Age of Sigmar - Slaanesh Replaced? plus big book, stormcast archers, dismounted celestan

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**streamdragon**

porkuslime wrote:
Waht..

Prosecutors don't get a bonus versus Chapterhouse?

/golfclap

Wonderwolf wrote:
streamdragon wrote:

10 Warriors of Chaos = 1 Warscroll

10 goblins = 1 Warscroll

Balance!

Not quite.

1 Warscroll = 10+ (no upper limit) Warriors of Chaos.
1 Warscroll = 10+ (no upper limit) Goblins.

Check the post I quoted:

- Warscrolls with more than 10 models counts as an additional warscroll for every 10 models above 10.

That was offered as "balance" for balancing Warscrolls, because Warscrolls are innately ... I don't want to say unbalanced, because that implies an attempt at balance that failed. Warscrolls are "balanceless". Using "Number of Warscrolls" doesn't work since 1 Goblin Warrior is a Warscroll and 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 Stormtalon Chainyankers is a Warscroll.

Warscrolls aren't FoC slots; they're unit descriptions.

**Prestor Jon**

Boss Salvage wrote:
RoninXiC wrote:"comp"?
Make it functional. MAKE IT WORK?!
For those who haven't been playing WHFB during 8E, we learned a long time ago that the game needed some limitations placed on it to make it functional in a competitive sense. First thing to go was random terrain, then it was restrictions of various severity, and here at the end we've sort of settled into ETC (restrictions + house rules in regards to terrain LOS and the magic phase, mostly) and Swedish comp.

pretre wrote:I think the Swedish thing mentioned a bit back is probably most likely.
In Swedish comp, you can make an army out of whatever is legal to your army (so in WHAOS that's I guess everything) up to a decided points level, but everything you take has a price in points associated with it. These points are determined based on the effectiveness of troops and options and synergies in the game itself, so more effective things (which in an unrestricted meta hit the table with unfortunate regularity) cost more points and less effective things cost less. Once you've got a big tally of the points your choices cost, you subtract that from 300 and divide by 10, giving you a Swedish comp score vaguely from 0-30, though it's possible to go negative and impossible to stay at 30.

From there, an event can do stuff like declare only armies of X or higher points can play, give bonus victory points for softer (higher score) armies fighting harder ones, and so on. Swedish comp can be another set of restrictions (with the X points min thing), but also a true comp score, which I know is a dirty word to probably every 40k player journeying into these previously-square-based lands.

To adapt Swedish we'll need to do a lot of grinding to get good Swe points associated with stuff, but given GW's track record making armies I'm sure Obvious Things will arise very quickly. The real issue is going to be dictating what a competitive army size is (by number of warscrolls I guess), and then restricting the pool of units one army can be drawn from, at the least to one realm or faction or whatever.

- Salvage

Before you good even begin playtesting games to develop point costs for Swedish comp you would first have to determine unit sizes for every non character/monster unit. All the warscrolls we've seen for multi-model units from the AoS set have no model limit for unit size. If a given warscroll/unit can have anywhere from 2 to 100+ models then how do you choose a unit size to playtest and award points? If you have to essentially redesign the entire game in order to comp it, your time is better spent just picking a different game to play.

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

Here's a question I've not seen answered that may be relevant

has anybody seen anywhere that each MODEL gets an attack or attacks?

or is it per unit specified on the warscroll

(which would mean a unit of umpteen hundred celestials would be no better than one of 3, with the extra minis merely being bling)

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

TheAuldGrump wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
The thing that surprises me is people's reaction to unbound being in this game. 40k has unbound, it sold reasonably well, why wouldn't GW transfer that over to fantasy.

there are also a lot of folks that loathe Unbound.

For me, Unbound was the straw that broke the camel's back - and why, after collecting Dark Angels since 1st edition 40K, I finally sold them off.

And if what I am seeing locally is true elsewhere... it is why a lot of folks dropped the game at the same time.

At least for Fantasy, there are games with decent rules that the figures can be used with - 40K is not as well covered. (Warpath is fun, but it is in no way in a position to take over people's 40K collections.)

