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2015/04/12 06:21:47
Subject: Eldar Rumors - Page 12 - White Dwarf Hints
Although mroe than agreed - a new Sisters Codex and figures range is much more needed than another Astartes: "Cosmetically different Marines" Codex.
Uh... Sisters ARE "cosmetically different marines."
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/12 06:21:57
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
2015/04/12 09:06:22
Subject: Eldar Rumors - Page 12 - White Dwarf Hints
Although mroe than agreed - a new Sisters Codex and figures range is much more needed than another Astartes: "Cosmetically different Marines" Codex.
Uh... Sisters ARE "cosmetically different marines."
Errr - no not really - stats are different, special units are different, vehicles are different, special powers are different, background is different, -the only thing that is the same is that the both wear Power Armour (and thats a different style so looks totally different), use Bolters and fight for the Imperium.
And the 5th edition Space Wolf book gave us Wolf Wolfborn, of the Space Wolves, riding a giant wolf with his wolf claws and his wolf tooth necklace.
Or wolf wolf, wolf, wolf, wolf wolf.
yep ad that was crap too. and of course the great sliegh of not awesomeness - loved that for my Space Wolves. Also Murder dreadnought from Murder world.
As noted the absurdity of the 40k universe is great - just keep using one world to somehow create a "theme" is lazy and weak.
back to Eldar - I am worried we will not see Wave Serpents or Howling Banshees fixed and somehow make the whole thing worse........ They make just make a super fast army formation and make WS better or screw over half the army like they did with Wyches and Dark Eldar.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Errr - no not really - stats are different, special units are different, vehicles are different, special powers are different, background is different, -the only thing that is the same is that the both wear Power Armour (and thats a different style so looks totally different), use Bolters and fight for the Imperium.
Grey Knights. Different stats, different special units, different vehicles, different special powers, different background... check.
Space Wolves. Different stats, different special units, different vehicles, different special powers, different background... check
Dark Angles. Different stats, different special units, different vehicles, different special powers, different background.. check
Etc..
By that benchmark, the problem of *cosmetically different* Marines doesn't exist anyhow.
2015/04/12 09:36:21
Subject: Eldar Rumors - Page 12 - White Dwarf Hints
Errr - no not really - stats are different, special units are different, vehicles are different, special powers are different, background is different, -the only thing that is the same is that the both wear Power Armour (and thats a different style so looks totally different), use Bolters and fight for the Imperium.
Grey Knights. Different stats, different special units, different vehicles, different special powers, different background... check.
Space Wolves. Different stats, different special units, different vehicles, different special powers, different background... check
Dark Angles. Different stats, different special units, different vehicles, different special powers, different background.. check
Etc..
By that benchmark, the problem of *cosmetically different* Marines doesn't exist anyhow.
Rubbish - what different stats for the Marines - the basic Marines are the same - WS4, BS4 S4, T4, I3 LD8 etc - by that standard the whole Imperial forces are the same.
Sisters are S3, T3, I3, - they are closer to Guard with Power Armour with special powers - as you well know.
Before the 5th edition rubbish - how different were the Chapters you list??? Dark Angels had some special formations and structure, same as the Space Wolves and Blood Angels. Now they have "unique units" just to try and justify a Codex. Their background and ay of fighting already differentiates them more than "themed" units.
You are seriously saying the backgroudn was improved with the various "blood" weapons, wolves riding wolves, Sleighs pulled by Wolves, Murder Dreadnought from Murder world, Super pure Grey Knights who are purere than the rest of the super Pure chapter ?? I know I hated them for all my Marine armies
By your reasoning - Each of the 1000 different Asartes Chapters should get their own Codex rather than the just the random ones they have chosen and keep trying to make different.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Errr - no not really - stats are different, special units are different, vehicles are different, special powers are different, background is different, -the only thing that is the same is that the both wear Power Armour (and thats a different style so looks totally different), use Bolters and fight for the Imperium.
