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So, this is mostly something I’m curious about for my own products but also applies to other games too, but I’m curious to see what ya’ll think.

Right now I am including cards with my models, but lately I’ve been wondering … I know a lot of folks buy my models to use in other games, and in that case the card is just a waste and something they’ll probably just throw out. Since I have the rules for each unit in the rulebook, I'm wondering if would it be better to not add the cards with the models and instead offer a downloadable PDF and/or print-on-demand cards for players that want them. This will make packaging a little easier as there's 1 less component to worry about and/or wait on if we run out.

Just wondering, do you prefer to have a stat card included with your models? Or are you OK with having the rules in a book, and a downloadable PDF card / info sheet?

I've recently come to the decision that this is the way to go. Models come with rules and the rulebook focuses on game mechanics. If people want fluff and pretty pictures, then they can buy their respective faction/army book. GW has soured me to their codex model due to inconsistencies and cost.

Definitely stat cards with the models. I love not having to buy an expensive supplement just to field a new unit.

If I can get the rules online as a PDF, I wouldn’t necessarily need a card, but it would be nice. If adding the card boosts the cost of the mini noticeably, I’ll definitely pass.

I can make my own reference cards. I do it for 40k. Are they as nice as professionally done ones? Probably not. But having them makes the game go smoother. These days I think it’s safe to assume that everyone has access to the internet and a printer. So print-your-own is a perfectly viable option. It might be nice as a company to offer professionally printed play aids on your webstore for those who don’t want to bother.

YES!

In fact, I think that ALL games should need nothing but the rules book, and then a data sheet that comes with each model.

This is especially true for 40K.

Eventually, I hope to create an Ancients/Fantasy game where the game is sold as a sort of starter kit, which includes the rules, and then four to five units for each side (pre-painted and based), where each unit has a data card that includes everything needed to play the game.... Additional units can be bought, which include their own rules and data cards.

No codexes, no expansions... Everything comes with the figures.

I suppose this would work for any period, come to thing of it.

MB

Kinda funny, here folks want cards. I posted the same post on The Miniatures Page and all the historical guys say hell no

I do think the cards come in handy though, but I guess I was just wondering if a PDF would be more convenient since not everyone needs them. Or maybe, include cards with box sets, but not in blister packs for solo minis, to keep the cost down?

I think PP does it perfectly: a rulebook that includes some basics of each army, models come with rule cards/stat sheet, and you can buy an army specific book if you want that also includes tons of fluff. They've set the bar pretty high on that one.

I think it depends on how integral the cards are to the gameplay - if they're just reproducing stats from the rulebook, then they're probably not necessary. If they are used to track damage or something, like in Warmahordes or Bushido, then they need to be included with the models. A dry wipe marker and a card in a sleeve is such a simple and elegant book-keeping mechanic.

That was one of the reasons I thought about not including them. They are just reprinting what's in the book, you don't track damage. I had thought about redesigning the cards with wound boxes, but in the current design there's just a number there and when I play I just use the warhammer method of tracking wounds with a D6 next to the model.

 Necros wrote:
Or are you OK with having the rules in a book, and a downloadable PDF card / info sheet?

I'm perfectly fine with this. It allows you to make updates, either in the books or in the PDF's and keep things current. Keep your production costs low, if you can.

Stat cards in a box is just more gak I have to throw away.

I think stat cards can be an improvement over having to get a rule book, especially if you are trying to keep buy-in cost low. That being said, there is the potential to run into problems if you release an updated rule or edition and then have a load of out of date stock.

I think Infinity's model, of an online army builder and PDF of the rules, is a pretty good solution. You can also then back that up with a hard copy main rulebook.

 Pacific wrote:
I think stat cards can be an improvement over having to get a rule book, especially if you are trying to keep buy-in cost low. That being said, there is the potential to run into problems if you release an updated rule or edition and then have a load of out of date stock.

I think Infinity's model, of an online army builder and PDF of the rules, is a pretty good solution. You can also then back that up with a hard copy main rulebook.

