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Hi all,

So my mate who I often play against has adopted this tactic of putting his obliterators with the Mark of Nurgle on the top floor of some ruins. They are impossible to assault and almost impervious to my shooting, while he can dakka my vehicles with impunity.

How would you guys deal with this situation?

 Krusha wrote:
Hi all,

So my mate who I often play against has adopted this tactic of putting his obliterators with the Mark of Nurgle on the top floor of some ruins. They are impossible to assault and almost impervious to my shooting, while he can dakka my vehicles with impunity.

How would you guys deal with this situation?

Yup all good oblits have MoN, so T5, 2+/5++ and in ruins you say so 4+ cover.

Depends on what your army gives you, but Str10 AP2 will ID them if they fail cover. Another alternative is to Dakka them down, anything str5~ and in quantity until they fail their 2+ saves. Weight of fire cares not for cover.


Also remember you can climb ruins, so you can assault them.

Lootaz should have no problem with them. You're still wounding them on 2's like regular Terminators. That said, their firepower output at long range is pretty lackluster. What's he shooting you with that's really causing you problems - lascannons? There are much more efficient ways for people to bring lascannons, so just be happy he's misusing his Obliterators.

Well I have a lot of vehicles and my tactics revolve around charging forwards, so he usually finds targets for lascannons or multi meltas.

In the last game I took down one with focused dakka over the course of the whole game. The problem with assaulting them was that I couldn't physically fit any models onto the top floor of the ruin where they were camping.

I have been considering lootas, though I am not sure they fit the mechanised evil sunz theme.

Lascannon/Plasma gun with ignore cover. Although camping in ruins and shooting lascannons may not be the best use of obliterators. DS-ing behind vehicles and shooting rear armor with all assault cannons may be better.

Multi-level buildings aren't really in the rules now. If you stand below them, doesn't that count as base contact? It's weird that he's negating cc by not leaving room for you to put your models next to his.

Zsolt wrote:
Lascannon/Plasma gun with ignore cover. Although camping in ruins and shooting lascannons may not be the best use of obliterators. DS-ing behind vehicles and shooting rear armor with all assault cannons may be better.

Multi-level buildings aren't really in the rules now. If you stand below them, doesn't that count as base contact? It's weird that he's negating cc by not leaving room for you to put your models next to his.

If that's the case then I think he owes me a pint! Taking this to the rules section...

I play Orks, so assaulting them is the way to go as long as I can get there!

You do have to have the vertical movement to reach them, though. Can't just walk beneath them and claim you're in combat. But as long as you have enough movement to move up to reach them, you can absolutely assault them.

 DarkLink wrote:
You do have to have the vertical movement to reach them, though. Can't just walk beneath them and claim you're in combat. But as long as you have enough movement to move up to reach them, you can absolutely assault them.

My understanding was that this was not correct because you were required to be able to move at least one model (the "initial charger") into contact, and the others could then fight as long as they were within at least 6" vertically of that model, whereas this is a scenario in which I cannot even place that initial charger into base contact.

 Krusha wrote:

 DarkLink wrote:
You do have to have the vertical movement to reach them, though. Can't just walk beneath them and claim you're in combat. But as long as you have enough movement to move up to reach them, you can absolutely assault them.

My understanding was that this was not correct because you were required to be able to move at least one model (the "initial charger") into contact, and the others could then fight as long as they were within at least 6" vertically of that model, whereas this is a scenario in which I cannot even place that initial charger into base contact.

As long as you have the distance to make base, there is no requirement for the model to be physically capable of making base contact in a ruin.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Krusha wrote:

 DarkLink wrote:
You do have to have the vertical movement to reach them, though. Can't just walk beneath them and claim you're in combat. But as long as you have enough movement to move up to reach them, you can absolutely assault them.

My understanding was that this was not correct because you were required to be able to move at least one model (the "initial charger") into contact, and the others could then fight as long as they were within at least 6" vertically of that model, whereas this is a scenario in which I cannot even place that initial charger into base contact.

As long as you have the distance to make base, there is no requirement for the model to be physically capable of making base contact in a ruin.

P21 of the BRB says you can't move up a level unless you can physically place the model there... :( sad times.

 Krusha wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Krusha wrote:

 DarkLink wrote:
You do have to have the vertical movement to reach them, though. Can't just walk beneath them and claim you're in combat. But as long as you have enough movement to move up to reach them, you can absolutely assault them.

My understanding was that this was not correct because you were required to be able to move at least one model (the "initial charger") into contact, and the others could then fight as long as they were within at least 6" vertically of that model, whereas this is a scenario in which I cannot even place that initial charger into base contact.

As long as you have the distance to make base, there is no requirement for the model to be physically capable of making base contact in a ruin.

