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 Yodhrin wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Much as I hate to say it, he's a tax. Gorgeous model, cool weaponry, but he really doesn't bring a whole lot to the army that it doesn't already have.

Really? He can bring IWND and his innate repair ability to a Cybernetica Cohort, acting as an extra 2+/4++/LOS tank for the unit, also with the option to chuck out a S6 AP3 template if he's not repairing or helping split fire. Indeed the IWND/Repair combo can make any unit in the 'dex extremely difficult to eliminate, very useful for the not-actually-that-tough Destroyers, particularly the Plasma variant, and on top of that he boosts their morale resilience with his leadership. The Scryerskull relic is pretty much the only thing that can elevate Torsion Breachers to the point they're worth taking relative to the other options. Bearing in mind he's the only one that can take those relics. No slouch in CC either.

Seriously, if this is what you consider a tax HQ, what isn't a tax HQ outside Draigo-esque cheese-laden deathstar-enablers?

Already touched on all of this. Read above. He's also not the only one capable of taking relics - Datasmiths can as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And for the record, I do consider most HQs to be a tax.

 gameandwatch wrote:

Actually, side question. With something like the erradication ray, that has multiple profiles, do you choose the profile when at a range shown in both profiles?

Meaning, 0-12 is one profile, 12-24, another, you choose which one at 12 right?

I believe at 12 inches, you get to choose which profile you want to use.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 gameandwatch wrote:

Actually, side question. With something like the erradication ray, that has multiple profiles, do you choose the profile when at a range shown in both profiles?

Meaning, 0-12 is one profile, 12-24, another, you choose which one at 12 right?

I believe at 12 inches, you get to choose which profile you want to use.

On that note - if full size Eradication Rays scatter enough to shift a shot profile, does it change?

I dont think so, once the profile is determined and the shot is made, it stays as that

Ex: Target at 12 inches is shot with the Blast, drifts 4 inches towards the Priest, doesnt become a single shot all of a sudden

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
I dont think so, once the profile is determined and the shot is made, it stays as that

Ex: Target at 12 inches is shot with the Blast, drifts 4 inches towards the Priest, doesnt become a single shot all of a sudden

Muddled there I'll grant, but I was more referring to the full-sized beamer on the Onager. 9-18 is a small, 18-36 is a large. So if it scatters from 16'' -> 19'', does the profile change?

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
I dont think so, once the profile is determined and the shot is made, it stays as that

Ex: Target at 12 inches is shot with the Blast, drifts 4 inches towards the Priest, doesnt become a single shot all of a sudden

Muddled there I'll grant, but I was more referring to the full-sized beamer on the Onager. 9-18 is a small, 18-36 is a large. So if it scatters from 16'' -> 19'', does the profile change?

No. The profile is determined by the point you pick for it to be fired at.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
I dont think so, once the profile is determined and the shot is made, it stays as that

Ex: Target at 12 inches is shot with the Blast, drifts 4 inches towards the Priest, doesnt become a single shot all of a sudden

Muddled there I'll grant, but I was more referring to the full-sized beamer on the Onager. 9-18 is a small, 18-36 is a large. So if it scatters from 16'' -> 19'', does the profile change?

I would say no because the type of "ammunition" is chosen before the shot is fired.

Nother interesting question, under the vanguard and ranger sections it says "One skitarii vanguard may carry one of the following" does this mean only one of the wargear options may be chosen, or that only one may be chosen per model?

I would hope the latter, as the former would mean the enhanced data-tether will never be taken.

 gameandwatch wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
I dont think so, once the profile is determined and the shot is made, it stays as that

Ex: Target at 12 inches is shot with the Blast, drifts 4 inches towards the Priest, doesnt become a single shot all of a sudden

Muddled there I'll grant, but I was more referring to the full-sized beamer on the Onager. 9-18 is a small, 18-36 is a large. So if it scatters from 16'' -> 19'', does the profile change?

I would say no because the type of "ammunition" is chosen before the shot is fired.

Nother interesting question, under the vanguard and ranger sections it says "One skitarii vanguard may carry one of the following" does this mean only one of the wargear options may be chosen, or that only one may be chosen per model?

I would hope the latter, as the former would mean the enhanced data-tether will never be taken.

It's the former. Same with any wargear/special replacement wording in other 'dexes too. Typically you won't need the Enhanced Data-Tether too if you have Ironstriders/Dragoons with the Broad-Spectrum Data-Tether (which doesn't stack) or an Onager.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
I dont think so, once the profile is determined and the shot is made, it stays as that

Ex: Target at 12 inches is shot with the Blast, drifts 4 inches towards the Priest, doesnt become a single shot all of a sudden

Muddled there I'll grant, but I was more referring to the full-sized beamer on the Onager. 9-18 is a small, 18-36 is a large. So if it scatters from 16'' -> 19'', does the profile change?

If you fire a plasma cannon at something 36" away and it scatters 4" further does it still hit?

That is your answer.

