 2++ re-rollable allowed for anyone, because its bs and stupid.
WRT to Holocaust, I'd make it a melee-focused Nova power; just enough range to hit stuff in combat, but also hit hard- I'm thinking around S6, though only AP-; it's not like Daemons have armor.
Honestly, there's nothing really wrong with Sanctuary. It's only Grey Knights who can use it with relative 'safety'. Everyone else is running a decent risk of Perils if you're aiming to cast it, as you'll likely use 3 dice to ensure you get it off. (and thus make it much harder to dispel)
Even if an Imperial player decides to build the currently atrocious Centstar, they're typically forking out for a Lv3 GK Libby w/Book + min sized GK squad of whatever flavour, AND likely an additional Libby such as Tiggy to try and ensure Invis to make it really, really dumb.
The nightmare is of course the idea of simply giving GK's the ability to take 3++ within their own book. (and on their already most survivable unit?! yeah, I'm calling bs here!)
If the Marine player then goes for the addition of an IG Priest, that's typically yet another 300'ish pts all told. For a single unit that will never, ever die, yet will not earn anywhere near it's pts back vs. MSU spam.
The Priest's own re-roll saves ability isn't a problem either... except when he's exploited in a Deathstar build.
Keep in mind too, the Centstar, as horrific to face as it is, doesn't get FnP either. The OP's "suggestion" would allow for the chance to build a re-rolled 2++ unit that also gets an additional 5+++ save should they ever fail their re-rolled 2+ invuln, unless you can spam S8+ at them!
Experiment 626 wrote: *Note: Add in the option for Grey Knights to take Land Speeders.
High tech, ancient equipment? Definitely fits the GK's image. Fun option would be to add Relic Plating as an additional upgrade! You don't really want to be giving out Psychic Pilot as the army already spams enough WC's, but for 3-5pts/model, you effectively give the Speeders the same benefit of being a Lv1 vs. any powers targeting them.
Oh, and add Relic Plating to the GK vehicle upgrades in the Armoury itself
Relic Plating is...? I don't actually recall offhand, that's why I ask.
Relic Plating is from the IG codex. (I refuse to call them Mila-whatever!) For them it's less than 5pts to give a vehicle the Adamantium Will special rule. For GK's, it would probably be fair to give it to them at +5pts for basic vehicles, and likely +10-15pts for Land Raiders. (most powers that can slag vehicles are typically meant as heavy armour killers, hence why IMHO, things like Land Raiders should pay a slightly inflated cost to gain protection from their hard counter.)
Whiskey144 wrote: Insofar as GKs with Land Speeders... I dunno. A lot of the point of GKs is that they heavily emphasize the Knights themselves, and every vehicle they currently have pretty much is there to deliver Knights to places they can be useful. Maybe giving some more GK-specific options for GK vehicles, particularly Land Raiders, and perhaps even a GK-specific Land Raider variant?
I suggested Speeders as;
a) it fits with the more aggressive & mobile style of warfare that GK's are known for.
b) it's ancient tech which is somewhat rare even amongst basic Chapters. Again, it fits their image of being the best equipped for GK's to get access to the oldest & more advanced tech within the Space Marine arsenal.
And also because, we're never going to see Jetbikes... (sadly!)
It also gives the GK's some added anti-vehicle capability without simply throwing a more mundane option like Missile launchers or Lascannons at them. Plus Speeders are still light enough to not come off as obnoxious, and honestly, I think the image of a flight of Speeders acting as swift escorts to the heavier Storm Ravens is f****** awesome!
What do you think of a "blessed MM"? It's something that's rather lacking in the GK book- dedicated anti-armor guns. It's also the sort of thing that seems like it fits with all the other short-ranged guns the GKs get, as well as the whole "gonna get purged" theme. Also emphasizes the close/mid range shooting of GKs, since that seems to be one of the strongpoints of the army on the table.
I'd also like to throw in the "make Purifiers more assault focused" is a good idea.
Aside: Purifiers does not have a "y" in it. Are you a non-native English speaker? I ask because you consistently misspell "Purifiers". Just curious, you see.
I think a 'blessed' Melta type weaponry would be more suited to the Sisters, as mass flamers/meltas is pretty much their big thing...
The real fix for GK anti-tank in general is for GW to get off their arse and re-do the freaking Razorback kit to include it's added turret options dammit! (and to re-do the basic Dreadnought kit as well to include the twin-autos + heavy flamer arms...)
The options are there to supplement the likes of 'Ceptors w/Psycannons or bunkered backfield Dreads and such, it's just far too much hassle to get the required bitz to convert everything!
Re: Purifiers:
Yes, I'm a native speaker. I was simply trying to reply while also acting as a living, breathing 'Breath of Fire' walkthrough for my dad, who's determined to power level his quest better than mine.
Whiskey144 wrote: I just want to single this out, because "army of generalists" for Marines, in practice, correlates to "army of overpriced generalists". It's moved from "feature" to "flaw", and it mostly comes down to the fact that Marines are terrible generalists. They pay for equipment that they rarely use, and then people point this out, at which point non-Marine players (oftentimes comparing to Xeno armies) will say "but you get all this stuff included, and my army doesn't get half of that at all, and the other half I have to pay for!"
Unfortunately, the reality is that substantial amounts of the equipment Marines pay for is only rarely used.
