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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/31 02:39:03
Subject: GenCon threatens to leave Indiana
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Hangin' with Gork & Mork
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Dreadclaw69 wrote: Ahtman wrote:If you stop giving the appearance of conflating things then perhaps people will stop seeing you as doing such, until then I don't imagine crying wolf whenever you do that will make a big difference.
I have pointed out numerous times that I have said the laws are similar. I have at no point said that the laws were the same.
Oh the dog-whistle, do you hear it? Of course you didn't literally say they were the same, you just imply it left and right. The evidence actually shows you pretending they are the same then complaining about people noticing, not that you never have done it.
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Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/31 03:16:59
Subject: GenCon threatens to leave Indiana
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/03/what-makes-indianas-religious-freedom-law-different/388997/
True, there is no actual language that says, All businesses wishing to discriminate in employment, housing, and public accommodations on the basis of sexual orientation, please check this “religious objection” box. But, as Henry David Thoreau once wrote, “Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk.”
So—is the fuss over the Indiana law overblown?
No.
The statute shows every sign of having been carefully designed to put new obstacles in the path of equality; and it has been publicly sold with deceptive claims that it is “nothing new.”
The whole religious freedom thing is a dog whistle for wanting to discriminate against people who aren't Christian (As defined by the religious right, not by actual Christians). Same as State Rights was used as a dog whistle for segregation/slavery. .
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/31 03:19:17
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/31 03:41:30
Subject: GenCon threatens to leave Indiana
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Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests
Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.
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I just can't fathom why these sorts of laws exist. Do they exist in Canadia? The UK? Australia?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/31 03:51:18
Subject: GenCon threatens to leave Indiana
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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skyth wrote:http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/03/what-makes-indianas-religious-freedom-law-different/388997/
True, there is no actual language that says, All businesses wishing to discriminate in employment, housing, and public accommodations on the basis of sexual orientation, please check this “religious objection” box. But, as Henry David Thoreau once wrote, “Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk.”
So—is the fuss over the Indiana law overblown?
No.
The statute shows every sign of having been carefully designed to put new obstacles in the path of equality; and it has been publicly sold with deceptive claims that it is “nothing new.”
The whole religious freedom thing is a dog whistle for wanting to discriminate against people who aren't Christian (As defined by the religious right, not by actual Christians). Same as State Rights was used as a dog whistle for segregation/slavery. .
Uh... no.
You do realize that the Federal Law in '93 was passed in large part because of a Native Indian was fired because he tested postive for peoyte.
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Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/31 04:24:10
Subject: Re:GenCon threatens to leave Indiana
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Douglas Bader
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Prestor Jon wrote:I don't see how any business owner successfully argues in court that engaging in commerce with a member of the LGBT community meets that definition of "burden."
"My religion says that engaging in commerce with a member of the LGBT community is sin and god will punish it". The only way to say that this isn't a burden is to limit "burden" to mean "burden on mainstream Christianity" so that minority religious beliefs are excluded. Otherwise what right do you have to say that someone's religious belief is not burdened, if they say it is?
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/31 04:52:21
Subject: GenCon threatens to leave Indiana
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Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests
Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.
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I'd like to challenge those that say that. I want proof that a claim like "My religion says that engaging in commerce with a member of the LGBT community is sin and god will punish it" has anything to back it up.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/31 04:53:35
Subject: GenCon threatens to leave Indiana
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Douglas Bader
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H.B.M.C. wrote:I'd like to challenge those that say that. I want proof that a claim like "My religion says that engaging in commerce with a member of the LGBT community is sin and god will punish it" has anything to back it up.
What proof do you expect to find? A notarized transcript of the conversation the person had with god?
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/31 05:02:39
Subject: GenCon threatens to leave Indiana
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Kid_Kyoto
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Peregrine wrote:
What proof do you expect to find? A notarized transcript of the conversation the person had with god?
I would like one of these.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/31 05:39:55
Subject: GenCon threatens to leave Indiana
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Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests
Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.
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Peregrine wrote:What proof do you expect to find? A notarized transcript of the conversation the person had with god?
That'll do.
Any sort of specific scripture. An example of Jesus maybe interviewing for a 13th special friend and going "No homo!".
Any of those will suffice.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/31 05:43:15
Subject: GenCon threatens to leave Indiana
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Douglas Bader
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H.B.M.C. wrote:That'll do.