A lot of local folks gave up on Warhammer with the most recent edition, as well, moving en masse to Kings of War.

I really do not see Age of Sigmar reversing the situation. I think Warhammer is done.

And, yes, you really are one of the few people that I have heard say anything nice about Dreadfleet. (Well, aside from the
figures - I have seen few if any complaints about the minis; it is the rules that made people give it a big thumbs down. The figures are fine.)

The Auld Grump

I love dreadfleet. I'm not ashamed to admit it! They can have my copy of Dreadfleet when they prise it from my cold, dead hands!!

I think the new version of Spacehulk was GW's highwater mark for me - awesome game, but I do like moving the ships around in Dreadfleet.

Anyway, back OT.

A lot of people are saying that the community will fix AOS. It shouldn't have to be this way. When I buy a brand new car, I don't expect to have to purchase a steering wheel or an engine from somebody else.

**docdoom77**

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Here's a question I've not seen answered that may be relevant

has anybody seen anywhere that each MODEL gets an attack or attacks?

or is it per unit specified on the warscroll

(which would mean a unit of umpteen hundred celestials would be no better than one of 3, with the extra minis merely being bling)

Since the champions all get extra attacks, it's pretty safe to say each model gets to attack separately. Actually the attack rules are by model, range being measured (yes for melee attacks) from a model.

**lord_blackfang**

Trying to fix this isn't worth the effort. Either GW will do it or it will die, whatever.

What I want to know is, what fantasy thing can I use the winged guys for as proxies? I really like those models. So far I've heard Basilean Angels in KoW. Any other options? (first person to say Assault Marines gets buried in the woods behind my house)

**Chopxsticks**

judgedoug wrote:
Chopxsticks wrote:
pretre wrote:
Wonderwolf wrote:
Fair enough with the 3". But the shooting bugs me (maybe it's the 40K conditioning).

So that Archer is face-to-face with a crazed Khorne ~~Berzerker~~ Blood Warrior, but quietly takes his Bow, shoots an arrow at the Bloodletters over yonder, before getting back to fighting the Blood Warrior?

On the other hand, if there's a bunch of khorne dudes right in front of you, you're gonna shoot them with your bows before getting cut down and keep shooting until you are.

I agree, adds to the strategy. Do you sacrifice your bowmen to shoot the bloodletters moving in on a more valuable unit knowing the Blood warriors are going to destroy them if the bowmen dont shoot them first?? Options! I like it.

Or just field ten thousand bowmen models. Or more!

What does that even mean? I think your responding to the wrong conversation

**namiel**

lord_blackfang wrote:
Trying to fix this isn't worth the effort. Either GW will do it or it will die, whatever.

What I want to know is, what fantasy thing can I use the winged guys for as proxies? I really like those models. So far I've heard Basilean Angels in KoW. Any other options? (first person to say Assault Marines gets buried in the woods behind my house)

jump marines?

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

I'm looking at the warscrolls closely, but I don't see anything about how many models are in a scroll...

For all I know, those stones lying on the ground could be part of the unit

**docdoom77**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I'm looking at the warscrolls closely, but I don't see anything about how many models are in a scroll...

For all I know, those stones lying on the ground could be part of the unit

It says in the unit description. The Khorne guys can consist of "any number of models"

**boredbeard**

I hope That I am not late. I couldn't see any "full set here".

...have a look here Guys:

http://grotorderly.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/warhammer-age-of-sigmar-box.html

Cheers!

/ed: Rules.

Spoiler:

**Sikil**

namiel wrote:
lord_blackfang wrote:
Trying to fix this isn't worth the effort. Either GW will do it or it will die, whatever.

What I want to know is, what fantasy thing can I use the winged guys for as proxies? I really like those models. So far I've heard Basilean Angels in KoW. Any other options? (first person to say Assault Marines gets buried in the woods behind my house)

jump marines?

Exalted for the lols!

