Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:
I built my 1 Onager as a Neutron Laser. This was most likely a mistake.

Ugh. Stop theoryhammering and actually play.

Yeah, a single Neutron Laser isn't great by itself when facing huge amounts of armor or monstrous creatures.
But it is still good, especially when you field it as part of the Skitarii Maniple formation and use everything in synchronization.

I used it. It killed one Zoanthrope and ate the fire from a double devourer Flyrant. I think it may also have killed some Gaunts.
Don't assume that 100% of the time I'm operating on theory.

 Wingeds wrote:
So I'm taking the general consensus is to take Kataphrons over Kastelans MCs? I haven't been following rumor out there so am a bit behind.

I feel like the MCs might fill the niche of a fire magnet, but if their points cost and what sort of weaponry bring to the table don't justify the cost, then they're a wash. I'm not entirely sold on the models yet either. I need to see some nice conversions of their goofy heads before I commit.

Kataphrons though, I can get all on board with them. They seem relatively sturdy with T5, and grav is icing on the cake. I deal with a lot of SM players in my area, so grav never underperforms. I might have to grab a box or 2.

Really interested in what roll the Priests will fill. 3 CC units seems a bit much in such a small army. Ad Mech with both armies taken into account still feels a bit off as a full army, if the rumors of them being combined are to be trusted. A few more weird vehicles would really round them out I think.

Also ordered my first Onager. I'll get 2 more as soon as funds allow, but how should I load it out as a single guy? Icarus? I'm hoping it's easy to magnetize into all variants, but we'll see.

Kataphrons are great. Amazing Troops choice, only downside (if you can call it that) is the weak 4+ and BS4 if not in the Formation.

But I'm still not counting out Kastelans. They're different slots, and they fill different roles. And a T7 3W 3+/5++(sometimes FNP) MC with a 2+ character is pretty darn great. And one that can fire 6-9 S6 AP3 guns is amazing, and at 6" more than the Kataphrons. Against Lightly Armored targets, it's going to out damage the Grav Guns, and it also doubles out Eldar, Dark Eldar, little Tyranids, and Guard, which is nice.

Just because the Kataphron is the best at taking out heavily armored MCs and Wraithknights doesn't mean that the rest of the codex doesn't stand up to it

Requizen wrote:

 Wingeds wrote:
So I'm taking the general consensus is to take Kataphrons over Kastelans MCs? I haven't been following rumor out there so am a bit behind.

I feel like the MCs might fill the niche of a fire magnet, but if their points cost and what sort of weaponry bring to the table don't justify the cost, then they're a wash. I'm not entirely sold on the models yet either. I need to see some nice conversions of their goofy heads before I commit.

Kataphrons though, I can get all on board with them. They seem relatively sturdy with T5, and grav is icing on the cake. I deal with a lot of SM players in my area, so grav never underperforms. I might have to grab a box or 2.

Really interested in what roll the Priests will fill. 3 CC units seems a bit much in such a small army. Ad Mech with both armies taken into account still feels a bit off as a full army, if the rumors of them being combined are to be trusted. A few more weird vehicles would really round them out I think.

Also ordered my first Onager. I'll get 2 more as soon as funds allow, but how should I load it out as a single guy? Icarus? I'm hoping it's easy to magnetize into all variants, but we'll see.

Kataphrons are great. Amazing Troops choice, only downside (if you can call it that) is the weak 4+ and BS4 if not in the Formation.

But I'm still not counting out Kastelans. They're different slots, and they fill different roles. And a T7 3W 3+/5++(sometimes FNP) MC with a 2+ character is pretty darn great. And one that can fire 6-9 S6 AP3 guns is amazing, and at 6" more than the Kataphrons. Against Lightly Armored targets, it's going to out damage the Grav Guns, and it also doubles out Eldar, Dark Eldar, little Tyranids, and Guard, which is nice.

