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Relapse wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
2 Crimson Hunters 280

3 Squads of Dark Reapers 450

Wraithknight

Eldar Jet Bike Host

Autarch

Just keep everything off the board , Jetbikes , Dark Reapers in Reserve walk on start killing fliers.

You're not going to kill a Wraithknight in 1 turn.

I disagree. I'll match a Viper squadron of my DE carrying Trueborn with two splinter cannon added to the Venom's two. Five moving Vipers loaded like that can kick out 100 poison shots in a turn. Even if I have only three Venoms with Trueborn and warriors in the other two, they will still crack out more than enough to down even a six wound GC. This does not even bring into the equation the rest of my army.

2/3 hit, 1/6 wound, 1/3 get through armor, 2/3 get through fnp.

So roughly 2/81 chance per shot or 40 poison for one wound.

Relapse wrote:
I disagree. I'll match a Viper squadron of my DE carrying Trueborn with two splinter cannon added to the Venom's two. Five moving Vipers loaded like that can kick out 100 poison shots in a turn. Even if I have only three Venoms with Trueborn and warriors in the other two, they will still crack out more than enough to down even a six wound GC. This does not even bring into the equation the rest of my army.

You appear to have overlooked how the GC rules work. Poison only wounds them on sixes.

Your 100 BS4 poison shots would do 2.5 wounds. Bring double that and you still haven't killed it.

DJ3 wrote:

Relapse wrote:
I disagree. I'll match a Viper squadron of my DE carrying Trueborn with two splinter cannon added to the Venom's two. Five moving Vipers loaded like that can kick out 100 poison shots in a turn. Even if I have only three Venoms with Trueborn and warriors in the other two, they will still crack out more than enough to down even a six wound GC. This does not even bring into the equation the rest of my army.

You appear to have overlooked how the GC rules work. Poison only wounds them on sixes.

Your 100 BS4 poison shots would do 2.5 wounds. Bring double that and you still haven't killed it.

You have appeared to overlook the fact that I also mentioned the rest of my army would be on the table against a lone Wraithknight. His statement was that it could be on the table, alone and the rest of his army would just march on. On top of that, those are far from the only splinter weapons, or any type of weapon at all, in my DE army.

So he deploys on the table instead, not that big a deal.

Raesvelg wrote:
Sure, if you get lucky and plant them on a Skyfire Nexus they'll be downing any flyer in the game like clockwork, but that's not exactly something you can plan for, nor is it much of a change from the current situation.

Actually, this is how I see the entire new codex. All the very bad matchups with Eldar are still bad matchups, and the biggest trade is just wave serpents for jetbikes. The other stuff is only noise; Wraithguard will still kill the stuff they were killing and will still die to the things they were dying to; Wraithknights are still good at killing the things they were good at killing will still die to the units that killed them before.

Eldar were a strong codex before, and remain so. The people who claim that everyone is throwing away their armies and buying Eldar -- well, it's either hyperbole or GW is genius. Most people I know who are spendy are going to buy a box of jetbikes because we've been waiting 6 years for the model to come out, and that's about it. Our group of 6 regular gamers are all pretty serious collectors and collectively, we probably haven't gone one month in the last 10 years where we spent less than $3,000 at the hobby shop, yet nobody has gone out to order up 10 boxes of bikes, a half dozen wraithknights, or stockpiles of wraithguard. I don't even know if there's 10 boxes of bikes between all of us.

Naw wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
<--- just got an entirely mediocre new codex right before a couple brand new PowerBooks came out.

Sad days ahead for me as far as competitive games go. :(

I guess we BA players just need to adopt new tactics!! Ooh the imbaness of our codex. I'll smack them with my formations.

I'm actually really happy at where Blood Angels are today, and glad that I chose them at the end of last year to be the faction that I'm modelling (it's my 6th faction, though 3 of those are way outdated and no longer playable... including Eldar lol). It's not the most powerful army, and it doesn't have an answer to everything (without allies), but that's just fine with me. It's fun to play, highly unique, and has a variety of flexible tools that differ from vanilla marines, Wolves, and Grey Knights. And the models rock!