 Exergy wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
I dont think so, once the profile is determined and the shot is made, it stays as that

Ex: Target at 12 inches is shot with the Blast, drifts 4 inches towards the Priest, doesnt become a single shot all of a sudden

Muddled there I'll grant, but I was more referring to the full-sized beamer on the Onager. 9-18 is a small, 18-36 is a large. So if it scatters from 16'' -> 19'', does the profile change?

If you fire a plasma cannon at something 36" away and it scatters 4" further does it still hit?

That is your answer.

That... what? That entirely depends on if there are still units under it, not the origin point of the shooter. This comparison does nothing to answer the question. Previous answers did. Plasma cannons don't have multiple range-dependent profiles.

Talking about cheesy Draigostars, can someone come up with a Cult Mech + Draigo deathstar? 3 NDKs + Castellans rampaging around the board with a gating Invisible IWND Kataphronstar sounds quite sexy.

It would be cheaper, but probably less effective compared to centurions with lower BS and no grav amp. Prescience being taken into account of course

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
I dont think so, once the profile is determined and the shot is made, it stays as that

Ex: Target at 12 inches is shot with the Blast, drifts 4 inches towards the Priest, doesnt become a single shot all of a sudden

Muddled there I'll grant, but I was more referring to the full-sized beamer on the Onager. 9-18 is a small, 18-36 is a large. So if it scatters from 16'' -> 19'', does the profile change?

If you fire a plasma cannon at something 36" away and it scatters 4" further does it still hit?

That is your answer.

That... what? That entirely depends on if there are still units under it, not the origin point of the shooter. This comparison does nothing to answer the question. Previous answers did. Plasma cannons don't have multiple range-dependent profiles.

No that is your answer,

You fire a plasma cannon at something. If it is 35" away you can fire it, if it is 37" away you cannont. If you end up scattering into somehting 37" away it still does damage.

You have a range profile of 12-24", you can only use that weapon profile on things 12"-24" away, but if it scatters out of that range profile it still does damage.

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Talking about cheesy Draigostars, can someone come up with a Cult Mech + Draigo deathstar? 3 NDKs + Castellans rampaging around the board with a gating Invisible IWND Kataphronstar sounds quite sexy.

You can't attach an IC to the Robots though.

Draigo w/ Loth/ML3 GK Lib rolling on Telepathy + 5 Grav Destroyers + Dominus for Cognis and wound restoration?

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Much as I hate to say it, he's a tax. Gorgeous model, cool weaponry, but he really doesn't bring a whole lot to the army that it doesn't already have.

Really? He can bring IWND and his innate repair ability to a Cybernetica Cohort, acting as an extra 2+/4++/LOS tank for the unit, also with the option to chuck out a S6 AP3 template if he's not repairing or helping split fire. Indeed the IWND/Repair combo can make any unit in the 'dex extremely difficult to eliminate, very useful for the not-actually-that-tough Destroyers, particularly the Plasma variant, and on top of that he boosts their morale resilience with his leadership. The Scryerskull relic is pretty much the only thing that can elevate Torsion Breachers to the point they're worth taking relative to the other options. Bearing in mind he's the only one that can take those relics. No slouch in CC either.

Seriously, if this is what you consider a tax HQ, what isn't a tax HQ outside Draigo-esque cheese-laden deathstar-enablers?

(1)Already touched on all of this. Read above. He's also not the only one capable of taking relics - Datasmiths can as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(2)And for the record, I do consider most HQs to be a tax.

1. Take a gander at the relics page again chief, only the Dominus can take the IWND and Scryerskull relics, they are not available to Datasmiths.

2. Ah OK, I think we've found the disconnect - you're a madman Kidding, kidding. This looks like an agree-to-disagree scenario though, because I just can't see the vast majority of HQ's in that light. Some might be better than others, but something is only a tax to my mind if it doesn't do anything at all useful itself and is merely a prerequisite for taking other things - even if CultMech had a basic formation like Skitarii I would still take a Dominus since he's essentially a Space Marine character with some nice extra abilities, gear, and access to the best Relics.

Yea the Scryerskull and the IWND relic have a little "1" next to them which indicates only a tech priest can take those

Speaking of relics. I keep looking at the Pater Radium and wonder just how effective it could be with a Vanguard squad.

And on that note what are the thoughts on vanguard charging T4 so taser infiltrators can double them out? Guessing it might not be worth it but I still think its intimidating.

As gar as the Dominus goes, just his sheer versatility would make him a auto include even if he wasn't mandatory. I love most that sticking him in the Kastelan's just makes them uber tough, just big robo bodyguards for the cyber pimp. I do understand seeing him as a sort point tax though.

 Ir0njack wrote:
Speaking of relics. I keep looking at the Pater Radium and wonder just how effective it could be with a Vanguard squad.