Just because the Kataphron is the best at taking out heavily armored MCs and Wraithknights doesn't mean that the rest of the codex doesn't stand up to it

This is an important note. Kastelans do fill a role within a Cult Mechanicus army. The only reason I'm skeptical about them is due to combining Cult with Skitarii.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 Wingeds wrote:
So I'm taking the general consensus is to take Kataphrons over Kastelans MCs? I haven't been following rumor out there so am a bit behind.

I feel like the MCs might fill the niche of a fire magnet, but if their points cost and what sort of weaponry bring to the table don't justify the cost, then they're a wash. I'm not entirely sold on the models yet either. I need to see some nice conversions of their goofy heads before I commit.

Kataphrons though, I can get all on board with them. They seem relatively sturdy with T5, and grav is icing on the cake. I deal with a lot of SM players in my area, so grav never underperforms. I might have to grab a box or 2.

Really interested in what roll the Priests will fill. 3 CC units seems a bit much in such a small army. Ad Mech with both armies taken into account still feels a bit off as a full army, if the rumors of them being combined are to be trusted. A few more weird vehicles would really round them out I think.

Also ordered my first Onager. I'll get 2 more as soon as funds allow, but how should I load it out as a single guy? Icarus? I'm hoping it's easy to magnetize into all variants, but we'll see.

Kataphrons are great. Amazing Troops choice, only downside (if you can call it that) is the weak 4+ and BS4 if not in the Formation.

But I'm still not counting out Kastelans. They're different slots, and they fill different roles. And a T7 3W 3+/5++(sometimes FNP) MC with a 2+ character is pretty darn great. And one that can fire 6-9 S6 AP3 guns is amazing, and at 6" more than the Kataphrons. Against Lightly Armored targets, it's going to out damage the Grav Guns, and it also doubles out Eldar, Dark Eldar, little Tyranids, and Guard, which is nice.

Just because the Kataphron is the best at taking out heavily armored MCs and Wraithknights doesn't mean that the rest of the codex doesn't stand up to it

This is an important note. Kastelans do fill a role within a Cult Mechanicus army. The only reason I'm skeptical about them is due to combining Cult with Skitarii.

With Skitarii, they share the "high strength low AP" shooting with Plasma Vanguard and Onagers.

Plasma Vanguard are more numerous, more shots, etc. But, they're also squishier, prone to die to blasts/templates, and shorter ranged. Somewhat solved with Drop Pods, of course.
Onagers like I said, are vehicles. I still dislike vehicles, MCs are better in most situations. They're durable vehicles with Invulns, but every time I use a vehicle, suddenly a Lance or Melta or Hammerhead or Hawire whatever drops down and kills it in one round of shooting. That rarely happens to MCs outside of ID guns (which are fairly rare).

Not saying they're better, but they're worth considering for the same role. And I like that, choices are always better than an obvious #1

Requizen wrote:
With Skitarii, they share the "high strength low AP" shooting with Plasma Vanguard and Onagers.

Plasma Vanguard are more numerous, more shots, etc. But, they're also squishier, prone to die to blasts/templates, and shorter ranged. Somewhat solved with Drop Pods, of course.
Onagers like I said, are vehicles. I still dislike vehicles, MCs are better in most situations. They're durable vehicles with Invulns, but every time I use a vehicle, suddenly a Lance or Melta or Hammerhead or Hawire whatever drops down and kills it in one round of shooting. That rarely happens to MCs outside of ID guns (which are fairly rare).

Not saying they're better, but they're worth considering for the same role. And I like that, choices are always better than an obvious #1

Very true. This slots more into the same situation as Necrons and Eldar (moreso Eldar). Several selections, all of which are good. My only trepidation (as previously mentioned) is that the anti heavy infantry/MC role is fulfilled cheaper by the (admittedly squishier) Kataphrons, anti horde/GEQ by Vanguards, AV by Arc Weaponry (Vanguards, Breachers) / Onagers (Neutron) / Grav (Destroyers), AA by Onagers (Icarus). So, with that interpretation of army composition, Kastelans pay a versatility price to be capable of several roles while other options do each individual component better (either by having higher model count, shot count, etc).

 obsidiankatana wrote:

Requizen wrote:
With Skitarii, they share the "high strength low AP" shooting with Plasma Vanguard and Onagers.

