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 agnosto wrote:
And FLGS owners should just let people not buying product take up space. Truly, you folk in the UK are incredibly nice. Again, if you're not playing the new version, you're not buying new product (except maybe general supplies like paint and glue); what reason does a game store have to let you in the door if you're just going to NOT buy anything and then actually encourage others to do the same?

Who said anything about FLGS's...?

 Bull0 wrote:
Sounds like typical clickbait, BoLS are a laughing stock...

That is more to the truth, actually.

Yeah, OK.

There's a topic here everyone - please stick to it!

Thanks!

 agnosto wrote:

 Vermis wrote:


And maybe, actually getting to know and organise with all those 'strangers' that constantly meet in the same place to play. I know it's a stretch asking some gamers to be more social, but it does help.

And FLGS owners should just let people not buying product take up space. Truly, you folk in the UK are incredibly nice. Again, if you're not playing the new version, you're not buying new product (except maybe general supplies like paint and glue); what reason does a game store have to let you in the door if you're just going to NOT buy anything and then actually encourage others to do the same?

I make money off of nearly anyone in my store playing games. Really don't care what they play. I've had historical groups in playing 10cm celts vs romans using rules sets and miniatures I can't even order or sell. Doesn't matter. They were quite polite in asking, and even said "we know we take up space, and you won't make money off of us". I laughed and said 'paint? glue? sodas? the new bolt action book?'

I probably get 20.00 a person in sales from guys playing games that I don't sell

Note though, that these are some polite wargamers. If they can buy it in the shop, they do. I similarly wouldn't care about people playing out of date WFB. The ones that are problems are the people that make it a point to never spend money, or are vocal about why people should buy on line. Doing this while in the store using tables and scenery is rude as hell, and I have talks with them. They either be quiet or get escorted to the door. These guys are rare though, and generally the other players hold them down and give them the dreadsock treatment and don't have to do anything.

Back on Subject: a few years back I heard that UK retailers got far less plastic boxes than I did. Later, i saw a rumor that said GW planned to limit the WFB line to just a few offerings from each army. Over the next 3 years they made this a reality and i now have less than half the WFB models i used to have in the store. Some armies, as you all know, are horribly limited.

What I wonder, is this in line with the new factions? I seriously hope not as so many of the boxes only available on the website are great models a lot of us own. Does the vast lack of Bretonians mean they are just a footnote? or will those kits become available again. Will dwarfs just be an infantry component of the empire? We don't need high elf archers because wood elf and dark elf missle troops are available for the "Elf Army"?

How the hell has GW kept this all secret? I really expected to see someone with all the leaks by now.

 mikhaila wrote:
How the hell has GW kept this all secret? I really expected to see someone with all the leaks by now.

Good question - the Inquisition must be working overtime

 Slinky wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:
How the hell has GW kept this all secret? I really expected to see someone with all the leaks by now.

Good question - the Inquisition must be working overtime

Or no one really knows what's age of sigmar, GW included

Thanks for the list of game systms vermis, 8 ive never heard of and another discontinued games workshop one, with far less support than oldhammer anyway.

Kings of war, the one i mentioned and only one ive heard of id wager has more support than all the rest put together, meaning while they exist they are basically irrelevant, the realistic choice is newhammer, oldhammer or kings of war basically when the new set comes out next month.

So people repeatedly saying "play the edition you like" is perfectly valid, despite the issues frequently arising in the real world if you try and do this outside of an established group, but so,done suggesting "try another system" is basically irrelevant, essentially, it seems, because you've not heard of it?

Is anyone else starting to think that GW is responsible for all leaks? How is it that something this big has has no concrete rumours or well any information? What if GW choose what it is that gets leaked before and has someone leak it for them, and as they want this secret, nothing has gotten out

 statu wrote:
Is anyone else starting to think that GW is responsible for all leaks? How is it that something this big has has no concrete rumours or well any information? What if GW choose what it is that gets leaked before and has someone leak it for them, and as they want this secret, nothing has gotten out

No, I think they have a cast iron belief in the week before preview = £££ and nothing else.

Leaking intentionally makes no sense. They may as well just do hints or sneak peaks like they used to.

I don't know, I've suspected as much for some time, the timing and manner of leaks, at least any sort of photographic leaks, is hilariously predictable most of the time.

 mikhaila wrote:

Back on Subject: a few years back I heard that UK retailers got far less plastic boxes than I did. Later, i saw a rumor that said GW planned to limit the WFB line to just a few offerings from each army. Over the next 3 years they made this a reality and i now have less than half the WFB models i used to have in the store. Some armies, as you all know, are horribly limited.