I will happily concede though, if it is your ONLY faction, your first faction, or you just want to get a good win ratio, Blood Angels are a poor choice. But it's not like everyone didn't know this going in.

Poison and instant death were the WKs greatest weaknesses, and they aren't anymore. So it won't die to the same stuff. Grav will still kill it though.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Talys wrote:

I'm also not really super crazy about the new War host (though time will tell, I guess), as the Guardian Hosts are quite restrictive (you MUST take x y z). If you go CAD, you again are limited to one WK.

Really? Restrictive?

The Windrider one is a copy-paste of the average meta Eldar army prior to the 6th edition codex.

Farseer on bike? Check.
Warlocks on bikes? Check.
Bikes? Check.
Vypers? Check.

It's not really that restrictive. It means you have to dust off some models you put on the shelf for the Wraithknight and Serpent bandwagon and actually use them again.

Funny, I've been playing competitively for 15 years and can count on one hand the number of opponents I've seen using vypers...

Please tell me Baharroth doesn't just have a normal power sword and normal Hawk exarch gun still...

Oh, and is Yriel still useless? I haven't seen anything on him yet.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Talys wrote:

I'm also not really super crazy about the new War host (though time will tell, I guess), as the Guardian Hosts are quite restrictive (you MUST take x y z). If you go CAD, you again are limited to one WK.

Really? Restrictive?

The Windrider one is a copy-paste of the average meta Eldar army prior to the 6th edition codex.

Farseer on bike? Check.
Warlocks on bikes? Check.
Bikes? Check.
Vypers? Check.

It's not really that restrictive. It means you have to dust off some models you put on the shelf for the Wraithknight and Serpent bandwagon and actually use them again.

For example:
- I don't like how you must take Vypers for ANY of the guardian hosts
- If you want to mix Guardians and Windriders, that's impossible without taking two separate guardian hosts and a bunch of stuff that possibly you don't want.
- The Wraithknight being Gargantuan Lord of War makes highly restrictive in the tournament scene (it will be restricted to 1 per army).
- The only way to get Wraithguard is to take Wraith Host; that forces you to take THREE units of Wraithguard, a wraithlord, a wraithknight (and a spiritseer): that's 965 points with no upgrades!
- If you want any Aspect Warriors, you need to take THREE units (though you can mix and match).
- The only way to take crimson hunters is to take THREE? I mean... why?

I'm not saying that these are "bad". It's just that because each option is a high point value, you'll get 1 guardian host, 1 regents, and 1-2 of the optionals. Like, if you want Wraithguard means you choose a guardian host -- you'd probably choose windrider -- and a hero. If you fill up the windriders, there are all your points. If not, you get to pick 1 other thing.

If your solution to the Wraith Knight is to always take a Squad of Grav Gun Centurion, IDKW to tell you cause that's some grade A bs.

Oh awesome all I have to do with my Necron's is ally in Space marines, YAY.

Oh Great all my Gauss wounds it on a 6+

Oh and their Warp Spiders have BS5 and wound everything in my army on a 2+.

Really? Restrictive?

The Windrider one is a copy-paste of the average meta Eldar army prior to the 6th edition codex.

Farseer on bike? Check.
Warlocks on bikes? Check.
Bikes? Check.
Vypers? Check.

It's not really that restrictive. It means you have to dust off some models you put on the shelf for the Wraithknight and Serpent bandwagon and actually use them again.

It is restrictive in the sense that people are claiming that an Eldar army can have 30 obj sec Scatterbikes, three WK, a psystar that casts on a 3+, and other goodies all at once.

