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 pretre wrote:


Also, misprint/errata in the WD for the jetbike entry and/or the D is actually not what we think it is.

If so, whoever writes the WD should lose their job just based on the amount of bad blood they've already created on this forum.

Is D really that bad if it didn't have AP2/1?

What if the regular Wraith-cannons only had AP3, or the D-scythes** were only AP5?

** and lets not kid ourselves, "D"-scythes WILL be strD is the distort rule is indeed replaced.
------------------
Clearly it would still be bad news for vehicles, but against non-vehicle models it would essentially be worse/the same as now

 Asmodas wrote:

 pretre wrote:


Also, misprint/errata in the WD for the jetbike entry and/or the D is actually not what we think it is.

If so, whoever writes the WD should lose their job just based on the amount of bad blood they've already created on this forum.

You're funny.

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Dawn_of_Eldar

This is strangely applicable to the tabletop game...

Right, it's somewhat impossible to follow along this thread considering how fast it's moving but I'm curious:

Has it been confirmed? Is the 160 S6 shots a thing? Was the codex already leaked?

 TheDraconicLord wrote:
Right, it's somewhat impossible to follow along this thread considering how fast it's moving but I'm curious:

Has it been confirmed? Is the 160 S6 shots a thing? Was the codex already leaked?

It has been confirmed via this weeks WD. Since ANY bike can buy a Scatter laser, you could have a 10-man unit for 270pts that puts out 40 S6 shots. Field 4 units like that for 1080pts to get 160 shots.

This is, however, a "pay-to-win" scenario. Most players will probably field units of 5, with maybe 1 unit at 8-10 bikes. I am personally planning to have at least 2 bikes per unit with no upgrade to keep the unit cheaper and have affordable casualties

-

 Galef wrote:
Is D really that bad if it didn't have AP2/1?

What if the regular Wraith-cannons only had AP3, or the D-scythes** were only AP5?

** and lets not kid ourselves, "D"-scythes WILL be strD is the distort rule is indeed replaced.
------------------
Clearly it would still be bad news for vehicles, but against non-vehicle models it would essentially be worse/the same as now

The reason why D is bad is because a roll of a 6 would instakill absolutely ANYTHING up to an Imperial Knight, and has the potential to one-shot even stompas.

I guess it wouldn't be so bad if Eldar weren't so otherwise good at annihilating infantry. Their basic troops either rend (or spam strength 6 shots, as we see), and there's no point taking heavy armor against an opponent who can fling Strength D up to 36'' away, or drop strength D next to you via webway portal, or shoot strength D down at you from the skies.

I don't think the sky is falling it's just frustrating to see a faction that already has it all get even more toys, while Orks can't even rock a personal invuln save. If Ghazghkull had a Strength D klaw and gave every boy on the table a 5+ invuln on a waagh, and Vect still existed and his unit could show up at any point on your opponent's turn and immediately fire, sure.

 Galef wrote:

 TheDraconicLord wrote:
Right, it's somewhat impossible to follow along this thread considering how fast it's moving but I'm curious:

Has it been confirmed? Is the 160 S6 shots a thing? Was the codex already leaked?

It has been confirmed via this weeks WD. Since ANY bike can buy a Scatter laser, you could have a 10-man unit for 270pts that puts out 40 S6 shots. Field 4 units like that for 1080pts to get 160 shots.

This is, however, a "pay-to-win" scenario. Most players will probably field units of 5, with maybe 1 unit at 8-10 bikes. I am personally planning to have at least 2 bikes per unit with no upgrade to keep the unit cheaper and have affordable casualties

-

Ah, I see! Thank you!

I am Hoping that the eldar distortion weapons went back to wounding on a 2+ and glance on a 2-4, pen on a 5+.

All they would need to say is that the weapons count as strD, but do not roll on the chart.

I see why they did what they did with eldar and the D rule change, the eldar and Necron codecies have always had rules to counter one another as part of their fluff. They wanted the eldar to be able to shut down reanimation protocols, so gave them D weapons. They should have made the old distort rule remove from play on a to wound roll of 6.

It would have done what they wanted, and wouldn't anihilate every other army in he crossfire. I am thinking they gave them D strength weapons because it would allow eternal warrior space marines a chance to survive the shot. Sheer lack of understanding can be the only way they didn't see how bad an idea this was.