P21 of the BRB says you can't move up a level unless you can physically place the model there... :( sad times.

if he is getting ornery remind him his oblits need to be on 40mm bases. Once you kill one, you can get at least 2 ork boys up in it's place.

That's why we have the house rule of "no model on the table is unassaultable due solely to terrain." If one guy can walk there, another guy can walk there to hit him, assuming he made the charge distance.

If he's abusing movement rules, why don't you go in for wobbly model syndrome?

 koooaei wrote:
If he's abusing movement rules, why don't you go in for wobbly model syndrome?

Well, wobbly model syndrome requires you to be able to actually place a model up there, even if precariously.

Plus I don't see it as a huge abuse - it is kind of realistic. Just annoying!

Maybe flash gits are the answer?

 Krusha wrote:

Well, wobbly model syndrome requires you to be able to actually place a model up there, even if precariously.

Place a few blackreach choppaboyz with risen up choppas on the 2-d floor close to the edge of the 3-d floor. Place a charging model touching the base of an obli and the 3-d floor ballancing on the boy'z choppas from the 2-d floor. TADAAA he's standing and as he's on the 3-d floor there are no rules that prevent you from doing it. Claim wobbly model syndrome to not damage a model that's inevitably gona fall after a couple of seconds. Chop him to death with your acrobatic orks.

Here's a thought - my battlewagon has no access points per se as it is an open topped vehicle. So if the top of the vehicle is level with one of the upper floors of the building, can I disembark straight into it and thus shorten the distance?

My girlfriend uses the same tactic, though she sucks at passing 2+ saves. So... >.>

How is Orky air power? Any nice tank busta bombs you can drop on him?

Or I have seen most ruins have walls on the top floor. Can't you try to balance one on the walls and call Wobbly model syndrome?

Make your Local Gaming Shop new ruins with bigger top floors and hide the old ones?

Model your boyz to have vacuum suckers so that they can phisically hold on a millimetre of the top floor!

You guys are kunnin'. Definitely more Mork than Gork.

I have two ideas. The first might not be correct, as I don't have my books on me, the second one almost certainly is.

1. I believe that, in 7th, the 14 av cap on Reinforced Rams has been removed, and vehicles can now drive up buildings. Tank shock them off with a battlewagon with reinforced ram, ard case and extra armour.

2. Siege tower truck. Build a truck that is the same height as the building. Drive it up to them, hope it gets wrecked, and, if it does, use it as an extension of the building to assault them.

Flying trucks!111 Oh, it's hilarious as is.

And it might actually work within the 7-th ruleset as it's nowhere stated that vehicles can't climb buildings. Yep, it's odd and looks stupid but so is claiming that you can't climb up a ruin with boyz if there's a fat obli standing on top.

Not sure if these were entirely serious suggestions, but even a climbing vehicle would suffer from being unable to actually fit onto the platform...

Ruins (in this case, the Basilica Administratum) don't technically count as buildings, do they? As in, I can't just destroy them and the obliterators along with it?

 Krusha wrote:
Not sure if these were entirely serious suggestions, but even a climbing vehicle would suffer from being unable to actually fit onto the platform...

Ruins (in this case, the Basilica Administratum) don't technically count as buildings, do they? As in, I can't just destroy them and the obliterators along with it?

It's physically easier to fit a vehicle on top of ruin rather than place an infantry model as the vehicle pushes obli off it due to tank shock rules. On the other hand, he can DoG and pens your truck on a 3+, and stops on a 3, 5, 6. But that summs up to be just 1/3 to stop/destroy a truck and 2/3 to loose an obli. You have 1/36 chance to get immobilized but 1/6 chance to downgrade pen to glance with ramshackle. And he'll have to pass ld9 first as oblis are no longer fearless.

Besides, you can tank shock him with tougher vehicles. He can't stop a wagon, for example. And a gun wagon will get stopped just 1/12 of the time.

 Krusha wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Krusha wrote:

 DarkLink wrote:
You do have to have the vertical movement to reach them, though. Can't just walk beneath them and claim you're in combat. But as long as you have enough movement to move up to reach them, you can absolutely assault them.

My understanding was that this was not correct because you were required to be able to move at least one model (the "initial charger") into contact, and the others could then fight as long as they were within at least 6" vertically of that model, whereas this is a scenario in which I cannot even place that initial charger into base contact.

As long as you have the distance to make base, there is no requirement for the model to be physically capable of making base contact in a ruin.

P21 of the BRB says you can't move up a level unless you can physically place the model there... :( sad times.

EDIT: You're right - they completely removed that section of the rulebook.

See here for discussion: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/606913.page

I would definitely argue that invoking WMS should prevent rules abuses like these.

 koooaei wrote:

 Krusha wrote:
Not sure if these were entirely serious suggestions, but even a climbing vehicle would suffer from being unable to actually fit onto the platform...

