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It's such a shame because they seem to have done quite a few things right, WS got nerfed, all the Aspects are finally playable, in fact everything seems at least playable. They just buffed things ridiculously, that didn't need it at all.

gungo wrote:

Not only the above but how can you even compare 2 str d shots with rerolls to hit in a wraith host that can fire at seperate targets then use that scatter laser on a third target to charge with 4 str 10 int 5 atks followed by stomps compared to 2 shot battle cannons that is the only unit you can charge with str d int 1 atks and think the two are balsnced? It's ridiculously better. Just to give you a fairly equal comparison. Take a look at the knight lancer vs the str d melee version same role same save except the lancer only gets int 5 on the charge, is much easier to kill and costs 120 points more. It's not even in remotelt the same price range.

Just to correct some mistakes...

Gargantuan creatures in 7th can still only fire two guns. Every Imperial Knight has two guns that it can fire at separate targets, though thanks to gimpy Walker rules their firing arc is more limited. The Imperial Knight's D-weapon swings are at Initiative 4, not 1.

Not saying the Wraithknight isn't seriously undercosted, but I do like my comparisons to be accurate.

 krodarklorr wrote:

gungo wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
In a cad they are superior. But Eldar are going to be better in the special detachment I think unless you are going strictly biker crazy. The bonuses for the formations are just to good.

That's where the balance (lolz, did I just say that? ) comes into play. Necrons could spam the gak out of Wraiths if they wanted to, but the formations is just too nice. And also more restricting.

Hate to break the news to you but d scythes do d3 wounds to wraiths and ignore fnp/reanimate by default. They still have thier 3++ though. Not to mention all the basic d weapons that insta death (str10) wraiths and ignore thier invulns on a 6. Honestly though the spyder that gives RP in this formstion Will die in no time from jet bike spam or the numerous other ways elder have to kill it. Seeing as this formstion is the most op formstion and unit in any non elder dex and is utterly crapped on by elder. You are trying really hard to prove elder aren't completely overpwoered in this current dex by comparing them. Take the consensus most broken non elder unit in its best formation (even if it has a bunch of tax units and no one spams it because of that) compare it to your broken dex and realize that multiple units in your book utterly decimates it and still fail to prove your point.... Yea good job

All of you guys can continue to argue all you want. I agree the Eldar codex didn't need this stuff. But, I'm honestly planning on wiping the floor with any Eldar player that decides to bring this cheese. And to those who don't, the book looks rather balanced and still strong otherwise. Do I like Eldar? Hell no, I've hated them for the longest time. I'm just too invested into this game to rage quit, and therefor, if someone wants to tote around their high ego and cheese list, I'll build a cheese list and defeat it. Otherwise, I'll continue playing the game in the environment I enjoy.

So please, everyone keep arguing with me. Say I'm wrong, say the world is ending. Hell, I was right there with you with the release of these rumors. But it won't stop the people who really enjoy this game from chugging on. And take away the Wraithknight and jetbikes. What do Eldar have? Nothing that every army can't already deal with easily.

Wraith Knights, jetbike which are the fastest ob sec troop in game that spam cheap high str relentless hvy weapons, and mass range d weapons on at least 4 different units that no other army has outside of incredibly high cost forgeworld lord of wars.
Then Ya elder have nothing but a cheap durable transport with a nice last resort firing ability, good to great specialized aspect units, and some of the best psychic ability in game. But other then that they have nothing on other armies!!!!

gungo wrote:

Wraith Knights, jetbike troops that spam cheap high str special weapons, and mass range d weapons on at least 4 different units that no other army has outside of incredibly high cost forgeworld lord of wars.
Then Ya elder have nothing but a cheap durable transport with a nice last resort firing ability, good to great specialized aspect units, and some of the best psychic ability in game. But other then that they have nothing on other armies!!!!

I'd much rather be T4.

 krodarklorr wrote:

gungo wrote:

Wraith Knights, jetbike troops that spam cheap high str special weapons, and mass range d weapons on at least 4 different units that no other army has outside of incredibly high cost forgeworld lord of wars.
Then Ya elder have nothing but a cheap durable transport with a nice last resort firing ability, good to great specialized aspect units, and some of the best psychic ability in game. But other then that they have nothing on other armies!!!!