However, IMO the solution is not "remove it", but "heavily discount it". Purgation squads shouldn't pay as much for Force Weapons and grenades because they aren't going to want to be in a position to use them- but they should still keep those things and still pay for them. Similarly, bog-standard vanilla Tactical Marines should pay very little for their grenades and sidearm, because it's unlikely that they'll actually get the chance to use those things.
I think most people would agree that Marines in general are likely a point or two at most overcosted. Chaos Marines for example are only 13pts base. If Tacs were equal to that, while Chaos Marines gain something such as say 'Stubborn in close combat' to equal the likes of ATSKNF, (and Legion/Renegade Tactics vs. Chapter Tactics), then GK's could likely get away with their basic grunt being 18pts a pop.
The big advantage of Marines is that while you pay for the opportunity costs, that option is always there if/when it's needed. Occasionally that almost never fired Bolt pistol is golden when you end up facing down a horde of Orks... instead of simply sitting back and accepting that your squad will likely die once the Orks get their turn, Marines can move up, snap off a few shots, and then follow it up with a charge that will help rob the Orks of their biggest advantage.
Yes it happens only occasionally, but it's sheer brilliance when those opportunity costs do come into play.
Bill1138 wrote: Most armies have access to Divination. Divination has a power that allows you to re-roll ALL SAVES. Space Marine Terminators with a re-rollable 3++ is much more powerful than Sanctuary improving an invulnerable save to 2++ So people need to stop going on as if the Grey Knights would be getting something unprecedented and spectacular with Storm Shields when practically everyone else already has access to it.
Now what happens when you combo that Divination power and Sanctuary and Storm Shield Paladins?
Well, keep in mind that, Precog only ever effects the caster - never a whole unit. (hence why you'd need the IG Priest to build to the Super Deathstar)
Secondly, do you really want to know what happens when a Boomstick LoC with +1W & IWNDANDFnP 4+ gets to cast Precog on itself?! I won't use that rank b******* ever again honestly... solo-ing almost an entire army of CSM's by himself while hilarious, made me die a little on the inside at just how stupid that game got.
And he'd be tame compared to the GK version of re-rolled 2++ unit, which is saying something!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/24 22:06:58
Experiment 626 wrote: Actually, Paladins already start as 3 man units now. The only suggested change was the obnoxious Storm Shields, which will combo too perfectly within the army to create an even nastier Deathstar than the ones we currently have to put up with...
Huh, I even looked over the current book when going through this thread, and didn't notice that.
Derp.
Experiment 626 wrote: This would be logical, but will never happen due the fact I highly doubt GW is going to produce yet another Land Raider kit, as we already have 3 as it is! (and honestly, Chaos Marines desperately need their Land Raider looked after before Loyalists get yet another freaking variant! )
Oh I agree that Traitor Marines need some cool Heresy-era-only LR variants as well as some variants that are Traitor-specific and came into being after the Heresy.
Also, technically speaking, the current Loyalist Land Raider kit is actually "two" kits, where one is the Godhammer pattern and the other is a combination Crusader/Redeemer. Used to be, IIRC, that all three variants could be built from the same kit, but for some reason GeeDubs has changed it I guess.
Derp on their part for doing so.
Experiment 626 wrote: Honestly, there's nothing really wrong with Sanctuary. It's only Grey Knights who can use it with relative 'safety'. Everyone else is running a decent risk of Perils if you're aiming to cast it, as you'll likely use 3 dice to ensure you get it off. (and thus make it much harder to dispel)
Even if an Imperial player decides to build the currently atrocious Centstar, they're typically forking out for a Lv3 GK Libby w/Book + min sized GK squad of whatever flavour, AND likely an additional Libby such as Tiggy to try and ensure Invis to make it really, really dumb.
The nightmare is of course the idea of simply giving GK's the ability to take 3++ within their own book. (and on their already most survivable unit?! yeah, I'm calling bs here!)
I'd agree that Sanctuary isn't- on the surface- especially broken, but I don't think it should be able to stack, or push an invuln to 2++; 2++ invulnerable saves tend to be rare, expensive, and have some sort of limitation; for example the vanilla SM relic armor "Armor of Indomitus" can get a once-per-game 2++, the DE Shadowfield is a 2++ but if you fail the save then it's 'destroyed' and cannot be used for the rest of the game (though admittedly with DE T3 the guy carrying a Shadowfield is probably dead if he fails his save).
I don't especially like the idea of, for example, repeatedly casting Sanctuary on something to push it from say, a 6++/5++ to a 2++. I also do not particularly like the idea of Hammernators with a 2++; being 2+/3++ is, IMO quite nicely durable already.
Experiment 626 wrote: If the Marine player then goes for the addition of an IG Priest, that's typically yet another 300'ish pts all told. For a single unit that will never, ever die, yet will not earn anywhere near it's pts back vs. MSU spam.
The Priest's own re-roll saves ability isn't a problem either... except when he's exploited in a Deathstar build.
Keep in mind too, the Centstar, as horrific to face as it is, doesn't get FnP either. The OP's "suggestion" would allow for the chance to build a re-rolled 2++ unit that also gets an additional 5+++ save should they ever fail their re-rolled 2+ invuln, unless you can spam S8+ at them!
While that's true, there's always Unbound. Oh, I give up "Objective Secured", but have a murderlicious, unkillable, somewhat-affordable deathstar? Well, that sounds promising...