Ruins (in this case, the Basilica Administratum) don't technically count as buildings, do they? As in, I can't just destroy them and the obliterators along with it?

It's physically easier to fit a vehicle on top of ruin rather than place an infantry model as the vehicle pushes obli off it due to tank shock rules. On the other hand, he can DoG and pens your truck on a 3+, and stops on a 3, 5, 6. But that summs up to be just 1/3 to stop/destroy a truck and 2/3 to loose an obli. You have 1/36 chance to get immobilized but 1/6 chance to downgrade pen to glance with ramshackle. And he'll have to pass ld9 first as oblis are no longer fearless.

Besides, you can tank shock him with tougher vehicles. He can't stop a wagon, for example. And a gun wagon will get stopped just 1/12 of the time.

He would likely DoG with the multimelta, which would pen even a battlewagon and stop it in it's tracks.

 Exergy wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Krusha wrote:
Not sure if these were entirely serious suggestions, but even a climbing vehicle would suffer from being unable to actually fit onto the platform...

Ruins (in this case, the Basilica Administratum) don't technically count as buildings, do they? As in, I can't just destroy them and the obliterators along with it?

It's physically easier to fit a vehicle on top of ruin rather than place an infantry model as the vehicle pushes obli off it due to tank shock rules. On the other hand, he can DoG and pens your truck on a 3+, and stops on a 3, 5, 6. But that summs up to be just 1/3 to stop/destroy a truck and 2/3 to loose an obli. You have 1/36 chance to get immobilized but 1/6 chance to downgrade pen to glance with ramshackle. And he'll have to pass ld9 first as oblis are no longer fearless.

Besides, you can tank shock him with tougher vehicles. He can't stop a wagon, for example. And a gun wagon will get stopped just 1/12 of the time.

He would likely DoG with the multimelta, which would pen even a battlewagon and stop it in it's tracks.

I'm pretty sure he can't use his ranged choice weapons to DoG as they're not equipped weapons.

 koooaei wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Krusha wrote:
Not sure if these were entirely serious suggestions, but even a climbing vehicle would suffer from being unable to actually fit onto the platform...

Ruins (in this case, the Basilica Administratum) don't technically count as buildings, do they? As in, I can't just destroy them and the obliterators along with it?

It's physically easier to fit a vehicle on top of ruin rather than place an infantry model as the vehicle pushes obli off it due to tank shock rules. On the other hand, he can DoG and pens your truck on a 3+, and stops on a 3, 5, 6. But that summs up to be just 1/3 to stop/destroy a truck and 2/3 to loose an obli. You have 1/36 chance to get immobilized but 1/6 chance to downgrade pen to glance with ramshackle. And he'll have to pass ld9 first as oblis are no longer fearless.

Besides, you can tank shock him with tougher vehicles. He can't stop a wagon, for example. And a gun wagon will get stopped just 1/12 of the time.

He would likely DoG with the multimelta, which would pen even a battlewagon and stop it in it's tracks.

I'm pretty sure he can't use his ranged choice weapons to DoG as they're not equipped weapons.

This would need checking, but I believe that a battlewagon with reinforced ram would be av 16 for tank shocks, so would be immune to everything but meltas, which would need a 9 to pen.

 YourIntestines wrote:

This would need checking, but I believe that a battlewagon with reinforced ram would be av 16 for tank shocks, so would be immune to everything but meltas, which would need a 9 to pen.

I believe this is the case for ramming, but not for tank shocks.

 YourIntestines wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Krusha wrote:
Not sure if these were entirely serious suggestions, but even a climbing vehicle would suffer from being unable to actually fit onto the platform...

Ruins (in this case, the Basilica Administratum) don't technically count as buildings, do they? As in, I can't just destroy them and the obliterators along with it?

It's physically easier to fit a vehicle on top of ruin rather than place an infantry model as the vehicle pushes obli off it due to tank shock rules. On the other hand, he can DoG and pens your truck on a 3+, and stops on a 3, 5, 6. But that summs up to be just 1/3 to stop/destroy a truck and 2/3 to loose an obli. You have 1/36 chance to get immobilized but 1/6 chance to downgrade pen to glance with ramshackle. And he'll have to pass ld9 first as oblis are no longer fearless.

Besides, you can tank shock him with tougher vehicles. He can't stop a wagon, for example. And a gun wagon will get stopped just 1/12 of the time.

He would likely DoG with the multimelta, which would pen even a battlewagon and stop it in it's tracks.

I'm pretty sure he can't use his ranged choice weapons to DoG as they're not equipped weapons.

This would need checking, but I believe that a battlewagon with reinforced ram would be av 16 for tank shocks, so would be immune to everything but meltas, which would need a 9 to pen.

Oblis don't have ranged weapons in their profiles - just a fist and fleshmetal (2+ armor). Shooting weapons is their special rule.