Grey Knights. Different stats, different special units, different vehicles, different special powers, different background... check.
Space Wolves. Different stats, different special units, different vehicles, different special powers, different background... check
Dark Angles. Different stats, different special units, different vehicles, different special powers, different background.. check
Etc..
By that benchmark, the problem of *cosmetically different* Marines doesn't exist anyhow.
Rubbish - what different stats for the Marines - the basic Marines are the same - WS4, BS4 S4, T4, I3 LD8 etc - by that standard the whole Imperial forces are the same.
Sisters are S3, T3, I3, - they are closer to Guard with Power Armour with special powers - as you well know.
Space Wolves have a fair few units with WS/BS3, whereas both Wolves and DA have Scouts with WS/BS4. Grey Knights have better LD, are Psykers, some with 2 Wounds. All of them have actually far more units without Power Armour than Sisters have (Terminators, Scouts, Sanguinary Guard). Abilities vary widely (as noted, Psykers, Deathwing, Raven Wing, Thunderwolves, etc..).
A Space Wolf on a Thunderwolf, a Grey Knight Paladin or a Ravenwing Biker are far, far, far more different to a normal Marine than anything found in the Sisters book, not to mention things like Storm Wolves with Helfrost weapons, Dreadknights with Incinerators or Land Speeder Darkshroud. Arguably, they are more different from a normal Marine than even a Guardsman is different from a normal Marine.
Are you seriously arguing that a small difference in 3 random stats and a female haircut optic makes Sisters the big exception while thousands of other differences don't matter?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/12 09:49:53
2015/04/12 10:14:19
Subject: Eldar Rumors - Page 12 - White Dwarf Hints
Although mroe than agreed - a new Sisters Codex and figures range is much more needed than another Astartes: "Cosmetically different Marines" Codex.
Uh... Sisters ARE "cosmetically different marines."
No there not. Let's look at why shall we?
Firstly sisters are T3 they have lower WS and are Primarily are Shooting / mid range army relying on Heavy flamers and melta weaponry to take mobs and out heavy armoured foes respectively.
Do Space Marines have Acts of Faith? Possibly if you count litanies of hate.
They have one CC unit one (unless you take priests which you get access to another that is fairly usless.) . That has literally no armour save. If your smart you'll shoot this first whichever they take
They have a CC walker that's mid range also again it's rare this gets into CC and compared to a dreadnaught it's rather weak.
They have the immolator a mid range tank, and the exorsist their only long range weapon. That has more in common with IG viechles except that it's mounted on a rhino body.
I'm not sure on the latest dex if they still have the Rosirus but if they do okay fine a 5+ inv( 3+/5+ inv ) that's better in my mind than a regular 3+
Fratis Militia / Redempionists a mob unit that is more in common with Chaos Cultists. Depending on the Version ones purely pistol, the other has autoguns.
So let's see what they have in common with Space Marines.
I'm going to wave the Inquisitors as in my mind felt tacked on
Their weaponry okay yes Boltguns ( including Storm and Heavy / pistols) , Heavy and regular flamer/ melta guns as well as hand flamers
They use rhinos as the basis for their two offensive tanks and use the basic as their transport.
You could argue that Dominions are just Devostators and Seraphim are just Jump pack troopers but the Seraphim are more like mobile mid range harassment troops and SM Jump Are more quick hitting CC, ill give you Dominions if you take all Heavy Bolters.
Sister Superiors can get Power weapons but cant all Seargent type character people? I think Tau are the only ones that cant.
And finally power armour oh my why would another Army use our special snowflake Armour and weapons.
SoB had an army before Black Templars, before Grey Knights. You could say that Grey Knights stole acts of Faith with their whole psychic powers stick but I'm willing to wave this as I'm sure they had psychic powers before. But not regular power Armour.
And don't they have a save against warp powers?( again not sure if each unit has them now or they are just fancy SM now). Sisters had this.
