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 Darkness wrote:
After reading the book front to back a few times, I am not too happy with it. It basically runs like a mono Demon build with a few benefits over the demon book and some downsides that can be pretty big. The formations are mostly bad too. There are a lot of minor things.

For starters, the armor relic is the cost of a cultist unit and can only be used by Demon Princes.
The ax that turns you into a bloodthirster is more expensive than that one.
No dozers on landraiders
no dirge casters at all

What are the formations?

thraxdown wrote:

Darkness wrote:After reading the book front to back a few times, I am not too happy with it. It basically runs like a mono Demon build with a few benefits over the demon book and some downsides that can be pretty big. The formations are mostly bad too. There are a lot of minor things.

For starters, the armor relic is the cost of a cultist unit and can only be used by Demon Princes.
The ax that turns you into a bloodthirster is more expensive than that one.
No dozers on landraiders
no dirge casters at all

Darkness wrote:Skulltaker can only fight on foot :(

Wow, I've never gone from excited to buy a product to actual anger. It literally gets worse every time more of thw book is revealed. There's no way I'm buying this thing now. It's insulting to me as a customer that they're releasing this codex with this poor of rules. When will a summoned bloodthirster ever be useful? Why is an army already at a huge disadvantage against the majority of the game given point increases and forbidden from taking options that could actually help it work? it feels like we're being trolled. I'm pretty tempted to put my chaos army on ebay now. And now I see why they keep such a tight lid on rumors, when they release garbage like this it's best for them the player base doesn't know and buys the book based on what it potentially could be. Knowing what it actually is, I won't spend a dime on it. I really don't get this book, does GW hate money?

Wow stop talking about that a summoned BT would be useless. He don't come from reserve he is summoned. He don't have to fly when he arrives. Look at the codex at mission objective Nr. 15. You gain 1 victory point when a unit of daemons come in from deep strike reserve OR is summoned over the blood for the blood God rule. That mean its not the same. The only restriction that he gains from deep strike rule is that he cant charge in the turn he arrives. So place him within 6 inch, hope that he survive one turn and then pick up some skulls :-)

At least with Bloodletters/Bloodcrushers + Icon there's finally a way to make Warp Talons DS without scattering.

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
At least with Bloodletters/Bloodcrushers + Icon there's finally a way to make Warp Talons DS without scattering.

It's true. If it wasn't nearly 200 points for 5 of them, they might be worth taking, finally.

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:

 Darkness wrote:
After reading the book front to back a few times, I am not too happy with it. It basically runs like a mono Demon build with a few benefits over the demon book and some downsides that can be pretty big. The formations are mostly bad too. There are a lot of minor things.

For starters, the armor relic is the cost of a cultist unit and can only be used by Demon Princes.
The ax that turns you into a bloodthirster is more expensive than that one.
No dozers on landraiders
no dirge casters at all

What are the formations?

Here you go!

 Darkness wrote:
Skulltaker can only fight on foot :(

Nooooo I've got a juggernaut converted to stick him on already I did wonder if they would squat that option, bah.

BOLS lounge has a photo of the Khorne 'Decurion' detachment (it was described but I havent seen an actual picture of it yet)

 Warboss85 wrote:

Wow stop talking about that a summoned BT would be useless. He don't come from reserve he is summoned. He don't have to fly when he arrives. Look at the codex at mission objective Nr. 15. You gain 1 victory point when a unit of daemons come in from deep strike reserve OR is summoned over the blood for the blood God rule. That mean its not the same. The only restriction that he gains from deep strike rule is that he cant charge in the turn he arrives. So place him within 6 inch, hope that he survive one turn and then pick up some skulls :-)

I am afraid you are absolutely wrong.

Codex: Daemonkin pg.11, "Designers note":

When a rule indicates that a unit is summoned, a new unit under your control immeadiately arrives via Deep strike within range of the specified unit(s) on the board.

The Rules, pg. 162, "Deep Strike":

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arive by Deep Strike.

So Deep Strike always necessitates Reserves, even if the expression is not used in the summong note and even if the unit didn't exist before.

Which means that

The Rules, pg. 68, "Flying Monstrous Creatures":

If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
[...]
If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn.

still applies.

at the start of your turn, you spend 8 blood tithe points for a BT to immeadiately arrive (from Reserves) via Deep Strike in Swooping mode. It cannot move any further and has to wait until NEXT turn, at the beginning of its move, to change flight mode to gliding. It the has to wait ANOTHER TURN to be able to charge.

considering you won't get 8 blood tithe points until turn 3, so be able to spend it not until the beginning of turn 4, your summoned Bloodthirster will be able to charge not until TURN SIX (if there is one).

now think about that artifact axe that summons a BT when the character holding it dies. He propably won't die until turn 3-4 in melee, but that's not the point. The summoned BT has to wait 2 turns before being able to impact the game, during each of which he looses d3 wounds! Albeit he has his 5++ save againt that, statistics say he'll propably loose 3 of his 5 wounds BEFORE doing anything (that is: IF he doesn't scatter into enemy troops within 6" of the dead artifact bearer and mishaps in the first place). And mind you, the enemy can shoot him, too! So you're paying +30pts over an axe of khorne to put an impressive and expensive model on the table that does nothing until turn SEVEN besides giving your opponent another killpoint. Great!

How much does that differ from just having the model standing besides the table, looking good, and not using him in your army at all, saving points for stuff that works?

