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Caederes wrote:

Errrr......clearly you haven't seen that picture I found.

Eldar: Most D weapons, best psykers, most mobile, most str 6 spam, JSJ and highly durable units.......zzzzzzzz.

What do the other armies get again?

Will D-scythes count as destroyer weapons? D weapon flamers would be incredibly scary.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Chad Warden wrote:
Well we just had Khorne Daemonkin and that changed barely anything from the equivalent units in CD and CSM, so I dont see those updated anytime soon, and if they are it would be the exact same profiles.

They completely removed demonic instability. that is huge bud.

They kept the same profiles and points costs and changed a few (very significant)special rules

The point being, if CSM are coming soon they will be exactly the same weapons, profiles and points costs as Daemonikin (so mediocre and nothing like on the power level of new Eldar).

Plot twist: In 2016 they will progress the story of 40k to the year 43k and kill of smelldar!

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Anglacon wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
If D is for "D-weapon", are demolisher cannons going to become Destroyer too? If so, I would be allll for that. Heck, why not make all guns that start with the letter "D" a destroyer weapon?

Dark Lances and Disintegrators...
The Dark Eldar approve of this line of thinking....

Da Gunz for da Orkz

Dakkagunz

How has it been confirmed that the sword will swing at initiative 1?

im quite annoyed I have been waiting for new bikes for years, so I can make a bike army, but now the rules have been announced everyone is raging.
I planed to buy two units of these before the rule leaks. Now I don't know what to do. I only have enough time and money for one army and I love Eldar, but it seems as an Eldar player I wont get any games now. iv been an Eldar player since 5th ED now I feel like i'm in a tricky situation.

People expected Eldar to get toned down. Why? Look at the Necrons book, the took out MSS on lords, the dlord joining wraiths and bumped the price up on fliers, everything else got better or stayed the same. Why would folks think after the last Cron book this would happen to eldar? GW is releasing 1 model type for this codex, new bikes, they want them to sell.

How are jetbikes used currently. The are still cheap and you can have 1 shuriken cannons per 3 bikes. No one takes the shuriken cannons and no one takes more than 3 bikes. 2x3 bikes as core, reserve them, have them hug table edges/terrain and just take objectives. Why not take 6 now with 2 shuriken cannons? Well they have ldr 8, have a larger footprint, are easier to shoot and there are better units to take that can do damage.

Now lets say we give each of those 6 bikes scatter lasers. The unit does 24 str 6 ap - shots. But the unit costs 200 pts. 24 shots hit 16 times, wounds 14 times, kills 4-5 marines. For 200 pts you could take 10 warp spiders, they have 3+ armor, shoot 20 str 6 ap 5 plus the bladestorm ap 2 wounding hits, can deep strike, can teleport and have ldr 9 as opposed to 8 and their footprint is MUCH smaller than 6 bikes. Personally am I going to trust 200 pts to ldr 8? No way. Would I make a unit of 10 with 10 scatter lasers? No, the footprint would be huge and vulnerable to blasts, they can't fight their way out of close combat (which it is easy to get them into with how big the unit would be) and I would have to justify putting a farseer in the unit just to give it ldr 10 and now it has gotten to be a 500 pt unit. You wont see any units this big. Warwalkers have 6 scatter lasers for around 210 pts which is only 10 pts more than the bikes, they dont have ldr issues to worry about, they can outflank or scout and they have a 5+ invul. Do you see warwalkers in all the net lists now- no, but if the bikes are that good why wouldnt war walkers be that good?

How do I envision people using them- I cant say, but I would simply take small squads still and give them shuriken cannons. So now I will spend 81 pts on 3 bikes with 9 str 6 shots- but remember, that same squad could have had 3, so is it really that bad? Now when I lose a model and the rest run off the board, I have spent more points that aren't used elsewhere. Personally, I still think I would rather have 5 man squads of warp spiders running around the board than 4 man squads of jetbikes with shuriken cannons, they take up less board space so they can hide more easily, they teleport around and they have hit and run so they can get out of combat. 5 spiders is 95 with 10 shots, 4 bikes is 108 with 12 shots but the bikes have more disadvantages, the only difference is they are troops.