If you still think they are still SM. Okay fine.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/12 10:26:38
2015/04/12 10:27:27
Subject: Re:Eldar Rumors - Page 12 - White Dwarf Hints
Errr - no not really - stats are different, special units are different, vehicles are different, special powers are different, background is different, -the only thing that is the same is that the both wear Power Armour (and thats a different style so looks totally different), use Bolters and fight for the Imperium.
Grey Knights. Different stats, different special units, different vehicles, different special powers, different background... check.
Space Wolves. Different stats, different special units, different vehicles, different special powers, different background... check
Dark Angles. Different stats, different special units, different vehicles, different special powers, different background.. check
Etc..
By that benchmark, the problem of *cosmetically different* Marines doesn't exist anyhow.
Rubbish - what different stats for the Marines - the basic Marines are the same - WS4, BS4 S4, T4, I3 LD8 etc - by that standard the whole Imperial forces are the same.
Sisters are S3, T3, I3, - they are closer to Guard with Power Armour with special powers - as you well know.
Space Wolves have a fair few units with WS/BS3, whereas both Wolves and DA have Scouts with WS/BS4. Grey Knights have better LD, are Psykers, some with 2 Wounds. All of them have actually far more units without Power Armour than Sisters have (Terminators, Scouts, Sanguinary Guard). Abilities vary widely (as noted, Psykers, Deathwing, Raven Wing, Thunderwolves, etc..).
A Space Wolf on a Thunderwolf, a Grey Knight Paladin or a Ravenwing Biker are far, far, far more different to a normal Marine than anything found in the Sisters book, not to mention things like Storm Wolves with Helfrost weapons, Dreadknights with Incinerators or Land Speeder Darkshroud. Arguably, they are more different from a normal Marine than even a Guardsman is different from a normal Marine.
Are you seriously arguing that a small difference in 3 random stats and a female haircut optic makes Sisters the big exception while thousands of other differences don't matter?
I know I'm wading into one of the silliest arguments you can have on the internet, BUT...
Grey Knights obviously require their own codex. Even though the basic structure of the army is the same ("5-10 marines in power armor in a Rhino, repeat"), the wargear options and mechanics of their special rules are drastically different. Most importantly, these differences are justified by how extremely different Grey Knights are from other marine chapters in the fluff.
Now look at Blood Angels and Dark Angels. Fluff-wise they are actually codex compliant chapters, and although they emphasize different tactics and organizational structures, they don't differ to a greater extent than Raven Guard or White Scars (who fit into the vanilla codex just fine) or especially Black Templars (who aren't remotely compliant, and I would argue don't fit in the vanilla codex well, but improvements to their characters and chapter tactics could make it work). So there isn't a great fluff justification for them to need drastically different rules in the first place (heck, in second edition they shared a codex, and it was virtually identical to the vanilla codex barring a few special rules, and they were still very popular).
In terms of mechanics of their unique rules units, I would argue that once you eliminate the various new additions that should be unborn and forgotten about (like the Land Speeder Incredibly Silly), units/rules that should be available to all codex chapters (jump pack honor guard, librarian dreadnoughts, the ability to field a terminator company or bike company, etc), and units that are superfluous duplicates (the Dark Angels fighter and Storm Guppy could both be supplanted by one kit with the Nephilim's superior looks and the Guppy's superior rules as probably the best example) you're left with unique units and chapter tactics that aren't any more drastic than the Black Templars' treatment.
While this would result in a huge codex, I think it would benefit all marine players. The only units lost by the BA/DA would be those whose fluff (and physical appearance) was the equivalent of a saturday morning cartoon - invented quickly and lazily out of wholecloth to sell chunky plastic toys. In turn they would gain access to various vanilla codex units, and more importantly, they would all share a common baseline set of rules - all chapters would be more or less equally functional and none would be left lagging behind for years (sorry about that, Dark Angels). In turn, the vanilla codex would benefit from units it's been missing to avoid stepping on toes ("Only the Blood Angels honor guard can ever go into battle with jump packs, Raven Guard would never do that!") and it would give another chance to rejigger the chapter tactics of some of the overlooked chapters in the vanilla dex. Everybody wins.