What was I saying about the disconnect between the rules writers and the written rules?

With the Formations, if you take the Bloodhost Detachment it does allow you to take 8 Maulerfiends or Soulgrinders. Ive already worked out a few lists with this in mind. 1 has 10 Maulerfiends, 1 has 8 Maulerfiends and 2 Bloodthirsters, and 1 has 8 grinders with torrent and battlecannon

I think most of the actual formations look solid. I'm interested in the whole picture. Funny thing is if this had come out well before the Mechanicum stuff I would be far more interested but my favorite faction being right behind it kinda temper my enthusiasm

 Darkness wrote:
With the Formations, if you take the Bloodhost Detachment it does allow you to take 8 Maulerfiends or Soulgrinders.

I too thought this to be one of the few worthwile additions chaos got out of this dex, but unfortunately, the "war engine" part of the Blood Host detachment is not a formation itself (it has no datasheet), but only an army list entry from C:KDK, so there is no way around having to field a whole CAD or 1+ slaughtercult. As I don't see any reason one would want that, my idea of a pack of khornate fiends still won't be realized outside apocalypse (seriously, why do people still not allow those formations?).

I guess the one good thing left to mention is that via the gorepack you are now able to add fearless hounds and khorne bikers with MtC and non-unwieldy AP2 axe-champs to any army you like, regardless of FA slots. That is also a good opportunity for people to field Juggernaught riders, because Bloodcrushers sure aren't!

I just happen to not like bikers at all (aesthetically/fluffwise) :(

I can't remember but I though someone said you got a free second choice when spending blood points in the Khorne Decurion as long as it was less than the amount spent up to a certain number? Was that right? Because at that point in a double khorne detachment scenario you can grab a unit of 3 Bloodcrushers and 10 Blood letters ever other turn assuming you get a unit of cultists killed at the right time or nab 2 extra points.

Sadly, the cutoff point is at the last buff, not the first summon.

So you can't grab a Skull Cannon for immediate impact and follow it up with reinforcements.

Still, summoning and applying a buff in the same turn is still fairly good.

Side note: Did a little conversing around the local store today, and it seems my local meta seems to go with FMC being able to charge the turn after they strike in for various reasons that admittedly don't fit the rules lawyer precision raw... But given that going by their white dwarf battle report GW seem to do the same thing themselves I'm not gonna argue hard against what's probably a good call.

 Nehekhare wrote:

 Darkness wrote:
With the Formations, if you take the Bloodhost Detachment it does allow you to take 8 Maulerfiends or Soulgrinders.

I too thought this to be one of the few worthwile additions chaos got out of this dex, but unfortunately, the "war engine" part of the Blood Host detachment is not a formation itself (it has no datasheet), but only an army list entry from C:KDK, so there is no way around having to field a whole CAD or 1+ slaughtercult.

I don't think you understand how it works.

You take one Core then between 1-8 of the other min-formations in any combination.

Thus:
Slaughter Cult:
Chaos Lord
2x 8 CSM
5 Bloodletters

War Engine
Maulerfiend

War Engine
Maulerfiend

War Engine
Maulerfiend

War Engine
Maulerfiend

War Engine
Maulerfiend

War Engine
Maulerfiend

War Engine
Maulerfiend

War Engine
Maulerfiend


Is something that would fit in a 1500 point list and perfectly legal.

I've seen this pop up a few times on proposed lists..

Is it confirmed that you can take BL in 5s in this book?

That's a significant departure from the CD book, where they had their min size increased to 10 last update, or are people making assumptions based on the previous book who aren't familiar with the most recent update?

It's been said that 8 is the min for each of the troop choices.

You can take minimum units of 8 of anything.

changemod wrote:
But given that going by their white dwarf battle report GW seem to do the same thing themselves I'm not gonna argue hard against what's probably a good call.

would you mind quoting what they did?

Hmmm... I have mixed feelings about this new army construction mechanic GW is pushing. They hit the nail right on the head with special Detachments, but these formations made of formations... Something about it doesn't feel right.

I actually like them. We have the base way of building armies and then larger benefit for playing "fluffy" which I can also appreciate.

Wait so we've been wrong the whole time about the FMC deepstriking?

When i think about it, the thing of switching flying modes doesn't require you to actually move, it only require that you declare that you do it during the movement phase..., could that be it?

I just heard from my LGS that the Special Edition is being delayed. Wont get them in until April 11, his friend at GW store says.

 oni wrote:
Hmmm... I have mixed feelings about this new army construction mechanic GW is pushing. They hit the nail right on the head with special Detachments, but these formations made of formations... Something about it doesn't feel right.

It prevents spam and encourages army types seen in the background. What's not right?

 Vash108 wrote:
I just heard from my LGS that the Special Edition is being delayed. Wont get them in until April 11, his friend at GW store says.

Only for that particular shop or for every darn shops?

Called GW and they confirmed. This is for all US stores apparently.

It said it would be delivered April 11 from the get-go, at least on the U.S. site when I ordered it the day they were put up for preorder.

I tired to look it up on the site but it was removed. I just expected them to come out together like all the other ones.

Just seems like a huge gap in time to me.

It's lame to wait another week, whatever the reason. Oh well, gives me more time to stew in my rage .

The last time I pre-ordered a codex from GW it didn't arrive until 2 weeks after the release date anyways. I don't think they give a rat's patootee once they have your money.