Plasma Vanguard are more numerous, more shots, etc. But, they're also squishier, prone to die to blasts/templates, and shorter ranged. Somewhat solved with Drop Pods, of course.
Onagers like I said, are vehicles. I still dislike vehicles, MCs are better in most situations. They're durable vehicles with Invulns, but every time I use a vehicle, suddenly a Lance or Melta or Hammerhead or Hawire whatever drops down and kills it in one round of shooting. That rarely happens to MCs outside of ID guns (which are fairly rare).

Not saying they're better, but they're worth considering for the same role. And I like that, choices are always better than an obvious #1

Very true. This slots more into the same situation as Necrons and Eldar (moreso Eldar). Several selections, all of which are good. My only trepidation (as previously mentioned) is that the anti heavy infantry/MC role is fulfilled cheaper by the (admittedly squishier) Kataphrons, anti horde/GEQ by Vanguards, AV by Arc Weaponry (Vanguards, Breachers) / Onagers (Neutron) / Grav (Destroyers), AA by Onagers (Icarus). So, with that interpretation of army composition, Kastelans pay a versatility price to be capable of several roles while other options do each individual component better (either by having higher model count, shot count, etc).

True, and that's a really cool way to play it! I love that Ad Mech only has a handful of units out and we're already seeing so much variance.

Truly. I'd like to investigate AdMech assault, as well. Breachers with Kastelans and Priests supported by outflanking Infiltrators and scouting Dragoons and Ruststalkers. Minimum Vanguard teams with Arc Rifles for AV duty. I think, while it may be far from the most powerful build, it'd be a fun list to take for a spin.

I think that kastelans will be better for a TAC list because they can fill so many roles with the same basic load-out.

If you're tailoring, they aren't as effective.

 TranSpyre wrote:
I think that kastelans will be better for a TAC list because they can fill so many roles with the same basic load-out.

If you're tailoring, they aren't as effective.

Well sure, but you needn't tailor to a specific list. Tailor your unit selections to other unit types. As in - ensure you have an answer for AV, GEQ, MEQ, TEQ, Flyers, MCs, and Hordes. Once done - if points allow, add Kastelans - as they can pad weaknesses.

I've always had a secret fetish with punishing airborne units with ground-based air defense units, both in video games and in Table Top Games.

Do you think the Onager is now the best unit for that? Or is it the Manticore Sky Eagle still?

Unfamiliar with FW variants.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Unfamiliar with FW variants.

The Manticore Sky Eagle is a STR 9 AP2 Ordnance 1 missile that is twin-linked against flyers and has skyfire.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Unfamiliar with FW variants.

The Manticore Sky Eagle is a STR 9 AP2 Ordnance 1 missile that is twin-linked against flyers and has skyfire.

How many points? Onager would be better, imo. Many more shots, some TL, some Interceptor, some ignore cover, some AP2. While buffing army Ld on Doctrina use and coming with an invul.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Truly. I'd like to investigate AdMech assault, as well. Breachers with Kastelans and Priests supported by outflanking Infiltrators and scouting Dragoons and Ruststalkers. Minimum Vanguard teams with Arc Rifles for AV duty. I think, while it may be far from the most powerful build, it'd be a fun list to take for a spin.

Also, we can wait and see what happens with Electropriests as far as Assault goes. Supposedly there's a CC variant, but then again, the Breacher was supposed to be a "Assault" version of the Destroyer, so who knows what that means.

Rustsalkers are amazing though.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:
I built my 1 Onager as a Neutron Laser. This was most likely a mistake.

Ugh. Stop theoryhammering and actually play.