(I'm not going to touch Space Wolves in this conversation, I think their new fluff and new units are terrible, but I'd be fine if they and the Black Templars were the only separate marine codexes.)
Anyway, back to the main point, Sisters of Battle. Honestly compare them to marines. Is the comparison like BA/DA, where virtually every unit has an identical name, stats, weapon choices, and special rules (or if not identical, close enough they could be merged without violating any fluff), bar a few truly unique units and an army wide rule or two? Or is it like Grey Knights, where literally every unit has unique stats, weapons options, and special rules, with almost nothing in common except a few bits of wargear like armor and bolters, and even the fluff is so drastically different you couldn't merge the two without trashing it?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/12 10:38:24
Battlefleet Gothic ships and markers at my store, GrimDarkBits:
2015/04/12 10:44:27
Subject: Eldar Rumors - Page 12 - White Dwarf Hints
Now look at Blood Angels and Dark Angels. Fluff-wise they are actually codex compliant chapters, and although they emphasize different tactics and organizational structures, they don't differ to a greater extent than Raven Guard or White Scars (who fit into the vanilla codex just fine) or especially Black Templars (who aren't remotely compliant, and I would argue don't fit in the vanilla codex well, but improvements to their characters and chapter tactics could make it work). So there isn't a great fluff justification for them to need drastically different rules in the first place (heck, in second edition they shared a codex, and it was virtually identical to the vanilla codex barring a few special rules, and they were still very popular).
In terms of mechanics of their unique rules units, I would argue that once you eliminate the various new additions that should be unborn and forgotten about (like the Land Speeder Incredibly Silly), units/rules that should be available to all codex chapters (jump pack honor guard, librarian dreadnoughts, the ability to field a terminator company or bike company, etc), and units that are superfluous duplicates (the Dark Angels fighter and Storm Guppy could both be supplanted by one kit with the Nephilim's superior looks and the Guppy's superior rules as probably the best example) you're left with unique units and chapter tactics that aren't any more drastic than the Black Templars' treatment.
Well, change the fluff, if it bothers you so?
"Uncreating" the unique Dark Angels or Space Wolves flyers, units, etc... to roll them into the Space Marines codex is no more or less drastic than upping Sisters to T4, removing the Immolator and rolling them into Space Marines codex, once your all to evident personal bias (e.g. "Storm Guppy") is taken out of it.
2015/04/12 10:44:35
Subject: Re:Eldar Rumors - Page 12 - White Dwarf Hints
SarisKhan wrote: Could you please move the SM discussion somewhere else? This is rumour thread for an Eldar release.
Indeed.
We understand and appreciate that threads will always divert somewhat, especially if there's been no real or substantial info recently, but the above discussion would be best served elsewhere.
Thank you.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2015/04/12 17:42:19
Subject: Eldar Rumors - Page 12 - White Dwarf Hints
It would be great if any/all of the aspect warrior boxes get plastic updates. They could do it with only 2-3 new multi-part plastic boxes. Scorps+Fire Dragons, Warp Spiders+Reapers, Banshees+Hawks. You would have to be clever in the head/sholder/backpack options but it would be a feat of real greatness that I'd love to see happen.
Also new plastic jetbike as that has been a long time coming.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/12 20:57:17
I vote no on dual aspect kits. They'll lose the majority of their uniqueness if they do that they might as well make them one sculpt with weapon options and a painting guide for different aspects.
2015/04/12 21:19:51
Subject: Eldar Rumors - Page 12 - White Dwarf Hints
I love the Aspect sculpts, i really don't think they need new models. Even the most maligned ones, the Warp Spiders, are incredibly well done. Their Exarch especially is a real masterpiece.
