Forge World Chapter Tactics - Overpowered?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Roger Dorn**

Yesterday I played against an opponent whose Space Marine chapter I had never heard of. He was playing Red Scorpions, which apparently is a free download from Forge World.

I had no issues at the time with this.

However, when he revealed that the chapter tactics made all tac marine sargeants apothecaries, thus giving all of his tactical squads the "Feel No Pain" rule, I was hesitant to start the game.

I should have followed my gut on this one.

Feel no pain on basically EVERY unit he put on the table was ridiculous. His tac squads were borderline impossible to kill! I unloaded ungodly amounts of plasma cannon fire into one of the tac squads and he took ZERO casualties.

I managed to eke out a tie at the last minute (by securing the relic with my scout squad on the last turn), but I'm starting to wonder if I will (willingly) play against that chapter again. It felt unbalanced.

What do you guys think? Also, what other Forge World chapter tactics are there, and are they unbalanced?

Cheers,
-Roger Dorn

**Wilson**

Theres much worser things out there bud. Besides, theres always a counter to something which unfortunately goes both ways - if you had mass S8/AP3 instead of plasma cannons you would have destroyed him.

**Frozocrone**

S8 Ap3 instagibs them all

Well the ones round my meta include Raptors, which have Scout and Stealth(first turn) and also Legendary Marksmen, which trade Bolter's Rapid Fire as Heavy 1 Rending.

Their Chapter Master is also really annoying to face. D6+3 Wounds on any model or D3 Glancing hits before the game even begins - oh and your reserves come on a 4+

**Zsolt**

Tac squads are supposed to be meh units. So if he's fielding tac squads instead of proper units, you are already at an advantage. 5+ FNP is not that big thing. Just put more wounds on them.

**Darkseid**

The Red Scorpion CT are one of the better among the FW chapters, still they are worse than the IH ones, which are quite similar but with more benefits for a wider range of units.

**SharkoutofWata**

Be glad he played it that way. I just posted a question about Red Scorpions and if their Nathecium upgrade was just for Tacticals or for all Veteran Sergeants in the codex. Bit of an unclear wording but popular choice was just Tac Squad leaders. I'd completely understand if someone played it as any 'Veteran Sergeant' could take the FNP upgrade.

Still, most of the Chapter Tactics aren't too bad. I'm going to be using Astral Claws which is Skilled Rider on Bikes and Scout on Land Speeders. Good, but not overpowered like Iron Hands can be. As a general rule they all seem to be very situational and none of them strike me as particularly competitive. I think the Raptors stand out as the best of the bunch from a gameplay perspective. It's the special characters y have to look out for. Severin Loth of the Scorpions is a powerful model for being able to cherry pick his powers.

**Roger Dorn**

SharkoutofWata wrote:
It's the special characters y have to look out for. Severin Loth of the Scorpions is a powerful model for being able to cherry pick his powers.

That was the other problem. He took Severin Loth, who then chose Biomancy with Enfeeble, Life Leech, and Endurance. Combine that with the ability to spend one warp charge to get a 2+ invul save and he just wouldn't die. I took a wound off of him twice (when he wasn't locked in combat) but other than that he was bulletproof. He used life leech to restore wounds so even though he only has two wounds, it didn't matter.

Truth be told, a lot of this post is me being bitter about the way the game panned out. He did something really clever. I'd expended 200+ points on centurion devastators with grav cannons/amps and he took them out turn one before they could even fire. He dropped Loth and a tac squad with a melta and a combi melta right beside them. Used Enfeeble on them, thus lowering their toughness, and then hit me with massed melta shots. Lowering the toughness by one made those shots instakills.

Clever, but it was definitely a what the BLEEP moment.

**Vineheart01**

Forgeworld really needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Most of it is intended for Apoc games yet theres a lot that dont specifically say apoc only even if its obviously in mind.

Some of the units or special rules arent that bad, in fact Orks basically live for FW and since they nerfed the Lifta Droppa nothing for the Orks is stupid op anymore (afaik).

Have to admit though, basically army-wide FNP is a little....op...hell i felt like i was cheesing when i brought a SINGLE unit from FW (the new tau riptide variant Y'vahra), which had no impact on the rest of my army lol

**Darkseid**

Vineheart01 wrote:
Forgeworld really needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Most of it is intended for Apoc games yet theres a lot that dont specifically say apoc only even if its obviously in mind.

No, not really.

Vineheart01 wrote:
Have to admit though, basically army-wide FNP is a little....op...hell i felt like i was cheesing when i brought a SINGLE unit from FW (the new tau riptide variant Y'vahra), which had no impact on the rest of my army lol

If you only field tac squads then sure it's armywide. I doubt that anyone would consider that OP though. Unless you mean Iron Hands, who get it army wide and IWND on vehicles and characters too. Now that is quite something ... but wait, they are a codex chapter!

So you fielded what is the most op FW unit by a long shot (at least with the experimental rules) and felt like cheating? Rightly so. Too bad this anecdote clouds your judgement on the other dozens of FW units which are quite well balanced in most cases.

**HawaiiMatt**

Forge World used to do what Allies now does. It fills gaps in the army.
Most anything you're taking forge world to do you can achieve with just the right pairing of CAD and Allies.