/spasming in horror
Experiment 626 wrote: Relic Plating is from the IG codex. (I refuse to call them Mila-whatever!) For them it's less than 5pts to give a vehicle the Adamantium Will special rule. For GK's, it would probably be fair to give it to them at +5pts for basic vehicles, and likely +10-15pts for Land Raiders. (most powers that can slag vehicles are typically meant as heavy armour killers, hence why IMHO, things like Land Raiders should pay a slightly inflated cost to gain protection from their hard counter.)
Ah, I'd forgotten that detail. Also, I agree- "Astra Militarum" is pants-on-head-stupid. They're the Imperial Guard, and always will be. Also, the new Stormtrooper fluff about them all being the orphaned sons of nobles is... also stupid.
But I rather dig the idea of Adamantium Will on all the GK vehicles too.
Experiment 626 wrote: I suggested Speeders as;
a) it fits with the more aggressive & mobile style of warfare that GK's are known for.
b) it's ancient tech which is somewhat rare even amongst basic Chapters. Again, it fits their image of being the best equipped for GK's to get access to the oldest & more advanced tech within the Space Marine arsenal.
And also because, we're never going to see Jetbikes... (sadly!)
It also gives the GK's some added anti-vehicle capability without simply throwing a more mundane option like Missile launchers or Lascannons at them. Plus Speeders are still light enough to not come off as obnoxious, and honestly, I think the image of a flight of Speeders acting as swift escorts to the heavier Storm Ravens is f****** awesome!
I dunno though- most Chapters seem to keep a healthy pool of Speeders. Generally speaking, I think that the Salamanders are the only one that generally eschews Speeders, and it's more to do with local conditions on Nocturne making Speeder deployment... unsuitable.
Also, Speeders can't really escort Stormravens, on account of Speeder flight ceiling being limited to about 50 meters, IIRC.
With regards to Jetbikes for Grey Knights.... I WANT THAT SO HARD NOW. GKs are supposed to get all the best gubbins and bits right? I mean, they've even got their own Forgeworld! If the Mechanicus is going to build Jetbikes for anybody... it'd be the Grey Knights.
Incidentally, "why no Jetbikes" came up in a thread in the Background forum, and I think the consensus is that while the plans might be entirely lost, it's equally possible that the plans are considered "tainted" in some fashion (and have been untainted by the GKs, perhaps?) or are incomplete or are simply considered unnecessary for regular Marines.
Also, GKs on Jetbikes totally fits with their theme of "really extra elite", as well as playing into the knightly motif.
What do you think of a "blessed MM"? It's something that's rather lacking in the GK book- dedicated anti-armor guns. It's also the sort of thing that seems like it fits with all the other short-ranged guns the GKs get, as well as the whole "gonna get purged" theme. Also emphasizes the close/mid range shooting of GKs, since that seems to be one of the strongpoints of the army on the table.
I think a 'blessed' Melta type weaponry would be more suited to the Sisters, as mass flamers/meltas is pretty much their big thing...
The real fix for GK anti-tank in general is for GW to get off their arse and re-do the freaking Razorback kit to include it's added turret options dammit! (and to re-do the basic Dreadnought kit as well to include the twin-autos + heavy flamer arms...)
The options are there to supplement the likes of 'Ceptors w/Psycannons or bunkered backfield Dreads and such, it's just far too much hassle to get the required bitz to convert everything!
Mass flamer/melta is the Sisters thing, true, but it does somewhat fit with the Grey Knights as well. Also, definitely agree that the Razorback/Dread kits need to be updated to include all the weapon options- or at least enough that it's not unreasonable to convert the needed-but-unincluded parts.
Still, I do think some sort of melta-weapon would be appropriate, and also allow a cleaner removal of Rending Psycannons (because the latter is stupid). It's also worth noting that GKs don't really do mass flamer/melta, but more of a "blessed/holy" flamer shtick. Why not extend it to a "more-holy" melta weapon?
Experiment 626 wrote: Well, keep in mind that, Precog only ever effects the caster - never a whole unit. (hence why you'd need the IG Priest to build to the Super Deathstar)
Secondly, do you really want to know what happens when a Boomstick LoC with +1W & IWNDANDFnP 4+ gets to cast Precog on itself?! I won't use that rank b******* ever again honestly... solo-ing almost an entire army of CSM's by himself while hilarious, made me die a little on the inside at just how stupid that game got.
And he'd be tame compared to the GK version of re-rolled 2++ unit, which is saying something!
/shrugs
I guess the only difference is that now you can bulk up the unit to around seven dudes in TDA, plus an IG Priest, and toss in a Techmarine with a Servo-Harness, and pack them into a Land Raider Crusader partybus, before proceeding to drive towards the enemy and roll face.
Expensive, sure. Not much of a difference from most deathstars, truthfully.
I just want to single this out, because "army of generalists" for Marines, in practice, correlates to "army of overpriced generalists". It's moved from "feature" to "flaw", and it mostly comes down to the fact that Marines are terrible generalists. They pay for equipment that they rarely use, and then people point this out, at which point non-Marine players (oftentimes comparing to Xeno armies) will say "but you get all this stuff included, and my army doesn't get half of that at all, and the other half I have to pay for!"
Unfortunately, the reality is that substantial amounts of the equipment Marines pay for is only rarely used.