I'd much rather be T4.

Take a cad filled with jetbike troops with the wraith host formstion you get mass objective secured super fast t4 troops an extra wraithknight low and an entire formstion of t6 guards with a second wraithknight.
I guess you can have everything.

 krodarklorr wrote:

gungo wrote:

Wraith Knights, jetbike troops that spam cheap high str special weapons, and mass range d weapons on at least 4 different units that no other army has outside of incredibly high cost forgeworld lord of wars.
Then Ya elder have nothing but a cheap durable transport with a nice last resort firing ability, good to great specialized aspect units, and some of the best psychic ability in game. But other then that they have nothing on other armies!!!!

I'd much rather be T4.

Many of the units people are having issues with, and that you'll commonly see, are all going to be T4 or higher. Jetbikes are T4, Wraithguard are T6, etc. Making an Eldar army with little or no T3 is very easy.

gungo wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

gungo wrote:

Wraith Knights, jetbike troops that spam cheap high str special weapons, and mass range d weapons on at least 4 different units that no other army has outside of incredibly high cost forgeworld lord of wars.
Then Ya elder have nothing but a cheap durable transport with a nice last resort firing ability, good to great specialized aspect units, and some of the best psychic ability in game. But other then that they have nothing on other armies!!!!

I'd much rather be T4.

Play the wraithost you get mass t6 instead.
I guess you can't have everything.

How are those T6 getting within range?

If you play the wraithhost how are you going to fit all the dreaded scatriders in?

Shhhhh forge the narrative.

 Swabby wrote:
If you play the wraithhost how are you going to fit all the dreaded scatriders in?

It's quite amazing you see most tournamnets are 1850 points but even with some barebones you can fit it into 1500 lists.
What you do is take two detschments. I know it's crazy. You should try it people do it all the time.
The amazing thing is you can take a wraith host formation and a cad. What!!!!
In the cad all you need is 1 hq, then fill out those obj secured jetbikes!!!! Heck you can go all crazy and get another wraithknight or maybe you instead prefer some transports for those guardians. Or heck you don't need to give every wraith guard a transport you just might want to keep one back protecting your wraithknights.

 krodarklorr wrote:

gungo wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

gungo wrote:

Wraith Knights, jetbike troops that spam cheap high str special weapons, and mass range d weapons on at least 4 different units that no other army has outside of incredibly high cost forgeworld lord of wars.
Then Ya elder have nothing but a cheap durable transport with a nice last resort firing ability, good to great specialized aspect units, and some of the best psychic ability in game. But other then that they have nothing on other armies!!!!

I'd much rather be T4.

Play the wraithost you get mass t6 instead.
I guess you can't have everything.

How are those T6 getting within range?

Eldar have access to fast skimmer transports, fast OPEN-TOPPED skimmer transports, perfect deepstrikes, and some of the cheapest, most powerful, and most reliable psykers in the game.

I'm on the same page as you, I think Eldar can be dealt with- but pretending that Wraithguard are hard to get in range is absurd. A 135 pt allied detachment changes makes them inescapable.

gungo wrote:

 Swabby wrote:
If you play the wraithhost how are you going to fit all the dreaded scatriders in?

It's quite amazing you see most tournamnets are 1850 points but even with some barebones you can fit it into 1500 lists.
What you do is take two detschments. I know it's crazy. You should try it people do it all the time.
The amazing thing is you can take a wraith host formation and a cad. What!!!!
In the cad all you need is 1 hq, then fill out those obj secured jetbikes!!!! Heck you can go all crazy and get another wraithknight or maybe you instead prefer some transports for those guardians. Or heck you don't need to give every wraith guard a transport you just might want to keep one back protecting your wraithknights.

I may have missed it. Don't you have to first take one of the 3 Guardian Warhosts first before you can take other warhosts such as the Wraithhost formation? I thought the Guardian styled formations unlocked access to all the others.

 Sarigar wrote:

gungo wrote:

 Swabby wrote:
If you play the wraithhost how are you going to fit all the dreaded scatriders in?

