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Excuse me for putting words in his mouth, but I believe Changemod's point was that there are a number of units that don't do everything on their own (read: they require synergy/force multiplication to work effectively) and people refer to these units as "sub-optimal, trash tier beer and pretzels units"

Oh hi lictors!

But that doesn't mean that a unit like that can't work. You just have to dedicate other resources to making it work. Shroud that thirster. Make it invisible. Give it some greater rewards/grim it. I have a feeling you'll start to see some returns. Is it difficult to do, and potentially expensive points-wise? Sure is, but what you'll find is that you are rewarded with a whole that is greater than the sum of the parts. Just ask Sean Nayden or Nick Rose

FYI I would take 3 Bloodthirsters before I took a single KOS, but part of that is the special place in my heart that Khorne holds, and the exact lack thereof for Slaanesh

Any unit can fulfill a function adequately if you "support it properly". That doesn't make it a good unit, however. You can be an excellent player and use bad units to win games- that still doesn't make the units you're using good.

I don't really understand why people keep referring to Lictors and scouts, as their performance in the LVO doesn't in any way contradict my point.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
A unit who's sole reason for existing is to make it into combat, dying before it can make it into combat isn't enough? You've already come to the conclusion that they're overpriced as well. I'm not really sure what you're looking for.

I'm looking for why it specifically is dying early when the entire Khorne side of the table is covered in assault units and shooting priority goes to the 12 inch move ones.

If you have a host of 12'' moving assault units tying up the enemies' half of the board, then why are you paying out the nose for a unit that's going to take three turns to even get into range to do anything? Slow moving melee units are redundant in a list filled with fast moving ones.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
If you have a host of 12'' moving assault units tying up the enemies' half of the board, then why are you paying for possessed? They're obviously redundant.

Because they're mandatory to the core formation of the detachment.

Only reason I'm asking how bad they truly are in the first place.

changemod wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
If you have a host of 12'' moving assault units tying up the enemies' half of the board, then why are you paying for possessed? They're obviously redundant.

Because they're mandatory to the core formation of the detachment.

Well then there's your answer. lol

If the only reason you're taking them is because you're being forced to do so, and you acknowledge that they're a tax, then how do you come to the conclusion that they're a good unit?

The unit is so slow that you have to either spend more points on a vehicle to transport an already expensive unit, or screen them with "threat saturation". But if you've already managed to tie up the enemy forces to the point where they can't be bothered to shoot at your possessed, then the possessed aren't needed, are they? So what did you pay for them for in the first place? What roll did they fulfill? Why not take those points and buy some Plague Marines, or Obliterators or another Heldrake or any other number of decent units.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

changemod wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
If you have a host of 12'' moving assault units tying up the enemies' half of the board, then why are you paying for possessed? They're obviously redundant.

Because they're mandatory to the core formation of the detachment.

Well then there's your answer. lol

If the only reason you're taking them is because you're being forced to do so, and you acknowledge that they're a tax, then how do you come to the conclusion that they're a good unit?

Well, you cropped off the relevant part of my post, but I can rephrase:

I am asking how bad they truly are. Not for a flat statement of "They're terrible".

Not calling them good, and have frankly no clue where you got that from.

I don't understand your question, then. You'll have to re-phrase what you mean.

Let's try: "We're stuck with a possessed tax, and it's a substantial point sink. Given that, what use can we get out of them rather than flippantly dismissing them as dead weight?"

Ahhhhh. Got ya.

Well, my biggest issue with Possessed is their speed. They're too expensive to be objective-campers or area denial (plus they aren't really strong enough to be area-denial anyway), and I'm not impressed enough with the blood tally to consider just rofl-throwing them away for points. Sooo the big question is how to actually get them into combat where they can earn their points back.

The three ideas that come to mind are gate of infinity, master of deception for infiltrating or just stick 'em in a rhino.

If you want to keep them cheap it's less than 200 points for a unit of 5 in a dirge-caster rhino. Althernatively you could go for broke and take 9 and an invisibility sorcerer, put them in a rhino with a dirge-caster and hope for the best lol.

Ahriman has master of deception, and rolling on telepathy with all four of his powers grants like an 80% chance of getting invisibility. You can infiltrate them forward, disembark the unit and make them invisible while also blasting stuff with Ahriman's multiple psychic shrieks. Then charge next turn.

That's super-expensive to do, basically a deathstar, but it's pretty fun.

Could try sitting them back and get them to hold objectives?

