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Of course I know that in tournaments but I mean a local play. And in tournamnets I have played you have been banned for fielding such an army and autolose.

 Q0rbin wrote:
Of course I know that in tournaments but I mean a local play. And in tournamnets I have played you have been banned for fielding such an army and autolose.

So then what is the point of having a tournament? I thought we were past elementary school gym class rules where the scoreboard is turned off and we play for "fun". If you want to play for fun, go for it. The point of a tournament is to see who makes the best list and is the best general. I'm not sure how that's possible when you're banning people for bringing lists that are "too good."

Same reason competitive fighting games often ban certain characters, so that it isn't wholly unbalanced.

Edit: We've always had armies that are stronger than others, but if you get a single list continually winning not matter the skill of the players, you'll probably see something happen.

And you'll find the reason that people like competition is because competition is fun. Having no chance at winning is neither fun, enjoyable, or worth your time. Same with having no chance at losing IMO.

I can see a tournamnet bring players comes together and meet and also meet and fight new people. Ok so when 10 eldars players brings the same list ONE guy of those must have done a really good list? Right...

Gamgee wrote:
If it's as broken as it looks. Yep. Never playing an Eldar player again until they fix it. How entertaining will it be never using them in any games if no one wants to play with you?

What if the Eldar player has built a list that doesn't have scatter bike spam or any D weapons?

If the Eldar codex really is too strong (like let's say 3-4 tournaments in a row you see a top 10 that's 90% full Eldar armies) it might get banned, entirely or partially. Tournaments thrive on attendance, and having a single army dominate so much is bad for business.

If the new eldar codex is counterable in the competitive environment (which it probably will be, tournament players are a crafty lot) then most TOs probwbly won't give a damn whether it wrecks casual games or not.

 Wise Guy Sam wrote:

Gamgee wrote:
If it's as broken as it looks. Yep. Never playing an Eldar player again until they fix it. How entertaining will it be never using them in any games if no one wants to play with you?

What if the Eldar player has built a list that doesn't have scatter bike spam or any D weapons?

I echo this statement to all, PLEASE before you decide to back out of a game because the opponent is playing eldar have a look at their army, it isn't fair to have to play a different codex [SPOILER](or ignore half the options in the book but this is ireelevant[\SPOILER] simply because the army you've been playing suddenly got an unneeded power boost.

 hiveof_chimera wrote:

 Wise Guy Sam wrote:

Gamgee wrote:
If it's as broken as it looks. Yep. Never playing an Eldar player again until they fix it. How entertaining will it be never using them in any games if no one wants to play with you?

What if the Eldar player has built a list that doesn't have scatter bike spam or any D weapons?

I echo this statement to all, PLEASE before you decide to back out of a game because the opponent is playing eldar have a look at their army, it isn't fair to have to play a different codex [SPOILER](or ignore half the options in the book but this is ireelevant[\SPOILER] simply because the army you've been playing suddenly got an unneeded power boost.

Actually that is completely relevant, it IS the entire reason people are saying no games outside of tournies w/ Eldar. In a tourny it is a free-for-all; outside of it it ISN'T FAIR HALF THE OPTIONS IN A BOOK KICK OTHER ARMIES ASS (unless the other party is entirely fine with it for some reason), this entire codex is seriously going to bring up the whole "no one wants to play me, why?" debacle for a while. Even afterwards depending how good the codex actually is, we might see entire armies shelved or hell proxied as Eldar troops.

 Toofast wrote:

 Q0rbin wrote:
Of course I know that in tournaments but I mean a local play. And in tournamnets I have played you have been banned for fielding such an army and autolose.

So then what is the point of having a tournament? I thought we were past elementary school gym class rules where the scoreboard is turned off and we play for "fun". If you want to play for fun, go for it. The point of a tournament is to see who makes the best list and is the best general. I'm not sure how that's possible when you're banning people for bringing lists that are "too good."

All tournaments are run on House Rules - none of them use ALL the RAW - army composition is just another element that they can pick and choose from and they do.

If you had listened to Reecius they mentioned that they would need to modify ELDAR not actually remove their ranged D ban.

Good try though.

So is my ten man jetbike squad (including carefully converted warlock) with 3 shuriken cannons, that I have owned for years, still acceptable? I have no desire to convert all of them to cannons. They are dangerous enough already with my tactics.