Now am I saying bikes are bad? No of course not, I am just saying other than being troops, they arent much/any worse than several other options now. I think the only thing you will see is people taking less of the other good stuff and instead putting those points into bikes, in the end, maybe it will change the netlists a bit, they wont be better than they are now, but they wont be worse.

I can see the Scythed Hierodule making a comeback if these bikes are really everywhere. Hellstorm AP3 template sounds pretty good right now, especially with shrouded cover for the first round of attacks.

sturguard wrote:

People expected Eldar to get toned down. Why? Look at the Necrons book, the took out MSS on lords, the dlord joining wraiths and bumped the price up on fliers, everything else got better or stayed the same. Why would folks think after the last Cron book this would happen to eldar? GW is releasing 1 model type for this codex, new bikes, they want them to sell.

Because since Necrons, there have been 3 more books(Harlequin, Skitarii, and Khorne Daemonkin) which have all been fairly balanced?

The original Distortion Cannons -- you got a saving throw for getting out of the way, but it wouldn't matter how many wounds you had if you didn't. *poof*. And it was a 2" radius.

Of course, Space Marines got them too...

Red Eye- buy your bikes, it isnt that big a deal- the jetbikes arent world changing.

 Blacksails wrote:
Some people are suspecting that D-weapons will only act as Destroyer weapons on a roll of 6.

Even if that's the case, it's still pretty ridiculous. I honestly kind of feel bad for Eldar players. Codices that are too powerful are almost as bad as codices that are too weak. Almost.

worse for trying to play pick up games for fun, In the tourney scene they will be a top choice. I thougt I had it bad before trying to get games, now it'll just be plain impossible. not that I'd take more than one unit in a fun game anyway.

 Kanluwen wrote:

sturguard wrote:

People expected Eldar to get toned down. Why? Look at the Necrons book, the took out MSS on lords, the dlord joining wraiths and bumped the price up on fliers, everything else got better or stayed the same. Why would folks think after the last Cron book this would happen to eldar? GW is releasing 1 model type for this codex, new bikes, they want them to sell.

Because since Necrons, there have been 3 more books(Harlequin, Skitarii, and Khorne Daemonkin) which have all been fairly balanced?

The Skitarii look awful nasty, I dont think they are toned down. Harlequins and Daemonkin are unique releases, they are an army yes, but not a typical full codex. Most people are not going to take a full army of Harlequins, most will take a single formation.

 RED EYE JEDI wrote:
im quite annoyed I have been waiting for new bikes for years, so I can make a bike army, but now the rules have been announced everyone is raging.
I planed to buy two units of these before the rule leaks. Now I don't know what to do. I only have enough time and money for one army and I love Eldar, but it seems as an Eldar player I wont get any games now. iv been an Eldar player since 5th ED now I feel like i'm in a tricky situation.

Meh, I'm a Daemon player and still getting non-stop flak for that one summer in '08 where we utterly broke Fantasy itself...

Now I just get flak for;
- 8th edition not "fixing" Daemons enough on its own...
- Our 8th edition army book still being the most OP book in 8th... (despite how utterly dysfunctional it is with barely half the units being actually playable)
- The WD rules for Screamers/Flamers fiasco...
- 6th making Daemons brokenly OP again...
- 7th's Psychic phase + Malefic making Daemons the outright most OP thing in GW history...

Daemon, Necron & Eldar are apparently bad words to say in 40k when asking for a game.

sturguard wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

sturguard wrote:

People expected Eldar to get toned down. Why? Look at the Necrons book, the took out MSS on lords, the dlord joining wraiths and bumped the price up on fliers, everything else got better or stayed the same. Why would folks think after the last Cron book this would happen to eldar? GW is releasing 1 model type for this codex, new bikes, they want them to sell.

Because since Necrons, there have been 3 more books(Harlequin, Skitarii, and Khorne Daemonkin) which have all been fairly balanced?