Yeah, a single Neutron Laser isn't great by itself when facing huge amounts of armor or monstrous creatures.
But it is still good, especially when you field it as part of the Skitarii Maniple formation and use everything in synchronization.

I'll actually be fielding single neutron tomorrow. Escalation league kicking up from 500 too 700pts.

5x Rangers w/ 2x Arquebus
10x Vanguard w/ 2x Arc rifle
5x Ruststalkers w/ Claws, Dataspike & Conv Field on Princeps
3x Dragoons w/ Phosphor
1x Onager w/ Neutron

I'll report back how it goes.

I really like the Onager with Neutron. The ability to double out T5 models is really nice. With the BS buffs you can often place it right over top of where you want it, potentially getting multiple wounds that will lead to multiple ID on some units.

Or do I just play with too many thunderwolf cav, Daemon Princes and Grotesques to the point that I fear Str10 blasts a lot.

Tactical brilliance may occasionally crumple to brute force. Vindicators may not be taken very much, but there's a reason they're focused down quickly. Str10 AP2 is always scary.

What do you folks think of the destroyers with the plasma cannon things??? Ignoring skits so we can have some actual tactical talk about the unit

The plasma could be a strong option against horde type armies, and also does a number of vehicles (abit better than grav guns)

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:
I built my 1 Onager as a Neutron Laser. This was most likely a mistake.

Ugh. Stop theoryhammering and actually play.

Yeah, a single Neutron Laser isn't great by itself when facing huge amounts of armor or monstrous creatures.
But it is still good, especially when you field it as part of the Skitarii Maniple formation and use everything in synchronization.

I'll actually be fielding single neutron tomorrow. Escalation league kicking up from 500 too 700pts.

5x Rangers w/ 2x Arquebus
10x Vanguard w/ 2x Arc rifle
5x Ruststalkers w/ Claws, Dataspike & Conv Field on Princeps
3x Dragoons w/ Phosphor
1x Onager w/ Neutron

I'll report back how it goes.

Depending on what you fight, you should have a fairly good game.

Be warned that Skitarii will struggle a bit against Tyranids, at least unless you've prepared to fight them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Verviedi wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:
I built my 1 Onager as a Neutron Laser. This was most likely a mistake.

Ugh. Stop theoryhammering and actually play.

Yeah, a single Neutron Laser isn't great by itself when facing huge amounts of armor or monstrous creatures.
But it is still good, especially when you field it as part of the Skitarii Maniple formation and use everything in synchronization.

I used it. It killed one Zoanthrope and ate the fire from a double devourer Flyrant. I think it may also have killed some Gaunts.
Don't assume that 100% of the time I'm operating on theory.

You fired the Neutron Laser at Gaunts?

...Why?

Nidzilla worries me a bit, but not the swams. I fought a Daemonkin Cultist horde at the 500 level and more or less won off of Vanguard alone. So Gaunts/Gants don't worry me, warriors get doubled out on the charge by Dragoons, but I lack MC answers.

Neutron Lasers will be fairly good for chipping away at MCs. Add to it that they force a "Concussive" test and you can neuter their CC a bit.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Neutron Lasers will be fairly good for chipping away at MCs. Add to it that they force a "Concussive" test and you can neuter their CC a bit.

That's the plan. Neutron followed by a Ruststalker charge. Next 200pts will either double by infantry count (10 more Vanguard, 5 more rangers) or slot in Kataphrons with Grav.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:
I built my 1 Onager as a Neutron Laser. This was most likely a mistake.

Ugh. Stop theoryhammering and actually play.

Yeah, a single Neutron Laser isn't great by itself when facing huge amounts of armor or monstrous creatures.
But it is still good, especially when you field it as part of the Skitarii Maniple formation and use everything in synchronization.

I'll actually be fielding single neutron tomorrow. Escalation league kicking up from 500 too 700pts.