If we go off the rumors, taking a Bikeseer, 3 Bikelocks, 3x3 Scatbikes, and a Viper is close to 600 points. Add three WK to the list and we are closing in on 1500. Even adding 13 more Scat Bikes to the mix and we have:

Bikeseer
3 Bikelocks
3 WKs
Arbitrary Viper
22 Scatbikes

at 1850

There isn't too much variety here. While some may claim that variety isn't needed in a list like this, let's be serious--if one can kill 26 MEQ and a Viper, the opponent is left with three (admittedly strong) units. That still doesn't win an objective game though. Moreover, a list like this will go down hard to Grav Bikes+two units of drop pod Cents.

Again--Eldar are going to be very strong. They are going to force people to readjust. They are also probably not the end of 40k.

Or you could just take a cad. The decurion style formations are meant to be restrictive.

Or you could just take a cad. The decurion style formations are meant to be restrictive.

You can take multiple LOW in a CAD? News to me.

LOL is you don't think this has just completely broken competitive play and is going to have a negative impact all around.

Okay in order to fix competitive play you have to:

1. Not allow LOW cause the shimmershield STD weapon Wraithknight is broken as well
2. Not Allow Wraithguard cause WWP Archon w/ Wraithguard w/ Scythes will annihilate
3. Not Allow Hemlock Fighters , a 185 point flying , Level 2 psyker w/ 2 D Weapons
4. Not Allow the Eldar Warhost selection
5. Not Allow D-Cannon Batteries

Okay now you have to deal with everyone who's going to

1. Be pissed off that you've basically told them what they can't play out of their basic army book
2. Have players who play against 30 Jetbikes w/ 120 Shots of ST6 be pissed off

It's a no win situation

You're flyrants are not going to stick around with 120 Shots of ST6 coming at them guided. I don't care. "Oh I'll get the jump on them. " No you won't they'll sit in reserve with a Autarch then come on board turn 2 and take everything you own off the board.

LOL is you don't think this has just completely broken competitive play and is going to have a negative impact all around.

Competitive play will be fine. It hurts casual play far more.

Most events have restrictions in play for Superheavies/LOW/Gargantuan anyway. Just ban them all. And it is my opinion that IK should fall into that category as well.

Ranged D flamers aren't a big deal due to the -1. Ranged D hurts some units, but it doesn't scare MSU all that much if built correctly. One actually has to get the expensive Wraithguard close as well--something that isn't easy.

The book is going to be strong. You will see it a ton on top tables. You already see the 6th ed version around, and Serpents/Daemon summoning Seer Council was already a PITA for most armies. It will be fine.

Hahahaha It's a Jump Gargantuan Creature, it can in fact move 12" and AFAIK still run. What do you mean they have trouble getting there? Expensive it's 295 points, that's not expensive.

It's a negative all around.

1. You piss off the Eldar players who want to play with the stuff that's in their book.
2. You piss off the players who do not want to play against it if you allow them their choices.

D-Scythes inflict D3 Wounds on a 3+ with Templates that are AP2 and simply erase vehicles from the board. Yeah that's totally balanced because it get's a -1.

Hahahaha It's a Jump Gargantuan Creature, it can in fact move 12" and AFAIK still run. What do you mean they have trouble getting there?

I was talking about the Wraithguard. I mentioned that I'd imagine Gargantuan/LOW/Superheavies will continue to face restrictions. Restrictions that are nothing new. How is this a problem?

It's a negative all around.

1. You piss off the Eldar players who want to play with the stuff that's in their book.
2. You piss off the players who do not want to play against it if you allow them their choices.

The 12" D shots on expensive 3+ save models? The D flamers that can't roll the 6? Those things aren't that bad. Mind you, I'd rather not have D in regular 40k, but it isn't that scary if you re-think how to build.

Yeah you're right , it's totally cool Eldar can take a Weapons Battery of D-Cannons that can have Preferred Enemy.

Wraithguard are not expensive considering they come standard with a ST D weapon.

The codex is incredibly OP, especially when you start getting into the crazy Ally Battle Brother situations.

Yeah you're right , it's totally cool Eldar can take a Weapons Battery of D-Cannons that can have Preferred Enemy.