However, IMO the solution is not "remove it", but "heavily discount it". Purgation squads shouldn't pay as much for Force Weapons and grenades because they aren't going to want to be in a position to use them- but they should still keep those things and still pay for them. Similarly, bog-standard vanilla Tactical Marines should pay very little for their grenades and sidearm, because it's unlikely that they'll actually get the chance to use those things.
Though I agree with your sentiment Whiskey, there is a potential general problem with just discounting wargear on a unit that isn't going to make much use of it. That problem comes from the fact that you could potentially create a unit that is not supposed to be good at CC. but is point for point cheaper than an identical unit that is supposed to be better at CC. In the GK case, Puragation Squads and Strike Squads are basically the same (a couple rules different), are equiped the same, and cost the same. If the Purgation Squad paid less for their Force weapons and such, then they actually are better for their points then the Strike Squad at something that they are supposed to be worse at.
The better option, IMO, is to discount upgrades based on what is being removed from the model for the upgrade and to price upgrades on units to encourage them being used for their particular role. A Puragator that has an upgraded weapon shouldn't have the cost of a Force weapon in his profile after he has removed it. If the special weapon upgrades were cheaper for the Puragation squad than the rest of the units, then people would be inclined to use them as a special weapon unit, instead of just taking Purifiers to fill a role they shouldn't have.
Primaris Power
Banishment............................Warp Charge 2
The Psyker bends his will to dissolving the bonds that tether the daemonic to the mortal plane, casting them back into the Warp.
"Banishment is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, attacks made by the Psyker and his unit ignore Daemons invulnerable saves.
This new form of Banishment would be harder to cast, but would have more substantial effects for the firing unit, yet is balanced out by not reducing the Daemon's Invulnerable Save for any other units shooting at it. At 2 Warp Charges, the opportunity costs of using Banishment would make the Grey Knights choose between using it and their other powers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Thoughts on replacing the 4th power in Sanctic (Purge Soul) with something like:
4. (Insert name here)…………………..Warp Charge 1
(Insert italicized fluff explanation of the power)
(power name) is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, the Psyker and his unit gain the Shred special rule on their shooting attacks.
Any tweaks to the wording to make it smoother? What should the power be named? What would be the italicized fluff explanation?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/03/26 05:26:52
Primaris Power
Banishment............................Warp Charge 2
The Psyker bends his will to dissolving the bonds that tether the daemonic to the mortal plane, casting them back into the Warp.
"Banishment is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, attacks made by the Psyker his unit ignore Daemons invulnerable saves.
This new form of Banishment would be harder to cast, but would have more substantial effects for the firing unit, yet is balanced out by not reducing the Daemon's Invulnerable Save for any other units shooting at it. At 2 Warp Charges, the opportunity costs of using Banishment would make the Grey Knights choose between using it and their other powers.
I'm really disliking it- most Daemons units have poor invulns and a power which is supposed to strip all Daemon invulns seems really... broken and biased, TBH. If this is based on the whole "old-school Psycannon ignores your invuln" shtick, then I'm rather disappointed- pretty much the reason I want that to come back so much is twofold:
1) No more Rending Psycannons, because that is stupid.
2) 2++ re-rollable deathstar shenanigans become impossibru, on account of the invuln being ignored entirely.
The current version of Banishment is much more balanced and more useful- mostly because it affects both shooting and combat.
Bill1138 wrote: Thoughts on replacing the 4th power in Sanctic (Purge Soul) with something like:
4. (Insert name here)…………………..Warp Charge 1
(Insert italicized fluff explanation of the power)
(power name) is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, the Psyker and his unit gain the Shred special rule on their shooting attacks.
Any tweaks to the wording to make it smoother? What should the power be named? What would be the italicized fluff explanation?
In all honesty I dislike the idea of a psychic power that directly buffs the effectiveness of a weapon. Yes, I do think that Purgation squads should get some kind of semi-unique power that makes them Relentless, but that's more to do with the general lack of mobility that GK heavies confer (paradoxically). In any case, I don't think that the Sanctic tree actually needs much work, and other than preventing Sanctuary from stacking with itself (to prevent 2++ re-rollable shenanigans of stupid), it would seem that Sanctic is set up quite well.
Freezerassasin wrote: Though I agree with your sentiment Whiskey, there is a potential general problem with just discounting wargear on a unit that isn't going to make much use of it. That problem comes from the fact that you could potentially create a unit that is not supposed to be good at CC. but is point for point cheaper than an identical unit that is supposed to be better at CC. In the GK case, Puragation Squads and Strike Squads are basically the same (a couple rules different), are equiped the same, and cost the same. If the Purgation Squad paid less for their Force weapons and such, then they actually are better for their points then the Strike Squad at something that they are supposed to be worse at.
The better option, IMO, is to discount upgrades based on what is being removed from the model for the upgrade and to price upgrades on units to encourage them being used for their particular role. A Puragator that has an upgraded weapon shouldn't have the cost of a Force weapon in his profile after he has removed it. If the special weapon upgrades were cheaper for the Puragation squad than the rest of the units, then people would be inclined to use them as a special weapon unit, instead of just taking Purifiers to fill a role they shouldn't have.
You bring up a good point, and a similarly good alternative- Purgation squads getting discounted heavies would be good. I'd also like to take this opportunity to make a more thorough commentary about GK specials, in particular the Psycannon and Psilencer.
Let's begin.