2015/04/12 21:29:00
Subject: Eldar Rumors - Page 12 - White Dwarf Hints
Zippokovich wrote: Any guesses on what 'wraith knight gets some punch' could mean?
probably means it can fire more then 2 of its weapons, because currently there is nearly no reason to arm a wraithknight with more then its standard guns unless its sword toting (no one with a brain will use it) or the suncannons scatter laser buddy.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mymearan wrote: I love the Aspect sculpts, i really don't think they need new models. Even the most maligned ones, the Warp Spiders, are incredibly well done. Their Exarch especially is a real masterpiece.
Lies and slander the warp spiders need plastics asap, they are mono posed as hell.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ergotoxin wrote: IMHO the current Swooping Hawks miniatures still look very good, it's just shame they are (as most of the Aspects) Direct Only.
And finecast is getting recalled back
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/12 23:46:11
Rick Priestley said it best:
Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!
2015/04/13 00:06:26
Subject: Eldar Rumors - Page 12 - White Dwarf Hints
Zippokovich wrote: Any guesses on what 'wraith knight gets some punch' could mean?
Strength D melee weapon, possibly with the same 'Colossus' rule that the Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage has on it's Greater Axe of Khorne. Of course, it will still remain T8 because Eldar.
2015/04/13 00:13:33
Subject: Eldar Rumors - Page 12 - White Dwarf Hints
I believe the original statement was "Wraithknight gains some weight" wasn't it?
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
"gains some weight" I will gladly take that to meaning becomes Super-Heavy or Gargantuan. Makes it much tougher and even deadlier. Down side is cost inevitably rises will probably get to use fewer of them. (upside to some, downside to others)
2015/04/13 01:01:27
Subject: Eldar Rumors - Page 12 - White Dwarf Hints
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Mr.Church13 wrote: I vote no on dual aspect kits. They'll lose the majority of their uniqueness if they do that they might as well make them one sculpt with weapon options and a painting guide for different aspects.
Your alternative is the Aspects that don't get a new kit get cut from the Codex.
Mr.Church13 wrote: I vote no on dual aspect kits. They'll lose the majority of their uniqueness if they do that they might as well make them one sculpt with weapon options and a painting guide for different aspects.
Your alternative is the Aspects that don't get a new kit get cut from the Codex.
Your choice.
You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villian
just hangin' out, hangin' out
2015/04/13 03:40:06
Subject: Eldar Rumors - Page 12 - White Dwarf Hints
Mr.Church13 wrote: I vote no on dual aspect kits. They'll lose the majority of their uniqueness if they do that they might as well make them one sculpt with weapon options and a painting guide for different aspects.
Your alternative is the Aspects that don't get a new kit get cut from the Codex.
Your choice.
Honestly I'd rather them be cut than lose everything that make them special. They make them dual kits then they're no different than tactical marines from assault marines. Same suit different backpack.
2015/04/13 04:01:12
Subject: Eldar Rumors - Page 12 - White Dwarf Hints
Mr.Church13 wrote: I vote no on dual aspect kits. They'll lose the majority of their uniqueness if they do that they might as well make them one sculpt with weapon options and a painting guide for different aspects.
Your alternative is the Aspects that don't get a new kit get cut from the Codex.
Your choice.
Honestly I'd rather them be cut than lose everything that make them special. They make them dual kits then they're no different than tactical marines from assault marines. Same suit different backpack.
This is the problem right here:
People want new models when we should want new rules.
Lots of people here probably has squads of unused aspect models as it is.
Edit: I dont think they wil cut the aspects that lack plastic models. After all, they released codex: daemonkin with fleshhounds in it, and even a web bundle with fleshhounds despite the fact that finecast fleshhounds are out of stock.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/13 04:12:30
Hive Fleet Aquarius 2-1-0
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