5x Rangers w/ 2x Arquebus
10x Vanguard w/ 2x Arc rifle
5x Ruststalkers w/ Claws, Dataspike & Conv Field on Princeps
3x Dragoons w/ Phosphor
1x Onager w/ Neutron

I'll report back how it goes.

Depending on what you fight, you should have a fairly good game.

Be warned that Skitarii will struggle a bit against Tyranids, at least unless you've prepared to fight them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Verviedi wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:
I built my 1 Onager as a Neutron Laser. This was most likely a mistake.

Ugh. Stop theoryhammering and actually play.

Yeah, a single Neutron Laser isn't great by itself when facing huge amounts of armor or monstrous creatures.
But it is still good, especially when you field it as part of the Skitarii Maniple formation and use everything in synchronization.

I used it. It killed one Zoanthrope and ate the fire from a double devourer Flyrant. I think it may also have killed some Gaunts.
Don't assume that 100% of the time I'm operating on theory.

You fired the Neutron Laser at Gaunts?


...Why?

All of the Synapse was dead. I shot it at a Carnifex. It scattered into some Gaunts.

mmimzie wrote:
What do you folks think of the destroyers with the plasma cannon things??? Ignoring skits so we can have some actual tactical talk about the unit

The plasma could be a strong option against horde type armies, and also does a number of vehicles (abit better than grav guns)

Str7 AP2 isnt for any hordes I know. And it is only 2 shot and small blast at a BS that is likely to scatter.

I think its Grav for Destroyers always

For Breachers I think it isnt as clear cut, haywire generally does vehicles best and torsion cannon handles light vehicles and MCs better, but perhaps not as well as Grav Destroyers

In the holistic way I have been viewing Skitarii and Cult-Mech as one book, I find Grav Destroyers seems like the obvious, and logical build for that kit, as Haywire is just so readily available, and cheaply on the Skitarii side.

I really have to say, viewed as a whole, and viewed together, I am in love with "Ad Mech" and it has reignited my enjoyment of 40k. I feel like there are genuine list building options again, and legitimate, and fair answers to anything any meta could throw at you.

More releases like these would serve the broader game well. :-p

 obsidiankatana wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Yeah, once Allies come in it's quite a different game. Depends on if you want all that AP3 shooting - if you don't care too much about it, then yeah you can probably pick other options over it.

That's the conundrum. Kataphrons bring AP2 for days, Vanguard and Onagers cover horde and AA, Ruststalkers and Infiltrators for CC (with limited electro-priest information). Kastelans left out to dry.

I think you're underestimating the difference MC, T7 and an extra wound can make. Kataphrons are the definition of a glass-cannon unit, and they will be a primary target for your opponent once they realise what the little tracked buggers can do. You can argue that Kataphrons can make up for that with redundancy through numbers, but that only goes so far once you start spending points on allied Skitters.

The way I see it, Kataphrons....right, bugger it; sod GW's IP-lawyering nonsense I'm calling them their proper name from now on. Praetorians are relatively cheap damage dealers, but with only a 4-up basic save they are going to wilt in a strong breeze even with 2 wounds and T5, and even with Cognis Flamers to deter assaults they're still going to be obliterated if your opponent Outflanks or Pods a CC unit on top of them. Kastelans aren't as good vs 2+ save elite infantry or heavy tanks, but against all other infantry types and light tanks/transports they're as good or better, and you're getting a platform that can't be doubled-out, is more difficult for your opponent to degrade the effectiveness of, has a better save and FnP plus occasional reflector shield shenanigans, and on top of that can make mincemeat of anything short of a super-heavy walker or CC-specialised high-T MC in close combat(remember even with all-Phosphor, the best loadout IMO, they're MCs so attack in CC with S6 AP2 and can Smash at S10 if necessary, plus you can trigger the CC protocols to up their attacks).