What I wonder, is this in line with the new factions? I seriously hope not as so many of the boxes only available on the website are great models a lot of us own. Does the vast lack of Bretonians mean they are just a footnote? or will those kits become available again. Will dwarfs just be an infantry component of the empire? We don't need high elf archers because wood elf and dark elf missle troops are available for the "Elf Army"?

Could it be that the reason those kits have been pulled to direct only is because they're in line for revamps?
High Elf Archers, Spearmen, and Silver Helms are older than my youngest brother--and look wildly out of place in the forces as they stand.

How the hell has GW kept this all secret? I really expected to see someone with all the leaks by now.

Maybe the people with the leaks are excited by what they're seeing, and want everyone else to get to share in the wonder before the internet beats their hope and optimism to a bloody pulp?

I think the reason why we're not getting any leaks is because GW has traced the leak to the...German translators!

Think about it. Most of the time when I see a leak on this forum, the text is in German. Finally, GW have put 2 and 2 together.

Didn't they get cheap grav cannons in the Marine Dex too?

 Azreal13 wrote:
Didn't they get cheap grav cannons in the Marine Dex too?

I've had a few games in the past against people with French and German army books in the past, and for some strange reason, their troops and equipment was always cheaper than their English language equivalent

zacharia wrote:
Thanks for the list of game systms vermis, 8 ive never heard of

And now you have heard of them! First problem solved. Next!

...and another discontinued games workshop one, with far less support than oldhammer anyway. Kings of war, the one i mentioned and only one ive heard of id wager has more support than all the rest put together, meaning while they exist they are basically irrelevant

Then it's tragically obvious you haven't read a thing I've typed. What exactly do you mean by 'support'? One of a number of things, I'd guess.

- Are the rules unsupported? Are they unavailable? The only one from that list that has apparently since disappeared, with no obvious source, is Fantasy Rules! (Obligatory exclamation mark: annoying) All the rest are still there, most available as free downloads, or as downloads and books that cost a fraction of what the WFB main book and a handful of army books will. (Even OOP Warmaster. Especially Warmaster.) Well, until everyone puts the latter on ebay for pennies because the only people who'll care about 8th will already have 'em. Even then that little list will be a bit more accessible, I'd guess.

- Are the minis supported? If you wonder that about the list, then you really missed the point of it, to the point that you forgot your own request to see it. All of them allow you to slot your own, existing WFB armies and collections in, and by extension your preferred background. (Fun fact: some don't have a mini range to sell: they're pure rules) Granted, there'll be a little more wiggling with rules that need proxies or counts-as - rather than those with unit creation rules - including Warmaster. But then I mentioned that, and that's the great thing about having a list of alternatives that someone typed up for you.
In the specific case of Warmaster: Hail Caesar and Pike and Shotte, basically Warmaster 2.1 and WM 2.2, are very popular among 28mm historical gamers. There aren't too many drastic changes between those and the original, especially with the built-in ability to switch between scales. It wouldn't break the game (or the bank) to blu-tac your WFB minis to something like 60x40mm bases, maybe jigger the measurements, and have a quick whirl.

- Will you have opponents? Will you be able to play them in GW stores? For the latter; obviously not. But then you're up a certain creek if you want to play any of GW's own games there, barring the current systems and editions.
For the former: I don't know. That's up to you. I can only point the games out to you. It's up to you to read the rules, check the reviews, look at the battle reports, and (heaven forfend) get someone else to spare a couple of hours with either their or one of your WFB armies. Maybe there's a local club or FLGS that isn't completely hung up on GW (they're getting more common, you know); especially excellent clubs like Eilif's or Auldgrump's that are open to KoW or similar, or great stores like Mikhaila's*, or somewhere you can rent table time even if there are no products you 'need'. (But heck, if you're playing in some version of the Warhammer background, and the shop stocks some Age of Sigmar minis you like the look of, and given that these open rulesets don't demand 40- and sometimes not even 20-strong units to play...) Maybe you could start your own club. Maybe not. I do know that all you really need is a set of minis (done), rules (free or cheap), a second warm body (if there was only some way to meet other gamers in this notoriously solitary hobby of ours, and some widely available and convenient communication network to keep in touch with them...), and a table, kitchen or otherwise. (I've spent most of my gaming hobby hunched over that variety of household furniture. And statistically, one out of every two gamers is unlikely to be homeless.)