Wraithguard are not expensive considering they come standard with a ST D weapon.

The codex is incredibly OP, especially when you start getting into the crazy Ally Battle Brother situations.

Make the unbeatable list then.

Yes, they are going to be the top dog. They are already debatably the top dog if we go off TOF metadata. They aren't so good that they auto-win or force everyone to use them. You can quote me on that if you'd like. MSU is the answer IMO.

 JGrand wrote:

Or you could just take a cad. The decurion style formations are meant to be restrictive.

You can take multiple LOW in a CAD? News to me.

Is it also news to you that you can take multiple CAD each with a LOW?

So any word on Yriel?

Is it also news to you that you can take multiple CAD each with a LOW?

I should clarify--I have been posting and almost exclusively post about competitive play. I don't care what kind of nonsense people run in basement hammer. In most events, players are restricted to two-three sources and no duplicates.

Coincidentally, you just furthered the point that an unbalanced game hurts the casual crowd more. TOs will come together to make reasonable restrictions. Friendly games are the wild west.

My vote in all of this is just to ban all Superheavies/Gargantuan creatures (including IKs). Solves most problems easily.

 JGrand wrote:

Make the unbeatable list then.

New Eldar are not unbeatable and some of the changes are good and necessary.
But GW got overboard and has shown more evidently than ever that there is no play-testing and no quality control involved.

Many people who are angry, simply wish for a quality game which GW can't deliver.

Yriel? Any news on poor old Yriel? I painted him so nicely!

 Darkseid wrote:

 JGrand wrote:

Make the unbeatable list then.

New Eldar are not unbeatable and some of the changes are good and necessary.
But GW got overboard and has shown more evidently than ever that there is no play-testing and no quality control involved.

Many people who are angry, simply wish for a quality game which GW can't deliver.

Can't or won't?

 JGrand wrote:
My initial reaction was that the book is going to be too good, but after a month or two, players will settle in.

-The WK is too good, but as others have mentioned, most events allow only one LOW.

-The bikes put out absurd firepower, but they are still MEQ that can jink. A contemporary competitive build already has to be able to take out bike MEQ equivalents (Scars, Tomb Blades), MEQ (mass drop Marines), and T5 MEQ with 3++ (Wraiths, TWC).

-Mass ranged D seems bad for the game, but it just forces a shift. Strength D scares big bad units and deathstars, which are currently some of the 40k easy mode crutches anyway (Plaguestar, Ad Lances, Flyrants). Go MSU and laugh at the overkill.

My advice, go MSU (if you haven't already). It is more fun, takes more skill, and will throw a wrench into some of these Eldar builds. Build with newdar in mind. Finally, be the change. That sounds silly in 40k, but if you don't like Jetbikes/WK/Ranged D, don't use it. Making something strange work in a competitive setting was way more impressive than cookie-cutter nonsense. It keeps the game fresh--especially in an edition with a ton of untapped variety.

You see, this is how you make a rational intelligent post. I agree wholeheartedly, it's posts like Mortetvie suggesting that anyone having issue with the confirmed imbalances needs to L2P that get thrown back at its origin.

That said, this book still gaks on all the previous 7th books aside from Necrons, which is a major source for peoples frustrations.

 JGrand wrote:

Is it also news to you that you can take multiple CAD each with a LOW?

I should clarify--I have been posting and almost exclusively post about competitive play. I don't care what kind of nonsense people run in basement hammer. In most events, players are restricted to two-three sources and no duplicates.

Coincidentally, you just furthered the point that an unbalanced game hurts the casual crowd more. TOs will come together to make reasonable restrictions. Friendly games are the wild west.

My vote in all of this is just to ban all Superheavies/Gargantuan creatures (including IKs). Solves most problems easily.

Even with Only two cad, that's 2 WK pretty easy with a minimal troop:hq investment.

Or take the minimum wind rider and 1-12 WK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That being said, I'm just nitpicking. I largely agree with most of what jgrand said.

 pretre wrote:

 JGrand wrote:

Is it also news to you that you can take multiple CAD each with a LOW?