Came in to post this - for about a thousand reasons, Infinity's model is excellent in terms of game quality, incentivizing players to buy models, and production costs.

I prefer cards. Putting dice on the table works until someone bumps them or gets confused about which dice belongs to which model. Not to mention putting dice down on the table takes away from the "aesthetic" of the game for me. Cards all the way.

Or an app. But that's expensive to build and takes time and resources you might not have. But seriously, WarRoom may be the best thing to happen for me. Love it.

I'd love to do an online army buildier and/or app. Problem there is I just don't have the programming skills and can't afford that, I'd rather spend my teeny budget getting new models done at this point. I tried using Army Builder at one point, I had one fan build a list, but he vanished over the years. I tried messing with it myself and all I got to show for it was a huge headache as my brain tried to comprehend the rules to make it work.

I like cards that are integrated well into the mechanics of the game. Like the ones in warmachine.

But if it's just the rules and cost for the unit, I would rather just a PDF. Malifaux is a example of the latter. Another issue I have with the malifaux cards, is that they don't fit in the hard plastic card sleeves that you can write on with dry-erase marker. (You see Warmachien players use them for the damage tracks.)

Historical guys don't like cards because they buy a rulebook with unit stats, and it stays constant for years. I'm coming from the GW model where they put out an expensive rulebook with no unit/army stats. Then they force you to buy a separate expensive codex. Then you buy expensive models that have no rules with them. Then a few months down the road, they put out a new codex for a different army that has identical units or wargear that are costed completely different and either delete rules from the older entry or create new ones. So, you have Inquisitorial Chimeras that cost differently than IG Chimeras and don't have the same special rules.

Obviously, if you're not following this model, then maybe unit cards are an unnecessary expense. I just see how PP runs things vs. how GW runs things, and I prefer the former when it comes to rules and how to implement them.

I'd prefer to just have all the rules on PDF that can be printed out or PP style units cards with the main rules in softback if I can help it; saves on space and costs a lot more than any other system I know of and have tried.

GW's system of having almost everything as a hardback book rules-wise basically sucks IMO.

Definitely a fan of cards, especially for anything with numerous options or abilities (like spells) that I might need to reference. Damage tracking is also a neat plus when needed but I think the biggest boon is not needing to buy a separate book- not everyone loves the fluff and wants to spend money on it.

As a note there's no reason cards need to be included. If you can release PDFs or jpegs of the cards I can print or look at on my phone free that's almost as good. I can still play with the model right away. A QR code on the packet could link to said resources, as well as quickstart rules or anything else you want to promote.

It's still easier to provide a list creating program, with printouts, that will both print cards, but also a well formatted army sheet that includes damage tracking, and more.

Part of the problem with that is cost of hiring a computer tech guy for what is basically a very non-tech hobby.

But, that's where things are moving this day and age.

Yes.

Online unit profiles (no matter what format) that can be updated easily, please.

I come from playing Heroclix before 'true' wargaming, and cards just make sense to me.
You can pop them in folders, you can punch holes in them and make a small booklet that hangs on your figure case. You can put them on the table to remind you there's something you need to remember.

I find myself a little lost without, in all honesty.

Absolutely, yes!

From a game design stand point, the question you have to answer is how will you add new units to your game?

Assuming that you are planning to release additional units for your game, including the stat cards for the units with the figures is the cheapest commercial way and the most convenient way for your customers to get the stats for the units.

You could release new books that accompany the figures, but this would require your customers to make a larger initial investment to acquire the new figures. A free PDF with the stats, while not costing your customers additional money, is a somewhat inconvenient hurdle thatyour customers have to climb over.

Finally, will your customers want the stat cards separate from the miniatures? With the space combat genre, a lot of players are not interested in the miniatures because they already have plenty, but they do want all the paper components needed to play the game.

On the topic of an app, if you are willing to put your units stats on the web for free, a mobile friendly micro site would work fine for this purpose.

I am currently printing a full list of card for Nid units. It sucks that my units are found in 3+ books. I would WAY rather have the units come with cards.

As for your business model, no cards is fine with free card sheets to download and paid for card packs as a separate item (think the data card packs except you know... having data cards.)

