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 ultimentra wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

 ultimentra wrote:
The Auspex is a trade off, do you spend 39 points on another Vanguard with a plasma caliver, or do spend 55 on a techmarine with an Auspex? Or 65 if you go for a Sang. Priest?

If you're bringing Flesh Tearers, you need an HQ anyway (presumably a Sanguinary Priest as it helps the few "tax" Blood Angels that much better), so an Auspex seems like an easy investment. Its a relatively token amount of points, that combined with Lumingen, and an Omnispex, essentially makes your army, or a unit that really needs it, ignores cover.

I disagree, I think 65 points is too much for a model which functionally does nothing but provide an Auspex. Can anyone here do some quick math hammer on 6 plasma caliver shots, Omni and Auspex vs. 9 Plasma caliver shots with only an omni against MEQ in cover, or jinking marine bikers?

it depends on what cover. 4+ cover is pretty easy to deal with. It becomes 5+ cover and you would rather have more shots than it become 6+

but for 2+ cover shenanagins, shrouded and stealth junk. 2+ cover becames 3+. Having 50% more shots is the same as making the cover 4+....

but if the cover is rerollable.. remove as much cover as possible if you want to do damage.

Doesn't the Priest give 5+ FNP? That's another bonus besides the auspex thing

Super Newb wrote:
Doesn't the Priest give 5+ FNP? That's another bonus besides the auspex thing

only to BA units.

Also on most mechanicus stuff that already has 5+ or 6+ fnp it isnt as huge as it is to assault marines.

He gives everyone in his unit fnp. its the ws bonus that is ba only

So what's everyone's thoughts on using a Crusader with some Skits at 1500 points?

I already have a Paladin and an Errant and the only thing that really tempts me with the new kit is the Crusader. Here's what I've got:
Knight Crusader - Avenger Gatling Cannon, 2x Heavy Stubbers, Heavy Flamer, Rapid-fire Battle Cannon, Stormspear Rocket Pod

10x Vanguard - 3x Arc Rifles, Arc Pistol, Taser Goad, Conversion Field
10x Vanguard - 3x Plasma Calivers, Phosphor Blast Pistol, Taser Goad, Conversion Field, Omni-spex (WARLORD)
10x Rangers - 2x Arquebus, Omni-spex
5x Sicaran Infiltrators - Taser Goads & Flechette Blasters, Infoslave Skull, Conversion Field
Onagers x2 - Neutron Lasers, Extra Cognis Heavy Stubber

your infiltrators won't last as the only assault unit. they have basically no place in an otherwise completely shooty list.

On the other hand - anyone got any clue how the skitarii and Cult Mechanicus could mesh? Using both sounds like a no brainer - but what wholes could one fix on the other ones setup?
So far I don't see any synergy between the two..

Those grav cannon tread guys are good. And they are troops! And a couple of those squads to your Skitarii force...

That way you can take out tough MCs at range...

Skitarii seem to rely on Onagers and Plasma to punch through 3+/2+ armor. Meanwhile, Cult seems to have to go out of their way to not have AP3 at least.

 Thairne wrote:
your infiltrators won't last as the only assault unit. they have basically no place in an otherwise completely shooty list.

On the other hand - anyone got any clue how the skitarii and Cult Mechanicus could mesh? Using both sounds like a no brainer - but what wholes could one fix on the other ones setup?
So far I don't see any synergy between the two..

Vanguard provide wonderful anti horde that thus far it looks like Cult Mech lack.
Havent seen anything i loved in cult mech for CC, although robot ninjas arent my favorite either, I think infiltrators are good enough to be feilded with cult mech.
Cult Mech seem to do long ranged anti heavy infantry really well, and long range anti tank better than Skitarii.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Skitarii seem to rely on Onagers and Plasma to punch through 3+/2+ armor. Meanwhile, Cult seems to have to go out of their way to not have AP3 at least.

yes, basically that. It seems like cult mech would have some trouble with hordes. They have a fair number of units that can take flamers, even some with torrent flamers, but they are kinda expensive for how many flamers you get. You dont want to be depending on grav weapons and heavy phosphor blasters to take out mobs of shoota boyz.

Some combination of Vanguards w/ Arc Rifles, Eradication/Icarus Onagers, Kataphron Destroyers w/ Grav, and possible Phosphor Kastelans (though with Kataphron Grav, Kastelans lose value).

 Thairne wrote:
your infiltrators won't last as the only assault unit. they have basically no place in an otherwise completely shooty list.

On the other hand - anyone got any clue how the skitarii and Cult Mechanicus could mesh? Using both sounds like a no brainer - but what wholes could one fix on the other ones setup?
So far I don't see any synergy between the two..

Skitarii provide lots of bodies and specialty weapons. The only heavy weapons are on Onagers.

Cult Mechanicus provides low body/high toughness setup with lots of heavy weapons. There seem to only be a few specialty weapons, and none as good as Skitarii.

That right there should be good enough synergy. Skitarii is massed dudes and Haywire/Plasma units, backing up the low model count heavy weapon units of Grav Destroyers and Robots. It looks like we'll have some overlap with the Ruststalker/Infiltrators and Electropriest variants, though.