Any sort of specific scripture. An example of Jesus maybe interviewing for a 13th special friend and going "No homo!".
Any of those will suffice.
Oh, I see, so we're interpreting "religion" to mean "mainstream Christianity". What about the religions that don't have formal scripture or consider personal contact with god to be more important than scripture?
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/31 05:59:27
Subject: GenCon threatens to leave Indiana
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Steadfast Grey Hunter
Greater Portland Petting Zoo
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H.B.M.C. wrote: Peregrine wrote:What proof do you expect to find? A notarized transcript of the conversation the person had with god?
That'll do.
Any sort of specific scripture. An example of Jesus maybe interviewing for a 13th special friend and going "No homo!".
Any of those will suffice.
You'll find some fairly rank gak in Leviticus, particularly one nasty one about killing gay people, but you won't find anything like that from Christ's teachings. Dude really only had one rule, which was, pretty simply, 'don't be a dick'.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/31 06:05:50
Subject: GenCon threatens to leave Indiana
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Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests
Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.
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My point exactly Mr. Bread. These so-called followers of Jesus sully his name every day with their intolerance. The man accepted everyone, and made a point of accepting society's worst (not that I'm calling gay people today's society's worst, but you get what I mean). Their continued efforts to further segregate and discriminate people, all whilst hiding behind the paper shield of "Muh religious freedomz!" is just laughable.
The phrase "Jesus wept" is rather apt, IMO.
Peregrine wrote:Oh, I see, so we're interpreting "religion" to mean "mainstream Christianity". What about the religions that don't have formal scripture or consider personal contact with god to be more important than scripture?
You're a special guy Perry. I haven't known anyone at this site since perhaps Drew Riggo to the be the type to pick fights with people who agree with him.
Edited by RiTides
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/03/31 21:53:20
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/31 06:09:14
Subject: GenCon threatens to leave Indiana
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Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine
Oz
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Stonebeard wrote: H.B.M.C. wrote: Peregrine wrote:What proof do you expect to find? A notarized transcript of the conversation the person had with god?
That'll do.
Any sort of specific scripture. An example of Jesus maybe interviewing for a 13th special friend and going "No homo!".
Any of those will suffice.
You'll find some fairly rank gak in Leviticus, particularly one nasty one about killing gay people, but you won't find anything like that from Christ's teachings. Dude really only had one rule, which was, pretty simply, 'don't be a dick'.
Leviticus is where it gets entertaining. Proof that god has a sense of humour.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/31 06:23:16
Subject: GenCon threatens to leave Indiana
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Douglas Bader
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H.B.M.C. wrote:You're a special guy Perry. I haven't known anyone at this site since perhaps Drew Riggo to the be the type to pick fights with people who agree with him.
Now I'm just confused. In your original post about asking for proof of the "my religion says to put up a 'straight only' sign" claim it seemed like you were repeating a claim made elsewhere in discussions about this kind of law, that anyone claiming that {thing mainstream Christianity has no problem with} is against their religion won't be able to prove it in court because obviously their religion isn't a "real" religion. Perhaps you could clarify exactly what your position is and how it relates to my original post that you quoted from?
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/31 09:16:37
Subject: GenCon threatens to leave Indiana
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Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions
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skyth wrote:http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/03/what-makes-indianas-religious-freedom-law-different/388997/
True, there is no actual language that says, All businesses wishing to discriminate in employment, housing, and public accommodations on the basis of sexual orientation, please check this “religious objection” box. But, as Henry David Thoreau once wrote, “Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk.”
So—is the fuss over the Indiana law overblown?
No.
The statute shows every sign of having been carefully designed to put new obstacles in the path of equality; and it has been publicly sold with deceptive claims that it is “nothing new.”
The whole religious freedom thing is a dog whistle for wanting to discriminate against people who aren't Christian (As defined by the religious right, not by actual Christians). Same as State Rights was used as a dog whistle for segregation/slavery. .
Your claim overlooks the fact that Indiana, like many other states (and the federal government) does not currently recognize sexual orientation as a protected class. So if someone actually wanted to discriminate based on sexual orientation then they could have done so before this legislation.
It also ignores the point that to date there has been no successful use of any RFRA to permit discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/31 09:31:17
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/31 10:36:20
Subject: GenCon threatens to leave Indiana
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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H.B.M.C. wrote:I just can't fathom why these sorts of laws exist. Do they exist in Canadia? The UK? Australia? Australia has laws? I thought they just had thunderdome. Frazzled is disappoint.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/31 10:36:42
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/31 11:03:10
Subject: GenCon threatens to leave Indiana
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Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests
Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.