Either-or. Hell, both us fine with me!

I think for games like 40K it's kind of tough to have included cards, especially when their kits usually make multiple unit/vehicle types. It would probably get costly including cards for every option (not so much for them, but for us since it will be another excuse to crank up the prices). If they had an online army builder that spit out the cards for the units you want, that would be great, I'd even pay a small monthly fee for something like that. But they probably make more money on hardback books that are obsolete in a year, so if it ain't broke it won't get fixed.

For my games though, I think I'm gonna drop the cards going forward. Thanks for all the input I'll include cards while supplies last and we have lots of them for now, new models will be cardless with instructions on where to download them, along with blank cards or roster sheets for building your own guys from scratch.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
I think stat cards can be an improvement over having to get a rule book, especially if you are trying to keep buy-in cost low. That being said, there is the potential to run into problems if you release an updated rule or edition and then have a load of out of date stock.

I think Infinity's model, of an online army builder and PDF of the rules, is a pretty good solution. You can also then back that up with a hard copy main rulebook.

Came in to post this - for about a thousand reasons, Infinity's model is excellent in terms of game quality, incentivizing players to buy models, and production costs.

See, I wish Infinity had stat cards cause searching through a PDF or print out for a certain statline is a PITA. I'm making my own cards because it's so much easier than the way they do it officially.

I vote "Yes cards"

I don't really care as long as the rules themselves are reasonably priced, which GW aren't.

Ideally I'd just buy all the rulebooks necessary to play a game and so stat cards would be superfluous, especially if you're buying multiples of the same unit, so I guess no I would rather not have stat cards included with the models themselves.

Having a deck of stat cards you can buy separately and carry to a game would be cool though, so you don't have to go flipping through codices and rulebooks all the time.

But the main thing is making stuff reasonably priced. If adding stat cards adds 20% to the price of the models then absolutely hell no I don't want them in with the models. If everything is reasonably cheap I don't really care either way.

Definitely stat cards should NOT be a replacement for having all the rules consolidated in actual books.

Stat cards are a fine idea. I think that they are very useful in many contexts, but especially so as a means of bookkeeping during a game.

Personally, I like to have game rules immediately accessible, as in even more readily accessible than a printed rulebook. If you need to reference a rule, it should be right in front of you. Cards are a great way to do that. Is there a scenario effect in play, such as time of day (night/dawn/day/dusk)? Put the rules on a card, put the card on the table. Does a model have a special ability that will be used frequently? Put it on a card. Do you need to keep track of a unit/model's statistics (wounds/ammo/state/etc)? Track it on a card.

You've got a little bit more setup time with cards, and a measure of clutter, but once you are playing a game, cards tend to save a lot of time.

Cards are printed materials though, and printed materials have drawbacks. Printed materials don't change easily, they cost money to produce, and they typically have to be produced in volume. If you are going to do cards, you've got to produce more artwork. You've got to have a graphic designer. You've got to put effort into designing each individual card. So if you are looking to control costs, developing/printing cards isn't the way to do it.

For me, cards are a necessary evil. But I am a gamer and I develop my products for gamers. Cards are useful for a gamer. I expect that cards are less attractive to historical gamers because they tend to treat models and rules as fungible. A particular model might be used for many different games. The card that comes with the model is only useful in one particular game. That said, it is the easiest thing in the world to throw a card away. Even so, I expect that some folks would be chagrined if they felt that they had to pay extra for a component that they perceive as having no value. And there may be some guilt associated with throwing out a product component you feel that you paid good money for. If you don't throw out the card, you might resent feeling like you need to keep it around. That's the way the cookie crumbles.

But if you are going to have cards, you better darn well make them good cards. Bad cards are the worst. High quality paper, coated, with a core. It is terribly easy to devalue an otherwise high quality product by cheaping out on the printed materials. And if you are going to put all of that effort into designing the cards and paying for artwork, you shouldn't cut corners on the print.

If your game is good and your cards are good, customers will like as not be happy to have them in the product, even if all they do is appreciate your company's dedication to quality.