I wonder, is there any reason to take anything other than grav on those robots? Skitarii supplies enough haywire already, the torsion cannon is only one shot, and the plasma weapon is not as good as the grab cannon...

Super Newb wrote:
I wonder, is there any reason to take anything other than grav on those robots? Skitarii supplies enough haywire already, the torsion cannon is only one shot, and the plasma weapon is not as good as the grab cannon...

If there is, I don't see it. Unless we see a stark rise in unarmored, high wound count MCs.

Super Newb wrote:
I wonder, is there any reason to take anything other than grav on those robots? Skitarii supplies enough haywire already, the torsion cannon is only one shot, and the plasma weapon is not as good as the grab cannon...

I think the haywire breachers might see some use. Vanguard are pretty good at providing haywire, but have a 24" range and double tap of 12". They also are going to be your primary anti horde, you dont want to waste your radguns shooting at a vehicle. The heavy arc gun has 36" threat range and 2 shots all the way out to that range.

But grav is still the best option, just not sure if it will be the ONLY option.
The plasma and torsion guns are cute, but not enough to compete.

Super Newb wrote:
I wonder, is there any reason to take anything other than grav on those robots? Skitarii supplies enough haywire already, the torsion cannon is only one shot, and the plasma weapon is not as good as the grab cannon...

If you face a lot of Guard, Daemons, Orks, etc, then Grav is pretty bad and Plasma is likely as good or better. If you face a lot of straight up vehicle lists, Breachers might be better because Grav only does anything on 6s.

But as a generalist weapon? Grav is the best. You get anti-horde or anti-vehicle better elsewhere as well. Take the Grav, and if they're useless in a given matchup, then the rest of your army should make up for it.

Eh, Grav also has three times as many shots per model. Doubt it's much worse than the Heavy Arc Rifles at AV.

Should be noted that the arc and torsion guns can only be taken with the 3+ armor troops, while the 4+ armor ones can choose between plasma or grav. Might tip the balance for someone. I still see the grav as best personally...

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Eh, Grav also has three times as many shots per model. Doubt it's much worse than the Heavy Arc Rifles at AV.

Grav gets 6 shots at BS4 = 3 hits doing things on 6 = .5 HPs
Arc get 2 shots at BS4 = 1 hit doing things on 2+ = 8.33 HPs (chance to pen as well)

Not much worse, but Haywire is much more reliable on the Glance/Pen front. Breachers are also 15 points cheaper and have better armor, so keep that in mind.

Grav is the better all around weapon by far, but against purely vehicles Arc is a consideration to be taken. But, like I said, Grav is also again better because you can get anti-vehicle from lots of other places (namely Skitarii or SM Allies).

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Eh, Grav also has three times as many shots per model. Doubt it's much worse than the Heavy Arc Rifles at AV.

Cult robots are BS 3.

18 grav shots, 9 hit, average 1.5 6s rolled.
6 arc shots, 3 hit, average 2.5 hps removed (5/6 of hits strip a hp with haywire rule)

Arc is definitely better at taking out vehicles. But of course grav is much better at killing things with a 2+ or 3+ save

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Eh, Grav also has three times as many shots per model. Doubt it's much worse than the Heavy Arc Rifles at AV.

.16 of grav hits lead to a hull point
.86 of haywire hits lead to a hull point

3 times as many shots bring the grav per shot to .5 which still isnt as good as .86

You get the immobilized results as well, but the haywire will get a few Pens.
The haywire also comes on breachers, who have a 3+ save, which will save them from heavybolter/autocannon spam.

But then you also have secondary weapons. Breachers have CC claws while destroyers have flamer or phosphor rifles.

Grav isn't bad at anti vehicle, haywire is just better. Where that mass grav comes into play though is against elite units and monstrous/gargantuan creatures. one group of 3 kataphrons with grav has a decent chance of outright killing a wraithknight in one volley

 gameandwatch wrote:
Grav isn't bad at anti vehicle, haywire is just better. Where that mass grav comes into play though is against elite units and monstrous/gargantuan creatures. one group of 3 kataphrons with grav has a decent chance of outright killing a wraithknight in one volley

Word. Grav dude troops from cult mech along with a bunch of skitarii with arc rifles can handle everything but flying stuff. Seems like a good combo to me.

Without the supposed +1 BS formation, a unit of 3 Grav Destroyers do 4 wounds to a double D gun Wraithknight, or 2.6 wounds to one with an Invuln save. If it's one with the double D, your base 2 Troops choices can easily get you a Wraithknight OTK, while it only needs a bit higher than statistical rolling to get one with an Invuln save.

If that formation is true, then that's 5.33 wounds to non-Invuln and 3.5 to one with an Invuln, and they can't "toe in cover". That's one of the best choices for killing a WK that I've seen.

Requizen wrote:
Without the supposed +1 BS formation, a unit of 3 Grav Destroyers do 4 wounds to a double D gun Wraithknight, or 2.6 wounds to one with an Invuln save. If it's one with the double D, your base 2 Troops choices can easily get you a Wraithknight OTK, while it only needs a bit higher than statistical rolling to get one with an Invuln save.