**streamdragon**

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:Here's a question I've not seen answered that may be relevant

has anybody seen anywhere that each MODEL gets an attack or attacks?

or is it per unit specified on the warscroll

(which would mean a unit of umpteen hundred celestials would be no better than one of 3, with the extra minis merely being bling)

It's by model according to the "rulebook". Each model gets to pile in and make its attacks.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:I'm looking at the warscrolls closely, but I don't see anything about how many models are in a scroll...

For all I know, those stones lying on the ground could be part of the unit

It's in the Description section. "X is 1 model with Y weapons riding a Z". "A unit of q is any number of models. They are armed with r."

**warboss**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I was under the impression that 40k was propping up the whole company, and if that starts to sink, GW will be looking for a parachute.

While I do understand what you actually mean, I suspect your post is a bit ironically prophetic. I could see GW's response to a shinking ship be to design a parachute despite the at best uselessness or at worst increased risk of drowning that would actually cause (similar to the "unbound" solution to a "problem" that nobody but GW thought existed).

**angelofvengeance**

Cheers boredbeard for the decent pics!

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

I see the unit number know, thanks. Can't believe I missed

But in my defence, I am drinking (and who can blame me

)

The longer this thread goes on, the worse I'll probably get, so I may bail out soon before I make a complete ass of myself

Back OT

If there's no upper limit on a unit, that's just...crazy

**Boss Salvage**

Prestor Jon wrote:
Before you good even begin playtesting games to develop point costs for Swedish comp you would first have to determine unit sizes for every non character/monster unit. All the warscrolls we've seen for multi-model units from the AoS set have no model limit for unit size. If a given warscroll/unit can have anywhere from 2 to 100+ models then how do you choose a unit size to playtest and award points? If you have to essentially redesign the entire game in order to comp it, your time is better spent just picking a different game to play.

The final 8E Swedish Comp pack lives here. If you have a look, you'll see that units acquire Swe points based on their size - once they pass outside of the final bracket (so like "35+") you take a hit per model added, not just a range of models.

In other words, naw, it's mostly ok already. Time will tell what a unit of 100 Things does vs a unit of 20 Things - in 8E size certainly mattered, but only to an extent. Oh, and I've played almost the entirety of 8E under tournament-imposed unit caps (either 450 points or 60 models), so no stranger to size control

EDIT

Two examples related to stuff people have been shouting in here:

Skullcrushers of Khorne
3 -24
4 -34
5 -44
6 -55
Each model in the unit after 6 -15
2nd unit -5 (-10 if more than 6 Skullcrushers in the army)

So a unit of 15 8E Skullcrushers kicks you down to a comp score of 11. You're not fielding much else besides those if you need to hit 10.

Peasant Bowmen
10-13 -2
14-18 -2
19-23 -3
24-28 -4
29 -5
Each model in the unit after 35 -1

Flipside, a massive unit of 224 8E Bret Bowmen sets you back to a comp score of 10. A far cry from the 1000 archers cited, and no idea how that storm of arrows matches up against the 'Crushers - in 8E though my moneys on the juggers, but in 8E both 'armies' are illegal, due to necessity of taking 1 hero + 3 units. One can assume an event could dictate minimums as well, warscrolls or whatever.

Anyway, numbers and balance and comp and things.

- Salvage

**boredbeard**

@angelofvengeance: ...100% credits to Grot Orderly, Sir.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

warboss wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I was under the impression that 40k was propping up the whole company, and if that starts to sink, GW will be looking for a parachute.

While I do understand what you actually mean, I suspect your post is a bit ironically prophetic. I could see GW's response to a shinking ship be to design a parachute despite the at best uselessness or at worst increased risk of drowning that would actually cause (similar to the "unbound" solution to a "problem" that nobody but GW thought existed).

Sadly, all this could have been avoided. I've never designed a game before in my life, but even I couldn't feth things up this bad.

If this starter set tanks, and the evidence suggests it will, then...

I've been playing warhammer fantasy for twenty odd years...