I'd most likely only say no to forge world if you also wanted to play without allies.

**Poly Ranger**

Red scorpion CT are good but not as good as some codex CT (as above posts mentioned).
Also if you are struggling with fnp tacs, then you'll be woefully underprepared for Sanguinary Guard with FnP, CSM of the nurgle or slannesh type or basic necron warriors. Let alone more durable and damaging units like nurgle oblitorators, necron and eldar wraith types, necron destroyers and MCs of most types.

**Tannhauser42**

Red Scorpions CT are OP? Really? All it gives them (apart from a few minor relic weapons in IA4) is apothecaries in tactical squads. Tactical squads. Kill the sergeant and it's gone. The reroll pinning tests ability is largely useless in 7th where barrages and snipers no longer have pinning. Culln is a decent beatstick character, but nothing compared to Smashbane or Smashfether. Loth is a good psyker, but not better than Tigurius. There are certainly OP things in 40K, but Red Scorpions (and FW in general) aren't among them.

**ryuken87**

I don't think the FW CT are particularly overpowered. Some just use the codex CT and some aren't particularly good at all. At the end of the day he could have dropped down in a pod with some Plasma-gun vets (or indeed some Centurions of his own with an allied pod) and smashed your Centurions just as easily.

Red Scorpion CTs are good, but remember it's only Tac squads and it's only granted by the sergeant, so if you can kill him they lose FNP. Compare that to Iron Hands who have a 6+ FNP across the board as well as IWND on vehicles and characters and it's hard to call Red Scorpion CT overpowered.

Some Forgeworld units are overpowered, most aren't, just as with the "core" game. The more powerful units get purchased and used with greater frequency, thus giving the impression that Forgeworld is overpowered. The problem you had was that it took you by surprise which made it seem unfair. This is a common issue with Forgeworld as the rules are all over the place, and most people are unfamiliar with them.

**Orock**

Darkseid wrote:
Vineheart01 wrote:
Too bad this anecdote clouds your judgement on the other dozens of FW units which are quite well balanced in most cases.

It really dosen't. See while people who are huge fans of forgeworld are quick to point out that there exist crappy fluffy units, just like in regular codex, what they are not quick to point out is you will never see these crappy fluffy units on the table. No, forgeworld is taken to fill power gaps in armies. And while people will spend money on forgeworld for superior looking models to replace the base ones, such as death korps of krieg, nobody is buying the crappier versions of what their codex already has. So you will never see the balanced side of forgeworld anyway, and get the actual picture of what it is used for: as just another way to supercharge your lists, oftentimes defended by people in denial that their cheeze is somehow less offensive that dirty filthy GW cheeze like flyrants and wave serpents, or just plain hypocrites.

You can just say no if you don't want to play someone with what you consider a cheezy army. If you go to tournaments and have no restrictions however, you can't blame anyone but yourself.

P.S. forgeworld users aren't some horrible race of sub humans, they can be nice or bad people like anyone else. They are just open to more things available in the game.

**CrownAxe**

Red Scorpions CT is not broken. They can only get it on their tactical squad (which is a mediocre unit at best) and the FNP only applies to the unit while the Sergeant turned Apothecary is with them so if you kill him early or if he was combat squading then FNP doesn't apply.

Severin Loth on the other hand is broken. But that is because he was written for 6ed and didn't transition well into 7ed. His 2++ was at the cost of one of his spells since in 6ed he only got his mastery level in warp charges but now its free and their are way more powerful spells he gets to auto pick.

**Drasius**

Last time I read Severin Loth's rules wording, his 2++ came at the cost of a warp charge at the start of the movement phase. Since you don't have any then, it shouldn't still work, or has FW updated their rules and I missed it?

**Jimsolo**

Some Forgeworld chapter tactics are broken, some aren't.

**SharkoutofWata**

Drasius wrote:
Last time I read Severin Loth's rules wording, his 2++ came at the cost of a warp charge at the start of the movement phase. Since you don't have any then, it shouldn't still work, or has FW updated their rules and I missed it?

House Rules are a thing and easy to add to a game. 40k isn't perfect and players should proactively make it work. In this case, the answer is to forfeit one if the Warp Charges you would get in the Psychic Phase. But it has not been fixed by official rules yet.

**BlaxicanX**

Don't see how this is significantly worse then Iron Hands, who get 6+ FNP on every infantry unit they have, as well as IWND on characters and vehicles, Centurions and Smashfucker.

If you're losing games because your opponent's tactical squads have a 5++... you've got bigger things to worry about.

**Quickjager**

Yea, if you can't handle Tac. Squads with FNP, how are you dealing with Necrons? Forgeworld tactics are actually balanced.

**Belac Ynnead**

Not to hijack the thread, but what is the consensus on Raptor Tactics? I'm currently painting up a smallish rhino rush list that I plan on running with raptor tactics, but I don't want to ruffle people's feathers. I could run them as ravenguard I guess, but I've already converted up a cool Lias Issodon.

I mean, Issodon is a chapter master without an invulnerable save or orbital bombardment for crying out loud. He does a cool trick or two, but that's it.