And on that note what are the thoughts on vanguard charging T4 so taser infiltrators can double them out? Guessing it might not be worth it but I still think its intimidating

I think its a completely valid tactic, but most T4 things have one wound, unless you're talking about Paladins and the ilk, in which case both squads are probably going to melt in close-combat against. I mean, I'm sure they could wreck a squad of Tyranid Warriors (T4 3W 4+), but using two squads in close combat to smack one squad of Warriors is kinda inefficient.

The only situation I can see this happening is if I do a disordered charge with my Vanguard against one unit, and have them catch a second unit in the split charge just to get the -1T, and then have the Infiltrators charge the second unit. But other than that, Vanguards shooting up one unit followed by a double-charge by them and a squad of Infiltrators is, IMHO, overkill.

There just simply aren't enough valid multi-wound T4 models that can't be resolved with a squad of Vanguard shooting and charging normally to justify doubling out.

The hard part with vanguard is getting them into assault with the right targets. I thought about the pater but it's just a matter of survival. Skitarii die very easily in general.

Also many abilities like reanimation and fnp are based on instant death threshold of something. Being able to put things like wraiths at t 4 where power fists will instant them out is huge.

As nice is Pater Radium is the only unit it really would work against are Wraiths. Everyone else you want to be shooting. Could work as a last resort but if you really want a T debuff play RW...

Requizen wrote:

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Talking about cheesy Draigostars, can someone come up with a Cult Mech + Draigo deathstar? 3 NDKs + Castellans rampaging around the board with a gating Invisible IWND Kataphronstar sounds quite sexy.

You can't attach an IC to the Robots though.

You can if you play the formation, anyway they're joining the squishy Kataphrons...

Verviedi wrote:Draigo w/ Loth/ML3 GK Lib rolling on Telepathy + 5 Grav Destroyers + Dominus for Cognis and wound restoration?

Disgusting. 3 Source though, since Loth isn't GK. The lack of Split Fire is an issue though.

I'm reconsidering Power Fist Kastellans. In the formation they're one the few units that can go toe to toe with D-Lord and Trazyn led Wraiths, Adlance, Wolfstars, and Green Tide ork mobz and come out on top. They're weak against high str Force weapon attacks, however.

Also 4x Cognis Flamers that can shoot twice if stationary is nothing if not terrifying to any horde player.

I don't play Space Marines, but why Sevrin Loth? I just looked up his IA rules, is it because he can pick his powers rather than roll for them?

(If Droppod skitarii are still a thing in the new 'dex, I'm picking up SM as allies and doing Skitarii+SM+Assassin for Culexus...)

 Enigwolf wrote:
I don't play Space Marines, but why Sevrin Loth? I just looked up his IA rules, is it because he can pick his powers rather than roll for them?

(If Droppod skitarii are still a thing in the new 'dex, I'm picking up SM as allies and doing Skitarii+SM+Assassin for Culexus...)

Being able to pick any three powers you want is huge.

His 2++ save thing he can get through expending a warp charge is nifty, but seriously, having the powers you want makes him easily the most reliable caster in the game.

 Kain wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
I don't play Space Marines, but why Sevrin Loth? I just looked up his IA rules, is it because he can pick his powers rather than roll for them?

(If Droppod skitarii are still a thing in the new 'dex, I'm picking up SM as allies and doing Skitarii+SM+Assassin for Culexus...)

Being able to pick any three powers you want is huge.

His 2++ save thing he can get through expending a warp charge is nifty, but seriously, having the powers you want makes him easily the most reliable caster in the game.

Just go iron arm+warp speed and you have the almost the same CC stats as a Eversor (OH YEAH!) Assassin
Or you can go with the vortex of doom teleport stategy (which causes neckbeards to rage)

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
As nice is Pater Radium is the only unit it really would work against are Wraiths. Everyone else you want to be shooting. Could work as a last resort but if you really want a T debuff play RW...

Requizen wrote:

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Talking about cheesy Draigostars, can someone come up with a Cult Mech + Draigo deathstar? 3 NDKs + Castellans rampaging around the board with a gating Invisible IWND Kataphronstar sounds quite sexy.

You can't attach an IC to the Robots though.

You can if you play the formation, anyway they're joining the squishy Kataphrons...

Draigo or the Librarian can't, and they need to in order to Gate.

Okay looks like a miscommunication. ICs can't join Kastellan squads, it's true, but this is referring to attaching Draigo/the Libby to a squad of grav destroyers.

Thoughts on breachers in a war convocation? Haywire or torsion?

 Wilson wrote:
Thoughts on breachers in a war convocation? Haywire or torsion?

Haywire

Torsion isnt good enough against MCs to matter when you have so much grav+radium around

Why do people keep asking/wondering, if Drop-Pod Vanguard will be a thing? Isn't it moot what the new SM Codex says, since most of us just rent-a-pod with Flesh Tearers, anyway?

 TranSpyre wrote:
Okay looks like a miscommunication. ICs can't join Kastellan squads, it's true, but this is referring to attaching Draigo/the Libby to a squad of grav destroyers.

They can in the Cybernetica Cohort, as it's all considered one unit(but counts as three for purposes of Canticles)