I should clarify--I have been posting and almost exclusively post about competitive play. I don't care what kind of nonsense people run in basement hammer. In most events, players are restricted to two-three sources and no duplicates.

Coincidentally, you just furthered the point that an unbalanced game hurts the casual crowd more. TOs will come together to make reasonable restrictions. Friendly games are the wild west.

My vote in all of this is just to ban all Superheavies/Gargantuan creatures (including IKs). Solves most problems easily.

Even with Only two cad, that's 2 WK pretty easy with a minimal troop:hq investment.

Or take the minimum wind rider and 1-12 WK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That being said, I'm just nitpicking. I largely agree with most of what jgrand said.

While I also agree I think it is important to distinguish the differences in the game he is advocating. Competitive 40k simply does not exist. House ruled, comp'd to hell and back 40k is what we are left with and that makes for serious inconsistencies between regions. That's why I always consider it an argument made from false authority when someone prefaces a post with, I am a seasoned top table GT player. Who cares? It's irrelevant when you consider how much variation exists from book to book, then you have to multiply it by: regional comps, missions, terrain etc etc. The TO's can't even decide how many CAD's to allow between tournaments.

Even if ITC comes up with some middle ground, this book craps all over true 40k. Which is real;ly saying something because normal 40k was already a troublesome ruleset.

 pretre wrote:

 JGrand wrote:

Is it also news to you that you can take multiple CAD each with a LOW?

I should clarify--I have been posting and almost exclusively post about competitive play. I don't care what kind of nonsense people run in basement hammer. In most events, players are restricted to two-three sources and no duplicates.

Coincidentally, you just furthered the point that an unbalanced game hurts the casual crowd more. TOs will come together to make reasonable restrictions. Friendly games are the wild west.

My vote in all of this is just to ban all Superheavies/Gargantuan creatures (including IKs). Solves most problems easily.

Even with Only two cad, that's 2 WK pretty easy with a minimal troop:hq investment.

Or take the minimum wind rider and 1-12 WK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That being said, I'm just nitpicking. I largely agree with most of what jgrand said.

If you take the minimum windrider and 1-12 WK, you can't take Wraithguard. If you take Wraithguard, you sink almost 1000 points there, add your rider host, and you have no space for more Wraithknights. If you take CAD, you can only take 1 WK.

So no matter how you cut it, the only way you can spam Wraithknights and windriders, is to take Windrider Host and 1-12 Wraithknights. You could supplement Windriders by allying a CAD or allied detachment. I'm not saying it's not strong, it's just "restrictive". It is physically without going unbound to spam wraithkinghts, wraithguard, and windriders in 1850 points as some people suggest. Not that I think that's all that brilliant anyhow.

Because it's a Guargantuan LoW... as I've said over.. and over... and over... That means max 1 per tournament, whereas before, you could take as many old, 240 point WK as you wanted. And before, you could take as multiple WK in a CAD, whereas now, you can't. Is the new WK better? Of course, but chances are, you'll just be fielding 1.

Regarding casual play, I don't think it will hurt casual play at all, except "TFG" -- the same guy who loved the wave serpent model SO much that he had to go out and buy 6 will now love the new Windrider model SO much that he has to go buy 15 boxes. And he's really just looking for newbs to stomp, because he gets all pissy if someone beats him.

 JGrand wrote:

Is it also news to you that you can take multiple CAD each with a LOW?

I should clarify--I have been posting and almost exclusively post about competitive play.

*snip*

My vote in all of this is just to ban all Superheavies/Gargantuan creatures (including IKs). Solves most problems easily.

Most every big event I've seen the rules posted allows two sources/detachments so that means two gargantuan WK.

As for the last part, I agree. I'm unabashedly critical of the post 6e army style and strongly prefer on faction in one detachment with no superheavies, gargs, forts beyond aegis. or fliers in "normal" 40k games of 2k pts or less..