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Tsilber wrote:
Oh no jetbike eldar! Have your one armed, walking with a limp, guardsmen walk over and poke em with a pillow in H2H...

So Eldar getting a new codex seems cool. I think I read through the ranting that scatter lasers lost target lot. Did wave serpent shields get nerfed in any way?

Nothing about Serpent Shield as of yet. I think they are deflecting people's attention away from Serpents with the new Scatriders.....

Its been two days and you scrubs are still wetting your selves over the jet bikes.
people have given plenty reasonable counters

where are you going to hide 40+ jet bikes.
Do you know whats going to happen if they even get touched by a moderate close combat unit, and they will get charged you cant put 40 bikes in place where they aren't going to get charged their's not enough room on the table.

Currently you can get a war walker with two scatter lasers, fleet and battle focus for 70pts or two sc for 60pts
you can't turbo boost but if you do that you cant fire.

So you paying (3-8) pts more per gun but you get a much more durable unit that is also fearless.
are war walkers currently tearing up the meta?

I'm not denying that their good units but their not going to ruin the tournament scene single single-handedly.

I think you should wait till you have played a few games before you throw your toys out the pram.

I see bike spam as becoming a probelm. It's a good thing the people I play with tend to be the sort of people who play for enjoyment, not people who care about winning and nothing else, even if it means alienating people and making the game enjoyable.

Sunhero wrote:
Its been two days and you scrubs are still wetting your selves over the jet bikes.

This is a fine example of how to not get taken seriously regardless of what else you post (also you're on my ignore list, just letting you know so you don't talk to air and look foolish).

As for the new Eldar. Right now I want to see how much D-Scythe Wraithguard cost. Going from Str 4 to Str D is a huge difference, especially when consider how suicidal assaulting such as squad would be (5D3 Str D hits).

Sunhero wrote:
Its been two days and you scrubs are still wetting your selves over the jet bikes.
people have given plenty reasonable counters

where are you going to hide 40+ jet bikes.
Do you know whats going to happen if they even get touched by a moderate close combat unit, and they will get charged you cant put 40 bikes in place where they aren't going to get charged their's not enough room on the table.

Currently you can get a war walker with two scatter lasers, fleet and battle focus for 70pts or two sc for 60pts
you can't turbo boost but if you do that you cant fire.

So you paying (3-8) pts more per gun but you get a much more durable unit that is also fearless.
are war walkers currently tearing up the meta?

I'm not denying that their good units but their not going to ruin the tournament scene single single-handedly.

I think you should wait till you have played a few games before you throw your toys out the pram.

War walkers are amazing, actually, and it's a testament to how ridiculous the Eldar codex was that there were better options. But consider now, by your own admission, how excellent the 70 point war walker is. The windrider version costs 27 points.

I'm not sure what more I need to say, that's a huge price difference, that's a lot more firepower per point. You'll have trouble even arguing they're more survivable, 1 AV10 2 HP w/ 5+ save vs. nearly 3 T4 w/ 3+ save. The objective secured, 36 inch turboboost is just a bonus.

edit: nvm!

 SilverDevilfish wrote:

Sunhero wrote:
Its been two days and you scrubs are still wetting your selves over the jet bikes.

This is a fine example of how to not get taken seriously regardless of what else you post (also you're on my ignore list, just letting you know so you don't talk to air and look foolish).

I took him seriously, because he is right. Especially about warwalkers. For nearly the same price you get an outflanking platform with the same firepower that is quite a bit harder to kill than a guardian jetbike. And it has an invul save.

 Swabby wrote:

 SilverDevilfish wrote:

Sunhero wrote:
Its been two days and you scrubs are still wetting your selves over the jet bikes.

This is a fine example of how to not get taken seriously regardless of what else you post (also you're on my ignore list, just letting you know so you don't talk to air and look foolish).

I took him seriously, because he is right. Especially about warwalkers. For nearly the same price you get an outflanking platform with the same firepower that is quite a bit harder to kill than a guardian jetbike. And it has an invul save.

If you play 1750 or 1850 you have no need to choose. You can easily take both. Throw in D-Cannon weapon batteries and a wraithknight to cover your bases.