 Hive City Dweller wrote:

 SharkoutofWata wrote:

 Hive City Dweller wrote:
Forgive my lack of reading if this was mentioned, but wouldn't a great counter to jetbike spam be Onager spam with icarus array?

What exactly is an Icarus array going to do to Jetbikes? Skyfire snapshots at at anything but Flyers, FMCs and Skimmers. Jetbikes are none of those.

True, they are not fliers, but with the Ad Mech rules Onagers can snap fire at BS of 2. That's not insignificant.

I brought up the Skyfire not as a counter to jetbikes, but to point out a great feature of the Onager. I don't think you need to fear people whose list and strategy depends only on jetbikes. It's decent players, who take advantage of jetbikes, and mix it up with other stuff.

Model with Icarus Array is 130 points and gives you at 48", all with Skyfire:
- 1 @ S7 Ap2
- 5 @ S6 Ap4 with Ignores Cover
- 2 @ S7 Ap4 with Interceptor and Twinlink
Plus at 36":
- 3 @ S4 Ap6 with Cognis
- Crappy mobility, but its crab-legs essentially ignore terrain.

BS is as high as 7 with buff. AV12, 4HP, and 4++ when grouped in 3s.

For 135 points, you can have 5 Windrider Jetbikes which give you 36" fire:
- 20 @ S6 Ap6
- Battle Focus -- they are JSJ
- Super duper mobility

Both have force org charts that essentially let you spam them. So, in a shooting match, which would you prefer?

Well, you could mathhammer it all out, but I think it's a silly question, because I don't think either army would be terribly effective. The better question is, which would be more useful in an army? I don't have the answer, but I certainly don't think the Onager is horribly inferior in value. The Onager with the Icarus Array is just so flexible in its firepower, and relatively cheap. It would sure be a lot better at taking out Helldrakes

Hang on a sec... I've seen no rumours thus far regarding Aspect Warriors. Does this mean that this codex only includes Guardians, Vehicles and the like and that there'll be a separate codex for Aspect Warriors? Please tell me that's not true...

Bikes have good chances getting skyfire and with mysterious objectives btw.

 monkeypuzzle wrote:
So is my ten man jetbike squad (including carefully converted warlock) with 3 shuriken cannons, that I have owned for years, still acceptable? I have no desire to convert all of them to cannons. They are dangerous enough already with my tactics.

Yeah. Shuriken Cannons haven't changed at all -- they still have Bladestorm. I would mix them up, but broadly speaking, I think I prefer Shuriken Cannons over Scatter Lasers anyhow -- especially on units with battle focus.

 Toofast wrote:
So then what is the point of having a tournament? I thought we were past elementary school gym class rules where the scoreboard is turned off and we play for "fun". If you want to play for fun, go for it. The point of a tournament is to see who makes the best list and is the best general. I'm not sure how that's possible when you're banning people for bringing lists that are "too good."

A list that is too good based entirely on inherent rule interactions, rather than composition or execution removes the human element from the tournament and homogenizes the metagame. Much better games than 40k understand that well and do not hesitate to change/ban metagame warping elements in competitive sanctioned play.

 The Shadow wrote:
Hang on a sec... I've seen no rumours thus far regarding Aspect Warriors. Does this mean that this codex only includes Guardians, Vehicles and the like and that there'll be a separate codex for Aspect Warriors? Please tell me that's not true...

Of course there are Aspect Warriors in the new codex, don't be silly. Just check the Craftworld Host detachment, it lists all the aspects in it, including various formations.

News on any changes on them is just low because all we have so far is the White Dwarf information, nothing from the codex itself yet.

 Toofast wrote:


So then what is the point of having a tournament?

To play more than one game in a day. On a normal weekend day of gaming I can get in one game. In an RTT I get three.

Yep, it is much easier for me to play for three guaranteed games in one day than to try and schedule 3 games during the week or weekend.

 The Shadow wrote:
Hang on a sec... I've seen no rumours thus far regarding Aspect Warriors. Does this mean that this codex only includes Guardians, Vehicles and the like and that there'll be a separate codex for Aspect Warriors? Please tell me that's not true...

The rumors in this thread are largely inspired by the current issue of White Dwarf, since there are some bits of information to use as a platform for speculation. Other than where Aspect Warriors fit into the Eldar Detachment scheme, there is nothing about them in the issue. It's all about that D.

 Toofast wrote:

 Q0rbin wrote:
Of course I know that in tournaments but I mean a local play. And in tournamnets I have played you have been banned for fielding such an army and autolose.