It's quite amazing you see most tournamnets are 1850 points but even with some barebones you can fit it into 1500 lists.
What you do is take two detschments. I know it's crazy. You should try it people do it all the time.
The amazing thing is you can take a wraith host formation and a cad. What!!!!
In the cad all you need is 1 hq, then fill out those obj secured jetbikes!!!! Heck you can go all crazy and get another wraithknight or maybe you instead prefer some transports for those guardians. Or heck you don't need to give every wraith guard a transport you just might want to keep one back protecting your wraithknights.

I may have missed it. Don't you have to first take one of the 3 Guardian Warhosts first before you can take other warhosts such as the Wraithhost formation? I thought the Guardian styled formations unlocked access to all the others.

Nope
There is no requirement to take formstions together in either the elder book or brb however you do not gain the extra formation rules from the warhost detschment.

Well, the web definitely has some mucky stuff. But, this Eldar codex is just plain filthy.

 Rinkydink wrote:
Well, the web definitely has some mucky stuff. But, this Eldar codex is just plain filthy.

But is it filthy in the right way?

Sorry this thread is hard to follow.

So all we're getting with this Eldar release is the Codex, plastic Jetbikes, Farseer on a jetbike and new Autarch?

Nothing else in the upcoming weeks (because it seems Assassin's is next week and then WHFB after that?)

 Raesvelg wrote:

gungo wrote:

Not only the above but how can you even compare 2 str d shots with rerolls to hit in a wraith host that can fire at seperate targets then use that scatter laser on a third target to charge with 4 str 10 int 5 atks followed by stomps compared to 2 shot battle cannons that is the only unit you can charge with str d int 1 atks and think the two are balsnced? It's ridiculously better. Just to give you a fairly equal comparison. Take a look at the knight lancer vs the str d melee version same role same save except the lancer only gets int 5 on the charge, is much easier to kill and costs 120 points more. It's not even in remotelt the same price range.

Just to correct some mistakes...

Gargantuan creatures in 7th can still only fire two guns. Every Imperial Knight has two guns that it can fire at separate targets, though thanks to gimpy Walker rules their firing arc is more limited. The Imperial Knight's D-weapon swings are at Initiative 4, not 1.

Not saying the Wraithknight isn't seriously undercosted, but I do like my comparisons to be accurate.

If you're going to "correct some mistakes", you should try actually, well, being CORRECT. A gargantuan monstrous creature can fire as many weapons as it has at different targets. I'm not sure where you got your info but you might want to go read the BRB page on gargantuan creatures. I'm at work right now or I would quote the page # and exact text.

 Toofast wrote:

 Raesvelg wrote:

gungo wrote:

Not only the above but how can you even compare 2 str d shots with rerolls to hit in a wraith host that can fire at seperate targets then use that scatter laser on a third target to charge with 4 str 10 int 5 atks followed by stomps compared to 2 shot battle cannons that is the only unit you can charge with str d int 1 atks and think the two are balsnced? It's ridiculously better. Just to give you a fairly equal comparison. Take a look at the knight lancer vs the str d melee version same role same save except the lancer only gets int 5 on the charge, is much easier to kill and costs 120 points more. It's not even in remotelt the same price range.

Just to correct some mistakes...

Gargantuan creatures in 7th can still only fire two guns. Every Imperial Knight has two guns that it can fire at separate targets, though thanks to gimpy Walker rules their firing arc is more limited. The Imperial Knight's D-weapon swings are at Initiative 4, not 1.

Not saying the Wraithknight isn't seriously undercosted, but I do like my comparisons to be accurate.

just to correct some mistakes...

Wraithknight is initative 5 not 4, and I don't think imperial knights strike at initative one either

gungo wrote:

It's quite amazing you see most tournamnets are 1850 points but even with some barebones you can fit it into 1500 lists.

The absolute minimum points cost of the dataslate you are talking about is 960 points in todays codex values. This is three minimum 5 wraithguard units, 2 naked wraithlords, and a wraithknight. We know the wraithknight is going up in cost for its basic configuration, and it would be foolish to run three minimum units of wraithguard and 2 naked wraithlords.