**agnosto**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I see the unit number know, thanks. Can't believe I missed

But in my defence, I am drinking (and who can blame me )

The longer this thread goes on, the worse I'll probably get, so I may bail out soon before I make a complete ass of myself

Back OT

If there's no upper limit on a unit, that's just...crazy

Welcome to the Age of Suckmar

**boredbeard**

Check: https://twitter.com/Lady_Atia

Lots of info

**pretre**

boredbeard wrote:
@angelofvengeance: ...100% credits to Grot Orderly, Sir.

Well, them and the guys who posted it 5 pages back.

**TheAuldGrump**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
TheAuldGrump wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
The thing that surprises me is people's reaction to unbound being in this game. 40k has unbound, it sold reasonably well, why wouldn't GW transfer that over to fantasy.

there are also a lot of folks that loathe Unbound.

For me, Unbound was the straw that broke the camel's back - and why, after collecting Dark Angels since 1st edition 40K, I finally sold them off.

And if what I am seeing locally is true elsewhere... it is why a lot of folks dropped the game at the same time.

At least for Fantasy, there are games with decent rules that the figures can be used with - 40K is not as well covered. (Warpath is fun, but it is in no way in a position to take over people's 40K collections.)

A lot of local folks gave up on Warhammer with the most recent edition, as well, moving en masse to Kings of War.

I really do not see Age of Sigmar reversing the situation. I think Warhammer is done.

And, yes, you really are one of the few people that I have heard say anything nice about Dreadfleet. (Well, aside from the
figures - I have seen few if any complaints about the minis; it is the rules that made people give it a big thumbs down. The figures are fine.)

The Auld Grump

I love dreadfleet. I'm not ashamed to admit it! They can have my copy of Dreadfleet when they prise it from my cold, dead hands!!

I think the new version of Spacehulk was GW's highwater mark for me - awesome game, but I do like moving the ships around in Dreadfleet.

Anyway, back OT.

A lot of people are saying that the community will fix AOS. It shouldn't have to be this way. When I buy a brand new car, I don't expect to have to purchase a steering wheel or an engine from somebody else.

I am glad that you like Dreadfleet - though I wish that I had an alternate game to suggest in its place. (I used to play Wooden Ships and Iron Men... I like my rules a bit... less random than Dreadfleet.)

I do not know if you ever look at Jake Thornton's Blog - but he was working on rebalancing the game at one point.

I hope you managed to grab a few copies before GW scuttled the ship.

Back to back on topic - I agree, in regards to folks having to work on balancing the game themselves being... kind of hard to understand. 'We can't balance rules, so we aren't gonna try', maybe?

The Auld Grump

**Accolade**

Hulksmash wrote:
Thud wrote:
TL;DR: I work at the studio, AoS is controversial, Jervis has a Space Marine hat as a paperweight, everything will become awesome, we totally tried to make an awesome game.

....without a balancing mechanic....

Dangit, now I've gotten bitter and cynical!

Prepare to start getting personally insulted for not towing the line!!

**boredbeard**

pretre wrote:
boredbeard wrote:
@angelofvengeance: ...100% credits to Grot Orderly, Sir.

Well, them and the guys who posted it 5 pages back.

Apologies for spam, Dakkanauts.

**Manchu**

A model's base isn't considered a part of the model -- it's just there to help the model stand up -- so don't include it when measuring distances.

So how do you measure for movement in this game?

**RoninXiC**

Pick ANY part of the mini. Meassure from there.

**NAVARRO**

Lets see what the 10th brings in then.

**JohnHwangDD**

TheAuldGrump wrote:
I am glad that you like Dreadfleet - though I wish that I had an alternate game to suggest in its place. (I used to play Wooden Ships and Iron Men... I like my rules a bit... less random than Dreadfleet.)

Pirates of the Spanish Main.

That's a great little tactical game there.

**gradam01**

You could try to do multi-unit battle scrolls by wounds per model. 1 wound can go up to 20 models, 2 wounds up to 10, and 3 wounds up to 5. We'll have to see the rest of the battle scrolls, but you may be able to balance it this way.