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Frazzled wrote: H.B.M.C. wrote:I just can't fathom why these sorts of laws exist. Do they exist in Canadia? The UK? Australia?
Australia has laws? I thought they just had thunderdome. Frazzled is disappoint.
How do you think our laws are decided?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/31 11:09:04
Subject: GenCon threatens to leave Indiana
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Point taken.
"Two men enter. one man leaves! Thunderdome!"
-Australia
"One man enters. No toilet leaves!"
-TexMex
An excellent article discussing the issue and future permutations.
http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/03/30/questions-for-indianas-critics/?_r=0
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/31 13:28:56
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/31 13:39:51
Subject: GenCon threatens to leave Indiana
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Regular Dakkanaut
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H.B.M.C. wrote:I just can't fathom why these sorts of laws exist. Do they exist in Canadia? The UK? Australia?
There's actually a good reason behind the 1993 era RFRAs. There was a series of supreme court case where Native American religious rights where coming up against generally applicable laws. The supreme court decided that under the current laws it was an all or nothing affair. Either you had the follow all the laws or you could claim your religion could get you out of paying taxes. The government was having none of that. One of the rulings basically told Congress they needed to do something about this.
Even as a non-religious person I see the benefit in not allowing the government to compel people to violate their beliefs for no good reason.
These new RFRAs are being pushed in an entirely different context. First Hobby Lobby broadened who can use a RFRA based defense. Second, a New Mexico case ruled that RFRA based defenses could not be used in suits where the government was not a party. The subtle differences in the newer laws like Indiana's are all about opening up who can claim a religious defense further(specifically public-for-profit cooperations) and allowing the law to be used in circumstances where the government is not involved in the litigation.
It's telling that language to ensure that the bill cannot be used for discrimination is usually rejected, and when it doe get added, kills the bill's Republican support. They also misjudged what for-profit companies want. Most have see the PR benefits of being inclusive.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/31 13:44:04
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/31 14:38:43
Subject: Re:GenCon threatens to leave Indiana
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Peregrine wrote:Prestor Jon wrote:I don't see how any business owner successfully argues in court that engaging in commerce with a member of the LGBT community meets that definition of "burden."
"My religion says that engaging in commerce with a member of the LGBT community is sin and god will punish it". The only way to say that this isn't a burden is to limit "burden" to mean "burden on mainstream Christianity" so that minority religious beliefs are excluded. Otherwise what right do you have to say that someone's religious belief is not burdened, if they say it is?
The right to evaluate the degree of burden is given to the Indiana court system as specified by the law. The business owner would have to prove in court that being compelled to engage in commerce with a member of the LGBT community either inhibited/prevented that business owner from adhering to their religious practices or that engaging in commerce with a member of the LGBT community was a violation of their religiouis practices. In the past 20 years, none of the successful claims made in regards to RFRA laws both federal and state have happened on such specious grounds. Not one case sets a precedent with the bar being set so low as to allow anyone to claim any religious belief they want and win in court.
IF somebody in Indiana manages to set that precedent in court then you'd have an argument but there is literally no instance of your hypothetical example ever happening to date.
In all of the successful defenses claiming RFRA protection have occurred when the state is compelling somebody to act against their conscious. Native Americans who want to be able to take peyote during religious ceremonies and not get fired for failing a drug test, a Muslim prisoner who doesn't want to have to shave his beard, owners of a closely held corporation who don't want to have to pay for "abortificants" as part of their health insurance plan, etc. The business owner in your hypothetical example would have to prove that he/she is somehow being compelled to engage in commerce with a member of the LGBT community. Since there is no federal law or Indiana state law that classifies LGBT people as a protected class how can a business owner be compelled to sell them goods/services in the first place?
As has been said before RFRA laws are a shield, they are meant to protect citizens from being compelled by the state to violate their religious beliefs. If there is no law compelling business owners to interact with LGBT people then there is no attack on the religious beliefs of the owners that would require them to use RFRA law as a shield.
The hypothetical Indiana business owner has to prove in court that 1) he/she has a closely held religious belief and 2) that he/she is being compelled to violate that belief or that belief is being unjustly inhibited/prohibited. The next time that is successfully done in a courtroom in Indiana will be the first time that's been done in a courtroom in US history.