By the time you are done kitting these out, you are totally gimping your army by loading down with full units of scatter laser windrider squads. I mean you can do it, but your army is going to suck.

Ah here it is. Can't tell page # because I'm looking at pdf of the ibook. It's on page 481 of the ibook.

Gargantuan creatures - shooting - When a gargantuan creature or flying gargantuan creature makes a shooting attack, it may fire each of its weapons at a different target if desired. In addition, firing ordnance weapons has no effect on a gargantuan creature or flying gargantuan creature's ability to fire other weapons. Gargantuan creatures and flying gargantuan creatures cannot fire overwatch.

What about that paragraph says you can only fire 2 weapons?

 Toofast wrote:
Ah here it is. Can't tell page # because I'm looking at pdf of the ibook. It's on page 481 of the ibook.

Gargantuan creatures - shooting - When a gargantuan creature or flying gargantuan creature makes a shooting attack, it may fire each of its weapons at a different target if desired. In addition, firing ordnance weapons has no effect on a gargantuan creature or flying gargantuan creature's ability to fire other weapons. Gargantuan creatures and flying gargantuan creatures cannot fire overwatch.

What about that paragraph says you can only fire 2 weapons?

The second paragraph under the Gargantuan creature section. It says Gargantuan creatures are monstrous creatures that have additional rules and exceptions given below.


The real question is: Is the gargantuan creatures rule that says each of it's weapons may fire at a different target referring to the 2 it is allowed to fire as a monstrous creature, or does it mean it can fire every weapon it has?

By the way both interpretations are completely valid, as the language used can literally mean both ways.

Maybe this one should go to the rules discussion section, and hopefully get an FAQ.

 Colpicklejar wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

gungo wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

gungo wrote:

Wraith Knights, jetbike troops that spam cheap high str special weapons, and mass range d weapons on at least 4 different units that no other army has outside of incredibly high cost forgeworld lord of wars.
Then Ya elder have nothing but a cheap durable transport with a nice last resort firing ability, good to great specialized aspect units, and some of the best psychic ability in game. But other then that they have nothing on other armies!!!!

I'd much rather be T4.

Play the wraithost you get mass t6 instead.
I guess you can't have everything.

How are those T6 getting within range?

Eldar have access to fast skimmer transports, fast OPEN-TOPPED skimmer transports, perfect deepstrikes, and some of the cheapest, most powerful, and most reliable psykers in the game.

I'm on the same page as you, I think Eldar can be dealt with- but pretending that Wraithguard are hard to get in range is absurd. A 135 pt allied detachment changes makes them inescapable.

Yes, so strategically place your units. Feed them a chaff unit if need be. Then, no that they're within range, eat them for breakfast next turn. 135 allied points, plus, what, 210 points for the D Scythes? Yeah, lots of points down the drain. Hope whatever they killed was worth it.

 megatrons2nd wrote:

 Toofast wrote:
Ah here it is. Can't tell page # because I'm looking at pdf of the ibook. It's on page 481 of the ibook.

Gargantuan creatures - shooting - When a gargantuan creature or flying gargantuan creature makes a shooting attack, it may fire each of its weapons at a different target if desired. In addition, firing ordnance weapons has no effect on a gargantuan creature or flying gargantuan creature's ability to fire other weapons. Gargantuan creatures and flying gargantuan creatures cannot fire overwatch.

What about that paragraph says you can only fire 2 weapons?

The second paragraph under the Gargantuan creature section. It says Gargantuan creatures are monstrous creatures that have additional rules and exceptions given below.


The real question is: Is the gargantuan creatures rule that says each of it's weapons may fire at a different target referring to the 2 it is allowed to fire as a monstrous creature, or does it mean it can fire every weapon it has?

By the way both interpretations are completely valid, as the language used can literally mean both ways.

Maybe this one should go to the rules discussion section, and hopefully get an FAQ.

Its a permissive ruleset. GCs have additional exceptions, one of those being it can fire each of its weapons. If it has 27 weapons, it can fire each of those weapons. Pretty clear to me. I've also never seen a single tournament FAQ interpret it any other way.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Sorry this thread is hard to follow.