If that formation is true, then that's 5.33 wounds to non-Invuln and 3.5 to one with an Invuln, and they can't "toe in cover". That's one of the best choices for killing a WK that I've seen.

All at 30" range as well, it really is quite disgusting

 gameandwatch wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Without the supposed +1 BS formation, a unit of 3 Grav Destroyers do 4 wounds to a double D gun Wraithknight, or 2.6 wounds to one with an Invuln save. If it's one with the double D, your base 2 Troops choices can easily get you a Wraithknight OTK, while it only needs a bit higher than statistical rolling to get one with an Invuln save.

If that formation is true, then that's 5.33 wounds to non-Invuln and 3.5 to one with an Invuln, and they can't "toe in cover". That's one of the best choices for killing a WK that I've seen.

All at 30" range as well, it really is quite disgusting

On the flip side they only have a 4+ armor save. And no real ablative wounds. Cause 2 wounds, you kill a third of the squad.
On the flip flip side they are troops and a person could take 4 squads of these or more...

While I appreciate the HP differences in Grav vs Arc (and I ran the math, though thank you for the posts - also account that Grav needs only 2 hits out of ~9 to result in 6's to drop 3HP, Arc needs 3 out of ~3 2+ results, referencing min squads of 3, and yes I know the latter is more likely), the point was that they were comparable enough that the more versatile option (Grav) would be preferable to take. As in, why take a dedicated Arc Rifle Breacher squad when a Destroyer squad with Grav can do that, and kill 2+ infantry, and kill MCs, etc.

Super Newb wrote:

 gameandwatch wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Without the supposed +1 BS formation, a unit of 3 Grav Destroyers do 4 wounds to a double D gun Wraithknight, or 2.6 wounds to one with an Invuln save. If it's one with the double D, your base 2 Troops choices can easily get you a Wraithknight OTK, while it only needs a bit higher than statistical rolling to get one with an Invuln save.

If that formation is true, then that's 5.33 wounds to non-Invuln and 3.5 to one with an Invuln, and they can't "toe in cover". That's one of the best choices for killing a WK that I've seen.

All at 30" range as well, it really is quite disgusting

On the flip side they only have a 4+ armor save. And no real ablative wounds. Cause 2 wounds, you kill a third of the squad.
On the flip flip side they are troops and a person could take 4 squads of these or more...

It also depends on how much and how many with the HQs (how much they cost, how many can we take). Yeah 4+ save is meh, but at t5 they are harder to wound and can fire most guns at a safe distance. Just thinking of the alpha strike potential... especially with the ignores cover formation... is...just...DUMB I am really likely the synergy of Ad Mech and skitarii, skitarii provides the fast assault options and anti-horde/ vehicle troops, where as ad mech provides that first turn long range firepower and weapons to engage elite units and deathstars. The threat saturation is really quite incredible and will really force opponents to think hard as to what they should engage. Skitarii/ ad mech in my opinion have one of the best alpha strike armies in the game, with a great tool for pretty much any circumstance.

exsanguis wrote:So what's everyone's thoughts on using a Crusader with some Skits at 1500 points?

I already have a Paladin and an Errant and the only thing that really tempts me with the new kit is the Crusader. Here's what I've got:
Knight Crusader - Avenger Gatling Cannon, 2x Heavy Stubbers, Heavy Flamer, Rapid-fire Battle Cannon, Stormspear Rocket Pod

10x Vanguard - 3x Arc Rifles, Arc Pistol, Taser Goad, Conversion Field
10x Vanguard - 3x Plasma Calivers, Phosphor Blast Pistol, Taser Goad, Conversion Field, Omni-spex (WARLORD)
10x Rangers - 2x Arquebus, Omni-spex
5x Sicaran Infiltrators - Taser Goads & Flechette Blasters, Infoslave Skull, Conversion Field
Onagers x2 - Neutron Lasers, Extra Cognis Heavy Stubber

Thairne wrote:your infiltrators won't last as the only assault unit. they have basically no place in an otherwise completely shooty list.

On the other hand - anyone got any clue how the skitarii and Cult Mechanicus could mesh? Using both sounds like a no brainer - but what wholes could one fix on the other ones setup?
So far I don't see any synergy between the two..

Thairne I would actually disagree, as the role of Infiltratoris is not necessarily to be a beatstick and threaten the enemy in CC. That role is reserved for Ruststalkers and Dragoons. Infiltrators perform best when outflanking (utilizing that nifty 10pt upgrade) in order to contest an opponents backfield, the place where they will likely have their weakest objective-holder units such as scouts, cultists, or kroot. The 9'' move will allow them to easily contest or capture backfield objectives and charge that backfield objective holder unit, or for example an artillery unit or vehicle that needs to sit in the opponents deployment zone.

For real though, what exactly is Cvv?

 Jambles wrote:
For real though, what exactly is Cvv?

I think it's funny a spam bot posted in a thread about ad mech bots lol