The point is you can spam scatter lasers in the current codex, for not much more points on far more durable units.

Sunhero wrote:
Its been two days and you scrubs are still wetting your selves over the jet bikes.
people have given plenty reasonable counters

This has always been my favorite part of the 40k hobby- watching people personally insult others when they have complaints about the game. I'm not sure what exactly it is about 40k that really brings this behavior out, but it's always so classic.

Only this time the scatter lasers are faster, more maneuverable (the jetbike move is faster than Battle-Focus), and objective secured. Outflank means little when the jetbikes can spend a turn to boost 36" to the other side of the board at a whim.

Don't get me wrong. Warwalkers are amazing, but these new jetbikes would not know what balance was even if it hit them in the face with a flyrant.

Personally I would rather deal with these jetbikes than something that that is going to come in on a side of the board randomly with a similar amount of firepower.

Make them jink and all of the sudden all those shots are quite a bit less intimidating.

Why would they jink when they have 3+ armour?

AP1, 2 and 3 weapons are kind of a thing now.

So the unit that is probably closest to the 28 pt. scatter laser armed Eldar jetbike is the 22 pt. Necron Tomb Blade upgraded with a particle beamer and shield vane.

They have similar statlines (the tomb blade has better strength, toughness, and leadership, but worse initiative)
The particle beamer is 24" S6 AP- blast vs the scatter laser at 36" S6 AP6 Heavy 4.
The Tomb blade also has reanimation protocols, which is 4+ in a Decurian list.
The Eldar jetbike has the additional Turbo boost range or assault move.

So for 6 more points you gain additional mobility, you have greater range for shooting, you switch out blast for 4 shots (I call it a pass), and you're far less survivable.

I don't play tournaments so I don't know, but has Tomb Blade spam been breaking the tournament scene?

 Unix wrote:
So the unit that is probably closest to the 28 pt. scatter laser armed Eldar jetbike is the 22 pt. Necron Tomb Blade upgraded with a particle beamer and shield vane.

They have similar statlines (the tomb blade has better strength, toughness, and leadership, but worse initiative)
The particle beamer is 24" S6 AP- blast vs the scatter laser at 36" S6 AP6 Heavy 4.
The Tomb blade also has reanimation protocols, which is 4+ in a Decurian list.
The Eldar jetbike has the additional Turbo boost range or assault move.

So for 6 more points you gain additional mobility, you have greater range for shooting, you switch out blast for 4 shots (I call it a pass), and you're far less survivable.

I don't play tournaments so I don't know, but has Tomb Blade spam been breaking the tournament scene?

I know that people have been trying to get their hands on Tomb Blades but boxes are sold out.

I'd definitely give Eldar the upper hand on weapon statline. Small blast hits 3 models at best (0 models a lot of the time) whereas 4 S6 shots will give you nearly 3 average hits. The other big thing there is the number of hits they can put on vehicles, monstrous creatures or flyers/FMCs. A squad of 10 bikes easily wrecks an AV12 vehicle from the front, while the same number of tomb blades will struggle to kill AV10 from the rear.
The extra range and maneuverability is big because it means that to be in firing range Tomb Blades are within danger range - within rapid fire range or even assault range of fast units. Eldar on the other hand can shoot and then jet away, staying out of harm. It also makes them literally the perfect objective grabbers.

With all of your rebuttals, it's almost like Windriders should be more expensive than Tomb Blades.

Oh, wait. They are. 25% more expensive.

I agree the scatter laser is better, but you're forgetting the one advantage of blast weapons is the built in sniping. Since the blast can be placed on any visible model in the unit and models are removed from under the blast first you can target special/heavy weapons or unit leaders.

You're right, the Eldar jetbike is better, but it also costs 27% more points and I would argue that it's about 27% better. I think the problem isn't that the Eldar jetbike is ridiculously broken, but rather that GW is undervaluing jetbikes as a whole, much like they overvalue multiple wounds.

You're thinking barrage...

no they aren't? it's not a barrage, it's a blast. you still remove casualties from the closest model to the firer.

edit: ninja'd!

I would argue they are a lot more than 27% more effective. Jsj, obsec, rate of fire, save, firing after jink, etc.