The Skitarii look awful nasty, I dont think they are toned down. Harlequins and Daemonkin are unique releases, they are an army yes, but not a typical full codex. Most people are not going to take a full army of Harlequins, most will take a single formation.

Skitarii CAN be nasty, but overall they're a fairly balanced book.

sturguard wrote:
Now lets say we give each of those 6 bikes scatter lasers. The unit does 24 str 6 ap - shots. But the unit costs 200 pts. 24 shots hit 16 times, wounds 14 times, kills 4-5 marines. For 200 pts you could take 10 warp spiders, they have 3+ armor, shoot 20 str 6 ap 5 plus the bladestorm ap 2 wounding hits, can deep strike, can teleport and have ldr 9 as opposed to 8 and their footprint is MUCH smaller than 6 bikes. Personally am I going to trust 200 pts to ldr 8? No way. Would I make a unit of 10 with 10 scatter lasers? No, the footprint would be huge and vulnerable to blasts, they can't fight their way out of close combat (which it is easy to get them into with how big the unit would be) and I would have to justify putting a farseer in the unit just to give it ldr 10 and now it has gotten to be a 500 pt unit. You wont see any units this big. Warwalkers have 6 scatter lasers for around 210 pts which is only 10 pts more than the bikes, they dont have ldr issues to worry about, they can outflank or scout and they have a 5+ invul. Do you see warwalkers in all the net lists now- no, but if the bikes are that good why wouldnt war walkers be that good?

Warp Spiders can't jink. Warp Spiders aren't obsec. Warpspiders are shorter range. Also, 200 points gets you 7 Jetbikes with Scatter which is 28 S6 AP6 Shots.

Also, you can't take 40-60 Warp Spiders.

DCannon4Life wrote:
How has it been confirmed that the sword will swing at initiative 1?

I don't think it has. The closest info we have is a battle example in the WD where the Knight swings after the Init 9 Thirster but before the Init 1 Thirster.

Eldar can be balanced too, take a bunch of guardians, rangers, scorpions, falcons etc. Its all what you want to do. You can play ugly with Skitarii as well.

Are people mad because you can play Eldar ugly with several different builds and other codexes only have 1-2 builds to play ugly, because playing against the Daemon Flying Circus, or Cron Decurion or Flyrant spam isnt fun to play against either.

sturguard wrote:
Eldar can be balanced too, take a bunch of guardians, rangers, scorpions, falcons etc. Its all what you want to do. You can play ugly with Skitarii as well.

Are people mad because you can play Eldar ugly with several different builds and other codexes only have 1-2 builds to play ugly, because playing against the Daemon Flying Circus, or Cron Decurion or Flyrant spam isnt fun to play against either.

People are "mad" because there is now effectively an entire formation where the basic troops(Wraithguard) can have Strength D weaponry.

 pretre wrote:

sturguard wrote:
Now lets say we give each of those 6 bikes scatter lasers. The unit does 24 str 6 ap - shots. But the unit costs 200 pts. 24 shots hit 16 times, wounds 14 times, kills 4-5 marines. For 200 pts you could take 10 warp spiders, they have 3+ armor, shoot 20 str 6 ap 5 plus the bladestorm ap 2 wounding hits, can deep strike, can teleport and have ldr 9 as opposed to 8 and their footprint is MUCH smaller than 6 bikes. Personally am I going to trust 200 pts to ldr 8? No way. Would I make a unit of 10 with 10 scatter lasers? No, the footprint would be huge and vulnerable to blasts, they can't fight their way out of close combat (which it is easy to get them into with how big the unit would be) and I would have to justify putting a farseer in the unit just to give it ldr 10 and now it has gotten to be a 500 pt unit. You wont see any units this big. Warwalkers have 6 scatter lasers for around 210 pts which is only 10 pts more than the bikes, they dont have ldr issues to worry about, they can outflank or scout and they have a 5+ invul. Do you see warwalkers in all the net lists now- no, but if the bikes are that good why wouldnt war walkers be that good?

Warp Spiders can't jink. Warp Spiders aren't obsec. Warpspiders are shorter range. Also, 200 points gets you 7 Jetbikes with Scatter which is 28 S6 AP6 Shots.