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Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/31 17:17:33
Subject: Re:GenCon threatens to leave Indiana
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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Shields can be used to bash.
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For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/31 17:43:35
Subject: Re:GenCon threatens to leave Indiana
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Only good shields. Crappy wicker basket shields are strictly meh.
This is the kind of shield you need if you want to BASH!
http://www.brianbero.com/romanshields.html
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/31 17:54:00
Subject: Re:GenCon threatens to leave Indiana
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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No one has yet proven that RFRA has been used as a weapon.
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Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/31 18:09:34
Subject: Re:GenCon threatens to leave Indiana
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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To be fair, it's all down to how "substantial burden" is defined anyway. I find it rather sloppy to create a law with nebulously defined concepts that could have profound implications depending on how they're interpreted (looking at you, Second Amendment).
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For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/31 18:40:20
Subject: Re:GenCon threatens to leave Indiana
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Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions
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AlmightyWalrus wrote:To be fair, it's all down to how "substantial burden" is defined anyway. I find it rather sloppy to create a law with nebulously defined concepts that could have profound implications depending on how they're interpreted (looking at you, Second Amendment).
It is established by case law; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherbert_v._Verner
In Sherbert, the Court set out a three-prong test for courts to use in determining whether the government has violated an individual's constitutionally-protected right to the free exercise of religion.
The first prong investigates whether government has burdened the individual's free exercise of religion. If government confronts an individual with a choice that pressures the individual to forego a religious practice, whether by imposing a penalty or withholding a benefit, then the government has burdened the individual's free exercise of religion.
However, under this test not all burdens placed on religious exercise are unconstitutional. If the first prong is passed, the government may still constitutionally impose the burden on the individual's free exercise if the government can show
it possesses some compelling state interest that justifies the infringement; and
no alternative form of regulation can avoid the infringement and still achieve the state's end.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/31 18:43:06
Subject: GenCon threatens to leave Indiana
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Thane of Dol Guldur
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<Self-deleted for being too off topic>
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/31 18:45:37
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/31 19:46:14
Subject: GenCon threatens to leave Indiana
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Dakka Veteran
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Btw, just saw that Kentucky (where I'm at) has almost the same RF law as Indiana.
Amongst other things, Amish, etc. then don't need reflectors on their buggies, etc.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/31 21:00:56
Subject: GenCon threatens to leave Indiana
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Thane of Dol Guldur
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KiloFiX wrote:Btw, just saw that Kentucky (where I'm at) has almost the same RF law as Indiana.
Amongst other things, Amish, etc. then don't need reflectors on their buggies, etc.
There's actually ~20 states with similar laws on the books. This go-round seems to have been somewhat of a tipping point in public opinion. The governor has basically been forced by economic threats to make sure the bill is amended to explicitly say that it can't be used as justification to discriminate, which will remove whatever teeth the bill had. Hell, a conservative Republican governor stated in reference to homosexuals that they should not be mistreated for "who they love." This seems to me like new language on this issue from the right...the Governor is suddenly using the rhetoric of the Civil Rights movement.
It will be interesting to see once the Indiana bill is amended, repealed, or replaced, if the same kind of pressure is then applied to the the other states.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/31 21:02:41
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/31 21:04:12
Subject: GenCon threatens to leave Indiana
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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jasper76 wrote: KiloFiX wrote:Btw, just saw that Kentucky (where I'm at) has almost the same RF law as Indiana.
Amongst other things, Amish, etc. then don't need reflectors on their buggies, etc.
There's actually ~20 states with similar laws on the books. This go-round seems to have been somewhat of a tipping point in public opinion. The governor has basically been forced by economic threats to make sure the bill is amended to explicitly say that it can't be used as justification to discriminate, which will remove whatever teeth the bill had. Hell, a conservative Republican governor stated in reference to homosexuals that they should not be mistreated for "who they love." This seems to me like new language on this issue from the right...the Governor is suddenly using the rhetoric of the Civil Rights movement.
It will be interesting to see once the Indiana bill is amended, repealed, or replaced, if the same kind of pressure is then applied to the the other states.
And these line of thinkings is that path to facism.
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Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/31 21:04:58
Subject: GenCon threatens to leave Indiana
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Thane of Dol Guldur
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It's not my line of thinking per se, it is Governor Pence's.
Or do I misundertand you? Care to clarify what line of thinking you are referring to?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/31 21:06:37
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