Oops. There's always some subtle changes between editions that I miss.

 Unix wrote:
I agree the scatter laser is better, but you're forgetting the one advantage of blast weapons is the built in sniping. Since the blast can be placed on any visible model in the unit and models are removed from under the blast first you can target special/heavy weapons or unit leaders.

You're right, the Eldar jetbike is better, but it also costs 27% more points and I would argue that it's about 27% better. I think the problem isn't that the Eldar jetbike is ridiculously broken, but rather that GW is undervaluing jetbikes as a whole, much like they overvalue multiple wounds.

I was actually wondering why people didn't complain this much about Tomb Blades. Now, I'm not defending Eldar, nor do I think the Scatriders will be balanced, but Tomb Blades are almost just as bad. The Particle Beamers are the same statline as a Shurikan Cannon, but in the form of a blast, and with no pseudo rending. (It's AP5, by the way, not AP-). And any model may take one for a measly 2 points each. Plus, with another upgrade, they can be given Ignores Cover.

That being said, the weapon options for the Windriders are still better (3 shots with pseudo rending, or 4 shots with long range), but its still the fact that Tomb Blades are almost just as bad, and are more durable. They didn't get any amount of complaining, at least to this measure.

Trasvi wrote:

I know that people have been trying to get their hands on Tomb Blades but boxes are sold out.

I'd definitely give Eldar the upper hand on weapon statline. Small blast hits 3 models at best (0 models a lot of the time) whereas 4 S6 shots will give you nearly 3 average hits. The other big thing there is the number of hits they can put on vehicles, monstrous creatures or flyers/FMCs. A squad of 10 bikes easily wrecks an AV12 vehicle from the front, while the same number of tomb blades will struggle to kill AV10 from the rear.
The extra range and maneuverability is big because it means that to be in firing range Tomb Blades are within danger range - within rapid fire range or even assault range of fast units. Eldar on the other hand can shoot and then jet away, staying out of harm. It also makes them literally the perfect objective grabbers.

They came back in (the stores, at least). At my store, someone came in and picked up a whole bunch, and I grabbed 2 off the shelf. Impulse buy, lol.

For 65 points, DE Venom gets 12 Poison shots at range 36".

At 54 points, Eldar gets 6 Str6 pseudo-Rending at range 24".

Not that big a difference IMHO.

 krodarklorr wrote:

That being said, the weapon options for the Windriders are still better (3 shots with pseudo rending, or 4 shots with long range), but its still the fact that Tomb Blades are almost just as bad, and are more durable. They didn't get any amount of complaining, at least to this measure.

Tomb blades are awesome! They even have nice models.

My biggest grump with the whole idea of windrider spam is that they are so NOT durable, and it all just sounds like a quick way for a couple of drop pods to come in and take out three times their points in units. And/or leave the survivors in jink. U

And venoms are comparatively slow, cant be taken in as large numbers, and are at greater risk of dying from most weapons. And they're considered one the best Dark Eldar units.

Re tomb blades - people still think they're great, but IMO they don't play in to the style of the Necron list as much: people are focussed on Wraith Spam, Scarab farms or unkillable warrior blobs instead.

I'm not going to claim the sky is falling just yet... but these bikes seem pretty awesome, especially when you start combining them with the psychic buffs that Eldar have easy access to.

 KiloFiX wrote:
For 65 points, DE Venom gets 12 Poison shots at range 36".

At 54 points, Eldar gets 6 Str6 pseudo-Rending at range 24".

Not that big a difference IMHO.

That's because no one is worried about the SC. 8 s6 at 36" is better than the pseudo rend.

Venoms can't hurt av either.

Me playing in my first 7th edition event at Adepticon:




Warhammer 40k 7th is a snowball and its rolling down a hill awfully fast these days...

 Accolade wrote:

Sunhero wrote:
Its been two days and you scrubs are still wetting your selves over the jet bikes.
people have given plenty reasonable counters

This has always been my favorite part of the 40k hobby- watching people personally insult others when they have complaints about the game. I'm not sure what exactly it is about 40k that really brings this behavior out, but it's always so classic.

I know. I really don't get why genuine complaints are just dismissed in this game.