Also, you can't take 40-60 Warp Spiders.

You can take 30 Warp Spiders. And warp spiders have a smaller footprint, and warp spiders can hide in terrain easier so they aren't shot, and they can deep strike. I dont think anyone confirmed the Scatter Laser option for jetbikes is 10 pts. I think it will be 15 pts which would make a bike 32 pts. 7x32 is 224, so you just get 6 for 200 pts. Now I could be wrong and they are just a 10 pt upgrade, but I would be surprised.

How many people are going to have 60 jetbikes? What are they $40 or so for 3 models? Hey, if someone wants to pay around $800 for 60 jetbikes, I'll at least play them once. Ill take one land raider and win.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

sturguard wrote:
Eldar can be balanced too, take a bunch of guardians, rangers, scorpions, falcons etc. Its all what you want to do. You can play ugly with Skitarii as well.

Are people mad because you can play Eldar ugly with several different builds and other codexes only have 1-2 builds to play ugly, because playing against the Daemon Flying Circus, or Cron Decurion or Flyrant spam isnt fun to play against either.

People are "mad" because there is now effectively an entire formation where the basic troops(Wraithguard) can have Strength D weaponry.

Most things in the game have 1 wound. Wraithguard pretty much killed everything they touched without being D. Honestly if wraithguard go up in points with D weapons, I would much rather them be exactly the way they were without D. The only difference the D makes is against multi wound models, which there arent many of and against heavy armor.

Wraithguard have range issues, always have, don't let them get close and you are fine. If they do, essentially you have the same issue you did in 6th, their d scythe will erase the unit they hit. The wraithcannon variant, well most people take units of 5 in a waveserpent. So in most situations, they did enough damage to kill a MC, now they will overkill a MC. Also how many 6's do you roll on avg with 3 wounding rolls? Given wraithguard are slow, how many times a game do they fire with a 12 inch gun. Maybe twice?

How many Hemlock fighters did you see in 6th? I didnt see one on a table, maybe they needed D to make them viable because their current rules/weapons werent enough to get players to take them.


Again, I am not saying getting D weapons wont be good in certain situations but you assume there is no cost to this upgrade.

10 point cost confirmed. There is plenty of points left after grabbing 140+ Str 6 shots from your jetbikes for a plethora of D weaponry to make a mockery of armor.

sturguard... dude, just... stop. You're white-knighting the unwhite-knightable. It's embarassing.

Deschenus Maximus wrote:
sturguard... dude, just... stop. You're white-knighting the unwhite-knightable. It's embarassing.

This.

Also I fail to see how a Land Raider would win. Objective secured so no contesting and there are still points to spare for D-weapns to blow it up.

I'm not white knighting anything. There is no balance in 40k, none, especially now with allies and formations. You guys are essentially arguing what is the worst of the worst and it really doesn't make sense. Not only that but you are doing it without seeing the full copy of the codex. Some/most of us (or at least I do) want 40k to be balanced, I have been waiting for that for the last 25 years, but at some point you just accept what 40k is and what it isn't. Eldar, Necrons, Tau, Flyrants, armies of Knights, they aren't balanced. You can say my actions are embarrassing... okay, I could tell you to suck it up and stop whining- it is just a game and an imbalanced one at that.

Did the Eldar finaly sit down and compare notes about how they once conquered the stars?

Seer 1: I recall, we had lots lots of scatterlaser, surely there must have been full jetbike squads of scatterlasers!

Seer 2: Aye, and didnt them wraithknights have destroyer weapons? Im sure most of the wraits ran around with those destroyer schytes and whatnot. Not like these days.

Seer 3: By khaine, I think youre on to something!

khaine (to him self): Bha, is that supposed to be an avatar of me? its fething puny!

sturguard wrote:
You can take 30 Warp Spiders. And warp spiders have a smaller footprint, and warp spiders can hide in terrain easier so they aren't shot, and they can deep strike. I dont think anyone confirmed the Scatter Laser option for jetbikes is 10 pts. I think it will be 15 pts which would make a bike 32 pts. 7x32 is 224, so you just get 6 for 200 pts. Now I could be wrong and they are just a 10 pt upgrade, but I would be surprised.