**centuryslayer**

some of the FW ones are kinda powerful, like red scorps and mantis warriors, but others are kinda fair and pretty cool. ^^

**Poly Ranger**

Belac Ynnead wrote:
Not to hijack the thread, but what is the consensus on Raptor Tactics? I'm currently painting up a smallish rhino rush list that I plan on running with raptor tactics, but I don't want to ruffle people's feathers. I could run them as ravenguard I guess, but I've already converted up a cool Lias Issodon.

I mean, Issodon is a chapter master without an invulnerable save or orbital bombardment for crying out loud. He does a cool trick or two, but that's it.

A cool trick or 2?
He:
-Infiltrates/outflanks 3 units and himself.
-Grants his unit shrouded.
-Grants his unit T1 stealth.
-Grants his unit scout.
-Causes d3 haywire or (can't remember exactly how many) wounds to a unit of choice before battle begins.
-Has sternguard ammo on a higher rate of fire gun.
-Acts as a comms relay for reserves.
-Influences opponents reserves rolls.

He is the most powerful SM IC imo. That is not a bad thing though.

As to raptor tactics - they are good, but not OP in the slightest.

**ZebioLizard2**

If 5+ FnP Tactical Squads are causing you issue, something may infact be wrong with your list.

**Glitcha**

Looking over the post and reading the FW chapter tactics, a lot of these come with some altering aspect to the army to change the way they play. Basically, what chapter tactics should do. Also yes tactical squad Sergeants and veteran sergeants can have the narthecium. So basically army wide fnp, but FW did put in it should be modeled on the sergeants. Loth, took a hit when the faq came out. Before, he could pick an psykic table from the brb and he know all the powers and could cast up to 3 from the table. Now you have to choose his powers. But like all psykic powers they can be denied. Even Loth activating his armor can be denied.

**Belac Ynnead**

Poly Ranger wrote:
Belac Ynnead wrote:
Not to hijack the thread, but what is the consensus on Raptor Tactics? I'm currently painting up a smallish rhino rush list that I plan on running with raptor tactics, but I don't want to ruffle people's feathers. I could run them as ravenguard I guess, but I've already converted up a cool Lias Issodon.

I mean, Issodon is a chapter master without an invulnerable save or orbital bombardment for crying out loud. He does a cool trick or two, but that's it.

A cool trick or 2?
He:
-Infiltrates/outflanks 3 units and himself.
-Grants his unit shrouded.
-Grants his unit T1 stealth.
-Grants his unit scout.
-Causes d3 haywire or (can't remember exactly how many) wounds to a unit of choice before battle begins.
-Has sternguard ammo on a higher rate of fire gun.
-Acts as a comms relay for reserves.
-Influences opponents reserves rolls.

He is the most powerful SM IC imo. That is not a bad thing though.

As to raptor tactics - they are good, but not OP in the slightest.

You forgot that he also has a locator beacon.

Also, the stealth and scout is not from Lias himself - that's just the raptor tactics.

But point taken - he's basically space marine batman.

**DarknessEternal**

The ratio of broken to unbroken rules from FW is no greater than from GW.

**soomemafia**

Glitcha wrote:
Looking over the post and reading the FW chapter tactics, a lot of these come with some altering aspect to the army to change the way they play. Basically, what chapter tactics should do. Also yes tactical squad Sergeants and veteran sergeants can have the narthecium. So basically army wide fnp, but FW did put in it should be modeled on the sergeants. Loth, took a hit when the faq came out. Before, he could pick an psykic table from the brb and he know all the powers and could cast up to 3 from the table. Now you have to choose his powers. But like all psykic powers they can be denied. Even Loth activating his armor can be denied.

How? It's not a psychic power so you can't deny it with your own dice.

And the Red Scorpions chapter tactics are far from the best.
The Star Phantoms for example get twin-linked to all of their weapons for the first turn, making them the best SM drop pod army.
And the Red Hunters can get Skyfire/Counter-attack/couple of other useful rules on any of their units.

Feel no Pain on a medicore unit like Tactical Squad can ne troublesome, but about as OP as Tactical Terminators (2+ save and an Invunerable!?!? Opnerfplz)

**Roger Dorn**

6+ invul (Iron Hands) vs. 5+ invul (Red Scorpions) is a big difference.

Severin Loth was the bigger issue. If he rolled a six for warp charges, he had 9 warp charges due to the lvl. 3 mastery, which made his 2+ invul a given. If the old rules were still in place, it would be okay to have the invul as an option because warp charges are more scarce so you'd have to pick the invul or the powers, especially the more powerful ones.

My opponent didn't have to pick and choose. He was able to get off the invul save, enfeeble, and endurance in the same turn. Ridiculous.

**CrownAxe**

Roger Dorn wrote:
6+ invul (Iron Hands) vs. 5+ invul (Red Scorpions) is a big difference.

They aren't invul saves, they're Feel No Pain. So you don't get FNP against wounds that would cause instant death (so S8 vs Smurfs).

And the big difference is that Red Scorpians only get to give FNP to their tactical marines. So all the big fancy units like bikes and centurians don't get anything from their CT.