Psilencers are only good when you activate Force, and only against T4, multi-wound models, with a 3+ or poorer save. Against T3 multi-wound models, the Psycannon is better- at S7 it doubles them out natively, and provides Rending, and an actual AP value. Here's a few worked examples, assuming two Psilencers/Psycannons (IE, a min-maxed Purifier/Purgation squad or a max-size Strike/Interceptor/GKT squad). I'm also assuming the squad is either sitting still for maximum effect or is Relentless (IE, it's a GKT squad)
Psilencer, T3 Infantry
12 shots @ BS4, for 8 hits, 5.28 wounds before saves. Assuming:
6+ Armor, we get ~4.4 unsaved wounds
5+ Armor, we get ~3.5 unsaved wounds
4+ Armor, we get ~2.6 unsaved wounds
3+ Armor, we get ~1.7 unsaved wounds
Psycannon, T3 Infantry
8 shots @ BS4, for 5.28 hits, 4.4 wounds before saves. Assuming:
6+ Armor, we get 4.4 unsaved wounds due to AP4
5+ Armor, we get 4.4 unsaved wounds due to AP4
4+ Armor, we get 4.4 unsaved wounds due to AP4
3+ Armor, we get ~2.3 unsaved wounds; Rending adds ~0.88 wounds, assuming I've done my math right
Psilencer, T4 Infantry
12 shots @ BS4, for 8 hits, 4 wounds before saves. Assuming:
6+ Armor, we get ~3.3 unsaved wounds
5+ Armor, we get ~2.6 unsaved wounds
4+ Armor, we get 2 unsaved wounds
3+ Armor, we get ~1.3 unsaved wounds
Psycannon, T4 Infantry
8 shots @ BS4, for 5.28 hits, 4.4 wounds before saves
6+ Armor, we get 4.4 unsaved wounds due to AP4
5+ Armor, we get 4.4 unsaved wounds due to AP4
4+ Armor, we get 4.4 unsaved wounds due to AP4
3+ Armor, we get ~2.3 unsaved wounds, due to Rending
Psilencer, T5 Infantry
12 shots @ BS4, for 8 hits, ~2.6 wounds before saves
6+ Armor, we get ~2.2 unsaved wounds
5+ Armor, we get ~1.7 unsaved wounds
4+ Armor, we get ~1.3 unsaved wounds
3+ Armor, we get ~0.9 unsaved wounds
Psycannon, T5 Infantry
Honestly, I'm not even going to bother doing the numbers for this entry- it'll be the exact same as the Psycannon performs against T3 and T4 infantry models.
In any case, we see something very interesting: the only place where Psilencers would actually excel is against T4, average-to-poor save, multi-wound models, on account of being able to leverage Force. Against T3, Psycannons are equal-or-better and offer Rending to punch through 3+ armor when required, plus, being S7, they double out T3 natively- multi-wound T3 is no better off (it's actually worse, in fact) against a Psycannon than a Psilencer.
Anything with 4+ armor is generally getting smashed harder by Psycannons than it is by Psilencers- against T4/2W type models it's variable, on account of Force allowing the Psilencer to "punch up" quite a bit... the problem becomes that the only time Psycannons aren't as good at killing infantry-type models as a Psilencer, is if it's T4 multi-wound infantry; said models sit in the "sweet spot" where they have enough Toughness to not be doubled out by Psycannons, but enough wounds to make Force a huge deal.
Against T3 or T5 infantry of any kind- or T4 single-wound infantry- the Psycannon is flat-out superior. On top of that, the Psycannon is S7 and Rending, making it capable of cracking open light armor, engaging MCs, and in a pinch being pointed at heavy AV13/14 threats.
Psilencers, OTOH, are only good at killing T4 multi-wound models with average saves. Granted, most such models have 4+/5+ armor or invulnerable saves, but generally speaking there's not really much incentive to take Psilencers against such threats anyways- Psycannons can still kill them reasonably well, while also being far better at killing literally anything else.
This is, incidentally, why I think S5 for Psilencers is the simplest fix as far as "what are Psilencers good at killing, versus what are Psycannons good at killing". Other options consist of either allowing Psilencers to gain Rending only when activated as Force weapons (IE, you must trigger Force in order to gain Rending), as this gives Psilencers a bit of a leg up when shooting at any kind of multi-wound model, or perhaps giving them Haywire under similar conditions (IE, activate Force, get Haywire as a bonus) to make Psilencers a bit more versatile.
I'm not really sold on the latter, TBH- with 6 shots you're going to crack open almost anything due to hulling it out, which is quite frankly an undesirable result- at least, IMO.
It also highlights the fact that the Psycannon is basically the ultimate "TAC" heavy for GKs- there's literally nothing it can't shoot at with at least passable results. Considering that, I'd like to propose the following changes:
Psilencer 36" Salvo 4/6 S5 AP- Force
OR
36" Salvo 4/6 S4 AP- Force, Force Rending
Force Rending: When activated as a Force weapon, this weapon also gains the Rending trait. If the activation fails (or is not attempted), the Rending trait is not used.
Psycannon 36" Salvo 2/3 S6 AP4 Psybolt
Psybolt: Saves conferred by Psychic Powers are ignored; additionally, if a save is improved by a Psychic Power, wounds inflicted by the Psycannon ignore the modifier, using a model's base save instead. Further, failed saves may not be re-rolled by wounds caused by the Psycannon.