How many people are going to have 60 jetbikes? What are they $40 or so for 3 models? Hey, if someone wants to pay around $800 for 60 jetbikes, I'll at least play them once. Ill take one land raider and win.

27 ppm for Jetbikes with Scatter. And there are plenty of people with Saim Hain armies already. Also, with a farseer with Misfortune and guide, one unit of jetbikes kills a land raider on average. And that ignores the other 700-800 points of the army.

Most things in the game have 1 wound. Wraithguard pretty much killed everything they touched without being D. Honestly if wraithguard go up in points with D weapons, I would much rather them be exactly the way they were without D. The only difference the D makes is against multi wound models, which there arent many of and against heavy armor.

Wraithguard didn't ignore invul and cover before. They didn't one hit most vehicles.

sturguard wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

sturguard wrote:
Eldar can be balanced too, take a bunch of guardians, rangers, scorpions, falcons etc. Its all what you want to do. You can play ugly with Skitarii as well.

Are people mad because you can play Eldar ugly with several different builds and other codexes only have 1-2 builds to play ugly, because playing against the Daemon Flying Circus, or Cron Decurion or Flyrant spam isnt fun to play against either.

People are "mad" because there is now effectively an entire formation where the basic troops(Wraithguard) can have Strength D weaponry.

Most things in the game have 1 wound. Wraithguard pretty much killed everything they touched without being D. Honestly if wraithguard go up in points with D weapons, I would much rather them be exactly the way they were without D. The only difference the D makes is against multi wound models, which there arent many of and against heavy armor.

Wraithguard have range issues, always have, don't let them get close and you are fine. If they do, essentially you have the same issue you did in 6th, their d scythe will erase the unit they hit. The wraithcannon variant, well most people take units of 5 in a waveserpent. So in most situations, they did enough damage to kill a MC, now they will overkill a MC. Also how many 6's do you roll on avg with 3 wounding rolls? Given wraithguard are slow, how many times a game do they fire with a 12 inch gun. Maybe twice?
How many Hemlock fighters did you see in 6th? I didnt see one on a table, maybe they needed D to make them viable because their current rules/weapons werent enough to get players to take them.

Again, I am not saying getting D weapons wont be good in certain situations but you assume there is no cost to this upgrade.

So. Do you really not see any issues with the potential amount of Strength D being thrown around by Eldar?

When your BASIC option for a Wraithguard unit can throw around small S: D templates, you want to say that there is somehow a "cost" to that upgrade?

Too bad I wont be getting Eldar, I have necrons and I want my next army too be Astra miitarum

We shouldn't get too crazy about Wraithguard getting Destroyer weapons just yet. It's quite possible that it's a lesser version of the rule. White Dwarf's little bit of text isn't really proof.
They always talk up all of their units to make them sound appealing. How many people will have rushed out/gone online to buy boxes of Wraithguard based on that assumption already?

By all means go into an all out nerd rage if its in the codex.

Just hold on to your hat (apologist). I wouldn't eat it quite yet.

sturguard wrote:
I'm not white knighting anything. There is no balance in 40k, none, especially now with allies and formations. You guys are essentially arguing what is the worst of the worst and it really doesn't make sense. Not only that but you are doing it without seeing the full copy of the codex. Some/most of us (or at least I do) want 40k to be balanced, I have been waiting for that for the last 25 years, but at some point you just accept what 40k is and what it isn't. Eldar, Necrons, Tau, Flyrants, armies of Knights, they aren't balanced. You can say my actions are embarrassing... okay, I could tell you to suck it up and stop whining- it is just a game and an imbalanced one at that.

There's unbalanced: i.e. this army is better than this other army but good play and certain builds can win the day. (i.e. Adamantine Lance, Wave Serpent Spam, Flyrants)
There's what we've seen of Eldar: i.e. No army is better than this army (i.e. Single CAD - 40 Jetbikes, 1-2 Jetseers, Wraithknight, 0-9 Vauls batteries with D weapons)