So all we're getting with this Eldar release is the Codex, plastic Jetbikes, Farseer on a jetbike and new Autarch?

Nothing else in the upcoming weeks (because it seems Assassin's is next week and then WHFB after that?)

Correct, the rumored Avatar was a no-show, possibly a later release.

 Raesvelg wrote:

gungo wrote:

Not only the above but how can you even compare 2 str d shots with rerolls to hit in a wraith host that can fire at seperate targets then use that scatter laser on a third target to charge with 4 str 10 int 5 atks followed by stomps compared to 2 shot battle cannons that is the only unit you can charge with str d int 1 atks and think the two are balsnced? It's ridiculously better. Just to give you a fairly equal comparison. Take a look at the knight lancer vs the str d melee version same role same save except the lancer only gets int 5 on the charge, is much easier to kill and costs 120 points more. It's not even in remotelt the same price range.

Just to correct some mistakes...

Gargantuan creatures in 7th can still only fire two guns. Every Imperial Knight has two guns that it can fire at separate targets, though thanks to gimpy Walker rules their firing arc is more limited. The Imperial Knight's D-weapon swings are at Initiative 4, not 1.

Not saying the Wraithknight isn't seriously undercosted, but I do like my comparisons to be accurate.

GCs can fire each of their weapons. Not just two.

Do Dark Reapers Reroll versus Flying Monstrous Creatures or Just Flyers.

Also 32 point Dark Reapers with Skyfire missiles HA!

 Swabby wrote:

gungo wrote:

It's quite amazing you see most tournamnets are 1850 points but even with some barebones you can fit it into 1500 lists.

The absolute minimum points cost of the dataslate you are talking about is 960 points in todays codex values. This is three minimum 5 wraithguard units, 2 naked wraithlords, and a wraithknight. We know the wraithknight is going up in cost for its basic configuration, and it would be foolish to run three minimum units of wraithguard and 2 naked wraithlords.

By the time you are done kitting these out, you are totally gimping your army by loading down with full units of scatter laser windrider squads. I mean you can do it, but your army is going to suck.

Did you even read what I said or did you just repeat what I said and argued just to argue?
I said you can take a wraithost and a scatbikes cad and easily fit both into a 1850 list or go bare bones and still fit both into a 1500 list.
Nothing you said contradicts that statement. Sadly you can easily fit a wraithost and a cad with an hq, two troops of scatbikes, and a a pair of transports or second wraithknight for 1850. Why in the world would you need to go two full sqauds of scat bikes? It's overkill!!! 2 squads of 5-10 bikes each is plenty. Save the points get transports for two squads of wraithguard or get a second wraithknight. Beleive me when your rolling around with 2 wraithknights. 2x 6-7 man squads of scat bikes, farseer in bike, spirit seer, 3 x 5 man squads of guardians, 2 of them in wave serpents , and a wraithlord. It might be a low model count list but hardly gimping yourself. It's downright brutal.

So the Wave Serpent shield goes away for good if you fire it?

Good. It's about damned time.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So the Wave Serpent shield goes away for good if you fire it?

Good. It's about damned time.

Yup but it's much cheaper
Fires 2d6 str6ap4 ignore cover, strike down hits
So when you drop your tranported infantry and do decide to fire it. It's a nasty weapon.

rollawaythestone wrote:
Well, looks like Eldar are losing quite a bit of their psychic dice in general. Warlocks are Brotherhood of Psykers: ML1 for 1-3 Warlorkcs, ML2 for 4-6, and ML3 for 7+. They lose powers if models die and they drop to the lower ML.

I think in general, then, the Eldar Psychic phase might be toned down? Yes they manifest on a 3+, but it'll be hard to protect your Farseers and Warlocks in general, because they won't be rolling up a billion spells to pick and choose protection powers as easily. Eldar Seer Council lists are going to have a harder time. It is the case, though, that Farseers are given out like candy in the new Eldar Warhost detatchment.

The Warlocks still generate one Warp Charge point per 'lock at the beginning of the psychic phase. That's pretty sick.