Oh well, back to waiting for the corsairs update...

I've been thinking: having a scatter on every bike isn't broken in and of itsef - it's the fact that 10 pts is criminaly cheap for the enormous boost in effectiveness. If scatters were say 20-25 pts, it'd be fine, really.

Scatter Lasers should be 30 points, minimum.

I'm willing to wait and read the codex before I bury it in my backyard, but I am getting my shovel ready.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Scatter Lasers should be 30 points, minimum.

I'm betting 20 would have been OK.

Or limit them to 1 per unit or even 1 per 5 models at 10 points.

1 per unit would've been nice.

With the change, cannons should have been 20. Scatters 30.

 kronk wrote:
I'm willing to wait and read the codex before I bury it in my backyard, but I am getting my shovel ready.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Scatter Lasers should be 30 points, minimum.

I'm betting 20 would have been OK.

If Skitarii have to pay 30 points for a Plasma Caliver, then Eldar can pay 30 points, minimum, on Troop slot Jetbikes.

30 points for the Plasma Caliver was too much, though. It should have been 15.

Doesn't change my point.

30 point Scatter Lasers for Eldar!

 Kanluwen wrote:
Doesn't change my point.

30 point Scatter Lasers for Eldar!

15 point Caliver whats its for Skitarrrii!

Anywho, if nothing else, I'm looking forward to a fluffy, all-bike, Iyanden Army.

 kronk wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Doesn't change my point.

30 point Scatter Lasers for Eldar!

15 point Caliver whats its for Skitarrrii!

Anywho, if nothing else, I'm looking forward to a fluffy, all-bike, Iyanden Army.

Alongside all the fluffy all-bike Ulthwe, Alaitoc, and Biel-Tan armies.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Scatter Lasers should be 30 points, minimum.

LOL! Really!? I am glad you don't write/balance army books...

Seriously people, Eldar as a whole are not OP-not currently and without the entire codex to review, it is impossible to say so about the future codex. Saying Eldar are OP is like saying "since some cats are fluffy therefore all cats are fluffy." In short, it is a logical fallacy taking what may be true of one small portion of something and applying it to the whole. At best, it can only be said a few aspects of the current Eldar codex are OP but it is not possible to say Eldar are OP as a whole...At least not possible to say it and be correct.

-Saying OH NOES, Eldar are even MOAR OP now than before/evar is an overreaction.
-Saying I will rage quit now is an overreaction.
-Saying I will never play as or against Eldar now is an overreaction.

Indeed, saying any of these things indicates either trolling or illogical thinking, both of which bring the hobby down.

So yeah, dead horse is sufficiently dead, get over how strong scatter lasers on bikes and D weapons galore appear to be, wait until the codex drops/we get more info and then react accordingly. This means, either have some sort of comp/understanding set up with potential fiends/players or hope/encourage TOs to do so just like how ITC format strives to make for a fair and fun playing field.

Personally, I don't think Scatter/Shiruken on bikes are that big of a deal and expect time to prove me right. As far as D weapons galore, that I am very apprehensive about but that may be ok in the end. It would be better if they just took out the "6" result from the Destroyer table entirely and made it so that it was just 1-2 nothing happens, 3-6 becomes the current 2-5 result.

 mortetvie wrote:
Personally, I don't think Scatter/Shiruken on bikes are that big of a deal and expect time to prove me right.

Nickel bet that you're wrong.

 pretre wrote:

 mortetvie wrote:
Personally, I don't think Scatter/Shiruken on bikes are that big of a deal and expect time to prove me right.

Nickel bet that you're wrong.

This guy would never admit he was wrong. Eldar could get Str D on every single one of their models for free and he would be here arguing "they aren't OP guys! Time will prove me right! Trust me!"

Iyanden player here...no plans for bikes on my end, except Harlie skyweavers.

 pretre wrote:

 mortetvie wrote:
Personally, I don't think Scatter/Shiruken on bikes are that big of a deal and expect time to prove me right.

Nickel bet that you're wrong.