I'm sorry but three turns? They move 12". What world are you living in where you need 42" before you can get into charge range (assume 3" run each of the first 2 turns). You move one turn. Run. Next turn you have moved 27" total since deployment and should truly be able to get a charge off

What world are you living in that possessed move 12'' a turn? They're infantry.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
What world are you living in that possessed move 12'' a turn? They're infantry.

If anyone has directions I'd like to move there.

Tell me about it. Possessed having a 12'' move would be freaking amazing.

Haha my bad thought you were still on the bloodthirster train. Possessed are awful that's correct

What do people think of mixing 2 Heldrakes w/ 2 Soulgrinders a Mauler Fiend and a bunch of Flesh Hounds?

I have experience with codex possessed.

They're not a good assault unit but they can reliably pop av10-11 vehicles in mellee and mop up enemy infantry that's not cc-oriented elite. They can also be used as a bauble-wrap against enemy units with low number of attacks like MC. Fearless and 5++ helps here.

Possessed are not a kind of a unit that you'd take in a competitive list on purpose but they have their uses. So, not as bad as a tax if you don't invest anything above the bare minimum in them.

To be honest, i've had possessed win me a game. I had 2*10 squads of them, a bunch of cultists with Tzeench apostle, Tzeench Sorc, 1000 sons and a bunch of cultists - 1k (or 1250 - don't remember) game vs R'Vana riptide, regular riptide, cheap commander, tetras, kroots and a squad of vespids. Possessed rushed on the flanks, double gift of mutation helped them get crusader that allowed to run 5-6" every turn. Fearless, cover or 5++ allowed to live for 2 rounds and even get into combat with the HQ-carrier squad - apostle and sorc went there.
In the end, they've distracted the opponent long enough for cultists to grab relic and hide behind blos. It was in 6-th.

They are garbage units and no one should use them ever. However, I guess you could stick them in the backfield and guard a objective of some type or keep them in reserve for late game arrival. That's the only use I see for them.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
You summon FREE bloodthirsters and deamon princes at the same time.

They aren't free. If you feed your opponent, say, 4 bloodletter squads to help build up the blood points for that BT, that's 400 points of dead units, not counting whatever malestrom/first blood points you might also be giving your opponent and the opportunity cost from not using those bloodletters to capture objectives and/or simply having better stuff in the troops slot.

Regular summoning is much closer to free because it doesn't involve suiciding your own units to get it, and those units can also capture objectives and do other things while summoning.

(Btw the keeper of secrets wants to have a word with you for trying to take away his 'worst GD award').

No it doesn't, as the KoS is a whopping 80 points less then a Bloodthirster, while also having access to psychic abilities for telepathy shenanigans.

changemod wrote:
Everyone says that about basically any suboptimal unit. You'll need to be more specific.

A unit who's sole reason for existing is to make it into combat, dying before it can make it into combat isn't enough? You've already come to the conclusion that they're overpriced as well. I'm not really sure what you're looking for.

I think you are entirely missing the tactical flexibility this grants you. You are not as worried about units being killed, so you can play far morr aggressivly than you would with them. You can advance on objectives that would be otherwise tactically disadvantageous to reach, you can speed bump units, you can shove a unit into the opponents face and force them to deal with it. And it is not 'suiciding' these units. They cause damge in a much more aggressive way, have the ability to achieve objectives and take opponents firepower onto themselves before they die. They are actively doing something for their points. And who said it has to be 10 bloodletters? Why not 10 renegades or mutants?
Whilst on the other foot a summoning list is usually achieving nothing for its points whilst it summons apart from summoning. The units you pay for the WC for make up the majority if not all of your list and achieve little in comparison as you don't want them to die as you will lose WC. Summoned units are not free as they end up restricting the abilities of the units summoning them. This is in comparsion to the blood points which actively encourages a unit to go out and do something by pressing the opponent. Summoning is most assuredly not free.

Sorry dude but there is no way renegade units are going to count towards the blood tally.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
What world are you living in that possessed move 12'' a turn? They're infantry.

Crimson Slaughter, probably.

The good thing about Crimson Slaughter Possessed is that they find it much easier to reach an assault (thanks to their unique table having Beasts, Shrouded, and 3+ invulnerable saves on it) but much worse once they actually get there (because it only has a 1/3 chance of providing any combat benefit, unlike the normal possessed table).

Possessed aren't great. Their biggest problem is durabiity; they're more expensive even than veteran marines like Chosen, Sternguard, Vanguard, Company Veterans, etc, but are no tougher. The fact that you're stuck with the Mark of Khorne and have no possibility of Invisibility or similar powers exacerbates this.

As noted, if you can get them into an assault they can do well, but that's the challenge.