At first glance they're compared based on their weaponry alone, which favours the Praetorians, but when you look at the whole picture you can see they have different roles on the battlefield. Praetorians are fire-support, the AdMech equivalent of IG Heavy Weapon Squads just with cooler guns, the Kastelans are linebreakers, area-deniers, and objective-clearers; they're meant to be making your enemy's line infantry cack their pants at the sight of whole squads of anything MEQ or worse being deleted without ceremony every turn by a unit your opponent knows he's going to have to commit a LOT of resources to eliminating, while your specialist and support units like Praetorians pick off enemy elites and specialists and your wave of Arc-Vanguard grind inexorably towards the objectives.

Kinda off subject, but I've just played a small game of Mech vs Chaos, with the Kastelans and the Skitarii. The Kastelans were amazing in my experience! They got into a good position and started using Protector protocol, when they did they were destroying squads of marines and cultists alike! The Vaguard with arc rifles took out their transports and such, and the ones with Plasma Calivers killed a Jugger Lord along with his Spawn unit. In my opinion, I'm going to go with Robots and Vanguard for an effective force. I'm not sure what to think about the Kataphrone servitors though... Will stick with Kastelans for now.

I've been enjoying using the walker army over the last few weeks....played close to 20 games now with it. Definitely has its weak matches but its very fun.

I'm still agonising if I drop 2 shooty walkers or 2 combat walkers for the bastion with comms.

Still wish cavalier formation didn't have to reserve but thems the rules I suppose.

I'll try and put some battle reps up at some point.

 Yodhrin wrote:
.

So as not to clog up with text, dot quote. I may be undervaluing the T7 MC status, but I don't think so. And although the point differential is minimized with allied Skitarii, or rather appears to be by statement alone, I don't think it does. Destroyers are more than twice as cheap, with comparable range. Vanguard are as cheap as 9ppm. Between them they cover all the bases as far as offensive firepower, and for the equivalent points cost of a unit of Phosphor Kastelans you net three Destroyers and ~17 Vanguard That's an enormous wound differential and while none of it is at T7, it's also spread across three units. Could be I'm wrong, but on a hunch for the survivability boost of Kastelans I feel I'd rather have the equivalent points spent in Onagers, Vanguards, and Kataphrons. But you are right - none of the above will singularly act as a linebreaker as will the robots. In tandem, however, I give them an edge.

Unrelated - played my escalation games today with the single neutron Onager. Gotta say, the matchups called for it. First game was against two squads of Plague Marines along with Typhus and a MoN Terminator entourage. Talk about target-rich environment. Doubling out to negate FNP and armor really dealt with those stubborn plague marines. Second was against Eldar. Two units of three Scatbikes, Wraithguard with cannons, min unit of spiders, and a Wraithlord. Again - Wraithguard were the target of choice. Lost this game (because he had no gun under S6 mostly), but the Wraithguard didn't live past my first turn.

Well that was a delightful operation.

No games using my Skitarii this weekend :(
I suppose I'll have to wait a week to test my new things.


My current list - could use some critique. Not sure if this amount of upgrades is worth it.

Total- 800


Troops-
5x Vanguard (100)
-2x Arc
-Omnispex
-Refractor Field

5x Rangers (105)
-Transuranic Arquebus
-Omnispex
-Arkhan's Divinator
-Refractor Field

Elites-
5x Ruststalkers (165)
-Claw/Razor/GODNADES
-Converter Field

5x Infiltrators (220)
-Uzi/Taser
-Converterfield
-Phospheonix

Fast Attack-
Sydonian Dragoon (55)
-Phosphor Serpenta

Heavy Support
Onager Dunecrawler (145)
-Neutron Laser
-Cognis Manipulator
-Extra Stubber

Okay guys. I know this has been addressed, but does the Emenatus Field rule make squadrons not gakky?

In a recent game I fired a two-vehicle squadron of Neutronagers at a Land Raider and hit, penned, and rolled explodes results for both lasers. The overkill made me super sad, as if they had been split I could've hit the contents with a second shot (instead of melting the land Raider twice).