- Or, as I suspect, when you say 'support', do you mean living your gaming life in GW's pocket; letting GW do and dictate everything for you; doing (or buying) whatever GW wants, every time GW churns out the same old thing but with worse rules and a bigger price; whether you like it or not, but certainly how GW likes it? Or at the very least going only for the most hyped and marketed games with the biggest, flashiest, crappiest rulebooks, as if this hobby is some miniature Hollywood where the only movies you can watch are the ones with most money thrown at them to make them shiny, like something by Michael Bay, or yet another big budget sequel of an old franchise that adds little but keeps flogging it as something new at full price anyway?

If 8th is seeming old and 9th doesn't appeal, this is a great point and opportunity to cast your eye to the real variety of wargaming. It goes way beyond Warmahordes, Infinity, FoW, and even KoW! But you have to be open to it, look at it with new eyes, and be genuine if something in it catches your eye that you want to present to your fellow drifting gamers. You can't pine for a new, great, alternative system after GW pees in your cornflakes, and then reject and bat away every one presented to you "er, because, um, reasons", because most of the reasons are bullgak issued from the bottom of a very comfortable rut. You won't consider them because you haven't heard of them!! What the... ... heck kind of excuse is that!? You never heard of Warhammer 'til you did, either! But if GW's big switch to 9th spoils your fun, you're not going to be able to fall back on Warhammer or GW's strict, enfeebling 'support' system.
I was in that boat meself, years ago, for other reasons. (Thank you for simultaneously heaving both SGs and Belfast veterans out of our very comfortable rut, GW.) I know what it's like; I'm not spouting crap from a position of no experience. We got together on gaming nights over kitchen tables. We formed the gaming groups. We found the other clubs and shops to meet at, and to meet new gamers at. We looked at new gaming systems and revisited old favourites, and still do. It wasn't always easy, certainly not as easy as turning up at the local GW for the gaming equivalent of speed dating, but it was far from the impossibility that some of you seem to think.

* As per his experience, I can't imagine never buying anything from a gaming store I'd frequent, because - and here's a novel idea for GW fans - I'm not physically shackled to one or even two games.

Because we have not had that point made quite often enough in this thread. Could we stick to Warhammer, in the Warhammer thread?

 Charles Rampant wrote:
Because we have not had that point made quite often enough in this thread. Could we stick to Warhammer, in the Warhammer thread?

Indeed.

We need something to go on. Still hoping they start releasing a series of videos describing the features of AoS the way they did 7th 40k.

- Will you have opponents? Will you be able to play them in GW stores? For the latter; obviously not. But then you're up a certain creek if you want to play any of GW's own games there, barring the current systems and editions.
For the former: I don't know. That's up to you. I can only point the games out to you. It's up to you to read the rules, check the reviews, look at the battle reports, and (heaven forfend) get someone else to spare a couple of hours with either their or one of your WFB armies. Maybe there's a local club or FLGS that isn't completely hung up on GW (they're getting more common, you know); especially excellent clubs like Eilif's or Auldgrump's that are open to KoW or similar, or great stores like Mikhaila's*, or somewhere you can rent table time even if there are no products you 'need'. (But heck, if you're playing in some version of the Warhammer background, and the shop stocks some Age of Sigmar minis you like the look of, and given that these open rulesets don't demand 40- and sometimes not even 20-strong units to play...) Maybe you could start your own club. Maybe not. I do know that all you really need is a set of minis (done), rules (free or cheap), a second warm body (if there was only some way to meet other gamers in this notoriously solitary hobby of ours, and some widely available and convenient communication network to keep in touch with them...), and a table, kitchen or otherwise. (I've spent most of my gaming hobby hunched over that variety of household furniture. And statistically, one out of every two gamers is unlikely to be homeless.)

- Or, as I suspect, when you say 'support', do you mean living your gaming life in GW's pocket; letting GW do and dictate everything for you; doing (or buying) whatever GW wants, every time GW churns out the same old thing but with worse rules and a bigger price; whether you like it or not, but certainly how GW likes it? Or at the very least going only for the most hyped and marketed games with the biggest, flashiest, crappiest rulebooks, as if this hobby is some miniature Hollywood where the only movies you can watch are the ones with most money thrown at them to make them shiny, like something by Michael Bay, or yet another big budget sequel of an old franchise that adds little but keeps flogging it as something new at full price anyway?

When i say support i mean ease of finding a game. Its much easier to find a game of either old hammer or KoW than any of the others put together. So why would I bother with any of them as replacements when old hammer and kow are good and far easier to find opponents for?

As for labelling me as some sort of gw fanboy you clearly dont know me very well! They are overpriced and over the last several years have been systematically destroying their own game. That doesnt stop the fact that old hammer and KoW are the only valid alternatives as they are both good and easier to find opponents for than all those other listed systems.