You are on =P. Let it be officially noted that Petre and I have made a bet for a nickel that if Eldar bikes with all Scatter/Shiruken is a big deal, I will pay him one nickel while if it ends up not being a big deal, he will pay me a nickel. Big deal referring to being overpowered in practice and/or dominating the meta.

And Mr. Stone, I have been wrong and am willing to admit where I was wrong. quit trolling and espousing things you can't know are true. Indeed, your comment only proves you are either illiterate or didn't read my post above about D weapons.

 pretre wrote:

 mortetvie wrote:
Personally, I don't think Scatter/Shiruken on bikes are that big of a deal and expect time to prove me right.

Nickel bet that you're wrong.

Loser has to listen to a Nickleback album, start to finish.

 mortetvie wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 mortetvie wrote:
Personally, I don't think Scatter/Shiruken on bikes are that big of a deal and expect time to prove me right.

Nickel bet that you're wrong.

You are on =P. Let it be officially noted that Petre and I have made a bet for a nickel that if Eldar bikes with all Scatter/Shiruken is a big deal, I will pay him one nickel while if it ends up not being a big deal, he will pay me a nickel. Big deal referring to being overpowered in practice and/or dominating the meta.

So what is the criteria for 'being overpowered in practice and dominating the meta"? You clearly have a very different threshold for what you consider OP than the majority of people here. So how do you arbitrate what is and what isn't overpowered with your biased threshold? Gotta lay down some guidelines first...

 kronk wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 mortetvie wrote:
Personally, I don't think Scatter/Shiruken on bikes are that big of a deal and expect time to prove me right.

Nickel bet that you're wrong.

Loser has to listen to a Nickleback album, start to finish.

I think I'd pay a thousand nickels to never have to hear nickelback ever again ;p

Edit: and I'm with mortetvie on the jetbikes not being as big of a deal as you think. Im much more concerned about an entire army of STR D shooters.

Well every codex that has come out recently has been remarkably well balanced surprisingly even the Necrons though they are very very good. So I hope this ranged OMG everything has giant D all over the place is not true.

Have we any word on what rangers are like? I so badly want to field mine once without feeling like I'm just throwing points away.

 pretre wrote:

 mortetvie wrote:
Personally, I don't think Scatter/Shiruken on bikes are that big of a deal and expect time to prove me right.

Nickel bet that you're wrong.

Yea, I find it annoying he keeps toiling on about others saying eldar are OP. Nobody is saying eldar are OP, what they are upset about is ludicrously under cost bikes with heavy weapons available on every model.

Imagine space marines having access to 10 pt heavy flamers or melta guns on every model in the unit.

It just creates for a unit that is WAY to efficient when compared to every other armies compulsories.

At any rate I expect time to make him embarrassed for white knighting poor game design because it's "his" army.

@Mr. Stone:

-First, you misquoted me, I said and/or which is a big distinction.

-Second of all, any dictionary definition of "overpowered" will suffice, as in it defeats many other things with superior strength, especially in relation to relative points values. Now I am not talking about equal points of jetbikes with scatter lasers versus equal points of Ork boyz or howling banshees but in a realistic game play setting.

-Third of all, by dominating the meta, I mean Jetbikes with max heavy weapons dominating/appearing in virtually every Eldar list much like how Serpents/Wraithknights currently do.


@Corsair:

First, to ignore that people have said Eldar are OP several times throughout this thread and attack me for addressing those comments is like Obama pretending Iran doesn't want to make nukes with their nuclear program... Yes, people have been saying all of the things I said above, those were literally direct quotes more or less from existing comments in this thread.

Second, it is nothing short of a personal attack to say I am just white knighting poor game design because Eldar are my army... Way to Ad Hominem sir!

Yes, I play Eldar, and have done so since 2nd. I have seen and experienced them at their highest and lowest and played with their strongest and weakest units/builds. I have also played with any and every other army GW has ever made (and actually either own or owned every army GW ever made except for the recent Skitarii). So to say I am just white knighting Eldar because I am an Eldar fanboy is wrong. My favorite army is actually Tyranids/Thousand Sons and Iyanden in that order but that is besides the point.

The point is, I maintain that in my experience, I don't think bikes with all heavy weapons will be that big of a deal and I expect time to prove me right. if I am wrong, I'll have no problem going oops I was wrong...

As far as poor game design, that remains to be seen.