I wouldn't have them footslogging. They have fleet, but even then it'll take too long to reach the enemy, and without guns they're no use as a backfield unit. As a rule, assault units either need to be substantially tougher point for point than regular marines, or need to reach the enemy in 1-2 turns. Otherwise too few are likely to reach the enemy to do any good.

Footslogging as a 'shoot me, shoot me!' blood point offering is possible, but at well over 100 points, you've got better investment options in the form of suicidal cultists.

In a transport.....you've either got a land raider or a rhino. I don't think a land raider's a great plan - by the time you get to 'big unit in a land raider' you're talking about the squad being the central spearhead of your army, and the fact that there are plenty of units that possessed will struggle to hurt (2+ saves, walkers, etc) mean that I'd rather put terminators or monstrous creatures at that spearpoint.

A rhino with 5 guys in it might be useful. 5 guys can support someone else's assault, won't break the bank, and give you a rhino with a dirge caster - which is a ridiculously good bit of gear in an assault-based army. Plus, you're minimizing the amount you're spending on the squad relative to the one thing that really stands out - the possessed champion.

Note that it's not garuanteed that he's going to shine, but his almost unique access to multiple gifts of mutation will, every so often, produce something horrific. The last time I saw this happen, the champion started the game (after one multiple boons roll) with a rerollable 2+ armour save, and a fleshbane close combat weapon.

Maybe run them with a Herald? Could grimoire them but I have better targets for that tbh.

GW giveth and GW taketh away:

+ Fearless instead of Instability
+ Many new combinations of Daemons and Chaos Space Marines in the same unit
+ The Blood Tithe rule
+ New formations - use them or don't - it's up to you

- Rewards are gone
- Some units are gone (Chosen, Mutilators, Obliterators comes to mind)
- MANY wasted opportunities

To me the bad sides of the codex shadows out the good sides by far and Khorne units (from both the Chaos Daemons and the Chaos Space Marines) needed a boost so a mono Khorne army could be equal other armies.

If I want to use the Khorne Daemonkin but not as a primary detachment, what options do I have?

Is the Blood Tithe rule only used if the primary detachment is a Slaughter Cult?

Blood tithe works with any detachment but the slaughter cult makes it a lot more appetizing. I guess just allying in a juggerlord , letters and hounds would do the job. Or even just the fearless daemons into a regular csm army. (So you keep your 2+ daemonheart)

So an allied detachment of say juggerherrald with locus , 10 cultists and 20 hounds.

Agreed that it's the Slaughter Cult which makes the Blood Tithe interesting but my point was that the Blood points (?) is gathered by all enemy units and all characters in challenges, right? So getting access to this by a minimum cost would be a great addition to other Chaos armies.

Any thoughts on what a Herald of Khorne could add to any Chaos Space Marines unit? The loci are Adamantium Will (boring), Rage (they probably already have that through the Mark of Khorne) and Hatred (probably the best to bestow the unit with but it's 25 points).

Chaospling wrote:
Agreed that it's the Slaughter Cult which makes the Blood Tithe interesting but my point was that the Blood points (?) is gathered by all enemy units and all characters in challenges, right? So getting access to this by a minimum cost would be a great addition to other Chaos armies.

Any thoughts on what a Herald of Khorne could be to any Chaos Space Marines unit? The loci are Adamantium Will (boring), Rage (they probably already have that though the Mark of Khorne) and Hatred (probably the best to bestow the unit with but it's 25 points).

CSM could already get Hatred from Dark Apostles ala Zealot. I guess its cheaper Hatred and Fearless but since the Herald doesn't have 3+ armor he is way easier to kill.

We will have to see the exact wording but it's most probably only units with the bloodtithe rule that generate blood points. So not much benefit unless you take lots of them.

I could get behind hatred on a big unit. Also fearless remember . Stick him in 20 marines haha. Or leading bikes on a jugger.

There's also a blood throne but I've never thought about taking it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Very true about the apostle but I'm thinking minimum spend on a hq tax here

The problem is aparently everyone has Skulltaker's "Skulls for the Skull Throne" rule which means every character has to declare and accept challenges

So the second a character with even decent combat abilities enter the fight the herald will probably die because he only has 2W with 5++

@Captyn_Bob: But enemy units also generate Blood Points - that's the part I'm interested in.

So does anyone know if the special rule of the Slaughter Cult only applies if it's the Primary detachment?

Ah yes, I forgot about the Herald being Fearless. I'll probably only use him for this in a Chaos Space Marines unit which doesn't have the Fearless special rule.