So then what is the point of having a tournament? I thought we were past elementary school gym class rules where the scoreboard is turned off and we play for "fun". If you want to play for fun, go for it. The point of a tournament is to see who makes the best list and is the best general. I'm not sure how that's possible when you're banning people for bringing lists that are "too good."

Wow... So hardcore! I bet you have a rage boner the whole time you play man dollies until your opponent quits! takes tons of effort and skill finding the best of the best when the decks loaded doesn't it?

It's like bragging that you raced a marathon distance faster then you opponents except they ran and you drove your car. Sounds EXCITING!

I have a strong feeling that the wraith knight weapons will always be strength D and anything smaller will have a chance of strength D on a 6, would this still be broken or acceptable? I haven't played in a while and have never played a game with str D weapons in it. Also we don't know what's happening with different craft worlds, maybe ianden will be the only craft world that can take more than one unit of wraith guard and is limited somewhere else, maybe saim-Hann is the only craft world that can take up all of its troops with jetbikes, other craft worlds might be limited to one squad per guardian squad.

 Mantle wrote:
I have a strong feeling that the wraith knight weapons will always be strength D and anything smaller will have a chance of strength D on a 6, would this still be broken or acceptable? I haven't played in a while and have never played a game with str D weapons in it. Also we don't know what's happening with different craft worlds, maybe ianden will be the only craft world that can take more than one unit of wraith guard and is limited somewhere else, maybe saim-Hann is the only craft world that can take up all of its troops with jetbikes, other craft worlds might be limited to one squad per guardian squad.

I myself think its more likely its either D on a 6 or that you can combine to D like old Fire Prisms or Shadow Sepectres. True it could be straight up D, but that seems like a fantastically stupid move and goes with the sky is falling sayings. I just don't realistically see it happening.

 Mantle wrote:
I have a strong feeling that the wraith knight weapons will always be strength D and anything smaller will have a chance of strength D on a 6, would this still be broken or acceptable? I haven't played in a while and have never played a game with str D weapons in it. Also we don't know what's happening with different craft worlds, maybe ianden will be the only craft world that can take more than one unit of wraith guard and is limited somewhere else, maybe saim-Hann is the only craft world that can take up all of its troops with jetbikes, other craft worlds might be limited to one squad per guardian squad.

It's still pretty over the top, I mean let's say you have 5 wraith guard, shooting at literally any model, if you get one 6 on 5 dice, the models gone (right?). I don't know exactly what the odds are of at least one six on 5 dice but it isn't really bad odds to get rid of any model (literally anything, from a grot to a baneblade...)

I don't know, I just want plastic Rangers..... Someday it might happen....

I reckon a decent balance would be. 240 for naked Wraithknight. Then pay for weapons, the cannons costing 50 each. All the other weapons priced suitably as well

So 340 for the d shooting knight?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or something in the range of the imperial knight (370-375)...

All these people planning on refusing to play against Eldar now- what happened to communicating with people?

Said Eldar player has a list that completely outmatches you, what's the harm in just saying "your list outclasses mine by quite a bit, do you mind toning your list down?"

I know not everyone plays with a tourney list all the time and a little communication can go a long ways.

personally I don't get to play 40k enough that i refuse games and losing at toy soldiers is still better than being at work or something like that.

Play on Eldar players.

You kidding? Wraithknights are worth like 300pts as is, and adding str d and making them gargantuan creatures is a massive buff. They'd probably easily be worth 500pts.

 DarkLink wrote:
You kidding? Wraithknights are worth like 300pts as is, and adding str d and making them gargantuan creatures is a massive buff. They'd probably easily be worth 500pts.

And the rest. Compared to a Heirodule, the new wraithknight should be 600-650 lol!

BeeCee wrote:
All these people planning on refusing to play against Eldar now- what happened to communicating with people?

Said Eldar player has a list that completely outmatches you, what's the harm in just saying "your list outclasses mine by quite a bit, do you mind toning your list down?"

I know not everyone plays with a tourney list all the time and a little communication can go a long ways.

personally I don't get to play 40k enough that i refuse games and losing at toy soldiers is still better than being at work or something like that.

Play on Eldar players.

Seriously, if you're having to ask people to tone their lists down because otherwise you haven't got a chance, something is seriously wrong with the game. That's the point here. Yes you can ask them to play an easier list, but you shouldn't have to.