Stop moving goalposts, you asked for a list of alternates, Vermis provided you with that list, if you had further criteria you wished to add, you had your opportunity.

If you aren't prepared to put in the groundwork to make one of those alternates work, then that is your decision, but that has nothing to do with the question that was asked and answered in full.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Stop moving goalposts, you asked for a list of alternates, Vermis provided you with that list, if you had further criteria you wished to add, you had your opportunity.

If you aren't prepared to put in the groundwork to make one of those alternates work, then that is your decision, but that has nothing to do with the question that was asked and answered in full.

To be fair, I'd consider viability to be a fairly self-evident quality that someone would want in a game. It's technically possible for him to write his own ruleset from scratch, persuade his gaming group to play it, and eventually build it up on a local level to the point he could always be reasonably sure of finding a game using those rules, but it's not particularly likely and while it's very cool, vintage, and lens-free-thick-rim-specs to put someone down because they just want to go to a place and find a game in which to use their expensive models without having to become a full-time community organiser, that's also a great way to persuade people without the necessary time or inclination to simply stop playing wargames altogether.

The same applies for an existing, widely played game as it does for an obscure one or even a home brew ruleset. If it isn't played in the circles you inhabit, and you need to get it off the ground first.

The conversation went "there's plenty of other games" "yeah, well, name me some!" "Here's a long list of other games" "yeah, well nobody plays those!"

Nobody plays anything until somebody does, it doesn't invalidate their existence.

 Vermis wrote:

Vulcan wrote:
Ah... I play the game because it allows me to maneuver large units.

Plenty like that, that actually concentrate more on maneuvering large units than on the attacks and wounds and saves and rank bonuses of individual minis. ("Amazing facts! Did you know that other systems have infantry blocks that stick around and fight back without needing 'steadfast' and 'step up' rules tacked on?") The number of even just those that let you slot in your WFB minis might surprise you.

Do you have any idea how patronizing that sounds?

That, and because I can actually find people who play WFB, as opposed to (for example) KoW.

Give it time.

I am. Believe me, as soon as something else that appeases my desire to maneuver big blocks becomes big enough to get my local meta going, I'm there. GW has been less than satisfying thus far.

KOW went over like a lead balloon in the local group when I tried to get it going. Sigh.

If you have a handful of players you can probably call on to play you, I can heartily endorse writing your own rules.

I'm doing it with 40K at the moment, and while I harbour little hope of it ever being anything more than a personal exercise, it is deeply satisfying if only to prove to ones self that it is possible to improve on what GW have done, and to have done something other than complain to other people about it.

...we're going to need to stay on topic in here now, please!

Thanks!

I'd rather not go into detail because there are people's jobs involved, but the sales staff here in the US has told independent retailers that all current army books would be defunct following Age of Sigmar and that they would not longer be supported in their current state.

I could not find out if this meant model lines would be discontinued too, but my understanding is that Age of Sigmar would be a ruleset intended for skirmish sized games that DOES contain rules for every current army. HOWEVER, it is not GWs intention to support some armies beyond AoS.

I don't know which armies will get new books and which wont, but this store owner was strongly advised not to order replacement stock for Lizardmen, Wood Elves and Tomb Kings -- those were the only ones I was told.

Wood Elves and Lizardmen just got those new big kits (I think last year?), it'd be crazy to think that they'd just drop them! The wood elves have always been one of the most attractive of the line, I thought, too... but maybe also one of the least protectable from an IP perspective? Since they're extremely Tolkien-esque.

I remember people commenting before they were updated that they might be one of the lesser selling lines, but I find that hard to believe given the beautiful models...

...this post not biased at all given that I was a wood elf player (actually all forest spirits, but still!).

Thanks for passing that on, Auswin!

 RiTides wrote:
Wood Elves and Lizardmen just got those new big kits (I think last year?), it'd be crazy to think that they'd just drop them! The wood elves have always been one of the most attractive of the line, I thought, too... but maybe also one of the least protectable from an IP perspective? Since they're extremely Tolkien-esque.

I remember people commenting before they were updated that they might be one of the lesser selling lines, but I find that hard to believe given the beautiful models...

...this post not biased at all given that I was a wood elf player (actually all forest spirits, but still!).

Thanks for passing that on, Auswin!

Lizards especially has never made sense to me. I'd think it would be one of their most-protectable IPs. This is pure speculation on my part, but I wonder if it's because we'll see an aesthetic shift (as has been rumored before). All three armies I noted would likely need the most work to pull them into a more modern setting than other forces.

Maybe the Lizardmen and Wood Elves range will become the Exodites in 40k. Couple of upgrade sprues and some reboxing...