In short, Psycannons become the preferred solution for giving "get rekt" notices to 2++ re-rollable deathstar shenanigans. Oh, you get a 2++ re-rollable because psychic BS? Sorry, Psycannons require you to stick to that base save instead.
If you couldn't tell, yes, I have a flaming vehement hatred for 2++ re-rollable save bs.
Incinerator Unchanged; I find that this weapon is pretty much set the way it is.
Psi-Melta 18" Assault 1 S8 AP1 Melta, Force
A Grey Knights melta weapon, for cracking heavy armor. Since under my proposal the Psycannon loses Rending, it then becomes blatantly clear that the GKs need some kind of anti-vehicle/-MC/-TEQ weapon. Psi-Meltas would be fluffed as meltaguns combined with Psilencer-style bits to boost melta range (hence 18" range), that also had the side effect of infusing the melta blast with psychic power (hence Force).
S8/AP1 and Force- but only one shot- means that it's very likely that you could gib a Riptide or Wraithknight with one of these. Being S8/AP1 and Melta, you've also got fair potential to crack open heavy armor. Even just S8/AP1 and 18" range means that it's a substantial threat to somewhat heavy (AV12 or so) armored vehicles.
Thoughts on my changes to Psilencers and Psycannons, as well as the introduction of the Psi-Melta?
Primaris Power
Banishment............................Warp Charge 2
The Psyker bends his will to dissolving the bonds that tether the daemonic to the mortal plane, casting them back into the Warp.
"Banishment is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, attacks made by the Psyker his unit ignore Daemons invulnerable saves.
This new form of Banishment would be harder to cast, but would have more substantial effects for the firing unit, yet is balanced out by not reducing the Daemon's Invulnerable Save for any other units shooting at it. At 2 Warp Charges, the opportunity costs of using Banishment would make the Grey Knights choose between using it and their other powers.
I'm really disliking it- most Daemons units have poor invulns and a power which is supposed to strip all Daemon invulns seems really... broken and biased, TBH. If this is based on the whole "old-school Psycannon ignores your invuln" shtick, then I'm rather disappointed- pretty much the reason I want that to come back so much is twofold:
1) No more Rending Psycannons, because that is stupid.
2) 2++ re-rollable deathstar shenanigans become impossibru, on account of the invuln being ignored entirely.
The current version of Banishment is much more balanced and more useful- mostly because it affects both shooting and combat.
It's a Warp Charge 2 power that effects one unit, and only for the unit that cast the power. Did you even read the suggestion?
Chaos Daemons have AV13 units, and the Psycannon is the only special weapon the Grey Knights have to counter that. The Psycannon really needs Rending to stay, and you just calling it stupid isn't helpful or constructive.
Please actually read what I suggested before complaining about it. It only removes Daemons' Invulnerable Saves, and only for one unit for each casting AS A WARP CHARGE 2 Power. And it applies to both shooting and close combat, so that part of your complaint just doesn't reflect what I said.
Bill1138 wrote: Thoughts on replacing the 4th power in Sanctic (Purge Soul) with something like:
4. (Insert name here)…………………..Warp Charge 1
(Insert italicized fluff explanation of the power)
(power name) is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, the Psyker and his unit gain the Shred special rule on their shooting attacks.
Any tweaks to the wording to make it smoother? What should the power be named? What would be the italicized fluff explanation?
In all honesty I dislike the idea of a psychic power that directly buffs the effectiveness of a weapon. Yes, I do think that Purgation squads should get some kind of semi-unique power that makes them Relentless, but that's more to do with the general lack of mobility that GK heavies confer (paradoxically). In any case, I don't think that the Sanctic tree actually needs much work, and other than preventing Sanctuary from stacking with itself (to prevent 2++ re-rollable shenanigans of stupid), it would seem that Sanctic is set up quite well.
GW is moving away from unique powers on units. They want everything to be on a tree. I simply picked what I saw as the least useful power in Sanctic and replaced it with one that would be a helpful buff for shooting.
And have you encountered anyone who's actually stacked Sanctuary in a Grey Knight list for 2++? The sheer cost of the unit would be completely impractical and wouldn't leave enough points to have enough other units to claim objectives. The opponent would simply kill everything else and then stay away from the super unit. Game over, tfg with the super unit loses.
Primaris Power
Banishment............................Warp Charge 2
The Psyker bends his will to dissolving the bonds that tether the daemonic to the mortal plane, casting them back into the Warp.
"Banishment is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, attacks made by the Psyker his unit ignore Daemons invulnerable saves.
This new form of Banishment would be harder to cast, but would have more substantial effects for the firing unit, yet is balanced out by not reducing the Daemon's Invulnerable Save for any other units shooting at it. At 2 Warp Charges, the opportunity costs of using Banishment would make the Grey Knights choose between using it and their other powers.
I'm really disliking it- most Daemons units have poor invulns and a power which is supposed to strip all Daemon invulns seems really... broken and biased, TBH. If this is based on the whole "old-school Psycannon ignores your invuln" shtick, then I'm rather disappointed- pretty much the reason I want that to come back so much is twofold:
1) No more Rending Psycannons, because that is stupid.
2) 2++ re-rollable deathstar shenanigans become impossibru, on account of the invuln being ignored entirely.
The current version of Banishment is much more balanced and more useful- mostly because it affects both shooting and combat.
It's a Warp Charge 2 power that effects one unit, and only for the unit that cast the power. Did you even read the suggestion?
Chaos Daemons have AV13 units, and the Psycannon is the only special weapon the Grey Knights have to counter that. The Psycannon really needs Rending to stay, and you just calling it stupid isn't helpful or constructive.
Please actually read what I suggested before complaining about it. It only removes Daemons' Invulnerable Saves, and only for one unit for each casting AS A WARP CHARGE 2 Power. And it applies to both shooting and close combat, so that part of your complaint just doesn't reflect what I said.
- You know how Marine players are constantly & vehemently complaining all the time about how there's far too much ap2/3 in the game and it makes their 3+ saves all but useless? This is doing the exact same thing to every single Daemon player.
You can readily cast this on 3 dice - 4 is only needed to play the odds and ensure a more likely chance of success. Considering how easy it is to spam WC's in a Grey Knight army, with this kind of bs, you'd easily be able to get this off 3-4 times per phase in average sized games. That's effectively allowing the GK player to auto-delete at least 2 targets automatically.
Banishment is perfectly fine as is. Right now you get to cut a Daemon's basic save in half for a cheap casting cost, and it's also a Malediction power, meaning that unlike a Blessing, it's stackable as well.
- Yes, Rending was a dumb thing to give the Psycannon in the last codex. "Mind bullets" somehow ripping apart vehicles is nonsense. If it was to gain Rending at all, then it should only ever be applied against models with the 'Daemon' USR and 'Psyker' or 'Brotherhood of Psyker/Sorcerers' rules.
Bill1138 wrote: GW is moving away from unique powers on units. They want everything to be on a tree. I simply picked what I saw as the least useful power in Sanctic and replaced it with one that would be a helpful buff for shooting.
And have you encountered anyone who's actually stacked Sanctuary in a Grey Knight list for 2++? The sheer cost of the unit would be completely impractical and wouldn't leave enough points to have enough other units to claim objectives. The opponent would simply kill everything else and then stay away from the super unit. Game over, tfg with the super unit loses.
If you want to remove Purge Soul and replace it with anything, then it should be The Holocaust...
And absolutely yes, I've encountered MANY Imperial armies running 2++ Deathstars thanks to Grey Knight shenanigans! Centstar being the most outright broken offender, with re-rolling GK or Hammernator Deathstars being only ever so slightly worse. (as MSU spam can at least feed them min sized units all day long...)
The cost, especially in a Centstar isn't an issue at all considering that unit is both;
a) pretty much impossible to ever kill.
b) is able to point and delete almost anything you can throw at it, except perhaps a Greentide or 40-50man IG blob should you fail to land Cleansing Flame.
@Whiskey144: Personally I don't like the idea of a 'super meltagun' for GK's as it just seems to step too much on the toes of the Sisters identity...
Instead, what about something like;
- Psy-Lance - S8/ap2/Lance/*Psychic bane Heavy 1
*a weapon with this rule may re-roll failed to-wound rolls and armour penetration rolls against models with 'Daemon' and/or 'Psyker or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers' rule.
This gives the Knights a generic anti-tank weapon - perhaps keep it to a 24" range, or else take the 18"/Assault 1?
It of course gets slightly better vs. the GK's traditional foes, yet is not on the same levels of outright crap like the previous codex's issues with unfairly picking on Daemons & Psykers in general.
And this way, the door is open for the Sisters to get the super blessed melta weaponry.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: "Mind bullets" is nonsense but Daemons taking physical form from the emotions of mortals is just fine?
The issue with the "mind bullets" is just giving them a flat out +1S vs. everything... Psybolts are no more effective vs. non-psykers & daemons than regular bolt shells. They are supposed to be a counter to a very specific target, hence give them something that does just that!
+1S vs. Daemons/Psykers, or Shred vs. those targets, or re-roll 1's to-wound, etc... but they should never have any form of bonus vs. any kind of mundane, non-psychic or non-daemonic target.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: "Mind bullets" is nonsense but Daemons taking physical form from the emotions of mortals is just fine?
The issue with the "mind bullets" is just giving them a flat out +1S vs. everything... Psybolts are no more effective vs. non-psykers & daemons than regular bolt shells. They are supposed to be a counter to a very specific target, hence give them something that does just that!
+1S vs. Daemons/Psykers, or Shred vs. those targets, or re-roll 1's to-wound, etc... but they should never have any form of bonus vs. any kind of mundane, non-psychic or non-daemonic target.
Well, the 5th edition Codex fluff disagrees with you. If Chaos can fire Daemon Bolter shells in Apocalypse that are S: D because it's possessed by a Daemon then why would a psyker be unable to magnify the damage caused by their bolts? I mean, Thousand Sons have been doing it with their Inferno Bolts since forever, and that's never been an issue.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
The "mind bullets are stupid" argument is really tedious. Think of it as a "Caster bullet". The Psyker is casting a psychic power through the Bullet to the victim. It is not in the slightest any more ridiculous than ANYTHING else in 40k.
Bill1138 wrote: The "mind bullets are stupid" argument is really tedious. Think of it as a "Caster bullet". The Psyker is casting a psychic power through the Bullet to the victim. It is not in the slightest any more ridiculous than ANYTHING else in 40k.
Except that is not what Psybolts are... they're bolt shells that are imparted with a tiny measure of the Emperor's psychic might - think of them as the 'ultra-violet' bullets from Underworld. Vs. a normal human, that round is no deadlier than a basic bullet. To a Vampire however, it's instant freaking death!
In the last codex however, these super rare bullets that are designed specifically to be anathema to warp creatures & psykers were 100% as effective vs. everything else in the game.
Psycannons are even dumber in their current incarnation, as despite supposedly being a weapon designed to murder daemons & psykers, it's at it's most effective when chewing up mundane battle tanks?!
It's stupid because these weapons have rules that fly in the face of their background.
Bill1138 wrote: The "mind bullets are stupid" argument is really tedious. Think of it as a "Caster bullet". The Psyker is casting a psychic power through the Bullet to the victim. It is not in the slightest any more ridiculous than ANYTHING else in 40k.
Except that is not what Psybolts are... they're bolt shells that are imparted with a tiny measure of the Emperor's psychic might - think of them as the 'ultra-violet' bullets from Underworld. Vs. a normal human, that round is no deadlier than a basic bullet. To a Vampire however, it's instant freaking death!
In the last codex however, these super rare bullets that are designed specifically to be anathema to warp creatures & psykers were 100% as effective vs. everything else in the game.
Psycannons are even dumber in their current incarnation, as despite supposedly being a weapon designed to murder daemons & psykers, it's at it's most effective when chewing up mundane battle tanks?!
It's stupid because these weapons have rules that fly in the face of their background.
Codex: Grey Knights 5th edition, page 62, "Psybolt Ammunition wrote:Psybolts are silver-tipped, psychically charged shells, used in storm bolters and similar weapons. When fired, each bolt becomes imbued with a portion of the Grey Knight's innate psycic power, causing it to glow with an eerie blue light, and strike home with significantly greater force than an ordinary round of its type. Psybolts are difficult to produce and incredibly wearing on a gun's inner mechanisms, but provide the Grey Knights with a relatively straightforward method of enhancing the power of standard-pattern weaponry, without resorting to extensive retrofitting of the weapon itself.
It's designed to kill Daemons and Psykers by blowing them up better than normal ammunition. You're simply wrong.
I like most the suggestions except for the paladins and losing force swords for other abilities.
It is a signature of the GK that each model have a force weapon. It is essential to being a GK and it should not be removed. Perhaps giving strike squads +1 attack or furious charge would make the worth taking. Or just bring back psybolt.
Paladins don't need expensive storm shield upgrades to be useful - What they need is stock Eternal warrior and come stock with sanctuary at their current price - then they are a strong unit that might get used over GKT.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Codex: Grey Knights 5th edition, page 62, "Psybolt Ammunition wrote:Psybolts are silver-tipped, psychically charged shells, used in storm bolters and similar weapons. When fired, each bolt becomes imbued with a portion of the Grey Knight's innate psycic power, causing it to glow with an eerie blue light, and strike home with significantly greater force than an ordinary round of its type. Psybolts are difficult to produce and incredibly wearing on a gun's inner mechanisms, but provide the Grey Knights with a relatively straightforward method of enhancing the power of standard-pattern weaponry, without resorting to extensive retrofitting of the weapon itself.
It's designed to kill Daemons and Psykers by blowing them up better than normal ammunition. You're simply wrong.
And their previous rules were ap4/no invulns allowed. Hitting harder doesn't automatically mean +1S. Better penetration and additional counter vs. daemons & psykers is what they are.
Across the board S5 which effected every other army equally as much as it did Daemons & Psykers is what made them dumb. Hence why just a flat out +1S made no sense then, and still makes no sense now.
No invulns now that Daemons are their own army would be broken as flying rodent gak. They should be at most slightly better than a standard bolt shell, but they should also be much more effective vs. specifically daemons & psykers than they are against the likes of basic Guardsmen, Orks and every other non-daemonic or psychic target!
Xenomancers wrote: I like most the suggestions except for the paladins and losing force swords for other abilities.
It is a signature of the GK that each model have a force weapon. It is essential to being a GK and it should not be removed. Perhaps giving strike squads +1 attack or furious charge would make the worth taking. Or just bring back psybolt.
Paladins don't need expensive storm shield upgrades to be useful - What they need is stock Eternal warrior and come stock with sanctuary at their current price - then they are a strong unit that might get used over GKT.
2+/4++/5+++ Eternal Warriors? Okay, maybe if they're about 75pts each at a minimum!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/26 14:51:56
I think part of the dichotomy between Strike Squads and Terminators is that they do the exact same thing, which means that one is inevitably going to be better than the other. If we gave Terminators better melee capability and short-range shooting (obviously while nerfing/changing longer-range shooting) and gave Strike Squad better ranged capabilities then we could achieve a state where neither of the two Troops choices is overshadowed by the other.
And their previous rules were ap4/no invulns allowed. Hitting harder doesn't automatically mean +1S. Better penetration and additional counter vs. daemons & psykers is what they are.
Across the board S5 which effected every other army equally as much as it did Daemons & Psykers is what made them dumb. Hence why just a flat out +1S made no sense then, and still makes no sense now.
WHY is it dumb though? I mean, the German army used the flak 88 as an anti-tank cannon despite the fact that it was designed as an anti-aircraft cannon because it was damn good at it. Why could the Grey Knights not have anti-Daemon weaponry that just happens to blow the living gak out of everyone else as well?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/26 14:51:49
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
)
I won't use that rank b******* ever again honestly... solo-ing almost an entire army of 
crap like the previous codex's issues with unfairly picking on Daemons & Psykers in general.
